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Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 1 post(s) |

Andy Landen
Air Red Alliance
88
|
Posted - 2013.03.07 03:18:00 -
[1] - Quote
CCP has a consistent theme about balancing the risk and effort to rewards, but AFK Cloaking slaps that approach hard in the face.
Minimal skills allows a character to slip into a system with a cloaky frigate and AFK camp the system. The point of this post is NOT to focus on the people being camped, but on the high rewards, zero risk, and zero effort of the AFK cloaky pilot.
Zero threat: A cloaked ship may not be scanned, or otherwise affected until the position is located to within 2500m. The threat to an AFK cloaky ship is zero.
Zero effort: The cost of a T1 frigate hull is close to 0. The amount of interaction required with a cloaked ship is zero. The cost of a cloak module is a couple of million ISK. The cost of time and skill books to train cloaking and other basic skills is around a couple of days. The effort required to AFK cloak is essentially zero.
High rewards: The existence of the cyno field generator brings the threat of a limitless enemy fleet in an instant. Lacking a limit to the number of ships which may jump to the cyno generator, the threat approaches infinity. The threat on the system from an AFK red cloaky seriously escalates the risk of normal operations, including travel, pve and mining, and even pvp. The reward is a substantial effect on enemy operations due to a limitless threat which cannot be neutralized.
Proposal #1: Let local reflect whether a pilot is cloaked or not, and how long they have been cloaked. This does not affect whs, obviously. Proposal #2: When a cloak is activated, create a session timer of 1 minute for the activation of a cyno field generator. The idea is that a cloaked ship will present zero threat of lighting a cyno for at least 1 minute. This obviously slightly affects cloaky cyno alts activities. Proposal #3: Reserved for Your thoughts. |

Sura Sadiva
Entropic Tactical Crew
337
|
Posted - 2013.03.07 03:24:00 -
[2] - Quote
you forget the part about fuel requirement to keep the cloak running and special, more expansive, scanning probes able to detect if a player is watching youporn.
edit: oh, and also the giant invulnerability bubble generator to anchor when you have sov in the system |

Omnathious Deninard
Extrinsic Operations
603
|
Posted - 2013.03.07 03:38:00 -
[3] - Quote
Oh goodness not this crap again, please use the search function. Oh and NO Ideas For Drone Improvement Updated 11/30/12Catastrophic Uprising is Recruiting |

DataRunner Attor
Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic
2
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Posted - 2013.03.07 03:50:00 -
[4] - Quote
Once again, people constantly focus on the solution and not the problem. Cloaking is balanced cause it broken, it balanced cause Local itself is broken as well, if you wish to fix cloak, you need to fix local first. |

Banana1x
The Scope Gallente Federation
4
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Posted - 2013.03.07 04:04:00 -
[5] - Quote
Can someone enlighten me as to why showing cloaked ships on combat scanners is a bad idea? I hate using Local as an intel source and it should be done away with (as it is in WH's).
I think you should be able to scan them down, warp in and use an EMP module of some sort that disables all electronic warfare/cloaking within 20k for a short period of time (allied and enemy).
If you're in a cloaked ship, you should be on the move.
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Omnathious Deninard
Extrinsic Operations
603
|
Posted - 2013.03.07 04:15:00 -
[6] - Quote
Banana1x wrote:Can someone enlighten me as to why showing cloaked ships on combat scanners is a bad idea? I hate using Local as an intel source and it should be done away with (as it is in WH's).
I think you should be able to scan them down, warp in and use an EMP module of some sort that disables all electronic warfare/cloaking within 20k for a short period of time (allied and enemy).
If you're in a cloaked ship, you should be on the move.
And the whole basis behind why would idea might be a feasible one is you said the magic words "No Local" Ideas For Drone Improvement Updated 11/30/12Catastrophic Uprising is Recruiting |

