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Orion Wolff
Fukushima Industries Spartan Alliance
0
|
Posted - 2013.03.11 14:18:00 -
[1] - Quote
As a hole rat, I've been working on sniping instrumental sites. The BS sleepers there sometimes alpha strike our little glass cannon BCs, at times up to 250 out. It shouldn't happen but it does and thats what we sign up for in our C5. So I got to thinking: how could we balance this out a bit, and it came to me - a balanced force field ship.
A ship that can be fitted with a mini force field, modded for size and balanced for effectiveness. For instance, one mod would project a force field small but very strong, while a larger field would be weaker. The field would work like typical science fiction shields; ships could move through without problems, and you can target and shoot through them but they protect 100% of objects inside of them up until enough damage has been taken, and then they shut down for core recharge, which could take cap booster type charges and would have a cool down timer. Logistics ships would be able to boost the field strength with a energy emissions mod, or some other type of logi effect.
And the best part, both tanker types wouldn't be able to complain because the skills for this ship and mods would be independent of tanking skills, which is why I called it a force field instead of a shield ship.
Ideas? Maybe we can get some CCP input? |

StoneCold
House of Sparrows
82
|
Posted - 2013.03.11 14:20:00 -
[2] - Quote
No.
We allready have science-fiction types of shield. In fact every ship got one. Aswell as your pod.
Fit your glass cannon BCs less glassy, fixed. Disclaimer: All depicted violent acts relate only (and exclusively) on ingame events. |

Orion Wolff
Fukushima Industries Spartan Alliance
0
|
Posted - 2013.03.11 14:24:00 -
[3] - Quote
StoneCold wrote:No.
We allready have science-fiction types of shield. In fact every ship got one. Aswell as your pod.
Fit your glass cannon BCs less glassy, fixed.
That's a bit closed minded. There's balancing going on to add depth to Eve all the time. Also, it's clear that you don't understand WH life, or glass cannons. |

feihcsiM
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
175
|
Posted - 2013.03.11 14:24:00 -
[4] - Quote
Orion Wolff wrote:As a hole rat, I've been working on sniping instrumental sites. The BS sleepers there sometimes alpha strike our little glass cannon BCs, at times up to 250 out. It shouldn't happen but it does and thats what we sign up for in our C5. So I got to thinking: how could we balance this out a bit
Use BSs.
It's the end of the world as we know it and I feel fine. |

Orion Wolff
Fukushima Industries Spartan Alliance
0
|
Posted - 2013.03.11 14:37:00 -
[5] - Quote
ISK issues, risk in neighboring holes, alpha volleys destroying ships with one hit, not to mention adding some depth and variety. We try to maximize our earnings with the fewest members possible, and there are few BSs that can effectively hit 250 out while having a decent tank. Sleepers hit harder than standard pirates. |

Kodama Ikari
Concordiat Spaceship Samurai
26
|
Posted - 2013.03.11 14:39:00 -
[6] - Quote
Orion Wolff wrote: That's a bit closed minded. There's balancing going on to add depth to Eve all the time. Also, it's clear that you don't understand WH life, or glass cannons.
Its not that new gameplay mechanics are bad, its just that you're suggesting a gimmicky one to solve a non-problem. Pointing this out is not the same as being closed-minded. I may not understand WH life, but there are very few reasons to use t3 snipers over BS snipers when hp is an issue. If you're using attack BC's because of cost or ease of getting the hulls in, then you're just being lazy. Some first-hand PI tips |

Orion Wolff
Fukushima Industries Spartan Alliance
0
|
Posted - 2013.03.11 14:50:00 -
[7] - Quote
So how would it be a waste of time in K space? I don't see how it couldn't be balanced. ASBs and coming up AABs are examples of additions that work, not to mention the addition of a possible mini-dread. They're not needed, but they add depth. If you're just looking for ways to say no, that's being closed minded. |

StoneCold
House of Sparrows
82
|
Posted - 2013.03.11 14:56:00 -
[8] - Quote
Orion Wolff wrote:[...] We try to maximize our earnings with the fewest members possible, [...] Greed is bad. Disclaimer: All depicted violent acts relate only (and exclusively) on ingame events. |

