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| Author | Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 1 post(s) |
 Garreck    |
Posted - 2005.08.23 23:09:00 -
[1]
Wrong. Wrong, wrong, wrong. Aside from the drone bonus on the Vexor (an added bonus when cruisers were beefed up a while back, not an original feature) drones are not even mentioned in the description. Meanwhile, the Thorax description makes mention of blasters and "hordes of drones" to take apart its enemy. Thorax has low grid compared to other cruisers. Thorax has fewer slots compared to cruisers in its class. It makes up for this with "hordes of drones." There are ways to beat thoraxes...and a rupture with tech 2 howies can do it easily...particularly if the thorax is mwd-ing. The thorax needs its superior DoT because it has less time to do that damage in. Plain and simple. Having to run at least 15 seconds through withering fire with mwd on before you can land a single hit is punishing to say the least. Plate almost became a necessity because a non-plated thorax will generally die before it ever gets into blaster range. 1600mm plate means small guns. Small guns means the drones have to take up the burden of damage. Besides, as established, it is the premier drone cruiser of a drone-favoring race. So this is not a problem. Garreck Aeternus Crusade Aku. Soku. Zan. |
 Garreck Amarr Border Defense Consortium Curatores Veritatis Alliance |
Posted - 2005.08.23 23:09:00 -
[2]
Wrong. Wrong, wrong, wrong. Aside from the drone bonus on the Vexor (an added bonus when cruisers were beefed up a while back, not an original feature) drones are not even mentioned in the description. Meanwhile, the Thorax description makes mention of blasters and "hordes of drones" to take apart its enemy. Thorax has low grid compared to other cruisers. Thorax has fewer slots compared to cruisers in its class. It makes up for this with "hordes of drones." There are ways to beat thoraxes...and a rupture with tech 2 howies can do it easily...particularly if the thorax is mwd-ing. The thorax needs its superior DoT because it has less time to do that damage in. Plain and simple. Having to run at least 15 seconds through withering fire with mwd on before you can land a single hit is punishing to say the least. Plate almost became a necessity because a non-plated thorax will generally die before it ever gets into blaster range. 1600mm plate means small guns. Small guns means the drones have to take up the burden of damage. Besides, as established, it is the premier drone cruiser of a drone-favoring race. So this is not a problem. |
 Garreck |
Posted - 2005.08.23 23:23:00 -
[3] Now, j0sephine, you're talking about something completely different. I can at least yield to (if not completely buy into) the idea that battleship-sized plate makes a thorax overpowered. Much like battleship sized afterburners did for certain cruisers. But drones are a thoraxes bread and butter, and this thread makes the rediculous case that its drone capacity should be cut in half. Garreck Aeternus Crusade Aku. Soku. Zan. |
Garreck Amarr Border Defense Consortium Curatores Veritatis Alliance |
Posted - 2005.08.23 23:23:00 -
[4] Edited by: Garreck on 23/08/2005 23:28:32 Now, j0sephine, you're talking about something completely different. I can at least yield to (if not completely buy into) the idea that battleship-sized plate makes a thorax overpowered. Much like battleship sized afterburners did for certain cruisers. But drones are a thoraxes bread and butter, and this thread makes the rediculous case that its drone capacity should be cut in half.
I'm not basing any arguments on bonuses. I'm basing arguments on descriptions. The Vexor is a good, all-round surviveable combat ship. The thorax is a drone boat. Plain and simple. The drone bonus for the vexor actually allowed it to fill that roll better (Vexor was plain garbage before the change) and the mwd bonus allowed the thorax to fill its roll better as well. No, I'm not implying a double-standard. Why not fix the "plate" issue? A common-sense precident has already been set with afterburners and mwd's...so why not with armor plate? I can concede that it makes no sense for a 1600mm plate to have the same effect on the velocity and agility of my thorax as a 400mm plate. If thoraxes stop showing up to combat with battleship size hit-points, everybody is quickly going to see how vulnerable a ship it truly is. |
 Garreck |
Posted - 2005.08.23 23:32:00 -
[5] Edited by: Garreck on 23/08/2005 23:34:29
Ignorance.
She's right. But let's go for quality and nerf the plate instead of nonsensical shortcut and nerf the drones. I can deal with a fragile thorax. I do it all the time now anyway, 'cause frankly I don't like giving up the damage bonuses for medium hybrids. *edit* Besides...nerf the drones on the thorax, and the plate WILL become an issue with another cruiser that steps up as "overpowered." Fix the right thing on the thorax, and we can save a lot of balancing heart-ache in the future. Garreck Aeternus Crusade Aku. Soku. Zan. |
Garreck Amarr Border Defense Consortium Curatores Veritatis Alliance |
Posted - 2005.08.23 23:32:00 -
[6] Edited by: Garreck on 23/08/2005 23:34:29
Ignorance.