Drake Doe
SVER True Blood Unclaimed.
60
|
Posted - 2013.03.07 04:30:00 -
[7] - Quote
Zero rewards, a tiny amount of risk is more accurate |

Sol Weinstein
Lunatic Warfare Federation
89
|
Posted - 2013.03.07 04:35:00 -
[8] - Quote
If you think "Local is broken", then WHs are that way... -------->
Don't like the lifestyle, then go to WHs. Seriously. And shut up about this "intel" thing. Go to WHs.
Go to WHs.
Go to WHs.
Local is not broken. Don't want to show on the channel? Then don't enter the system. Period.
Go to WHs and stop crying.
Thank you.
The Savior of EVE https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=205546&find=unread |

Andy Landen
Air Red Alliance
88
|
Posted - 2013.03.07 05:58:00 -
[9] - Quote
Let's bring this thread back on track. We are assuming that both "local" and the cloaking mechanic are balanced and working fine. Please look to the proposals outlined in the OP or submit your own ideas. |

Sol Weinstein
Lunatic Warfare Federation
90
|
Posted - 2013.03.07 06:01:00 -
[10] - Quote
Andy Landen wrote:Let's bring this thread back on track. We are assuming that both "local" and the cloaking mechanic are balanced and working fine. Please look to the proposals outlined in the OP or submit your own ideas.
Fine. You must spend Skill Points, the ONLY thing in the game that cannot be traded or bought, to use it. How is this "zero risk" ?
Discuss.
Thank you.
The Savior of EVE https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=205546&find=unread |
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Akuyaku
Brave Newbies Inc.
0
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Posted - 2013.03.07 06:06:00 -
[11] - Quote
Andy Landen wrote: "local" and the cloaking mechanic are balanced and working fine. |

Andy Landen
Air Red Alliance
88
|
Posted - 2013.03.07 06:09:00 -
[12] - Quote
Akuyaku wrote:Andy Landen wrote: "local" and the cloaking mechanic are balanced and working fine. .. but AFK cloaking plus cyno ability bring lots of reward with zero effort or risk. |

Akuyaku
Brave Newbies Inc.
0
|
Posted - 2013.03.07 06:16:00 -
[13] - Quote
Andy Landen wrote:Akuyaku wrote:Andy Landen wrote: "local" and the cloaking mechanic are balanced and working fine. .. but AFK cloaking plus cyno ability bring lots of reward with zero effort or risk. That's a separate issue. |

Andy Landen
Air Red Alliance
88
|
Posted - 2013.03.07 06:18:00 -
[14] - Quote
Akuyaku wrote:Andy Landen wrote:Akuyaku wrote:Andy Landen wrote: "local" and the cloaking mechanic are balanced and working fine. .. but AFK cloaking plus cyno ability bring lots of reward with zero effort or risk. That's a separate issue. That is the subject of this thread. |

Banana1x
The Scope Gallente Federation
4
|
Posted - 2013.03.07 06:36:00 -
[15] - Quote
Omnathious Deninard wrote: And the whole basis behind why would idea might be a feasible one is you said the magic words "No Local"
I'm against local being used for intel gathering purposes because it's supposed to be for comms, that's not the same as saying I want this magical class of ship that's invulnerable to every scanning technique we have.
I have a cloaky ship and I can freely move about lowsec, null and WH space without a care in the world. I think that needs a counter.
I see no point in having a live local anywhere, it should work like it does in WH space everywhere. If you want to see whats in a system use your D-Scan. If you wanna be doubly sure and check for cloaks, you need to get out the combat scanner. |

Anthar Thebess
REPUBLIKA ORLA C0VEN
63
|
Posted - 2013.03.07 07:28:00 -
[16] - Quote
Yes you are right we have to BOST Campers. Let reduce the time requirements for covert cyno, and covert ops cloak to lvl 1. Additionally let allow to mount covert ops cyno to any ship.
This way camping will receive nice boost , and many more ratting ships will die. What benefits of this move we will have ? : - campers happy ( they got their pray) - ccp happy ( bigger isk sink, as already round blue null hits the eve economy) - industrials happy ( more ships to be build) - miners happy ( more minerals needed )
So please CCP boost campers.
|