Orion Wolff
Fukushima Industries Spartan Alliance
0
|
Posted - 2013.03.11 14:59:00 -
[9] - Quote
StoneCold wrote:Orion Wolff wrote:[...] We try to maximize our earnings with the fewest members possible, [...] Greed is bad.
I take it you don't bother earning ISK then.
|

StoneCold
House of Sparrows
82
|
Posted - 2013.03.11 15:05:00 -
[10] - Quote
I earn my ISK in a different way. And I-¦m one of those rare ppl who can have "enough" money. My wallet is not a bottomless pit.
I can understand where the "problem" of your group is. But scaled up to whole eve-population it would put (imo) to the market. It shouldn-¦t be easy to earn ISK in C5, that-¦s why you ARE able to generate a nice income there.
If you get a new tool to minimize / lower the risk of a loss you should also get a cut in income. Disclaimer: All depicted violent acts relate only (and exclusively) on ingame events. |

Orion Wolff
Fukushima Industries Spartan Alliance
0
|
Posted - 2013.03.11 15:09:00 -
[11] - Quote
lol @ you thinking anything in C5 could be made easy. |

RavenPaine
RaVeN Alliance
369
|
Posted - 2013.03.11 15:11:00 -
[12] - Quote
You are under the false assumption that CCP wants your ship to stay alive. They do not. |

StoneCold
House of Sparrows
82
|
Posted - 2013.03.11 15:12:00 -
[13] - Quote
You are asking for a new ship that makes your life easier. I put up the theory of "if its easier it should earn you less then before".
Your answer is lol. Well thought. Disclaimer: All depicted violent acts relate only (and exclusively) on ingame events. |

Tiger Armani
Mialto Corp The Last Chancers.
38
|
Posted - 2013.03.11 15:12:00 -
[14] - Quote
Orion Wolff wrote:As a hole rat, I've been working on sniping instrumental sites. The BS sleepers there sometimes alpha strike our little glass cannon BCs, at times up to 250 out. It shouldn't happen but it does and thats what we sign up for in our C5. So I got to thinking: how could we balance this out a bit, and it came to me - a balanced force field ship.
A ship that can be fitted with a mini force field, modded for size and balanced for effectiveness. For instance, one mod would project a force field small but very strong, while a larger field would be weaker. The field would work like typical science fiction shields; ships could move through without problems, and you can target and shoot through them but they protect 100% of objects inside of them up until enough damage has been taken, and then they shut down for core recharge, which could take cap booster type charges and would have a cool down timer. Logistics ships would be able to boost the field strength with a energy emissions mod, or some other type of logi effect.
And the best part, both tanker types wouldn't be able to complain because the skills for this ship and mods would be independent of tanking skills, which is why I called it a force field instead of a shield ship.
Ideas? Maybe we can get some CCP input?
If you can't fleet up 3 x tengus or carrier + 1+ DPS ship to kill those BSs, move to lower class WH |

Orion Wolff
Fukushima Industries Spartan Alliance
0
|
Posted - 2013.03.11 15:12:00 -
[15] - Quote
RavenPaine wrote:You are under the false assumption that CCP wants your ship to stay alive. They do not.
Well that explains tanking, logistics, POS defenses... |

Orion Wolff
Fukushima Industries Spartan Alliance
0
|
Posted - 2013.03.11 15:20:00 -
[16] - Quote
StoneCold wrote:You are asking for a new ship that makes your life easier. I put up the theory of "if its easier it should earn you less then before".
Your answer is lol. Well thought.
I'm asking for balancing ideas from other parts of Eve and so far I've had nothing but bad attitude and judgment. Nothing to do but laugh at this trolley. I appreciate the input on how it can't work, but what's missing is how it could. |

StoneCold
House of Sparrows
82
|
Posted - 2013.03.11 15:22:00 -
[17] - Quote
Some in here told you how it works. You just refuse to listen. And say things like "but, but, but..." Disclaimer: All depicted violent acts relate only (and exclusively) on ingame events. |

