EVE Search - Reduce Thoraxes bay to 100m3


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ELECTR0FREAK	Posted - 2005.08.23 01:04:00 - [1] It's been said numerous times before. Swap the Brutix drone bay (100 m3) with the Thorax drone bay (200 m3) and you kill two birds with one stone. If the Thorax users want to whine about it, toss them either a dozen or so more m/s to their speed or a bit more powergrid. -Electrofreak Discoverer of the Missile Damage Formula
ELECTR0FREAK	Posted - 2005.08.23 09:39:00 - [2] That whole point is retarded. No sane Thorax pilot launches his drones out at 45 km. You carry your drones to the target. So stop using that as defense. Problem with the Thorax is its ability to put out 170 DPS through its drones, another 90 DPS through Light Neutron Blasters, while having 5k+ HP with a plate fitted, as well as the ability to fit plenty of hardners. I don't care how much you complain that it's short range, thats just plain unbalanced. Also, don't give me the "you can shoot the drones or smartbomb them" bull. It takes 5 reps of a thermal medium smartbomb to kill an Ogre. Thats about 40 seconds with high-level smartbomb skills. In that time, they will deal 6800 points of damage. And shooting them down one by one? A bit more effective but it doesn't change the fact that the entire time you're trying to kill those drones, them AND the Thorax are ripping into you. -Electrofreak Discoverer of the Missile Damage Formula
ELECTR0FREAK	Posted - 2005.08.23 10:04:00 - [3] ^^ Well said. -Electrofreak Discoverer of the Missile Damage Formula
ELECTR0FREAK	Posted - 2005.08.24 03:14:00 - [4] Originally by: Fidelis Deus A cerebus can pump out the same damage at an extreme range and be able to run when the going gets tought. The Thorax is only able to pump out that damage at extreme close range. I agree perfectly with the person two posts above me - that the thorax is what all cruisers should be, a capable combat vessel that is deadly in skilled hands. Much <3 for people who compare HACs to Cruisers. Actually, a Thorax with a 1600mm plate fitted, resistance mods, has more than twice the hit points of a Cerberus, does the same damage with its DRONE BAY (170 DPS) as a Cerberus does with 2 BCS and a decent tank fitted, and does MORE DPS than a GANK Cerberus with maxed skills (EVERYTHING lvl 5) and Tech 2 Heavy Launchers firing Scourge (260 DPS) if you count the damage from its 5 light Neutron Blasters as well. AND the Thorax can do 170 of its DPS with any damage type. If a Cerb switches from Scourges, its damage output drops 25%. SO don't give me that load of bull. -Electrofreak Discoverer of the Missile Damage Formula
ELECTR0FREAK Eye of God	Posted - 2005.08.24 03:14:00 - [5] Originally by: Fidelis Deus A cerebus can pump out the same damage at an extreme range and be able to run when the going gets tought. The Thorax is only able to pump out that damage at extreme close range. I agree perfectly with the person two posts above me - that the thorax is what all cruisers should be, a capable combat vessel that is deadly in skilled hands. Much <3 for people who compare HACs to Cruisers. Actually, a Thorax with a 1600mm plate fitted, resistance mods, has more than twice the hit points of a Cerberus, does the same damage with its DRONE BAY (170 DPS) as a Cerberus does with 2 BCS and a decent tank fitted, and does MORE DPS than a GANK Cerberus with maxed skills (EVERYTHING lvl 5) and Tech 2 Heavy Launchers firing Scourge (260 DPS) if you count the damage from its 5 light Neutron Blasters as well. AND the Thorax can do 170 of its DPS with any damage type. If a Cerb switches from Scourges, its damage output drops 25%. SO don't give me that load of bull. Discoverer of the Missile Damage Formula
ELECTR0FREAK	Posted - 2005.08.24 03:24:00 - [6] Hey! The Caracal is the Missile Cruiser for the Missile race! So of course it deserves 5 Cruise missile launchers, right? -Electrofreak Discoverer of the Missile Damage Formula
ELECTR0FREAK Eye of God	Posted - 2005.08.24 03:24:00 - [7] Hey! The Caracal is the Missile Cruiser for the Missile race! So of course it deserves 5 Cruise missile launchers, right? Discoverer of the Missile Damage Formula
ELECTR0FREAK	Posted - 2005.08.24 03:35:00 - [8] Theres a difference between ships that have been obviously designed and set up to kill another ship and ones who are IN GENERAL more powerful than the rest. So quit with your circular reasoning. -Electrofreak Discoverer of the Missile Damage Formula
ELECTR0FREAK Eye of God	Posted - 2005.08.24 03:35:00 - [9] Theres a difference between ships that have been obviously designed and set up to kill another ship and ones who are IN GENERAL more powerful than the rest. So quit with your circular reasoning. Discoverer of the Missile Damage Formula
ELECTR0FREAK	Posted - 2005.08.25 04:37:00 - [10] Edited by: ELECTR0FREAK on 25/08/2005 04:37:31 Garreck... thats the most ridiculous point ever. I could hop into a Thorax, and fly into HED and attack battleships until I'm lucky enough to catch one with a crappy setup and kill it. I could then repeat this numerous times, losing several Thorax in the process. This doesn't mean the Thorax is on par with other cruisers. It means I'm using a Thorax over and over to attack larger ships. Just because you see a bunch of Thorax losses on a killboard doesn't mean it sucks, it means that because its overpowered and thus so popular, its being overused. Killboards have no place in this arguement. Also, god, if you'd read any of my bazillion other threads, you'd know that a Thorax, approaching with a MWD and a 1600mm plate, can take thousands of points of damage on the approach, but once it's in under the enemy's guns and letting loose with its 253 DPS, it doesn't matter much. -Electrofreak Discoverer of the Missile Damage Formula