Caitlyn Tufy
Bene Gesserit ChapterHouse Sanctuary Pact
203
|
Posted - 2013.03.07 07:58:00 -
[17] - Quote
Andy Landen wrote:Edit (response to posts below): This post is not about local. Local is fine and has nothing to do with the zero risk of AFK cloaking. Also, this post is not about the cloaking device itself. It is about the zero effort of AFK cloaking camping a system. Adding a fuel requirement does not address the zero effort issue. The cloaking mechanic is just fine for most activities. The only issue is the zero effort required to afk cloak for 1-23 hours in a single system, combined with the imminent cyno threat.
On the contrary, it has everything to do with local. Since null has a perfect information network thanks to local, the moment someone enters the system (or even before that) a player can dock up, thereby eliminating a vast majority of the threat, provided the player took necessary precautions. An AFK cloaker reintroduces risk - he may be active or he may be not, you'll never know. It is up to you to take the risk or not.
That said, I do agree with the elimination of afk cloaking, provided we also eliminate the absolutely perfect information network provided by Local - both are anomalies that should not exist in their current form. |

TheSkeptic
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
137
|
Posted - 2013.03.07 08:02:00 -
[18] - Quote
Drake Doe wrote:Zero rewards, a tiny amount of risk is more accurate
^^ Nailed it. ... |

Jint Hikaru
OffWorld Exploration Inc
512
|
Posted - 2013.03.07 09:40:00 -
[19] - Quote
Andy Landen wrote:Let's bring this thread back on track. We are assuming that both "local" and the cloaking mechanic are balanced and working fine. Please look to the proposals outlined in the OP or submit your own ideas.
Ok, you want to get the thread back on track..... lets look at the thread subject.
AFK Cloaking Camping High Rewards, Zero Risk Zero Effort
You then go on to whine about cyno generators.
Please tell me how an AFK pilot lights a Cyno?
Once again, another totally obvious nerf cloaks so I can be safe in my ZeroSec system post, pretending to be an AFK is bad M'kay, idea.
Please continue your operations in HiSec, or grow a pair!
Jint Hikaru - Miner / Salvager / Explorer / SpaceBum In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move. |

Dave Stark
1916
|
Posted - 2013.03.07 10:07:00 -
[20] - Quote
Jint Hikaru wrote:Please tell me how an AFK pilot lights a Cyno?
i was about to post this very same question. you're tired, stop posting. |
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TheGunslinger42
All Web Investigations
1036
|
Posted - 2013.03.07 10:26:00 -
[21] - Quote
This thread is full of lies and butthurt nullbear tears.
Here's the simple truth about it: Local is broken, it provides 100% accurate, instant, free intel on how many / who is in your system.
As a result of this, any bears and other baddies can instantly warp away literally the second someone appears in local. This is bad.
As a counter, people have started parking themselves in systems and leaving themselves there, as a last ditch effort to try and make the intel provided by local be slightly less perfect.
Cloaks and being afk are absolutely not broken at all, they're not "zero risk", they're not "high reward", they're a pretty pisspoor mechanic that pushes the safety in nullsec reported by local from 100% down to maybe 90%. That's not good enough for the disgusting, entitled carebears who demand 100% safety in arguably the most dangerous part of EVE though, hence we get threads like this. |

TheGunslinger42
All Web Investigations
1036
|
Posted - 2013.03.07 10:30:00 -
[22] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:Jint Hikaru wrote:Please tell me how an AFK pilot lights a Cyno? i was about to post this very same question.
Also a very valid point. AFK Cloaking has zero risk, zero reward, zero anythings. The moment you say "a ha! But he can decloak and shoot me! Or light a cyno!" then you're not talking about afk cloaking. You're talking about cloaking in general, in in such instances there is 'reward' (killing a ship or bringing in a fleet), but also a big risk (you become vulnerable yourself - extremely so considering the weak capabilities of ships which can cloak) |