She's right. But let's go for quality and nerf the plate instead of nonsensical shortcut and nerf the drones. I can deal with a fragile thorax. I do it all the time now anyway, 'cause frankly I don't like giving up the damage bonuses for medium hybrids. *edit* Besides...nerf the drones on the thorax, and the plate WILL become an issue with another cruiser that steps up as "overpowered." Fix the right thing on the thorax, and we can save a lot of balancing heart-ache in the future. |
 Garreck |
Posted - 2005.08.23 23:58:00 -
[7]
Your example was rediculously overboard and, now that I see your edit, I was right...the comparison was based in ignorance:
The assertion (and it's not mine...it's the ship description) is that the thorax IS the specialized drone carrier. The Vexor doesn't compare, because the Vexor is a teir II cruiser. You can't call one a drone carrier and the other a blaster boat. The thorax is just plain "a better ship." Garreck Aeternus Crusade Aku. Soku. Zan. |
Garreck Amarr Border Defense Consortium Curatores Veritatis Alliance |
Posted - 2005.08.23 23:58:00 -
[8]
Your example was rediculously overboard and, now that I see your edit, I was right...the comparison was based in ignorance:
The assertion (and it's not mine...it's the ship description) is that the thorax IS the specialized drone carrier. The Vexor doesn't compare, because the Vexor is a teir II cruiser. You can't call one a drone carrier and the other a blaster boat. The thorax is just plain "a better ship." |
Garreck |
Posted - 2005.08.24 00:08:00 -
[9]
Halving the drone bay will not fix any balance issues. Plain and simple. If any "nerf" needs to take place, it's the ability of a cruiser to mount battleship sized armor with no penalty. Try this out some time: have an un-plated thorax run at you on mwd from, say, 30km away. Open up with your moa. See what happens. Garreck Aeternus Crusade Aku. Soku. Zan. |
Garreck Amarr Border Defense Consortium Curatores Veritatis Alliance |
Posted - 2005.08.24 00:08:00 -
[10]
Halving the drone bay will not fix any balance issues. Plain and simple. If any "nerf" needs to take place, it's the ability of a cruiser to mount battleship sized armor with no penalty. Try this out some time: have an un-plated thorax run at you on mwd from, say, 30km away. Open up with your moa. See what happens. |
Garreck |
Posted - 2005.08.24 00:19:00 -
[11] Come, now. I could make the case that the moa warps out as well. This is simply a static example so you can see how much damage heavy missiles and medium rails will do to an mwd-ing target. Obviouly "teamwork" is going to come into play where proper combat is concerned. Seriously. Try it. Better still, fit an AB and target painter on the moa...move in the opposite direction, delaying the thorax further still, and making his sig radius all the more rediculously large. My point is that 8 drones don't mean beans if they can't get to you before you blow up the thorax. Furthermore, it's only fair that the thorax have superior DoT, because if it does reach its target, it's got a lot of catching up to do in the damage department. Garreck Aeternus Crusade Aku. Soku. Zan. |
Garreck Amarr Border Defense Consortium Curatores Veritatis Alliance |
Posted - 2005.08.24 00:19:00 -
[12] Come, now. I could make the case that the moa warps out as well. This is simply a static example so you can see how much damage heavy missiles and medium rails will do to an mwd-ing target. Obviouly "teamwork" is going to come into play where proper combat is concerned. Seriously. Try it. Better still, fit an AB and target painter on the moa...move in the opposite direction, delaying the thorax further still, and making his sig radius all the more rediculously large. My point is that 8 drones don't mean beans if they can't get to you before you blow up the thorax. Furthermore, it's only fair that the thorax have superior DoT, because if it does reach its target, it's got a lot of catching up to do in the damage department. |
Garreck |
Posted - 2005.08.24 05:02:00 -
[13] Nomen...your solution is fair, but no less infuriating. All of this "balancing" silliness is fast making every ship the same. Take away a drone-boats drones and give it more grid and gun-based power? Turn it into a maller or Moa? Feh. Fact is...take away the plate, and the thorax is actually quite easy to kill. That doesn't make me like it less, 'cause if you strap on, grit your teeth and just go for it, you can bring sick firpower to bear. It's a high risk, high return vessel. Fix the plate situation and you've got a vessel that has significantly more firepower than any other cruiser...and is significantly more fragile than any other cruiser. It balances, trust me. A non-plated thorax is just too easy to kill, because it's mwd-ing as it approaches. However, put in the effort to actually survive and get close...and you get your amazing rewards. Garreck Aeternus Crusade Aku. Soku. Zan. |
Garreck Amarr Border Defense Consortium Curatores Veritatis Alliance |
Posted - 2005.08.24 05:02:00 -
[14] Nomen...your solution is fair, but no less infuriating. All of this "balancing" silliness is fast making every ship the same. Take away a drone-boats drones and give it more grid and gun-based power? Turn it into a maller or Moa? Feh. Fact is...take away the plate, and the thorax is actually quite easy to kill. That doesn't make me like it less, 'cause if you strap on, grit your teeth and just go for it, you can bring sick firpower to bear. It's a high risk, high return vessel. Fix the plate situation and you've got a vessel that has significantly more firepower than any other cruiser...and is significantly more fragile than any other cruiser. It balances, trust me. A non-plated thorax is just too easy to kill, because it's mwd-ing as it approaches. However, put in the effort to actually survive and get close...and you get your amazing rewards. |