ELECTR0FREAK Eye of God	Posted - 2005.08.25 04:37:00 - [11] Edited by: ELECTR0FREAK on 25/08/2005 04:37:31 Garreck... thats the most ridiculous point ever. I could hop into a Thorax, and fly into HED and attack battleships until I'm lucky enough to catch one with a crappy setup and kill it. I could then repeat this numerous times, losing several Thorax in the process. This doesn't mean the Thorax is on par with other cruisers. It means I'm using a Thorax over and over to attack larger ships. Just because you see a bunch of Thorax losses on a killboard doesn't mean it sucks, it means that because its overpowered and thus so popular, its being overused. Killboards have no place in this arguement. Also, god, if you'd read any of my bazillion other threads, you'd know that a Thorax, approaching with a MWD and a 1600mm plate, can take thousands of points of damage on the approach, but once it's in under the enemy's guns and letting loose with its 253 DPS, it doesn't matter much. Discoverer of the Missile Damage Formula
ELECTR0FREAK	Posted - 2005.08.25 04:48:00 - [12] Edited by: ELECTR0FREAK on 25/08/2005 04:50:51 The Thorax was a problem before plates were ever an issue. The buff to them just exacerbated it. The PROBLEM is that the Thorax wins 170 fittings-free DPS. It has more drone bay than its carrier variant (Vexor), more or less making it worthless (8 heavy drones > 15 medium DPS wise, not to mention it takes some skill to get 15 mediums). What the Thorax needs. Its drone bay swapped with the Brutix... this makes the Brutix more of a drone BC (and means that its fittings problems aren't so bad as it can get more firepower and still be tankable). The Thorax then needs a small speed or agility increase and it's balanced. The Maller has a bit of Plate Syndrome itself but if the fittings get fixed it'll be on par with the new Thorax and other cruisers. NOTE: It will still be able to do around 170 DPS with Light Neutrons fitted. Thats about twice what most other cruisers do in DPS, not something you should be complaining about. AND PEOPLE STOP SAYING "Don't nerf the 'Rax, buff all other cruisers" BECAUSE IT WONT HAPPEN. Thats a major game mechanic overhaul. If you know anything about game design you'll know its NOT feasible, when a few tweaks can be made to bring everything in line. -Electrofreak Discoverer of the Missile Damage Formula
ELECTR0FREAK Eye of God	Posted - 2005.08.25 04:48:00 - [13] Edited by: ELECTR0FREAK on 25/08/2005 04:50:51 The Thorax was a problem before plates were ever an issue. The buff to them just exacerbated it. The PROBLEM is that the Thorax wins 170 fittings-free DPS. It has more drone bay than its carrier variant (Vexor), more or less making it worthless (8 heavy drones > 15 medium DPS wise, not to mention it takes some skill to get 15 mediums). What the Thorax needs. Its drone bay swapped with the Brutix... this makes the Brutix more of a drone BC (and means that its fittings problems aren't so bad as it can get more firepower and still be tankable). The Thorax then needs a small speed or agility increase and it's balanced. The Maller has a bit of Plate Syndrome itself but if the fittings get fixed it'll be on par with the new Thorax and other cruisers. NOTE: It will still be able to do around 170 DPS with Light Neutrons fitted. Thats about twice what most other cruisers do in DPS, not something you should be complaining about. AND PEOPLE STOP SAYING "Don't nerf the 'Rax, buff all other cruisers" BECAUSE IT WONT HAPPEN. Thats a major game mechanic overhaul. If you know anything about game design you'll know its NOT feasible, when a few tweaks can be made to bring everything in line. Discoverer of the Missile Damage Formula
ELECTR0FREAK	Posted - 2005.08.25 04:55:00 - [14] Originally by: Garreck Edited by: Garreck on 25/08/2005 04:52:48 Originally by: ELECTR0FREAK The Thorax was a problem before plates were ever an issue. The buff to them just exacerbated it. No, it wasn't. I used to get made fun of for flying the thorax in combat. The thorax was a pvp joke...not because it wasn't good, of course, but because people didn't have the stones to ride out the damage and get in effective range. 1600 plate allowed them to do that with far less risk, so suddenly the thorax leaps forward as a great pvp ship. You're so full of it! -Electrofreak Discoverer of the Missile Damage Formula
ELECTR0FREAK Eye of God	Posted - 2005.08.25 04:55:00 - [15] Originally by: Garreck Edited by: Garreck on 25/08/2005 04:52:48 Originally by: ELECTR0FREAK The Thorax was a problem before plates were ever an issue. The buff to them just exacerbated it. No, it wasn't. I used to get made fun of for flying the thorax in combat. The thorax was a pvp joke...not because it wasn't good, of course, but because people didn't have the stones to ride out the damage and get in effective range. 1600 plate allowed them to do that with far less risk, so suddenly the thorax leaps forward as a great pvp ship. You're so full of it! Discoverer of the Missile Damage Formula
ELECTR0FREAK	Posted - 2005.08.25 05:04:00 - [16] Edited by: ELECTR0FREAK on 25/08/2005 05:05:57 Originally by: Ravenge Originally by: Garreck bangs head on desk, screaming /me pets Garreck No matter how many times you point out things, their not going to listen.. electro is still crying about the missle changes and wants everyone else to suffer also he has freely admitted he hasn't done any pvp of TQ. And when you presnt him with any form of argument, he ignores it or picks out tiny bits to try and argue against. And W0lverine is just jumping on any bandwagon he can find. Ah yes. That solo kill mail for Zarquon Beeblebrox in my mailbox must be an apparition. All the other random group kill mails in my mailbox must be imaginary as well. And all the frigate fleets where I've been flying Covert Ops, must have been my imagination. Yeah, I know nothing of PVP. How about this. Come out to Impass and I'll happily fight you. And, you sir, are an idiot. Go read that thread where it was a vote on whether missile changes shafted the Caldari or not. I said NO. But the missile boats (such as the Cerberus, which puts out less DPS with Scourge than your Rax's DRONE BAY) do. Come back when you know what you're talking about instead of trolling. -Electrofreak Discoverer of the Missile Damage Formula