TheSkeptic
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
137
|
Posted - 2013.03.07 10:48:00 -
[23] - Quote
Andy Landen wrote:T1 frig and cloak, update clone, rinse and repeat.
Why are you afraid of a T1 frig with a cloak anyway? even if he is fitted with a cyno you're going to see him on d-scan long before he warps to you and lights it anyway.
... |

Sura Sadiva
Entropic Tactical Crew
337
|
Posted - 2013.03.07 11:14:00 -
[24] - Quote
TheSkeptic wrote:Andy Landen wrote:T1 frig and cloak, update clone, rinse and repeat. Why are you afraid of a T1 frig with a cloak anyway? even if he is fitted with a cyno you're going to see him on d-scan long before he warps to you and lights it anyway.
They think a T1 frigate can summon fleets in there, thy mistake cyno, cover cyno, bridges....
They die and do not realize what happened: they wake up dazed in their medical clone and the only thing they remember is some unusual neutral player in local in the hours before the event. So, since they die, must be soemething wrong, unbalanced and unfair (deing is always "unfair" of course). And problem must be related to that weird presence in local.
If you browsethe forum for similar thread there're some where this missunderstanding is clear. For instance:
- there's a thread where is obvious as the poster clearly don't get the difference between probes and d-scan, and seems to think people use probes to catch them ratting in belt.
- and another thread where someone ask to CCP to flag blue their own icon in local, cause they get scared "omg a neutral!" and only later the realize "oooh it's not a neutral it's me".
|

Chal0ner
EntroPrelatial Industria EntroPraetorian Aegis
41
|
Posted - 2013.03.07 11:33:00 -
[25] - Quote
Andy Landen wrote: Proposal #1: Let local reflect whether a pilot is cloaked or not, and how long they have been cloaked. This does not affect whs, obviously. Proposal #2: When a cloak is activated, create a session timer of 1 minute for the activation of a cyno field generator. The idea is that a cloaked ship will present zero threat of lighting a cyno for at least 1 minute. This obviously slightly affects cloaky cyno alts activities. Proposal #3: Simple mini-game keeps the cloak from generating a scannable subspace signature. Multiple combat scans reveals the travel vector to your adversary.
Edit (response to posts below): This post is not about local. Local is fine and has nothing to do with the zero risk of AFK cloaking. Also, this post is not about the cloaking device itself. It is about the zero effort of AFK cloaking camping a system. Adding a fuel requirement does not address the zero effort issue. The cloaking mechanic is just fine for most activities. The only issue is the zero effort required to afk cloak for 1-23 hours in a single system, combined with the imminent cyno threat.
As far as I understand, your proposal has nothing or very little to do with effort/risk issues.
#1: "Any" local resident can tell everyone else how long you've been in system. #2: This seems completely pointless to me. A minute? Hostile enters system, and all ratters that are not afk go hide. They hide for more than a minute to see if you are active or not. If not active, you are booked as "residential cloaky ***" and #1 is valid. #3: Umm, fuel for cloaks have been mentioned countless times are is a much cleaner solution.
EDIT: #1: Unless of course you refer to systems with no local, in which case your proposal would be counter to systems with no local. |