Orion Wolff
Fukushima Industries Spartan Alliance
0
|
Posted - 2013.03.11 15:22:00 -
[18] - Quote
Tiger Armani wrote:Orion Wolff wrote:As a hole rat, I've been working on sniping instrumental sites. The BS sleepers there sometimes alpha strike our little glass cannon BCs, at times up to 250 out. It shouldn't happen but it does and thats what we sign up for in our C5. So I got to thinking: how could we balance this out a bit, and it came to me - a balanced force field ship.
A ship that can be fitted with a mini force field, modded for size and balanced for effectiveness. For instance, one mod would project a force field small but very strong, while a larger field would be weaker. The field would work like typical science fiction shields; ships could move through without problems, and you can target and shoot through them but they protect 100% of objects inside of them up until enough damage has been taken, and then they shut down for core recharge, which could take cap booster type charges and would have a cool down timer. Logistics ships would be able to boost the field strength with a energy emissions mod, or some other type of logi effect.
And the best part, both tanker types wouldn't be able to complain because the skills for this ship and mods would be independent of tanking skills, which is why I called it a force field instead of a shield ship.
Ideas? Maybe we can get some CCP input? If you can't fleet up 3 x tengus or carrier + 1+ DPS ship to kill those BSs, move to lower class WH
Sure we can, in our hole. But what about a neighbor? Sometimes people aren't available. This could be a partial solution. It may also work well in nullsec or lowsec, if balanced properly. |

Inkarr Hashur
Sacrificial Lambs The Devil's Warrior Alliance
242
|
Posted - 2013.03.11 15:24:00 -
[19] - Quote
Kodama Ikari wrote:Orion Wolff wrote: That's a bit closed minded. There's balancing going on to add depth to Eve all the time. Also, it's clear that you don't understand WH life, or glass cannons.
Its not that new gameplay mechanics are bad, its just that you're suggesting a gimmicky one to solve a non-problem. Pointing this out is not the same as being closed-minded. I may not understand WH life, but there are very few reasons to use t3 snipers over BS snipers when hp is an issue. If you're using attack BC's because of cost or ease of getting the hulls in, then you're just being lazy.
Do I have to quote this 2 or 3 times? Obviously someone posting it once wasn't enough to end the thread. |

Orion Wolff
Fukushima Industries Spartan Alliance
0
|
Posted - 2013.03.11 15:25:00 -
[20] - Quote
StoneCold wrote:Some in here told you how it works. You just refuse to listen. And say things like "but, but, but..."
Funny. Sounds like you're all doing the same thing. Glass houses, rocks, dude. |

feihcsiM
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
175
|
Posted - 2013.03.11 15:55:00 -
[21] - Quote
Let me clarify my earlier 'Use BSs' comment.
We do double cap ship escalations in all sites in our C6 and its various attached static C5s and to be honest that seems to be where the real money is. In an ideal world to maximise isk we should run just carriers, dreads and loki webs, but we do things a bit differently because like you not everyone can/wants to fly cap ships and the inclusion of everyone in corp activities who wants to join in is always a good thing. As such we run 2 carriers and BSs for dps, usually with a Tengu or two, the odd Drake and a Loki.
I've seen a sleeper BS spawn two-shot through a 70k ehp shield buffer and put a battleship into structure from over 100km away. It mght not be supposed to happen but it does. A BC just can't tank that sort of damage, even with carrier/logi support. You are also limiting your outgoing dps, and hence isk efficiency by using long range BCs with either long range ammo or fighting in deep falloff. Our BSs generally put out ~1k dps each (depending on range/ammo ofc) and we recommend a minimum of about 80k ehp to avoid being alpha'd. You just can't do that efficiently in a sniper BC.
I can see what you are wanting to do in your BCs, and yeah, it's do-able if you are willing to trade it off for questionable isk efficiency and accept a few losses to sleepers here and there. Hell, it's probably even good fun, props for doing it 'outside the box'. It is not, however how I believe the sites were designed to be run or indeed how they were balanced. They seem clearly designed around cap / BS / T3 fleets and glass cannon BCs will always have a bit of a hard time.
(Also if you get jumped a sniper BC fleet can be nuked by a few bombers, a 2 x carrier backed BS fleet - with pvp ships ready in the hanger - can put up a damn good fight) It's the end of the world as we know it and I feel fine. |