ELECTR0FREAK Eye of God	Posted - 2005.08.25 05:04:00 - [17] Edited by: ELECTR0FREAK on 25/08/2005 05:10:06 Originally by: Ravenge Originally by: Garreck bangs head on desk, screaming /me pets Garreck No matter how many times you point out things, their not going to listen.. electro is still crying about the missle changes and wants everyone else to suffer also he has freely admitted he hasn't done any pvp of TQ. And when you presnt him with any form of argument, he ignores it or picks out tiny bits to try and argue against. And W0lverine is just jumping on any bandwagon he can find. Ah yes. That solo kill mail for Zarquon Beeblebrox in my mailbox must be an apparition. (And the 101 mill bounty me and some of my buddies got when we podded her, yep, that must not be real either.) All the other random group kill mails in my mailbox must be imaginary as well. And all the frigate fleets where I've been flying Covert Ops, must have been my imagination. Yeah, I know nothing of PVP. How about this. Come out to Impass and I'll happily fight you. And, you sir, are an idiot. Go read that thread where it was a vote on whether missile changes shafted the Caldari or not. I said NO. But the missile boats (such as the Cerberus, which puts out less DPS with Scourge than your Rax's DRONE BAY) do. Come back when you know what you're talking about instead of trolling. Discoverer of the Missile Damage Formula
ELECTR0FREAK	Posted - 2005.08.25 05:11:00 - [18] I love it when people run out of reasoning and have nothing less to do but flame. -Electrofreak Discoverer of the Missile Damage Formula
ELECTR0FREAK Eye of God	Posted - 2005.08.25 05:11:00 - [19] I love it when people run out of reasoning and have nothing less to do but flame. Discoverer of the Missile Damage Formula
ELECTR0FREAK	Posted - 2005.08.25 05:22:00 - [20] Edited by: ELECTR0FREAK on 25/08/2005 05:22:27 Originally by: Garreck Originally by: ELECTR0FREAK I love it when people run out of reasoning and have nothing less to do but flame. Is that why you told me I'm full of it? I've been flying a thorax more than any other ship for the past...oh, 20 months or so. I love cruisers, I buy into the "specialize" philosphy, and the thorax is the best gallente cruiser...so here I am. I'm presenting arguments based on a whole lot of combat experience in various setups and against various setups. I'm willing to concede that a 1600mm plate thorax is too powerful. What nobody else seems to be willing to concede that if you nerf the offensive firepower of a thorax rather than fixing the plate, you're only going to set up the NEXT overpowered 1600mm plate fitted cruiser. One thing I'll NEVER concede is that a non-plated thorax overpowers all other top-tier cruisers. More "sheer firepower?" Sure. But there is so much more to the combat equation. For instance, how damn close you have to be to use that firepower, and how much damage can be done to your mwd-ing fat ass in the mean time. I'm simply calling a bluff. I highly doubt you got laughed at for flying a Thorax prior to the Plate buff. It SOUNDS like you're saying that the plate brought it up to par with the other cruisers... a suggestion I find totally ridiculous. Rax has always been a big fish in the cruiser pond. Remember dual MWDs? -Electrofreak Discoverer of the Missile Damage Formula

ELECTR0FREAK Eye of God	Posted - 2005.08.25 05:22:00 - [21] Edited by: ELECTR0FREAK on 25/08/2005 05:28:17 Edited by: ELECTR0FREAK on 25/08/2005 05:22:27 Originally by: Garreck Originally by: ELECTR0FREAK I love it when people run out of reasoning and have nothing less to do but flame. Is that why you told me I'm full of it? I've been flying a thorax more than any other ship for the past...oh, 20 months or so. I love cruisers, I buy into the "specialize" philosphy, and the thorax is the best gallente cruiser...so here I am. I'm presenting arguments based on a whole lot of combat experience in various setups and against various setups. I'm willing to concede that a 1600mm plate thorax is too powerful. What nobody else seems to be willing to concede that if you nerf the offensive firepower of a thorax rather than fixing the plate, you're only going to set up the NEXT overpowered 1600mm plate fitted cruiser. One thing I'll NEVER concede is that a non-plated thorax overpowers all other top-tier cruisers. More "sheer firepower?" Sure. But there is so much more to the combat equation. For instance, how damn close you have to be to use that firepower, and how much damage can be done to your mwd-ing fat ass in the mean time. I'm simply calling a bluff. I highly doubt you got laughed at for flying a Thorax prior to the Plate buff. It SOUNDED like you're saying that the plate brought it up to par with the other cruisers... a suggestion I find totally ridiculous. In any case, Rax has always been a big fish in the cruiser pond. Remember dual MWDs? The problem is plates AND the drone bay. Even without a plate the drones just make the Rax sorta stupid. For one thing, they remove a lot of skill involved in flying the ship. Its not like it takes a lot of skill to have 8 heavy drones doing 170 DPS, and it sure as hell doesn't impact your ship setup. Removing 100 dronebay removes about 85 DPS from a ship that easily gets 260 with 8 heavies AND Light Neuts fitted. Upwards of 290 DPS is possible without a plate and Heavy Electrons. YES the Thorax is a close range ship, and it should win close range fights. The problem is giving it SO much DPS that it can easily tank an approach on another cruiser long enough to WTFPWN it once it gets under 10km. THAT is the problem. It SHOULDN'T be winning scenarios under 30km. The problem is that it's getting away with that by taking advantage of overpowered plates (fittingswise) and free DPS through its drone bay allowing it to do damage and tank at the same time, something which other cruisers aren't very capable of. Discoverer of the Missile Damage Formula