Lillith Sakata
Deus Fides Empire Curatores Veritatis Alliance
3
|
Posted - 2013.03.07 12:03:00 -
[26] - Quote
Andy Landen wrote:Let's bring this thread back on track. We are assuming that both "local" and the cloaking mechanic are balanced and working fine. Please look to the proposals outlined in the OP or submit your own ideas.
Well, good luck with the thread here mate. My post got completely derailed by these mutlibox camping tools that derail threads with the constant drone of whining about how its balanced because of 0 interaction -- oh wait, unless its on the 'local' channel. F'n nitwits that can't make their own thread and get pounded themselves, since the problem isn't Local, its these idiots that camp systems or whole damn constellations with their 4+ multibox toon accounts. My post was about how broken I thought it was when I got the skills trained up on my alt and saw just how absolutely easy it was to utterly shut down a system, or 3, despite camps, people actively looking for me, etc.
These people will continuously derail any thread that addresses the obviously broken cloaking system. And yeah, you nailed it on the heads when you said 0 risk.
And as for the search function... meh. Doesn't really matter since most of the threads you'll find (mine included) are completely sidetracked by people whining about local (and I agree with the guy above "GO TO WH SPACE"), and the poster of each thread yelling at these idiots to make their own thread specifically about 'no local'.
I've gone as far as ignoring most of the people that post about no local. I got tired of yelling at em. |

Hakan MacTrew
Caledonian Light Industries Sick N' Twisted
386
|
Posted - 2013.03.07 12:27:00 -
[27] - Quote
I can't say I have ever heard of someone who is AFK lighting a cyno.
The real problem is that people are scared. I admit that I spend most of my time in High Sec, but I do have other characters that I fly around low and null with and I hit wormholes fairly often. Ionly fly what I can afford to replace. Do I stop what I am doing because someone comes into local? No, I carry on and I make sure I take measures that will give me a chance to counter whatever action whoever else is in local chose to make.
One of my alts is out in Stain right now. I take out belt rats in systems with 30+ people in and guess what, I don't care. I have had a few interesting tangles, lost a couple of ships, killed one or two as well. What I have never had, at any point in the last 6 months, is any instance where an AFK player has interacted with anything in any way.
I really feel that if people are not willing to risk encountering someone else while they are in null, then they obviously have no reason to be in null. Thats my opinion, for whatever it is worth.
What exactly is an AFK ship going to do? So someone lights a cyno, safe up when you see it light and wait for the local spike.it's not rocket science. MODULAR DRONES
MORE ORE SHIPS |

Mag's
the united Negative Ten.
14375
|
Posted - 2013.03.07 12:33:00 -
[28] - Quote
Jint Hikaru wrote:Please tell me how an AFK pilot lights a Cyno? This.
If you have an issue with cynos, then make a thread about it. It's a completely separate mechanic from cloaking. Malcanis for CSM 8. Destination SkillQueue:- It's like assuming the lions will ignore you in the savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless. |

Mike Whiite
Cupid Stunts. Casoff
154
|
Posted - 2013.03.07 13:03:00 -
[29] - Quote
Andy Landen wrote:CCP has a consistent theme about balancing the risk and effort to rewards, but AFK Cloaking slaps that approach hard in the face.
Minimal skills allows a character to slip into a system with a cloaky frigate and AFK camp the system. The point of this post is NOT to focus on the people being camped, but on the high rewards, zero risk, and zero effort of the AFK cloaky pilot. We will assume that both "local" and the cloaking mechanic are both balanced.
Zero threat: A cloaked ship may not be scanned, or otherwise affected until the position is located to within 2500m. The threat to an AFK cloaky ship is zero.
Zero effort: The cost of a T1 frigate hull is close to 0. The amount of interaction required with a cloaked ship is zero. The cost of a cloak module is a couple of million ISK. The cost of time and skill books to train cloaking and other basic skills is around a couple of days. The effort required to AFK cloak is essentially zero.
High rewards: The existence of the cyno field generator brings the threat of a limitless enemy fleet in an instant. Lacking a limit to the number of ships which may jump to the cyno generator, the threat approaches infinity. The threat on the system from an AFK red cloaky seriously escalates the risk of normal operations, including travel, pve and mining, and even pvp. The reward is a substantial effect on enemy operations due to a limitless threat which cannot be neutralized.
Hmm before we go on lets remove the untruths and false assumptions.
Zero threat -> that playen didn't apear out of thin air, it came to that system, thats not without risks, once in systems the pilot is rather hard to get that is true, wether it is AFK or not doesn't realy matter in this case.
Zero Effort -> again the specific notion of being AFK training time doesn't differ by being or not being at your keyboard (so you state cloaking t1 vessles require all but no effort, you make an error here but I'll come back to that later.)
High Rewards:
Here you're obviouly are talking about Covert-ops cyno's, which don't fit on T1 ships, so have little to do with point 2. AFK players can't light a cyno.
The Effect you discribe doesn't escalate the risk on travel and the ascalation of Risk on PvP is hillarious.
So what do we have left:
The non blue person in the ship that +Ąs cloaked, and persumably is away from keyboard now and then, could have the ablility to light a covert opps Cyno, which could attack a ship that is in my souv space and there or I stay in my station, please CCP Help me, you're my only hope!
and if you remove all the assumptions: The non blue person in a ship that is cloaked keeps me in my station, please CCP Help me you're my only hope, because he might be dangerous.
You know it is way funnier to enlist in a alliance and hotdrop you alt corp budies inside the big blue people system, makes the blue buddies just as blind as all the people outside souv space, who aren't complaining.
|