 Garreck |
Posted - 2005.08.24 05:19:00 -
[15]
Not sure anybody said the 'rax ain't good. Any short-range gank-kitted cruiser that drops out of warp on top of a battleship is gonna have a good chance to kill it. And if the battleship has NOS, heavy drones, or close range weapons itself, it's gonna do away with said cruiser quite swiftly...thorax or otherwise. Garreck Aeternus Crusade Aku. Soku. Zan. |
Garreck Amarr Border Defense Consortium Curatores Veritatis Alliance |
Posted - 2005.08.24 05:19:00 -
[16]
Not sure anybody said the 'rax ain't good. Any short-range gank-kitted cruiser that drops out of warp on top of a battleship is gonna have a good chance to kill it. And if the battleship has NOS, heavy drones, or close range weapons itself, it's gonna do away with said cruiser quite swiftly...thorax or otherwise. |
 Garreck |
Posted - 2005.08.24 05:30:00 -
[17]
You're forgetting the other side of the equation. As much extra firepower as the thorax has, it's terribly fragile without plate. Plate is the problem, not the thorax. Fitting battleship sized mods to cruisers is like jet-can mining: it was not so much intended to be a common practice. Re: nerfing the ability to fit up-sized afterburners to vessels. I curse the genius who came up with fitting 1600 plate to a thorax. Before that became common practice, the thorax was considered ****-poor for combat by the ignorant masses, and not many folks dared bring up something so rediculous as a "nerf." Only those who dared bring it into combat, specialize in close-range combat, and brave whithering fire on the approach appreciated its usefulness. Now, you can sacrifice a little bit of firpower to turn it into a tank with battleship-class armor and everybody is screaming NERF!! If anything needs nerfed, its the armor. NOT the drones. When you're down to less than half armor by the time your drones and blasters are in effective range, you NEED all that firepower. And that's what makes the thorax so unique, and so much fun. Garreck Aeternus Crusade Aku. Soku. Zan. |
Garreck Amarr Border Defense Consortium Curatores Veritatis Alliance |
Posted - 2005.08.24 05:30:00 -
[18]
You're forgetting the other side of the equation. As much extra firepower as the thorax has, it's terribly fragile without plate. Plate is the problem, not the thorax. Fitting battleship sized mods to cruisers is like jet-can mining: it was not so much intended to be a common practice. Re: nerfing the ability to fit up-sized afterburners to vessels. I curse the genius who came up with fitting 1600 plate to a thorax. Before that became common practice, the thorax was considered ****-poor for combat by the ignorant masses, and not many folks dared bring up something so rediculous as a "nerf." Only those who dared bring it into combat, specialize in close-range combat, and brave whithering fire on the approach appreciated its usefulness. Now, you can sacrifice a little bit of firpower to turn it into a tank with battleship-class armor and everybody is screaming NERF!! If anything needs nerfed, its the armor. NOT the drones. When you're down to less than half armor by the time your drones and blasters are in effective range, you NEED all that firepower. And that's what makes the thorax so unique, and so much fun. |
Garreck |
Posted - 2005.08.25 04:02:00 -
[19]
Somebody hasn't been reading the whole thread. I'll quote it straight from the game.
for comparison:
If the argument of "don't believe everything you read" flies, then just ignore this and make up whatever reality suits your argument...but the argument of "The thorax isn't the premier drone cruiser in the game" simply doesn't jive with the in-game fiction and a longer-than-2-year-precident. The Vexor has always been a one-step-down-but-decent-cruiser, the Thorax has always been the top-of-the-line-get-close-and-pwn-with-drones cruiser. I've said it several times, and nobody seems to be able to wrap their minds around the concept: Thorax needs superior damage over time, because it has less time to do that damage in. A non-plated thorax will be down to half armor, maybe less by the time its drones and blasters reach their effective range. Meanwhile, the target is unscathed. Take away the thoraxes firepower, and it loses every time. As for killing battleships...this is a unique function of the thorax's close-range dominance, not 8 heavy drones. A cruiser orbiting 1km from an average battleship can't be hit. Kit it to gank, and it's going to have a good chance of rocking a battleship. Take the plate from the thorax, and you have a properly balanced ship. It will have a high probability of victory if combat starts inside 20km, it will likely lose if combat starts outside 20km. Take the drones from the thorax, and some other plated cruiser will take its turn in the "overpowered" limelight. Garreck Aeternus Crusade Aku. Soku. Zan. |
Garreck Amarr Border Defense Consortium Curatores Veritatis Alliance |
Posted - 2005.08.25 04:02:00 -
[20]
Somebody hasn't been reading the whole thread. I'll quote it straight from the game.
