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Safdrof Uta
VELOCIRAPTORS EATING GRILLED CHEESE SANDWICH
14
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Posted - 2013.03.15 05:28:00 -
[91] - Quote
Snatch Pinion wrote:Landogana Kelik wrote: Also quite laughable.
Well, at least you're not holding all the sites open anymore.
Lando was never holding sites open. That was (presumably) ISN pilots and pilots who had been banned by TVP. |
Goldiiee
Superior Ratio
High Sec Dropouts
287
|
Posted - 2013.03.15 06:45:00 -
[92] - Quote
Safdrof Uta wrote:Snatch Pinion wrote:Landogana Kelik wrote: Also quite laughable.
Well, at least you're not holding all the sites open anymore. Lando was never holding sites open. That was (presumably) ISN pilots and pilots who had been banned by TVP.
Yeah seems strange everytime something happens the default is ISN did it. We suffered through that as well, and petitioned CCP to change it as individuals and as a group.
I imagine a guy laughing his arse off as you blame everyone but him.
Reason and logic never wins over Stubborn and Convinced (But I still try..) |
Miles Forrester
Reverberation Inc
The Veyr Collective
7
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Posted - 2013.03.15 07:55:00 -
[93] - Quote
Dianila Artemisa wrote:Wow, I see a lot of talking about an "angry german", but it seems everybody, including me, is angry. I suppose that 99% of the people just want to make ISK without the drama. So please, to everybody: create an agreement *TOGETHER* and stick to it, I'm pretty sure nobody likes the current situation where we have to move every second day because one side popped the mom or provoked the other side to pop it.
So, I talked about this in DIN-Flotten (DIN's public channel) and I got laughed at, something like "we don't negotiate with ISN", the longer this lasts, the more tempted I feel to get these idiots calling themselves "community leaders" together, put them in one room and don't let them out till they come with a solution (killing each other is NOT a solution btw). Please all go back to grinding and the occasional contest (because honestly, some DIN/TVP fleets can actually beat ISN when ISN comes to contest them (yes, that's at equal numbers))
tl;dr: Incursion community leadership need to get their heads out of their asses and create an agreement everybody agrees to.
Believe me, I tried.
What was gotten out of it: 2 weeks of "peace". |
Safdrof Uta
VELOCIRAPTORS EATING GRILLED CHEESE SANDWICH
15
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Posted - 2013.03.15 09:57:00 -
[94] - Quote
Goldiiee wrote:Safdrof Uta wrote:Snatch Pinion wrote:Landogana Kelik wrote: Also quite laughable.
Well, at least you're not holding all the sites open anymore. Lando was never holding sites open. That was (presumably) ISN pilots and pilots who had been banned by TVP. Yeah seems strange everytime something happens the default is ISN did it. We suffered through that as well, and petitioned CCP to change it as individuals and as a group. I imagine a guy laughing his arse off as you blame everyone but him.
Thought you guys had the guy opening sites up for you...
I may have heard bad propaganda.
At the very least, certain pilots banned by TVP were behind some of it. |
Safdrof Uta
VELOCIRAPTORS EATING GRILLED CHEESE SANDWICH
15
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Posted - 2013.03.15 09:59:00 -
[95] - Quote
Just gonna point this out though - This isn't even a "ideas" discussion anymore - it's now mainly just "ISN HATES TVP/DIN" and vice versa. |
Dianila Artemisa
State War Academy
Caldari State
3
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Posted - 2013.03.15 12:12:00 -
[96] - Quote
Yeah... this is going nowhere.... It's good to see that DaisyCutter offered ISN to create a "mutual beneficial arrangement" though. I would love to see ISN (and DIN, please guys, I just want to make ISK) accept that offer and create such an arrangement so we don't even have to ask for mechanics changes.
I know people like Miles tried this with limited succes, but now it's time for the community leaders to think carefully about what's better for their pilots, let the current situation go on or set the prejudices and hatred aside and create the agreement that has been mentioned before. It's not about your ego, it's about what's good for the community (and if it actually is an ego problem, please just duel each other to settle it). Also, saying "but they did ..." is the best way to make sure nothing happens, pointing out what the other guys did is not going to help. "He who is without sins cast the first stone"
tl;dr Just read it, it's not that long. |
DJ P0N-3
Table Flippendeavors
169
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Posted - 2013.03.15 13:48:00 -
[97] - Quote
Safdrof Uta wrote:Just gonna point this out though - This isn't even a "ideas" discussion anymore - it's now mainly just "ISN HATES TVP/DIN" and vice versa.