ELECTR0FREAK	Posted - 2005.08.25 05:31:00 - [22] True that the Rupture benefitted most from Dual MWDs, but the Thorax vs any other ship was ridiculous. -Electrofreak Discoverer of the Missile Damage Formula
ELECTR0FREAK Eye of God	Posted - 2005.08.25 05:31:00 - [23] True that the Rupture benefitted most from Dual MWDs, but the Thorax vs any other ship was ridiculous. Discoverer of the Missile Damage Formula
ELECTR0FREAK	Posted - 2005.08.30 01:43:00 - [24] In all seriousness, reducing the drone bay simply pulls the Rax down from a ship that can easily do over 250 DPS with a plate fitted to one that does around 180 DPS with a plate fitted. Tell me any other cruiser that can fit a 1600mm plate and still put out that kind of damage at ANY range. -Electrofreak Discoverer of the Missile Damage Formula
ELECTR0FREAK Eye of God	Posted - 2005.08.30 01:43:00 - [25] In all seriousness, reducing the drone bay simply pulls the Rax down from a ship that can easily do over 250 DPS with a plate fitted to one that does around 180 DPS with a plate fitted. Tell me any other cruiser that can fit a 1600mm plate and still put out that kind of damage at ANY range. Discoverer of the Missile Damage Formula
ELECTR0FREAK Eye of God	Posted - 2005.08.30 01:43:00 - [26] In all seriousness, reducing the drone bay simply pulls the Rax down from a ship that can easily do over 250 DPS with a plate fitted to one that does around 180 DPS with a plate fitted. Tell me any other cruiser that can fit a 1600mm plate and still put out that kind of damage at ANY range. Discoverer of the Missile Damage Formula
ELECTR0FREAK	Posted - 2005.08.30 04:59:00 - [27] Originally by: Ravenge Originally by: ELECTR0FREAK In all seriousness, reducing the drone bay simply pulls the Rax down from a ship that can easily do over 250 DPS with a plate fitted to one that does around 180 DPS with a plate fitted. Tell me any other cruiser that can fit a 1600mm plate and still put out that kind of damage at ANY range. First of all take the plate out of the equation.. I know you seem to ignore the posts from people who fly plated raxs who state its the plate that overpowers it. Also define any range.. as no matter how hard i try.. i can't quite get my rax to do 250 dps at 100km, maybe i'm missing something.. at the most a rax is effective up to 20km (unless your running an officer warp scrambler) It would be interesting to see how the 200dps ruppy handles a non plated rax... at lets say since its at ANY range.. starting 30km apart.. Don't talk to me as if I don't know what I'm talking about. I flew a plated Rax into PVP last week, engaged a fleet of 28 IRON warships (with 6 friendlies), a dozen of which were firing on me, and still almost managed to bag a Crow (Hi Sorja ... I swear, 2 more seconds...) 4 heavy drones reduces a Thorax's DPS from 260 with a plate and light neuts (only 90 of that DPS is from the neuts, the other 170 is the drones) to a more reasonable 175. Add in the fact that the 85 from the drones is VERY flexible firepower, and the fact that Blasters ALREADY do high DPS because of their short range, and you really have no excuse to complain. Nowhere did I say the Rax could do 250 DPS at 100km. Now you're trying to put words in my mouth, and it's a sad attempt. A Ruppie can't do 200 DPS with over 5k HP. And you know what, it SHOULD beat the Rax at longer ranges. ITS A LONG RANGE SHIP. The Rax SHOULD win at close range engagements. ITS A SHORT RANGE SHIP. Don't cry to me that its not overpowered because it can't beat a MWD-fitted long range ship when the fight starts at long range. Thats a specific scenario, and even then the Rax has the ability to warp off if its being out ranged (that's the downside to having a ship with range) and then return back on a playing field of it's choice. The issue is at hand that the Thorax is supposed to be the king of short-range, but its high DPS (at no fitting cost), easy plateability, ability to manipulate the battle well with its speed, and the fact that it's way too good at too many things means that it's overpowered. Saying that a Rax will lose to a MWDing Ruppie with Howies and damage mods when the fight takes place past 30km, and then trying to use that to support your claim that the Rax isn't overpowered is ridiculous. I might as well claim that the Cerberus MUST be better than any other HAC simply because it has the ability to use FoF missiles versus ECM jamming. Its a ridiculous blanket statement because the Cerberus is obviously an inferor HAC except in VERY specific situations. Just because a Cerb could fire back at a Scorpion and a Zealot can't doesn't mean it will win. Exactly the same as the fact that just because a Ruppie can fire on a Thorax while it can't fire back doesn't mean it will win. If its within range of a 20km scrambler, the T-Rax's drones will allow it to deal back equal damage if not more. Otherwise, the Rax can leave the engagement and return at a closer combat range. Citing a specific circumstance is not an adequate reason for claiming that the Thorax is balanced. It can be used in an attempt to support an arguement but makes for a very weak foundation to your cause. Debating 101 folks. The issue here is, the Thorax is way too versatile and powerful for its own good. It has way too many pluses and too few minuses. It's been proven time and time again, but those peope with 400k skillpoints in Drones, no cruiser and gunnery skills, but still manage to easily outdamage AND outank those much more skilled players in other ships is a definate indicator of a problem. -Electrofreak Discoverer of the Missile Damage Formula