for comparison:
If the argument of "don't believe everything you read" flies, then just ignore this and make up whatever reality suits your argument...but the argument of "The thorax isn't the premier drone cruiser in the game" simply doesn't jive with the in-game fiction and a longer-than-2-year-precident. The Vexor has always been a one-step-down-but-decent-cruiser, the Thorax has always been the top-of-the-line-get-close-and-pwn-with-drones cruiser. I've said it several times, and nobody seems to be able to wrap their minds around the concept: Thorax needs superior damage over time, because it has less time to do that damage in. A non-plated thorax will be down to half armor, maybe less by the time its drones and blasters reach their effective range. Meanwhile, the target is unscathed. Take away the thoraxes firepower, and it loses every time. As for killing battleships...this is a unique function of the thorax's close-range dominance, not 8 heavy drones. A cruiser orbiting 1km from an average battleship can't be hit. Kit it to gank, and it's going to have a good chance of rocking a battleship. Take the plate from the thorax, and you have a properly balanced ship. It will have a high probability of victory if combat starts inside 20km, it will likely lose if combat starts outside 20km. Take the drones from the thorax, and some other plated cruiser will take its turn in the "overpowered" limelight. |
 Garreck |
Posted - 2005.08.25 04:09:00 -
[21] Edited by: Garreck on 25/08/2005 04:11:48
Yes. And look at the battleship kits on the solo battleship kills. A mining 'thron. An mwd scorpion with mid-slots wasted on too many non-ecm items. A typhoon with cruiser class weapons. And a thorax loss an average of every 4 days. I believe I had mentioned "high risk, high return" somewhere. Garreck Aeternus Crusade Aku. Soku. Zan. |
Garreck Amarr Border Defense Consortium Curatores Veritatis Alliance |
Posted - 2005.08.25 04:09:00 -
[22] Edited by: Garreck on 25/08/2005 04:11:48
Yes. And look at the battleship kits on the solo battleship kills. A mining 'thron. An mwd scorpion with mid-slots wasted on too many non-ecm items. A typhoon with cruiser class weapons. And a thorax loss an average of every 4 days. I believe I had mentioned "high risk, high return" somewhere. |
 Garreck |
Posted - 2005.08.25 04:41:00 -
[23]
Which is why the plate issue for all ships needs to be addressed, not the drones issue for the thorax. Garreck Aeternus Crusade Aku. Soku. Zan. |
Garreck Amarr Border Defense Consortium Curatores Veritatis Alliance |
Posted - 2005.08.25 04:41:00 -
[24]
Which is why the plate issue for all ships needs to be addressed, not the drones issue for the thorax. |
Garreck |
Posted - 2005.08.25 04:52:00 -
[25] Edited by: Garreck on 25/08/2005 04:52:48
No, it wasn't. I used to get made fun of for flying the thorax in combat. The thorax was a pvp joke...not because it wasn't good, of course, but because people didn't have the stones to ride out the damage and get in effective range. 1600 plate allowed them to do that with far less risk, so suddenly the thorax leaps forward as a great pvp ship. The damage potential was always there...but there was always huge risk involved with bringing that firepower to bear. 1600mm plate means you can more or less nullify that risk against other cruisers.
*bangs head on desk, screaming* Garreck Aeternus Crusade Aku. Soku. Zan. |
Garreck Amarr Border Defense Consortium Curatores Veritatis Alliance |
Posted - 2005.08.25 04:52:00 -
[26] Edited by: Garreck on 25/08/2005 04:52:48
No, it wasn't. I used to get made fun of for flying the thorax in combat. The thorax was a pvp joke...not because it wasn't good, of course, but because people didn't have the stones to ride out the damage and get in effective range. 1600 plate allowed them to do that with far less risk, so suddenly the thorax leaps forward as a great pvp ship. The damage potential was always there...but there was always huge risk involved with bringing that firepower to bear. 1600mm plate means you can more or less nullify that risk against other cruisers.
