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Dominicus Tempest
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Posted - 2005.08.19 19:41:00 -
[1]
Ok I feel there might be a fun solution that will benefit both miners and ore thieves. Please read and give me feedback on what you think and I will try to revise it based on good advice to end up with a cool item for patch.
Firstly, keep the way jet cans work as is. It is meant for players to be able to discard junk from their cargo for others to take advantage of. One manÆs junk is anotherÆs treasure. It would be wrong to make it a crime for others to loot these jet cans when thatÆs what they were meant for in the first place.
Now create a new line of containers called Ore Containers or something like that. These containers will have some of the following properties:
-They will have a huge amount of space comparable to a jet can
-Their volume and capacity will be the same
-They will be password protected but with a twist
-They should be reasonably priced so that most miners, even newer ones can use them
-They are able to be anchored in any sec system within 1 km of any object (better than 5 km that secures require)
Now hereÆs the twist, unlike secure cargo containers where once anchored are untouchable without the password or a gun, these ore containers will be able to be hacked.
When an ore thief is to hack one of these containers, he/she is now flagged to be attacked by the miner and the miner only for 15 minutes since the initiation of the hacking process. The miner will be given an alert that his/her container is being hacked in xxxx system.
When the ore thief completes the hacking of the container he is able to have access to it for the period in which he is flagged for attack.
This hacking will require a skill of course called hacking. At its highest level it should take an ore thief 1-2 minutes to hack the container. At its lowest level it should take as long as 8-10 minutes (these are just values I quickly thought up to be reasonable. Remember that the ore thief only has access to the container as long as he is flagged for which is 15 minutes since the hacking was initiated).
What I believe will result in the implementation of this idea is that a) jet cans are more likely to be used the way they should, b) the miners have a chance to fight back now and some time to get the thief before ore is taken from them, and c) since it is more convenient for miners to use am ore container over a secure container even in lower sec space (as it is anchorable), almost all containers used by miners will be lootable and will result in more people to get ore from than before.
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Jelosavich
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Posted - 2005.08.19 20:03:00 -
[2]
I think it's a good idea. The time it ends should be 15 minutes after the hacking ends though.
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Rasten Ferralt
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Posted - 2005.08.19 20:15:00 -
[3]
Hmmm, not bad at all. However, I would prefer to have the thief labeled as a criminal and therefore fair game to all for the 15 minutes. Afterall, there can be no argument that the thief is indeed stealing.
Let the bodies hit the floor. We can count 'em later. |
teemu 2004
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Posted - 2005.08.19 20:27:00 -
[4]
first, im not a ore thief. as mentioned, jet cans were for throwing junk away. if you throw away your ore and some1 takes it, itd be bout the same as throwing something in the trash can, see some1 take it and call him/Her a thief when s/hes only *cough* recycling that which you threw away.
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Velax
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Posted - 2005.08.19 21:04:00 -
[5]
ANY system? Remember the reason they arent allowed in .8 and up anymore....
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Sarmaul
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Posted - 2005.08.19 21:27:00 -
[6]
good idea, but how about applying the same principal to all secure containers? also, some nice skills/modules to unanchor cans would be rather nice too.
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Menod Penter
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Posted - 2005.08.19 21:30:00 -
[7]
I've spent some long hours thinking about how to make miners happy and I've come up with the following solution.
1. Create asteroid fields around the stations, or make stations in the asteroid fields.
2. Add some mining ports in the stations ship bays so miners can aim their mining lasers out of them.
3. Create a new skill called 'Station Mining" which gives the miner the ability to mine from there ship without ever leaving the station. The skill should be cheap to buy (about 100 Isk) and easy to learn (Level 5 in about 15 minutes).
4. Create a new station service called "Cargo Transport". When activated it will automatically move ore (or goods) from the parked ships cargohold to the hanger floor. Of course it should also be low priced, station charges 1 Isk per hour for use of their services.
If CCP were to implement these items I think the miners would finally be happy. Miners would never have to fear thieves again, and AFK miners could sleep soundly knowing their ship was safe from destruction or bumpers. There would be no more long trips to the asteroid fields and back. No more worries of how they can keep their ore safe from thieves. They could sit in the station for hours on end, immune to wars, NPC's, and other things that go bump in the night (heck, they could even go AFK for the whole day then). The ore would be neatly stacked on the hanger floor without having to insta back and forth to unload. They would no longer need that 2nd account for a hauler just to sit in the belt with them. Worries about jet cans popping would cease to exist and they could all be happy as a clam.
Well that's my 2 cents.....