ELECTR0FREAK Eye of God	Posted - 2005.08.30 04:59:00 - [28] Originally by: Ravenge Originally by: ELECTR0FREAK In all seriousness, reducing the drone bay simply pulls the Rax down from a ship that can easily do over 250 DPS with a plate fitted to one that does around 180 DPS with a plate fitted. Tell me any other cruiser that can fit a 1600mm plate and still put out that kind of damage at ANY range. First of all take the plate out of the equation.. I know you seem to ignore the posts from people who fly plated raxs who state its the plate that overpowers it. Also define any range.. as no matter how hard i try.. i can't quite get my rax to do 250 dps at 100km, maybe i'm missing something.. at the most a rax is effective up to 20km (unless your running an officer warp scrambler) It would be interesting to see how the 200dps ruppy handles a non plated rax... at lets say since its at ANY range.. starting 30km apart.. Don't talk to me as if I don't know what I'm talking about. I flew a plated Rax into PVP last week, engaged a fleet of 28 IRON warships (with 6 friendlies), a dozen of which were firing on me, and still almost managed to bag a Crow (Hi Sorja ... I swear, 2 more seconds...) 4 heavy drones reduces a Thorax's DPS from 260 with a plate and light neuts (only 90 of that DPS is from the neuts, the other 170 is the drones) to a more reasonable 175. Add in the fact that the 85 from the drones is VERY flexible firepower, and the fact that Blasters ALREADY do high DPS because of their short range, and you really have no excuse to complain. Nowhere did I say the Rax could do 250 DPS at 100km. Now you're trying to put words in my mouth, and it's a sad attempt. A Ruppie can't do 200 DPS with over 5k HP. And you know what, it SHOULD beat the Rax at longer ranges. ITS A LONG RANGE SHIP. The Rax SHOULD win at close range engagements. ITS A SHORT RANGE SHIP. Don't cry to me that its not overpowered because it can't beat a MWD-fitted long range ship when the fight starts at long range. Thats a specific scenario, and even then the Rax has the ability to warp off if its being out ranged (that's the downside to having a ship with range) and then return back on a playing field of it's choice. The issue is at hand that the Thorax is supposed to be the king of short-range, but its high DPS (at no fitting cost), easy plateability, ability to manipulate the battle well with its speed, and the fact that it's way too good at too many things means that it's overpowered. Saying that a Rax will lose to a MWDing Ruppie with Howies and damage mods when the fight takes place past 30km, and then trying to use that to support your claim that the Rax isn't overpowered is ridiculous. I might as well claim that the Cerberus MUST be better than any other HAC simply because it has the ability to use FoF missiles versus ECM jamming. Its a ridiculous blanket statement because the Cerberus is obviously an inferor HAC except in VERY specific situations. Just because a Cerb could fire back at a Scorpion and a Zealot can't doesn't mean it will win. Exactly the same as the fact that just because a Ruppie can fire on a Thorax while it can't fire back doesn't mean it will win. If its within range of a 20km scrambler, the T-Rax's drones will allow it to deal back equal damage if not more. Otherwise, the Rax can leave the engagement and return at a closer combat range. Citing a specific circumstance is not an adequate reason for claiming that the Thorax is balanced. It can be used in an attempt to support an arguement but makes for a very weak foundation to your cause. Debating 101 folks. The issue here is, the Thorax is way too versatile and powerful for its own good. It has way too many pluses and too few minuses. It's been proven time and time again, but those peope with 400k skillpoints in Drones, no cruiser and gunnery skills, but still manage to easily outdamage AND outank those much more skilled players in other ships is a definate indicator of a problem. Discoverer of the Missile Damage Formula
ELECTR0FREAK Eye of God	Posted - 2005.08.30 04:59:00 - [29] Originally by: Ravenge Originally by: ELECTR0FREAK In all seriousness, reducing the drone bay simply pulls the Rax down from a ship that can easily do over 250 DPS with a plate fitted to one that does around 180 DPS with a plate fitted. Tell me any other cruiser that can fit a 1600mm plate and still put out that kind of damage at ANY range. First of all take the plate out of the equation.. I know you seem to ignore the posts from people who fly plated raxs who state its the plate that overpowers it. Also define any range.. as no matter how hard i try.. i can't quite get my rax to do 250 dps at 100km, maybe i'm missing something.. at the most a rax is effective up to 20km (unless your running an officer warp scrambler) It would be interesting to see how the 200dps ruppy handles a non plated rax... at lets say since its at ANY range.. starting 30km apart.. Don't talk to me as if I don't know what I'm talking about. I flew a plated Rax into PVP last week, engaged a fleet of 28 IRON warships (with 6 friendlies), a dozen of which were firing on me, and still almost managed to bag a Crow (Hi Sorja ... I swear, 2 more seconds...) 