*bangs head on desk, screaming* |
 Garreck |
Posted - 2005.08.25 05:16:00 -
[27]
Is that why you told me I'm full of it? I've been flying a thorax more than any other ship for the past...oh, 20 months or so. I love cruisers, I buy into the "specialize" philosphy, and the thorax is the best gallente cruiser...so here I am. I'm presenting arguments based on a whole lot of combat experience in various setups and against various setups. I'm willing to concede that a 1600mm plate thorax is too powerful. What nobody else seems to be willing to concede that if you nerf the offensive firepower of a thorax rather than fixing the plate, you're only going to set up the NEXT overpowered 1600mm plate fitted cruiser. One thing I'll NEVER concede is that a non-plated thorax overpowers all other top-tier cruisers. More "sheer firepower?" Sure. But there is so much more to the combat equation. For instance, how damn close you have to be to use that firepower, and how much damage can be done to your mwd-ing fat ass in the mean time. Garreck Aeternus Crusade Aku. Soku. Zan. |
Garreck Amarr Border Defense Consortium Curatores Veritatis Alliance |
Posted - 2005.08.25 05:16:00 -
[28]
Is that why you told me I'm full of it? I've been flying a thorax more than any other ship for the past...oh, 20 months or so. I love cruisers, I buy into the "specialize" philosphy, and the thorax is the best gallente cruiser...so here I am. I'm presenting arguments based on a whole lot of combat experience in various setups and against various setups. I'm willing to concede that a 1600mm plate thorax is too powerful. What nobody else seems to be willing to concede that if you nerf the offensive firepower of a thorax rather than fixing the plate, you're only going to set up the NEXT overpowered 1600mm plate fitted cruiser. One thing I'll NEVER concede is that a non-plated thorax overpowers all other top-tier cruisers. More "sheer firepower?" Sure. But there is so much more to the combat equation. For instance, how damn close you have to be to use that firepower, and how much damage can be done to your mwd-ing fat ass in the mean time. |
 Garreck |
Posted - 2005.08.25 05:27:00 -
[29] Edited by: Garreck on 25/08/2005 05:29:48
Yes. I remember chasing several Ushra'Khan ruptures. With drones that could never keep pace, and blasters that could never get into range. No, the thorax was not the king of the dual mwd rage. It does happen to be the king of the plate rage. The MWD silliness got fixed (along with oversized afterburners) so let's get the plate issue fixed as well. Garreck Aeternus Crusade Aku. Soku. Zan. |
Garreck Amarr Border Defense Consortium Curatores Veritatis Alliance |
Posted - 2005.08.25 05:27:00 -
[30] Edited by: Garreck on 25/08/2005 05:29:48
Yes. I remember chasing several Ushra'Khan ruptures. With drones that could never keep pace, and blasters that could never get into range. No, the thorax was not the king of the dual mwd rage. It does happen to be the king of the plate rage. The MWD silliness got fixed (along with oversized afterburners) so let's get the plate issue fixed as well. |
Garreck |
Posted - 2005.08.25 06:34:00 -
[31]
You more or less made my case here. Fix the 1600mm plate. Then the thorax loses its durability. The thorax benefits most from the 1600mm plate...but it also has the most to lose. I beseech all of you: test shooting at a non-plated, mwding thorax. Seriously. Everybody is hung up on the 1600mm plate durability issue here...nobody seems to appreciate just how fragile a non-plated mwd-ing thorax is. You'll understand why no real thorax pilot wants their drones taken away: the damage output is NEEDED. That is the nature of a thorax. Plate needs looked into. Drones do not. Garreck Aeternus Crusade Aku. Soku. Zan. |
Garreck Amarr Border Defense Consortium Curatores Veritatis Alliance |
Posted - 2005.08.25 06:34:00 -
[32]
You more or less made my case here. Fix the 1600mm plate. Then the thorax loses its durability. The thorax benefits most from the 1600mm plate...but it also has the most to lose. I beseech all of you: test shooting at a non-plated, mwding thorax. Seriously. Everybody is hung up on the 1600mm plate durability issue here...nobody seems to appreciate just how fragile a non-plated mwd-ing thorax is. You'll understand why no real thorax pilot wants their drones taken away: the damage output is NEEDED. That is the nature of a thorax. Plate needs looked into. Drones do not. |
Garreck Amarr Border Defense Consortium Curatores Veritatis Alliance |
Posted - 2005.08.25 12:40:00 -
[33]
It is the only short-range cruiser where long-range variants are not viable.
I guess it's also not your fault that this was obviously the role for which it was intended. You're speaking from ignorance again. Try to put together a viable railgun setup on a thorax, leaving out the 1600mm plate option (yes, 150mm IIs are a pretty viable rail setup, but my whole argument is that the 1600mm plate needs sorted out.) You'll quickly find that it cannot effectively fit rails and maintain any surviveability. Even with 200mm rails, it's simply not viable. 8 heavy drones don't matter for beans when an mwd-ing thorax can be gunned down by a proper cruiser in about 25 seconds. Especially if you're talking an engagement beyond 20km where it's going to take about that amount of time for the drones to even reach you. So what do we do then: change the whole premise of the Thorax? Give it more grid and less drones and let the maller come up as the next overpowered 1600mm cruiser? That's nonsensical. Your challenge doesn't hold water, because you won't acknowledge that the thorax was designed as the premier blaster/drone boat, that it's very fragile in this role without the 1600mm plate, but very effective in the right hands. |
Garreck |
Posted - 2005.08.25 18:29:00 -
[34]