Have a Nice Day
Menod
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Sarmaul
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Posted - 2005.08.19 21:31:00 -
[8]
No-one mining in Heimatar tonight then? 
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Malx
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Posted - 2005.08.19 22:24:00 -
[9]
I've got a better idea. When you are mining in .9 or 1.0 space and your hold is full, go sell. When you dump your ore in a jet can so that you can mine more ore without any kind of risk of being attacked, because you are in .9 or 1.0 space, you should expect the possibility of getting your ore stolen. CCP doesn't have to put any system in there for miners to protect their ore, the miners already have it. It's called USING YOUR BRAIN. Full hold go sell, want more than your hold can carry, expect to be stolen from.
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BlackDog Rackh'am
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Posted - 2005.08.19 23:51:00 -
[10]
Well,it's true that ore thieving balances out the economy in the game.Plus,if some system is finally implemented for flagging the thief in a reasonable way,both parties will have a risk vs reward deal on their hands,which is good.
However,i distinctly remember menod penter and a couple other guys going about with mission bookmarks and picking up loot from missions,which is a totally different deal from ore thieving(good solution,lvl3 missions in an assault frig,orbit close and scoop the can fast).That used to annoy me when i was still an empire based mission runner,since it was my main source of income and i couldn't make tons of isk while being afk,like miners did,nor did i have a wealth of 0.0 NPC's to go after.Even more,all players have lost ships doing missions in their early days,so it's not an entirely risk free business either.
Mind you,i'm not refering to veteran players in pre-patch ravens soloing lvl4's,i'm talking about new players slowly making their way in the game,which will be discouraged and maybe leave.So,the flagging system could be possibly extended to mission cans,but maybe a timer could be implemented along with it.For example,if the mission runner doesn't pick them up in say 15 mins,they are accessible to the public without a flagging penalty.That way new players may pick up loot that's good to them and trash for some more seasoned player that he chose to leave behind.
All in all,we don't need a risk free afk mining simulator,but we also don't need a small group of elitist old school players that will drive away all the new people.Remember,what is bad for CCP's wallet ends up having an effect on the way we all play the game,so let's make sure that noobs in NPC corps can have some time to learn the ropes before they get slammed head-first into a brick wall.
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K3NDY
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Posted - 2005.08.20 11:20:00 -
[11]
all u will get is belts choked up with 'ore cans'
secure cans should lose x amount of hp per hour untill they pop, this will stop spam cans, and those anoying secures in yulai that got placed before nerf.
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dantes inferno
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Posted - 2005.08.20 14:23:00 -
[12]
having these cans with a limited shelf life is a good idea or jumping to a belt in 0.9,1.0 will be one hell of a lag fest with some 1000000 can per belt.
the best solution (though one which will have a lot of problems to start with) is having the theif (yes you are theifes this whole garbage anaology is stupuid and getting tedious..alomost as bad as these "jet can is xploit were doing ccp a favour"bs or the even more stupid "we help the economy" when their actions dont really even dent the amount of people who jet can mine and they sell the ore on the market anyways...so only difference is the person making the money) flagged this will give the thief some risk, which at the moment they lack (funny how a lot of these thiefes go around saying that the high sec miners have no risk at all...when their in the same boat, worse as they are parasitical entites making a living of this mistake in the game code)
But the soulution given here would probably add more fun into the high sec miner/theif scenario, though i still would like a way that no one can mine in 0.7+ in anything but a frig/indy/cruiser
_____
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Flatspin
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Posted - 2005.08.20 16:47:00 -
[13]
To much work...
There is nothing wrong with the current system. Using jetcans for mining was never intended by CCP. Complaints about ore thiefs then don't mine in 1.0 and 0.9, use secure containers or mine in 0.4-0.1 where you can shoot them. End of story.
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Dominicus Tempest
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Posted - 2005.08.23 00:00:00 -
[14]
Thanks for the feedback so far guys! Now to address some concerns.
In regards to the worry about the ore cans flooding up the higher sec systems, my thought was that once the hacker has successfully hacked the container, then he has the ability to unanchor it. It wouldn't take long for it to unanchor and would bring in a bit of extra cash for the container. Small time ore thieves would probably try to do this even if the containers are empty just to get some extra cash.
Also in regards to the statement that the 15 minute timer should be activated AFTER the hacking process is complete, I disagree with. The point of having a higher level hacking skill is so that you can hack the container faster before the miner can come and kill you. It also gives the miner an actual chance to kill the ore thief before any ore is lost.
An error that I have to point out in my idea is that I made the foolish mistake of making the cans require to be equal capacity and volume and have a huge capacity that I don't think ships can hold heh.