4 heavy drones reduces a Thorax's DPS from 260 with a plate and light neuts (only 90 of that DPS is from the neuts, the other 170 is the drones) to a more reasonable 175. Add in the fact that the 85 from the drones is VERY flexible firepower, and the fact that Blasters ALREADY do high DPS because of their short range, and you really have no excuse to complain. Nowhere did I say the Rax could do 250 DPS at 100km. Now you're trying to put words in my mouth, and it's a sad attempt. A Ruppie can't do 200 DPS with over 5k HP. And you know what, it SHOULD beat the Rax at longer ranges. ITS A LONG RANGE SHIP. The Rax SHOULD win at close range engagements. ITS A SHORT RANGE SHIP. Don't cry to me that its not overpowered because it can't beat a MWD-fitted long range ship when the fight starts at long range. Thats a specific scenario, and even then the Rax has the ability to warp off if its being out ranged (that's the downside to having a ship with range) and then return back on a playing field of it's choice. The issue is at hand that the Thorax is supposed to be the king of short-range, but its high DPS (at no fitting cost), easy plateability, ability to manipulate the battle well with its speed, and the fact that it's way too good at too many things means that it's overpowered. Saying that a Rax will lose to a MWDing Ruppie with Howies and damage mods when the fight takes place past 30km, and then trying to use that to support your claim that the Rax isn't overpowered is ridiculous. I might as well claim that the Cerberus MUST be better than any other HAC simply because it has the ability to use FoF missiles versus ECM jamming. Its a ridiculous blanket statement because the Cerberus is obviously an inferor HAC except in VERY specific situations. Just because a Cerb could fire back at a Scorpion and a Zealot can't doesn't mean it will win. Exactly the same as the fact that just because a Ruppie can fire on a Thorax while it can't fire back doesn't mean it will win. If its within range of a 20km scrambler, the T-Rax's drones will allow it to deal back equal damage if not more. Otherwise, the Rax can leave the engagement and return at a closer combat range. Citing a specific circumstance is not an adequate reason for claiming that the Thorax is balanced. It can be used in an attempt to support an arguement but makes for a very weak foundation to your cause. Debating 101 folks. The issue here is, the Thorax is way too versatile and powerful for its own good. It has way too many pluses and too few minuses. It's been proven time and time again, but those peope with 400k skillpoints in Drones, no cruiser and gunnery skills, but still manage to easily outdamage AND outank those much more skilled players in other ships is a definate indicator of a problem. Discoverer of the Missile Damage Formula
ELECTR0FREAK	Posted - 2005.09.05 04:05:00 - [30] Edited by: ELECTR0FREAK on 05/09/2005 04:13:02 Please explain to me how a Thorax without a plate is any weaker than any OTHER cruiser without a plate? It has 2025 HP compared to the average 2050 that other lvl 3 Cruisers have. Not to mention it does the majority of its damage through its drones and thus can easily use those 5 low slots for tanking while still having ridiculous damage output. The foundation of your arguement is built upon sand. Edit- And sorry Stuart bud, a medium smartbomb will take over 40 seconds to kill the drones. During that time the drones can do over 6800 points of damage to the target. And Jammers don't work if the Thorax has its drones attack you before you jam it. The problem with the Thorax is that it has way too many advantages for its own good. 8 Heavy drones and the rampant use of 1600mm plates are the reason. -Electrofreak Discoverer of the Missile Damage Formula

ELECTR0FREAK Eye of God	Posted - 2005.09.05 04:05:00 - [31] Edited by: ELECTR0FREAK on 05/09/2005 04:13:02 Please explain to me how a Thorax without a plate is any weaker than any OTHER cruiser without a plate? It has 2025 HP compared to the average 2050 that other lvl 3 Cruisers have. Not to mention it does the majority of its damage through its drones and thus can easily use those 5 low slots for tanking while still having ridiculous damage output. The foundation of your arguement is built upon sand. Edit- And sorry Stuart bud, a medium smartbomb will take over 40 seconds to kill the drones. During that time the drones can do over 6800 points of damage to the target. And Jammers don't work if the Thorax has its drones attack you before you jam it. The problem with the Thorax is that it has way too many advantages for its own good. 8 Heavy drones and the rampant use of 1600mm plates are the reason. Discoverer of the Missile Damage Formula
ELECTR0FREAK Eye of God	Posted - 2005.09.05 04:05:00 - [32] Edited by: ELECTR0FREAK on 05/09/2005 04:13:02 Please explain to me how a Thorax without a plate is any weaker than any OTHER cruiser without a plate? It has 2025 HP compared to the average 2050 that other lvl 3 Cruisers have. Not to mention it does the majority of its damage through its drones and thus can easily use those 5 low slots for tanking while still having ridiculous damage output. The foundation of your arguement is built upon sand. Edit- And sorry Stuart bud, a medium smartbomb will take over 40 seconds to kill the drones. During that time the drones can do over 6800 points of damage to the target. And Jammers don't work if the Thorax has its drones attack you before you jam it. The problem with the Thorax is that it has way too many advantages for its own good. 8 Heavy drones and the rampant use of 1600mm plates are the reason. Discoverer of the Missile Damage Formula
ELECTR0FREAK Eye of God	Posted - 2005.09.06 01:09:00 - [33] Edited by: ELECTR0FREAK on 06/09/2005 01:11:06 Nobody is saying its a win button we're saying it has way too many advantages and too few disadvantages. It can fit out with a tank while still doing twice the DPS of other cruisers just through its drones. No other Tier 1 cruiser can manage that. 100m3 drone bay simply puts the Rax more in place when it comes to advantages versus disadvantages. 169 free DPS with no fitting penalty is pretty stupid. 85 free DPS is more reasonable. That's still the damage output of a typical T1 Cruiser. In addition to that the pilot can still choose to have over 5k HP with a plate and add 95 more DPS through light Neutron blasters or over 150 DPS with heavy blasters and damage mods. Thats a more reasonable tradeoff. Discoverer of the Missile Damage Formula