Flight time being the key factor. In a fight starting at 20km, it will take 8 heavy drones about 20 seconds to get into firing range. That's assuming the dumb-ass target just sits still. That's 20 seconds of damage the thorax has to take. By mr. "I do 200 damage per second in my rupture's" calculations, that's a good 4000 damage before resistances. Before the thorax has done one lick of damage. Does this mean ANYTHING to you folks? Garreck Aeternus Crusade Aku. Soku. Zan. |
Garreck Amarr Border Defense Consortium Curatores Veritatis Alliance |
Posted - 2005.08.25 18:29:00 -
[35]
Flight time being the key factor. In a fight starting at 20km, it will take 8 heavy drones about 20 seconds to get into firing range. That's assuming the dumb-ass target just sits still. That's 20 seconds of damage the thorax has to take. By mr. "I do 200 damage per second in my rupture's" calculations, that's a good 4000 damage before resistances. Before the thorax has done one lick of damage. Does this mean ANYTHING to you folks? |
Garreck |
Posted - 2005.08.25 18:55:00 -
[36]
Oh for the love of God. When's the last time you've had to reload in a half minute combat session? Having the wrong ammo loaded for the situation and not having the brains to swiftly disengage not included... I'm not talking about some rediculous uncommon combat range here. I'm talking about a very typical range for two cruisers to encouter eachother. Assuming "typical" resistances and no 1600mm plate on the thorax, the thorax will be hurting quite a bit before it begins doing its damage. It needs a superior DoT at that point. Garreck Aeternus Crusade Aku. Soku. Zan. |
Garreck Amarr Border Defense Consortium Curatores Veritatis Alliance |
Posted - 2005.08.25 18:55:00 -
[37]
Oh for the love of God. When's the last time you've had to reload in a half minute combat session? Having the wrong ammo loaded for the situation and not having the brains to swiftly disengage not included... I'm not talking about some rediculous uncommon combat range here. I'm talking about a very typical range for two cruisers to encouter eachother. Assuming "typical" resistances and no 1600mm plate on the thorax, the thorax will be hurting quite a bit before it begins doing its damage. It needs a superior DoT at that point. |
Garreck |
Posted - 2005.08.25 22:57:00 -
[38]
Wrong. The "ship description" was merely to refute this incredible idea that the Vexor is a "drone boat." I have no idea where that notion came from. It was given a drone bonus to beef it up back when cruisers got a second bonus. That didn't make it the primary drone boat, that merely brought it into the realm of "useful." The heart of my argument actually just took place when somebody mentioned that they can get 200dps with their rupture. My point is that the rupture (and any other cruiser) can begin doing that damage immediately. Heavy drones moving at 700-1000m/s have to wait a good 20 seconds or longer to begin doing their damage. Which is why the thorax can do more damage over time than any other cruiser...it has less time to do that damage in. It's already well into armor by the time it starts doing damage. As a footnote to that...I also feel that 1600mm plate is inappropriate for cruisers. I also admit that 1600mm plate gives the thorax the biggest advantage...because a thorax doesn't have to give up its primary weapon (drones) to utilize said durability but every other cruiser has to give up their turrets or missiles to use it. Bottom line? Thorax without a 1600mm plate is balanced. It can do faster damage than any other cruiser...but it has less of a window to do that damage it. It's already half-dead by the time it begins doing damage. Leave the drone bay be, sort out the 1600mm plate. Garreck Aeternus Crusade Aku. Soku. Zan. |
Garreck Amarr Border Defense Consortium Curatores Veritatis Alliance |
Posted - 2005.08.25 22:57:00 -
[39]
Wrong. The "ship description" was merely to refute this incredible idea that the Vexor is a "drone boat." I have no idea where that notion came from. It was given a drone bonus to beef it up back when cruisers got a second bonus. That didn't make it the primary drone boat, that merely brought it into the realm of "useful." The heart of my argument actually just took place when somebody mentioned that they can get 200dps with their rupture. My point is that the rupture (and any other cruiser) can begin doing that damage immediately. Heavy drones moving at 700-1000m/s have to wait a good 20 seconds or longer to begin doing their damage. Which is why the thorax can do more damage over time than any other cruiser...it has less time to do that damage in. It's already well into armor by the time it starts doing damage. As a footnote to that...I also feel that 1600mm plate is inappropriate for cruisers. I also admit that 1600mm plate gives the thorax the biggest advantage...because a thorax doesn't have to give up its primary weapon (drones) to utilize said durability but every other cruiser has to give up their turrets or missiles to use it. Bottom line? Thorax without a 1600mm plate is balanced. It can do faster damage than any other cruiser...but it has less of a window to do that damage it. It's already half-dead by the time it begins doing damage. Leave the drone bay be, sort out the 1600mm plate. |
Garreck |
Posted - 2005.08.25 23:28:00 -
[40] Edited by: Garreck on 25/08/2005 23:30:10