No, no, the actual idea being proposed is an incursion subforum on the eve-o forums so they have somewhere to argue other than F&I, destroyer of threads. |
Kranyoldlady
European Nuthouse
16
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Posted - 2013.03.15 14:39:00 -
[98] - Quote
DarthNefarius wrote:Kodavor wrote:turlough dominian wrote:Not sure if a change in how incurstions work is needed,
Probably best if the groups who may or may not be causeing the issue's come to some kind of mature arrangement that not only benifits them but also the rest of the isk making comunity or other option continue killing off the high sec incurstions so no one can do them Oh we tried . We tried many times . Each time we were offered a ready agreement made by the other side that we need to " sign " or simply told that we have to stop flying the way we want to and have flown since day one . ISN broke every agreement we tried to have with them. Your word in repect to agreements is lower then mud TBH
http://www.rozie.info/eve/EVE_Online_Incursion_Meeting__2_parts_redacted.mp3
nuff said |
Graham Nolen
3 FISH BRAND
4
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Posted - 2013.03.15 15:17:00 -
[99] - Quote
Isn doesn't hate anyone even chardrass, I mean how could you hate someone that reminds you of Augusts gloop
not again.
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Snatch Pinion
Jitex Inc.
Catastrophic Uprising
14
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Posted - 2013.03.15 16:00:00 -
[100] - Quote
Safdrof Uta wrote:Goldiiee wrote:Safdrof Uta wrote:Snatch Pinion wrote:Landogana Kelik wrote: Also quite laughable.
Well, at least you're not holding all the sites open anymore. Lando was never holding sites open. That was (presumably) ISN pilots and pilots who had been banned by TVP. Yeah seems strange everytime something happens the default is ISN did it. We suffered through that as well, and petitioned CCP to change it as individuals and as a group. I imagine a guy laughing his arse off as you blame everyone but him. Thought you guys had the guy opening sites up for you... I may have heard bad propaganda. At the very least, certain pilots banned by TVP were behind some of it.
I guess they just mysteriously opened when Lando was running fleets then. |
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Snatch Pinion
Jitex Inc.
Catastrophic Uprising
14
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Posted - 2013.03.15 16:06:00 -
[101] - Quote
Safdrof Uta wrote:Just gonna point this out though - This isn't even a "ideas" discussion anymore - it's now mainly just "ISN HATES TVP/DIN" and vice versa.
ISN doesn't hate TVP, a good chunk of our members come from there. I recommend all my incursion noobs in corp, alliance and coalition to join TVP and to ignore the vitriol. Although when tensions are high I generally help to afford them a pirate faction hull and faction guns to avoid TVP altogether but when things are on a lul I send them to TVP. |
Miles Forrester
Reverberation Inc
The Veyr Collective
9
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Posted - 2013.03.15 16:58:00 -
[102] - Quote
To the OP: sorry for the derailment in the thread (though on topic I would have to disagree with changing mechanics as solving the current situation is not impossible).
"Off"-topic:
Dianila Artemisa wrote:Yeah... this is going nowhere.... It's good to see that DaisyCutter offered ISN to create a "mutual beneficial arrangement" though. I would love to see ISN (and DIN, please guys, I just want to make ISK) accept that offer and create such an arrangement so we don't even have to ask for mechanics changes.
I know people like Miles tried this with limited succes, but now it's time for the community leaders to think carefully about what's better for their pilots, let the current situation go on or set the prejudices and hatred aside and create the agreement that has been mentioned before. It's not about your ego, it's about what's good for the community (and if it actually is an ego problem, please just duel each other to settle it). Also, saying "but they did ..." is the best way to make sure nothing happens, pointing out what the other guys did is not going to help. "He who is without sins cast the first stone"
tl;dr Just read it, it's not that long.
The agreement I can see happening:
Contesting:
- Keep contests to a minimal amount. When wanting to run many contests in a row, do contact the other fleet(s) in advance.
- Should the other fleet (i.e. target of the contest) be one where a trainee FC is just learning the ropes then contesting such fleets should be discouraged.
Mothership sites:
- The free-for-all method will work best here, as new communities might form in the future and they too will want to have a go at a mothership site.
- To encourage multi-channel support for a mothership site, Allied could be used as a place where mothership fleets can be formed up (from the ground up, as to [evenly] get people from each community).