ELECTR0FREAK Eye of God	Posted - 2005.09.06 01:09:00 - [34] Edited by: ELECTR0FREAK on 06/09/2005 01:11:06 Nobody is saying its a win button we're saying it has way too many advantages and too few disadvantages. It can fit out with a tank while still doing twice the DPS of other cruisers just through its drones. No other Tier 1 cruiser can manage that. 100m3 drone bay simply puts the Rax more in place when it comes to advantages versus disadvantages. 169 free DPS with no fitting penalty is pretty stupid. 85 free DPS is more reasonable. That's still the damage output of a typical T1 Cruiser. In addition to that the pilot can still choose to have over 5k HP with a plate and add 95 more DPS through light Neutron blasters or over 150 DPS with heavy blasters and damage mods. Thats a more reasonable tradeoff. Discoverer of the Missile Damage Formula
ELECTR0FREAK Eye of God	Posted - 2005.09.06 01:15:00 - [35] I dare. Whatcha gonna do about it? Discoverer of the Missile Damage Formula
ELECTR0FREAK Eye of God	Posted - 2005.09.06 01:15:00 - [36] I dare. Whatcha gonna do about it? Discoverer of the Missile Damage Formula
ELECTR0FREAK Eye of God	Posted - 2005.09.06 01:27:00 - [37] Originally by: Ravenge Originally by: ELECTR0FREAK Edited by: ELECTR0FREAK on 06/09/2005 01:11:06 Nobody is saying its a win button we're saying it has way too many advantages and too few disadvantages. It can fit out with a tank while still doing twice the DPS of other cruisers just through its drones. No other Tier 1 cruiser can manage that. 100m3 drone bay simply puts the Rax more in place when it comes to advantages versus disadvantages. 169 free DPS with no fitting penalty is pretty stupid. 85 free DPS is more reasonable. That's still the damage output of a typical T1 Cruiser. In addition to that the pilot can still choose to have over 5k HP with a plate and add 95 more DPS through light Neutron blasters or over 150 DPS with heavy blasters and damage mods. Thats a more reasonable tradeoff. 169 free dps... come now, stop making things up... to get that 169 dps.. you need heavy drones skill at lvl 4, drones skill and level 5 and drone interfacing at lvl 3... Flying a rax doesn't give you this instant damage you need to train those skills up first. Plus if the oversized plate issue gets sorted out, you won't have to worry too much about the big bad thorax. Thats hardly difficult to get. Especially when you dont have to worry about any gunnery or missile skills to achieve that DPS. Discoverer of the Missile Damage Formula
ELECTR0FREAK Eye of God	Posted - 2005.09.06 01:27:00 - [38] Originally by: Ravenge Originally by: ELECTR0FREAK Edited by: ELECTR0FREAK on 06/09/2005 01:11:06 Nobody is saying its a win button we're saying it has way too many advantages and too few disadvantages. It can fit out with a tank while still doing twice the DPS of other cruisers just through its drones. No other Tier 1 cruiser can manage that. 100m3 drone bay simply puts the Rax more in place when it comes to advantages versus disadvantages. 169 free DPS with no fitting penalty is pretty stupid. 85 free DPS is more reasonable. That's still the damage output of a typical T1 Cruiser. In addition to that the pilot can still choose to have over 5k HP with a plate and add 95 more DPS through light Neutron blasters or over 150 DPS with heavy blasters and damage mods. Thats a more reasonable tradeoff. 169 free dps... come now, stop making things up... to get that 169 dps.. you need heavy drones skill at lvl 4, drones skill and level 5 and drone interfacing at lvl 3... Flying a rax doesn't give you this instant damage you need to train those skills up first. Plus if the oversized plate issue gets sorted out, you won't have to worry too much about the big bad thorax. Thats hardly difficult to get. Especially when you dont have to worry about any gunnery or missile skills to achieve that DPS. Discoverer of the Missile Damage Formula
ELECTR0FREAK	Posted - 2005.09.06 01:46:00 - [39] Edited by: ELECTR0FREAK on 06/09/2005 01:47:49 Originally by: Ravenge Originally by: ELECTR0FREAK Thats hardly difficult to get. Especially when you dont have to worry about any gunnery or missile skills to achieve that DPS. Keep going as your uber set up needs a little more then drone skills.. you can't fit 1600 mm plate and active hardeners with just lvl 3 gallente cruiser and drone skills. your looking at a couple of months training to get the uber tanking and dps you keep spouting about.. maybe a bit less if you train the learning skills... but you also have to add them to the training time. Dude, you're being ridiculous. You need Hull Upgrades 3 and Mechanic I for a 1600mm plate. You don't even need medium turret skills because you're fitting frigate blasters. Heavy Drones 5 is 226k SP and Heavy Drones 4 is 226k SP. Drone Interfacing 3 is what, 45k SP? Heck, you can still pull 160 DPS out of a Thorax's drones using only Heavy Drones 3, so you can manage it all with about 320k SP in Drones. Compare that to the amount of work you need to put into Missile or Gunnery skills. Use your head man. With only a few hundred SP a Rax easily surpasses any other cruiser with the same amount of invested skills. -Electrofreak Discoverer of the Missile Damage Formula