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muriel
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Posted - 2005.08.23 15:48:00 -
[15]
let us just combine the existing secure containers in game.
1 x 3900 = 3900
2 x 3900 = 7800
3 x 3900 = 10700
10x 3900 = 39000
up to max 10 or 20
then it would be fun to do corp ming
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Dominicus Tempest
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Posted - 2005.08.23 18:00:00 -
[16]
Yea but I would like something that would work for all sec space and would still allow ore thieving to be a viable profession. We need to create more professions in this game not reduce them.
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Nukleanis
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Posted - 2005.08.23 18:31:00 -
[17]
A quick thought about this:
I'm also concerned about these hackable cans flooding sec space and becoming a general pain in the behind as noobs forget that their little can is there. Plus, my idea keeps the number of cans quite low.
So what about a new item instead of a new can?
Let's call this wonderful item an e-lock, an item that needs a skill to use (like electronic locking, with a bonus to how long the lock takes to pick per level). Locks can be dropped into a can and activated which then turns the can into a secure can. If it's installed into a jet can, then it's destroyed when the jet can goes pop. The lock would have to be set as active, however. So say someone's ship is destroyed and they drop a tonne of locks, they're inactive and the jet can they're in can be opened.
Locks can be picked, so the hacking element can be put to use. Once a can is hacked, the lock inside the jet can is considered useless and disappears (might be an idea to reset the lock, but that would cause hundreds of arguments between players, making secure cans not so secure, unless you go round a vicious circle of hacking hacked locks...)
Bonus of this is that if you REALLY don't want someone getting to your stuff, you can add multiple locks (that all share one general access password input by the owner) that take forever to hack, and while they're being hacked you can turn up while they're flagged and blow them up.
Or at least, that's my stupid idea.
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Dominicus Tempest
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Posted - 2005.08.23 22:18:00 -
[18]
The idea of putting a lock on an existing jet can and have it somewhat secure over its lifespan is a nice idea. I can agree with everything you said except the idea of multiple locks on it. The reason I disagree with multiple locks is that I believe that hacking the can should be viable as well as possible.
Although if the locks are fairly expensive to buy/make, then I would have no problem with it since then it takes into account for the miner to consider the cost vs reward. If they are mining scordite and can only fit a million isk's worth in an hour than it wouldn't be worth it to buy 3 250000 isk locks to keep it super secure.
But I really like the idea of utilizing locks on existing containers.
Oh and I left secure containers the way they are in the idea because I feel it gives the miners something that is COMPLETELY secure for them, though as small of space they have.
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Dominicus Tempest
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Posted - 2005.08.24 18:30:00 -
[19]
Oh and for those repliers who are saying just leave the system the way it is (since jet can mining is not intended), I think you need to start looking at these ideas because it seems that things are going to change soon and there's no point in trying to prevent it.
The best thing we can do is offer alternative ideas to what they may already have in plan that could make the game more fun for both miners and ore thieves and make more options in the game (rather than reduce viable options).
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Max DeathWish
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Posted - 2005.08.26 21:22:00 -
[20]
 Originally by: Flatspin
To much work...
There is nothing wrong with the current system. Using jetcans for mining was never intended by CCP.
Key word: WAS. Using jetcans for mining was never intended by CCP.
Read yer patch notes, "in testing" section m8ey. It is now clearly stated that jetcans will be intended for that use, and as private property (the theft of which will be subject to retribution).
So, just remember the key word (was). That tired justification for risk-free thieving is approaching its last days.
Max DeathWish.
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Svett
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Posted - 2005.08.27 12:54:00 -
[21]
Current containers are fine. No need to have secure cans in .8-1.0 space. There is enough litter
Silly rabbit, sigs are for kids |
Outta Sight
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Posted - 2005.08.29 18:35:00 -
[22]
Hello,
I am pretty new to this, but I do have an opinion. I really do not see the problem with ore thieves. I figure it is just part of the game.
I myself have never really mined. I spend most of my time hunting pirates. Yeah the money is not as fast but I do make extra coin for escorting ships who are mining.
Now I am not very powerful yet, so this may change. I understand that people get upset when there stuff gets stolen. I had a container of ammo stolen from me that I dropped in space for a friend of mine, who did not get to it in time. Such is life.
If you do not want it taken from you, fill your hold, go to base. It takes longer yeah, but I think that was the idea. It is easier to leave it in container, but then the risk is there. I say just leave the miners will deal the thieves will deal, and eventually if you get stolen from enough you will learn to defend yourself, or not leave it laying around.