Lillith Sakata
Deus Fides Empire Curatores Veritatis Alliance
3
|
Posted - 2013.03.07 13:49:00 -
[30] - Quote
Hakan MacTrew wrote:I can't say I have ever heard of someone who is AFK lighting a cyno.
The real problem is that people are scared. I admit that I spend most of my time in High Sec, but I do have other characters that I fly around low and null with and I hit wormholes fairly often. Ionly fly what I can afford to replace. Do I stop what I am doing because someone comes into local? No, I carry on and I make sure I take measures that will give me a chance to counter whatever action whoever else is in local chose to make.
One of my alts is out in Stain right now. I take out belt rats in systems with 30+ people in and guess what, I don't care. I have had a few interesting tangles, lost a couple of ships, killed one or two as well. What I have never had, at any point in the last 6 months, is any instance where an AFK player has interacted with anything in any way.
I really feel that if people are not willing to risk encountering someone else while they are in null, then they obviously have no reason to be in null. Thats my opinion, for whatever it is worth.
What exactly is an AFK ship going to do? So someone lights a cyno, safe up when you see it light and wait for the local spike.it's not rocket science.
There is the error in your assumptions. You state that you're a highsec vested player who occasionally goes to nullsec/wh space. Therefore you have no interests in nullsec, other than as a road traveled. You're not taking into account that there are people who live in the space that you're passing through. There are people there that mine, that rat, that manufacture, etc. These people are the ones affected, not the homeless highsec guys that can dock anywhere, don't have to worry much if any about cynos, or bombs, or other day-to-day things that a nullsec player/corp/alliance has to deal with. For a system to be profitable for non-goo uber rich guys, is for them to actively build up the system by ratting and mining.
The biggest issue that people are talking about when they suggest ideas about how to fix the broken cloaking system, is that there is next to no risk involved with cloaky ships. I've yet to lose even one bomber or candle lighter to a gate-camp that wasn't so big that they covered all of the areas so much that I just didn't have room to cloak. Even near-instapoints can't stop a cloaky ship if the pilot has at least two brain cells (one to hit align/warp, the other to hit cloak). Once in system, you can do whatever. Scan down miners or ratters, figure out what they're up to and make a strategy, and depending on risk/reward, drop them or light a cyno, then when they're in their cloaky-killer, stay cloaked, and don't faildrop your friends onto a fight they won't win without too much loss.
I honestly believe that these people that whine are cloaky guys that like their nice sweet easy life. I actually like some competition and risk. It keeps my blood flowing. That is why I came up with the idea I had with probes specifically designed to scan cloaked ships while not making them so bad they would ruin cloaking altogether. After all, i'm one of the people that flys cloaked ships, and lights cynos -- so I don't want to ruin my own ships. |
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