ELECTR0FREAK Eye of God	Posted - 2005.09.06 01:46:00 - [40] Edited by: ELECTR0FREAK on 06/09/2005 01:47:49 Originally by: Ravenge Originally by: ELECTR0FREAK Thats hardly difficult to get. Especially when you dont have to worry about any gunnery or missile skills to achieve that DPS. Keep going as your uber set up needs a little more then drone skills.. you can't fit 1600 mm plate and active hardeners with just lvl 3 gallente cruiser and drone skills. your looking at a couple of months training to get the uber tanking and dps you keep spouting about.. maybe a bit less if you train the learning skills... but you also have to add them to the training time. Dude, you're being ridiculous. You need Hull Upgrades 3 and Mechanic I for a 1600mm plate. You don't even need medium turret skills because you're fitting frigate blasters. Heavy Drones 5 is 226k SP and Heavy Drones 4 is 226k SP. Drone Interfacing 3 is what, 45k SP? Heck, you can still pull 160 DPS out of a Thorax's drones using only Heavy Drones 3, so you can manage it all with about 320k SP in Drones. Compare that to the amount of work you need to put into Missile or Gunnery skills. Use your head man. With only a few hundred SP a Rax easily surpasses any other cruiser with the same amount of invested skills. Discoverer of the Missile Damage Formula

ELECTR0FREAK Eye of God	Posted - 2005.09.06 01:46:00 - [41] Edited by: ELECTR0FREAK on 06/09/2005 01:47:49 Originally by: Ravenge Originally by: ELECTR0FREAK Thats hardly difficult to get. Especially when you dont have to worry about any gunnery or missile skills to achieve that DPS. Keep going as your uber set up needs a little more then drone skills.. you can't fit 1600 mm plate and active hardeners with just lvl 3 gallente cruiser and drone skills. your looking at a couple of months training to get the uber tanking and dps you keep spouting about.. maybe a bit less if you train the learning skills... but you also have to add them to the training time. Dude, you're being ridiculous. You need Hull Upgrades 3 and Mechanic I for a 1600mm plate. You don't even need medium turret skills because you're fitting frigate blasters. Heavy Drones 5 is 226k SP and Heavy Drones 4 is 226k SP. Drone Interfacing 3 is what, 45k SP? Heck, you can still pull 160 DPS out of a Thorax's drones using only Heavy Drones 3, so you can manage it all with about 320k SP in Drones. Compare that to the amount of work you need to put into Missile or Gunnery skills. Use your head man. With only a few hundred SP a Rax easily surpasses any other cruiser with the same amount of invested skills. Discoverer of the Missile Damage Formula
ELECTR0FREAK	Posted - 2005.09.06 02:58:00 - [42] Edited by: ELECTR0FREAK on 06/09/2005 03:09:08 ... 1 skillpoint takes the same amount of time to train no matter what the rank. Its attributes alone that dictate how long a single skillpoint takes to train. The rank is a multiplier for the amount of skillpoints a skill increases by per level. Please figure out how the system works before you go spouting bull. I'd like to see a bare skill point Maller, Rupture, or Moa do better than a bare skill point Thorax. No other cruiser can do so much DPS while tanking so well at under a million SP. If the Thorax takes so many skill points to use effectively, prove it to me. Also, please calculate the amount of time it takes for 4 medium drones to go through 8 heavy drones, and go ahead and tell me the amount of damage those 8 heavy drones will do to a target in that time. Once you've figured that out, get back to me. Edit- and btw... a 1600mm plate IS the plate-Rax's tank. 5k HP with 4 hardners running is no simple task to break through... especially when the Rax is doing 250 damage per second to you. -Electrofreak Discoverer of the Missile Damage Formula
ELECTR0FREAK Eye of God	Posted - 2005.09.06 02:58:00 - [43] Edited by: ELECTR0FREAK on 06/09/2005 03:09:08 ... 1 skillpoint takes the same amount of time to train no matter what the rank. Its attributes alone that dictate how long a single skillpoint takes to train. The rank is a multiplier for the amount of skillpoints a skill increases by per level. Please figure out how the system works before you go spouting bull. I'd like to see a bare skill point Maller, Rupture, or Moa do better than a bare skill point Thorax. No other cruiser can do so much DPS while tanking so well at under a million SP. If the Thorax takes so many skill points to use effectively, prove it to me. Also, please calculate the amount of time it takes for 4 medium drones to go through 8 heavy drones, and go ahead and tell me the amount of damage those 8 heavy drones will do to a target in that time. Once you've figured that out, get back to me. Edit- and btw... a 1600mm plate IS the plate-Rax's tank. 5k HP with 4 hardners running is no simple task to break through... especially when the Rax is doing 250 damage per second to you. Discoverer of the Missile Damage Formula
ELECTR0FREAK Eye of God	Posted - 2005.09.06 02:58:00 - [44] Edited by: ELECTR0FREAK on 06/09/2005 03:09:08 ... 1 skillpoint takes the same amount of time to train no matter what the rank. Its attributes alone that dictate how long a single skillpoint takes to train. The rank is a multiplier for the amount of skillpoints a skill increases by per level. Please figure out how the system works before you go spouting bull. I'd like to see a bare skill point Maller, Rupture, or Moa do better than a bare skill point Thorax. No other cruiser can do so much DPS while tanking so well at under a million SP. If the Thorax takes so many skill points to use effectively, prove it to me. Also, please calculate the amount of time it takes for 4 medium drones to go through 8 heavy drones, and go ahead and tell me the amount of damage those 8 heavy drones will do to a target in that time. Once you've figured that out, get back to me. Edit- and btw... a 1600mm plate IS the plate-Rax's tank. 5k HP with 4 hardners running is no simple task to break through... especially when the Rax is doing 250 damage per second to you. Discoverer of the Missile Damage Formula

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