To be honest, I'm not sure a thorax can be fitted to do 200dps at the ranges of a rupture. It's just not designed to have that kind of damage at that kind of range. If you're talking about trying to go toe-to-toe with 720s using 200mm rails, the thorax will likely be dead before the drones arrive. As for "not understanding..." I don't see how I'm not getting across my point that the thorax will be under fire for a good long time before it can deal damage. 170dps drones doesn't mean anything for at least 20 seconds. 20 seconds of taking fire without being able to return it. Even assuming you're only being hit for 120 dps in the mean time, (a more reasonable number than 200dps perhaps?) you're going to be in really bad shape when you finally open fire. You HAVE to be able to do far superior DoT to be able to compete at that point. You guys are hung up on this static dps stuff. You're not taking into account the tactical dynamic of it all. MWD-ing thorax gets hit for lots of damage. Slow moving drones don't just magically start doing that 170 dps. In fact, any cruiser with an mwd will beat a blaster-rax...just out distance the drones and blasters. Because all of the thoraxes weapons are short range, the cruiser is impervious to fire, large sig-radius notwithstanding. Meanwhile, the thorax is trying to cover ground whilst taking a beating. A caracal with mwd and cap booster should beat a thorax every time. An mwd-ing vexor with a cap booster could probably do it as well. Not to mention a rupture, a bellicose, a stabber, an omen, whatever. The drones will not be able to keep pace, and the blasters won't be able to take advantage of the opposing cruiser's large sig radius. I can keep throwing out examples. I can keep re-wording it. And I can keep on being ignored, I guess. The thorax is a high risk ship. Without a plate, it depends on starting an engagement from a very short range, and praying that its target is not fast. Taking away the plate will square everything away. Taking away the drones will only perpetuate the circle of nerf, as another cruiser (likely the maller) steps up as massively superior to other cruisers. Garreck Aeternus Crusade Aku. Soku. Zan. |
Garreck Amarr Border Defense Consortium Curatores Veritatis Alliance |
Posted - 2005.08.25 23:28:00 -
[41] Edited by: Garreck on 25/08/2005 23:30:10
To be honest, I'm not sure a thorax can be fitted to do 200dps at the ranges of a rupture. It's just not designed to have that kind of damage at that kind of range. If you're talking about trying to go toe-to-toe with 720s using 200mm rails, the thorax will likely be dead before the drones arrive. As for "not understanding..." I don't see how I'm not getting across my point that the thorax will be under fire for a good long time before it can deal damage. 170dps drones doesn't mean anything for at least 20 seconds. 20 seconds of taking fire without being able to return it. Even assuming you're only being hit for 120 dps in the mean time, (a more reasonable number than 200dps perhaps?) you're going to be in really bad shape when you finally open fire. You HAVE to be able to do far superior DoT to be able to compete at that point. You guys are hung up on this static dps stuff. You're not taking into account the tactical dynamic of it all. MWD-ing thorax gets hit for lots of damage. Slow moving drones don't just magically start doing that 170 dps. In fact, any cruiser with an mwd will beat a blaster-rax...just out distance the drones and blasters. Because all of the thoraxes weapons are short range, the cruiser is impervious to fire, large sig-radius notwithstanding. Meanwhile, the thorax is trying to cover ground whilst taking a beating. A caracal with mwd and cap booster should beat a thorax every time. An mwd-ing vexor with a cap booster could probably do it as well. Not to mention a rupture, a bellicose, a stabber, an omen, whatever. The drones will not be able to keep pace, and the blasters won't be able to take advantage of the opposing cruiser's large sig radius. I can keep throwing out examples. I can keep re-wording it. And I can keep on being ignored, I guess. The thorax is a high risk ship. Without a plate, it depends on starting an engagement from a very short range, and praying that its target is not fast. Taking away the plate will square everything away. Taking away the drones will only perpetuate the circle of nerf, as another cruiser (likely the maller) steps up as massively superior to other cruisers. |
Garreck |
Posted - 2005.08.26 02:01:00 -
[42]
A question of fitting. Thorax has to spend more low slots (and cpu) on grid upgrades (1000 grid consumption from the rupture weapons, 1125 from the thorax weapons, and the rupture has a 25 grid head start.) This leaves the rupture with low slots for damage mods and perhaps even cpu left over for tracking comps. It's bad mojo for a thorax to be sitting around trading blows with a rupture like that. Assuming no tank for either, the rupture can put out enough damage at that range to splash the thorax before the drones become a factor in the dps of the thorax. An mwd with at least moderate tank (explosive hardener and medium armor repairer) to counter the added damage that the mwd will bring is preferable to just sitting in optimal of a rupture. Garreck Aeternus Crusade Aku. Soku. Zan. |
Garreck Amarr Border Defense Consortium Curatores Veritatis Alliance |
Posted - 2005.08.26 02:01:00 -
[43]
A question of fitting. Thorax has to spend more low slots (and cpu) on grid upgrades (1000 grid consumption from the rupture weapons, 1125 from the thorax weapons, and the rupture has a 25 grid head start.) This leaves the rupture with low slots for damage mods and perhaps even cpu left over for tracking comps. It's bad mojo for a thorax to be sitting around trading blows with a rupture like that. Assuming no tank for either, the rupture can put out enough damage at that range to splash the thorax before the drones become a factor in the dps of the thorax. An mwd with at least moderate tank (explosive hardener and medium armor repairer) to counter the added damage that the mwd will bring is preferable to just sitting in optimal of a rupture. |
Garreck |
Posted - 2005.08.26 02:57:00 -
[44]