- A discussion can still be had on mixing shield and armor to do a mothership site, though you would need about double the number of logistics or the armor ships would need to fit some shield resistance modules.
- In any case, should a mothership fleet be full the rest will move to the next incursion. This is to get the ISK flowing again as soon as possible.
- The time for a mothership site to be taken should be when either of these 2 cases is met:
--1) 40 hours after first sight of mobilization. Yes, 40 not 48. This is to give other timezones a chance at mothership sites as well.
--2) First sight of withdrawing.
Banlists:
- To be able to get proper communications going, all banlists should be wiped.
- Use a (up to) 24 hour mute instead of instant banning to act as a warning and to give time to contact others. This contact is needed to avoid unneeded bans happening.
Multiple incursions:
- Due to all our numbers, multiple incursions can be taken down at the same time (even with this agreement) but I, personally, would discourage this such that players don't need to commute between incursions all the time.
Contesting is more into TVP/DIN's favor; MOM-sites more into ISN's favor; banlists are in everyone's favor.
Side note about the Allied channels:
I know there is a channel around (IFCC for example) that has leaders of some communities in there but I am willing to transform/convert/change Allied to such a higher platform.
In this sense the channels would (most likely) be adjusted like this::
- Fleet channel can then be used for the creation of mothership fleets
- Public channel can be used as a sorting hat for getting players into communities (or getting people to know what incursions actually are, a kind of help-channel)
- FC channel can be used as a communication ground for any and all FC's (e.g. to tell about contests and such)
- Council channel can be used to have each community's leaders. Yet to be discussed is then how many representatives per community.
Edit: Can like if you agree here and otherwise just reply with constructive feedback. A simple "no" will not suffice without arguments. |
Verity Sovereign
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
417
|
Posted - 2013.03.15 18:16:00 -
[103] - Quote
Well, without conferring with anyone in any community, here's something I personally thought would be reasonable:
* no killing the last high sec mom until withdraw
-- Possibly: No killing the a high sec mom if the only other high sec mom is in a high sec island
* No killing moms until mobilized
-- Killing a mom before withdraw should be discouraged if the nearest high sec mom is more than 20 jumps away.
* no more than two consecutive successful contests, if you win two sites back to back, let them do another site in peace before contesting again.
-- in the sites where MTACs must be dropped, no stealing/withholdings mtacs to allow the tower to rep to allow more time to catch up during the contest
* No blobbing, blobbing shall be defined as running with more than 3 over optimal, or perhaps with a number where the individual payout is half the max payout. Fleet members/boxes that warp off before completion to avoid reduced payout count towards this.
* No preloading sites
* No bountying or ganking others (these last two would have to be on the honor system, as there is no way to verify)
-- When contesting, no killing ships to cause additional waves to spawn unnecessarily (it shall be assumed you're trying to get the other fleet killed in a way similar to preloading) |
Miles Forrester
Reverberation Inc
The Veyr Collective
9
|
Posted - 2013.03.15 18:29:00 -
[104] - Quote
Verity Sovereign wrote:Well, without conferring with anyone in any community, here's something I personally thought would be reasonable:
* no killing the last high sec mom until withdraw
-- Possibly: No killing the a high sec mom if the only other high sec mom is in a high sec island
* No killing moms until mobilized
-- Killing a mom before withdraw should be discouraged if the nearest high sec mom is more than 20 jumps away.
* no more than two consecutive successful contests, if you win two sites back to back, let them do another site in peace before contesting again.
-- in the sites where MTACs must be dropped, no stealing/withholdings mtacs to allow the tower to rep to allow more time to catch up during the contest
* No blobbing, blobbing shall be defined as running with more than 3 over optimal, or perhaps with a number where the individual payout is half the max payout. Fleet members/boxes that warp off before completion to avoid reduced payout count towards this.
* No preloading sites
* No bountying or ganking others (these last two would have to be on the honor system, as there is no way to verify)
-- When contesting, no killing ships to cause additional waves to spawn unnecessarily (it shall be assumed you're trying to get the other fleet killed in a way similar to preloading)
All are great additions, though a preload could happen every now and then by accident (leeroy). Ofcourse doing so on purpose is another matter.
Now to just get all the communities to agree with this... |
Verity Sovereign
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
417
|
Posted - 2013.03.15 18:37:00 -
[105] - Quote
Yes, sometimes we enter a site, and see some wreck from a noob in a drake or a raven, or some BS like that, as I said:
"these last two would have to be on the honor system, as there is no way to verify"
If a lot of preloads are happening, its completely possible its a 3rd party greifer.