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Jacob Majestic
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Posted - 2005.08.29 19:40:00 -
[23]
The echo in this forum from all the ore-thief threads is threatening to make the membranes of my capsule rupture.
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Amicus
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Posted - 2005.08.30 00:27:00 -
[24]
I am with Max DeathWish on this one. The proposal for jet-cans which has long been discussed and is now in  Testing is the way to go. It is simple and intuitive. Nothing further is needed to preserve the ore thief way-of-life in the game.
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Spa Reine
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Posted - 2005.08.30 13:33:00 -
[25]
How about an ability to boobytrap a container? Fail your attempt to open the container, *boom*. :)
'When in danger or doubt, run in circles scream and shout'. |
Nauta Starbane
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Posted - 2005.08.31 07:08:00 -
[26]
Interesting proposal. I really, honestly like it.
As someone who's followed this debate for way too long, here's why the larger playerbase would never actually accept it:
1. Miners don't want ANY risk. They'll shout that this is a half-measure to fix an epidemic problem of catestrophic proportions that threatens the very foundations of the EVE economy.
If its not as big as a jetcan, secure as a secure can and anchorable in 1.0, they're not interested. They see no reason why they should have to support scavengers. At all.
(Addendum: I promise you that any plan to tag thieves might have impact on thieves operating in low sec, but the folks in Jita mainly just want to be left alone, so very little will happen there.)
2. You'd get MORE ore thieves. Today's ore thieves do it simply to grief other players. Its not a challenge, its not a money maker. The thrill is finding a can, stealing it and watching someone in a barge bawl or threaten your children in local. (That was fun for a while. Then when I got bored I'd find secure cans that hadn't been anchored and reanchor them with insulting messages about the previous owner... you get the idea).
If you made it interesting and challenging by turning it into a skillset, suddenly experienced players who couldn't otherwise be bothered have a reason to grab cans.
3. Its not worth it.
If you totalled all the worth of all the ore stolen every week across the map, it would probably be less than made by the miners operating in .7 on the 5k npc rat bounties alone. There are bigger problems that should be dealt with, the parasitic relationship of miner and thief should rank somewhere below allowing you to turn off the cabin lights on your thorax.
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Lord Aradon
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Posted - 2005.08.31 08:00:00 -
[27]
Why oh why do people insist on harping on about jet cans being "dust-bins" in which you throw stuff away and so anything that is in them is fair game?
Im sorry but when my corp ticker is stamped on that same "dust-bin" anything inside the bloody thing is MINE or my corp-mates and when someone takes from it they are stealing from OUR can.
If i put a bag in the middle of the street and everynow and again put something in that bag, just because its there doesn't give ANYONE the right to remove the contents.
Hiding behind this stupid principal is like a car thief saying "well it was just there in the street"
Oh, and i hope someone takes it upon themselves to steal your "trash" and subsequently your identity, then see if you feel the same way about it.
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Paul Atradiese
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Posted - 2005.08.31 09:16:00 -
[28]
I like the Idea of a hacking skill but it should extend to all secure containers in space.
With regard to ore theft It just dosnt only affect miners it affects market prices as well for example I need 7618601 trit to build a megathron so i'm happily chewing veld i just fill my can and go and get my hauler to find some ore thief just stole all the ore.
Result 270,000m3 of veld stolen that = (at 100% refine) 810,000 trit lets say market value of trit is 2.2 isk that = 1,783,783.78 isk which is now included in the base production cost which affects the selling price.
So i wont mind ORE Thieve as long as those who say its ok and stop whining do the same about market prices.
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Tharim
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Posted - 2005.08.31 12:22:00 -
[29]
Good idea.
But: I have a feeling that once you make ore thieving a profession with a slight risk to it, the profession will disapear.
Because, lets face it once and for all: Stealing ore is not about profit but to create grief with no danger to yourself. The moment they risk being shot at, they will stop stealing.
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spRAYed
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Posted - 2005.08.31 12:31:00 -
[30]
I'm not into this whole mining thingy's really, but maybe it be nice to have a countdown timer on each secure container in a belt. If its not used for a week...it pops. This way u wont have 1000000000000 secured cans sitting in a belt picking their nose..or hangin above a station spelling someone's name because he wants to be famous.....
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Olixia Castitatis
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Posted - 2005.08.31 21:12:00 -
[31]
Originally by: Tharim
Good idea.
But: I have a feeling that once you make ore thieving a profession with a slight risk to it, the profession will disapear.
Because, lets face it once and for all: Stealing ore is not about profit but to create grief with no danger to yourself. The moment they risk being shot at, they will stop stealing.