Savnire Jacitu
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
98
|
Posted - 2013.03.11 15:56:00 -
[22] - Quote
30 force field ships all working so that one will activate the second another one goes down. Sure, why the **** not. <corrupt> |

Orion Wolff
Fukushima Industries Spartan Alliance
0
|
Posted - 2013.03.11 16:02:00 -
[23] - Quote
Inkarr Hashur wrote:Kodama Ikari wrote:Orion Wolff wrote: That's a bit closed minded. There's balancing going on to add depth to Eve all the time. Also, it's clear that you don't understand WH life, or glass cannons.
Its not that new gameplay mechanics are bad, its just that you're suggesting a gimmicky one to solve a non-problem. Pointing this out is not the same as being closed-minded. I may not understand WH life, but there are very few reasons to use t3 snipers over BS snipers when hp is an issue. If you're using attack BC's because of cost or ease of getting the hulls in, then you're just being lazy. Do I have to quote this 2 or 3 times? Obviously someone posting it once wasn't enough to end the thread.
So how many times do I have to ask others for input on how it could WORK, as opposed to NOT work? I'm fine with criticism, but I see nothing positive here. No brainstorming on parts of K space where it would be useful. I could think of several - low/null gassing/mining, an additional tanking option for fleets on the hunt, put it up around a group of ships working any sites issuing, using drones inside the field to defend against frigates or cruisers. And if you're worried about making this unbalanced by making it too cheap, make it a tech 2 interdictor or equivalent in cost. More ISK on the field means more risk to use.
Seriously, are you guys this closed minded? |

Orion Wolff
Fukushima Industries Spartan Alliance
0
|
Posted - 2013.03.11 16:04:00 -
[24] - Quote
Savnire Jacitu wrote:30 force field ships all working so that one will activate the second another one goes down. Sure, why the **** not.
No two ships would be able to operate within 30km of each other. /solved |

Orion Wolff
Fukushima Industries Spartan Alliance
0
|
Posted - 2013.03.11 16:06:00 -
[25] - Quote
feihcsiM wrote:Let me clarify my earlier 'Use BSs' comment.
We do double cap ship escalations in all sites in our C6 and its various attached static C5s and to be honest that seems to be where the real money is. In an ideal world to maximise isk we should run just carriers, dreads and loki webs, but we do things a bit differently because like you not everyone can/wants to fly cap ships and the inclusion of everyone in corp activities who wants to join in is always a good thing. As such we run 2 carriers and BSs for dps, usually with a Tengu or two, the odd Drake and a Loki.
I've seen a sleeper BS spawn two-shot through a 70k ehp shield buffer and put a battleship into structure from over 100km away. It mght not be supposed to happen but it does. A BC just can't tank that sort of damage, even with carrier/logi support. You are also limiting your outgoing dps, and hence isk efficiency by using long range BCs with either long range ammo or fighting in deep falloff. Our BSs generally put out ~1k dps each (depending on range/ammo ofc) and we recommend a minimum of about 80k ehp to avoid being alpha'd. You just can't do that efficiently in a sniper BC.
I can see what you are wanting to do in your BCs, and yeah, it's do-able if you are willing to trade it off for questionable isk efficiency and accept a few losses to sleepers here and there. Hell, it's probably even good fun, props for doing it 'outside the box'. It is not, however how I believe the sites were designed to be run or indeed how they were balanced. They seem clearly designed around cap / BS / T3 fleets and glass cannon BCs will always have a bit of a hard time.
(Also if you get jumped a sniper BC fleet can be nuked by a few bombers, a 2 x carrier backed BS fleet - with pvp ships ready in the hanger - can put up a damn good fight)
Thank you for your input. Insightful. I'm sincere about that. |

Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed Agony Empire
1882
|
Posted - 2013.03.11 16:11:00 -
[26] - Quote
Orion Wolff wrote:As a hole rat, I've been working on sniping instrumental sites. The BS sleepers there sometimes alpha strike our little glass cannon BCs, at times up to 250 out. It shouldn't happen but it does and thats what we sign up for in our C5. So I got to thinking: how could we balance this out a bit, and it came to me - a balanced force field ship.
A ship that can be fitted with a mini force field, modded for size and balanced for effectiveness. For instance, one mod would project a force field small but very strong, while a larger field would be weaker. The field would work like typical science fiction shields; ships could move through without problems, and you can target and shoot through them but they protect 100% of objects inside of them up until enough damage has been taken, and then they shut down for core recharge, which could take cap booster type charges and would have a cool down timer. Logistics ships would be able to boost the field strength with a energy emissions mod, or some other type of logi effect.
And the best part, both tanker types wouldn't be able to complain because the skills for this ship and mods would be independent of tanking skills, which is why I called it a force field instead of a shield ship.
Ideas? Maybe we can get some CCP input?
lol..... Like this wouldn't be abused....
|

Tarsas Phage
Freight Club
139
|
Posted - 2013.03.11 16:11:00 -
[27] - Quote
Orion Wolff wrote:StoneCold wrote:Some in here told you how it works. You just refuse to listen. And say things like "but, but, but..." Funny. Sounds like you're all doing the same thing. Glass houses, rocks, dude.
It's a common theme here where someone thinks up an idea that they think is absolutely ingenious and posts about it here, only to get indignant when someone knocks it down. You're not the first, and you certainly won't be the last in that regard.
Take a step back and think again about the context in which you're making your proposal. First, as has been pointed out by others, you're using ships for a task in which they just don't work out for. While the attempt to see if there are new ways of doing things with existing tools is laudable, if it doesn't work out, you'll need to settle with it just not working out. The response is not to come up with some entirely new ship or module that does a very specific thing which would allow your very context-specific idea to (maybe) work in your favor.
|

Orion Wolff
Fukushima Industries Spartan Alliance
0
|
Posted - 2013.03.11 16:15:00 -
[28] - Quote
We do double cap escalations as well, but not members are available to bring an archon in with 3 t3s. I'm wondering is tools like this could be introduced that could be limited - like a covert cloaking device, or other ideas added that have to be limited in order to bring balance but variety. |

Maeltstome
Mentally Assured Destruction Whores in space
350
|
Posted - 2013.03.11 16:28:00 -
[29] - Quote
Orion Wolff wrote:StoneCold wrote:Orion Wolff wrote:[...] We try to maximize our earnings with the fewest members possible, [...] Greed is bad. I take it you don't bother earning ISK then.
Most wormhole dwellers are users of faction/navy BS or strat cruisers for that very reason. The more each member can do, the less members you need - this means more lewt for each member. A buffered BS will require much less logistics than a battlecruiser, therefore reducing the number of fleet members.
And btw, you're loosing ships. Profit is being lost. Ship up or scale down to C4's
And your idea isn't a new one. It's a variation on POS force-fields and would be impossible to balance in real PVP scenario's. They would either be horribly overpowered or pointless.
And as a final point, a gang booster can increase hit points and resistances which is a diluted form of extended your defenses to another ship and is already a usable feature. |

Kosetzu
Red Federation RvB - RED Federation
60
|
Posted - 2013.03.11 16:36:00 -
[30] - Quote
Okey lets say this feature is implemented, acts somewhat like the heavy dictor bubble except as a shield (assuming that is what you're thinking). Limiting them from being close to each other will be like saying you can only bring one titan to a capital fight, and EVE is supposed to be a sandbox game (sorta), so this wouldn't work out. Sure only one active at a time in a area, but the second it goes down you can just have another ship bring up theirs instead (again think of heavy dictors, one dies another puts up bubble to replace it).
Such a module/ship would completely unbalance PvP as well, as it will just be about who can bring the most shield bubbles to a fight to back up their alpha fleet(s). Sure breaking up the metagame can be good, but it will just become "bring as many of this as possible" instead of trying to counter the enemy. If you add your suggestion to make logistics able to add shield to it by transfers, you get a superbubble that is impossible to break unless you bring enough ships to alpha it away, which just adds to the problem of boring blob warfare that nullsec has become.
This is just a "I don't want to take damage but kill everything" type of module suggestion. So there you have it, that is why people don't like the idea, as it will never be balanced, and instead of adding something to boost something else that isn't designed to work, you should rather adjust what you bring to fight the sleepers, and if you don't have the firepower, move to an easier wormhole. |
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