Much like if a tornado fleet enters a system and ganks OGBs or ships - unless the pilots are the same as known members of another community, then you don't know if they are an alt/mercenary of another group, or just the rest of EVE sandboxing... |
Dianila Artemisa
State War Academy
Caldari State
3
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Posted - 2013.03.15 18:38:00 -
[106] - Quote
Miles Forrester wrote:Now to just get all the communities to agree with this...
And that's where it'll get difficult... But I agree with it (but who am I? I'm just a grunt who tries to run incursions with some SWA people every now and then) |
Violet Giraffe
Space Giraffes
11
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Posted - 2013.03.16 11:54:00 -
[107] - Quote
This is so funny and so unreasonable (I'm referring to OP here).
The mechanics is perrefect as it is. |
ShiroOokami
Paxton Industries
Gentlemen's Agreement
5
|
Posted - 2013.03.16 15:54:00 -
[108] - Quote
This post is going to alienate me from a vast vast majority of the incursion communities, hell probably alienate me from some quite good and close friends but this needs to be put out there, an I make this post on this toon regardless of the repercussions that I know will come from it. Also this will not be very well formatted or done to proper English grammar, but I'm not very good at those, so please bear with me.
I would like to call to any pilot, be them old, middle aged or new to the incursion scene that are sick, tired and generally irritated with all this rubbish going on and hearing about it, as a whole to join the mailing list "I Don't Give a Frak" in-game and reply to me whether yes or no in joining me via a private mail in my following proposal to form up and essentially shut down incursions for as many months as possible, go to a policy of just continually repeating this.
I'm not calling on this to grief to upset people, but it all honesty if all this crap that is being down between each of the communities is going to continue, then lets not cut off the need for the communities as a whole. I know some keep their accounts alive from incursions and I state to them, there are many ways of making isk in EVE, many of these ways can be some semi passively, please explore these options now even if this policy doesn't get implemented.
Anyone that joins the mailing list will hopefully please take up a policy of not "squealing" on each other to leadership of the various channels as if I do get enough support, I plan on taking some time before starting this, also if the leadership of the various communities that haven't banned me feel the need to after this post, I understand why and will hold no grudge save for those I already have.
I just want to make this clear, we will not be going after specific communities with this idea, just going after incursion sites as a whole, an if the leadership of each community chooses to assist us in this plan, we will welcome it as it will continue our goal until it is decided to end it. Hate me, slander me, gank me, I'll be able to cope with this.
Thank you for your time in reading this.
Edit: Also I forgot to add, if this doesn't come to the fold, I will just take it as a sign that this isn't needed, an will not bring it up again. |
Violet Giraffe
Space Giraffes
11
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Posted - 2013.03.16 16:24:00 -
[109] - Quote
ShiroOokami, what you're proposing is silly. You don't like what's going on - do something else, leave incursions aside for a while, return later. As you've said yourself, Eve universe is big. Someone denied you a site so you're going to deny everyone incursions for months? Come on, grow up. It's not something you have the right to decide anyway. |
ShiroOokami
Paxton Industries
Gentlemen's Agreement
5
|
Posted - 2013.03.16 16:40:00 -
[110] - Quote
Oh it's no because of that, it's for a different reason, my post may not have made the point as clearly as it should but it isn't your assumption.
Anyways next. |
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Violet Giraffe
Space Giraffes
11
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Posted - 2013.03.16 16:42:00 -
[111] - Quote
Your "reason" doesn't matter, actually. My point stays. |
ShiroOokami
Paxton Industries
Gentlemen's Agreement
5
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Posted - 2013.03.16 16:46:00 -
[112] - Quote
Never did I say it did not.
Again next. |
Dianila Artemisa
Thorn Project
Ushra'Khan
3
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Posted - 2013.03.16 19:40:00 -
[113] - Quote
How about get an agreement everybody agrees to instead of running around popping moms? We might actually be able to just make ISK without being scared of other people contesting/blobbing/popping the mothership. |
adopt
Hostile.
PURPLE HELMETED WARRIORS
555
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Posted - 2013.03.17 21:59:00 -
[114] - Quote
It is good to see that over a year has passed and nothing - at all - has changed between the incursion communities. Good on you guys.
Shadoo > Always remember to fit Cynosural Field Generator I, have 450 Liquid Ozone in your cargo and convo a friendly Pandemic Legion member if you have a capital or super capital ship tackled.
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