I don get this attitude! Sure, some people are just griefing *****s, but some of us do it as our main job, for money. We understand the risk and specialise our skills for the purpose of being better at ore theft. A little danger wont stop us: People have declared war because of our work, but we continue nevertheless. A little extra danger wont trouble me... *strokes cloaking device*
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Botia Macracantha
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Posted - 2005.08.31 21:41:00 -
[32]
Mix it up a bit. Have some fun. Don't worry be happy .... 
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Argyle Jones
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Posted - 2005.09.01 01:25:00 -
[33]
Originally by: Olixia Castitatis
I don get this attitude! Sure, some people are just griefing *****s, but some of us do it as our main job, for money. We understand the risk and specialise our skills for the purpose of being better at ore theft. A little danger wont stop us: People have declared war because of our work, but we continue nevertheless. A little extra danger wont trouble me... *strokes cloaking device*
Eh? Understand the risk, you say? What risk?
Personally, I really couldn't care less about secure containers and locks and all that. What's
important here is that ore thieves can take our ore and we can't do a damn thing about it. The
minute some kleptomaniac sticks his greasy little hands into my can, I want a free pass to open
fire on him without being punished for it. Hell, let Texas rules apply - tresspass and you're fair
game.
Understand the risk... jezus!! :\
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Tharim
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Posted - 2005.09.01 05:56:00 -
[34]
Yes Olixia. But you dident steal ore from the guys you were in war with did you? I doubt it. It will be different when the miners can shoot at you. Im sure.
And btw: You have really misunderstood something if you steal ore only for profit. It must be the least profitable business in eve. You should be able to make more isk running a few trade routes with your hauler. How much do you make a day?
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Charabis Anputeti
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Posted - 2005.09.01 07:34:00 -
[35]
Actually, I think the best way to be an ore thief is just to go out with a smaller ship and try to confirm that your "target" is a macrominer. Once this is confirmed, just haul off his ore until you have enough, then petition CCP if you feel like adding insult to injury, or add them to your address book for future reference in a folder titled "Cheaters I Can Profit from" 
This will give ore thieves lots of targets while, at the same time, reducing the profitiability of cheating
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My name is "Todd". Drop the "T" and it explains sooooooo much! |
Afillia Holmes
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Posted - 2005.09.01 08:34:00 -
[36]
Cant do anything about it? U can still shoot people in high sec cant u?
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Mrmuttley
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Posted - 2005.09.02 09:42:00 -
[37]
The OP has come up with a sensible "middle ground" solution here
Couple of points
No Ore Containers in 0.8 and up else the big mining corps wiill come and strip mine the noob systems like Chaven and Kisogo and generally stuff up the whole noobie experience.
Ore containers should self destruct when anchored after a period of say 8 hours. This will stop the litter and lag. Any cans recovered then re-launched will reset the timer.
Make them quite big say 12,000 so you need some industrial skills and I agree with the idea that you make them the same size inside and out.
Once this then you have 4 options for mining.
Mine and return to base each time your hold is full for noobs with low skills
Secure can mining Lots of hassle no risk
Ore can mining medium hassle medium risk
Jet can mining low hassle no security at all
Each pilot gets to choose the level of risk that suits him.
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Hmmm I need a Sig |
Olixia Castitatis
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Posted - 2005.09.02 10:32:00 -
[38]
Originally by: Tharim
Yes Olixia. But you dident steal ore from the guys you were in war with did you? I doubt it. It will be different when the miners can shoot at you. Im sure.
And btw: You have really misunderstood something if you steal ore only for profit. It must be the least profitable business in eve. You should be able to make more isk running a few trade routes with your hauler. How much do you make a day?
I can earn about 10 million in two hours, taken from macrominers in the Rens area. Its pretty good money since I have only been playing about three weeks.
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maximyus
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Posted - 2005.09.02 12:01:00 -
[39]
FINE THE WAY IT IS STOP WHINING BEFORE WE NERFED AGAIN
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Jelan
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Posted - 2005.09.03 23:23:00 -
[40]
I disagree, its not fine the way it is. I thought I'd give this game a go. My first concern was that you are rewarded for the length of time you play, and secondly I have never liked PvP.
I'm not a hare, I'm a tortoise in this game and have been playing for about 4 weeks and am way behind most of the other people in my corp, skills and equipment.
But I was enjoying it, and have met some nice people. However, ore theft and an arrogant b*****d to boot called beellzeebub has ruined the game for me and I have since cancelled my subscription.
Shame really.
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