You've not convinced me that an un-plated thorax is overpowered, is all. I still maintain that it needs its killer DoT to make up for damage it's taking well before it can start dealing it. Of course, you don't have to convince me...you have to convince CCP. I'm just providing a counterpoint from a long-time thorax pilot. Garreck Aeternus Crusade Aku. Soku. Zan. |
Garreck Amarr Border Defense Consortium Curatores Veritatis Alliance |
Posted - 2005.08.26 02:57:00 -
[45]
You've not convinced me that an un-plated thorax is overpowered, is all. I still maintain that it needs its killer DoT to make up for damage it's taking well before it can start dealing it. Of course, you don't have to convince me...you have to convince CCP. I'm just providing a counterpoint from a long-time thorax pilot. |
Garreck |
Posted - 2005.08.26 03:29:00 -
[46] There's a reason why, even before the plate issue, thorax pilots didn't go for distance setups. It's hard to fit, doesn't work as well as with other cruisers, and combat will almost invariably be decided before drones even become a factor. (Bigger guns and no tank = very brief combat...usually in favor of the long distance suited ships.) Why fight a style that denies you the advantage of your drones? That said, even an mwd setup does take considerable damage before the drones and blasters get in range to do any damage in return. However, this is what the thorax was designed for, and it does this much better than duking it out at range. Other than that? No, I don't get it. Not at all. Garreck Aeternus Crusade Aku. Soku. Zan. |
Garreck Amarr Border Defense Consortium Curatores Veritatis Alliance |
Posted - 2005.08.26 03:29:00 -
[47] There's a reason why, even before the plate issue, thorax pilots didn't go for distance setups. It's hard to fit, doesn't work as well as with other cruisers, and combat will almost invariably be decided before drones even become a factor. (Bigger guns and no tank = very brief combat...usually in favor of the long distance suited ships.) Why fight a style that denies you the advantage of your drones? That said, even an mwd setup does take considerable damage before the drones and blasters get in range to do any damage in return. However, this is what the thorax was designed for, and it does this much better than duking it out at range. Other than that? No, I don't get it. Not at all. |
Garreck |
Posted - 2005.08.26 05:38:00 -
[48]
Truth. Which I'll wager more or less happened here.
It out-damages the Deimos if it has all damage mods. In which case it dies real quick. To any heavy assault ship.
You missed the better part of the thread where I outlined that the plate is what makes the thorax overpowered. Also, I noticed the better part of those engagements started within 20km...which is ideal for a thorax. That's like complaining that a tempest killed you at 100km so it must be overpowered. Your video proves the case that a 1600mm plate is overpowered. It does not prove that the drones are what accomplish this. Being able to add...what, 3300 points of armor with a rolled tungsten is HUGE for a thorax, because it doesn't have to sacrifice it's primary firepower...the drones...to take advantage of the added durability. Other cruisers have to sacrifice their guns for said durability, which is why the thorax dominates. Take away the (rediculous) option to fit 1600mm plate on a cruiser, and the situation blances out real quick. Yes, it will still have greater firepower, but as I've outlined again and again it's quite fragile. I still maintain that a non-plated thorax is not overpowered. Garreck Aeternus Crusade Aku. Soku. Zan. |
Garreck Amarr Border Defense Consortium Curatores Veritatis Alliance |
Posted - 2005.08.26 05:38:00 -
[49]
Truth. Which I'll wager more or less happened here.
It out-damages the Deimos if it has all damage mods. In which case it dies real quick. To any heavy assault ship.
You missed the better part of the thread where I outlined that the plate is what makes the thorax overpowered. Also, I noticed the better part of those engagements started within 20km...which is ideal for a thorax. That's like complaining that a tempest killed you at 100km so it must be overpowered. Your video proves the case that a 1600mm plate is overpowered. It does not prove that the drones are what accomplish this. Being able to add...what, 3300 points of armor with a rolled tungsten is HUGE for a thorax, because it doesn't have to sacrifice it's primary firepower...the drones...to take advantage of the added durability. Other cruisers have to sacrifice their guns for said durability, which is why the thorax dominates. Take away the (rediculous) option to fit 1600mm plate on a cruiser, and the situation blances out real quick. Yes, it will still have greater firepower, but as I've outlined again and again it's quite fragile. I still maintain that a non-plated thorax is not overpowered. |
 Garreck |
Posted - 2005.08.26 18:21:00 -
[50]
No, it doesn't. I'm quite successful with my non-plate 'rax. I'm also quite vulnerable. I notice you've changed your argument to attack the value of a thorax without plate...but this logic will be even more unfounded than the logic that drones make it overpowered, as old-school thorax lovers have been making due with their fragile but heavy hitting cruiser for a good long time. Garreck Aeternus Crusade Aku. Soku. Zan. |
Garreck Amarr Border Defense Consortium Curatores Veritatis Alliance |
Posted - 2005.08.26 18:21:00 -
[51]
No, it doesn't. I'm quite successful with my non-plate 'rax. I'm also quite vulnerable. I notice you've changed your argument to attack the value of a thorax without plate...but this logic will be even more unfounded than the logic that drones make it overpowered, as old-school thorax lovers have been making due with their fragile but heavy hitting cruiser for a good long time. |
 Garreck |
Posted - 2005.08.26 18:34:00 -
[52]
Because it has half the time to do the damage in. But I've said that a lot now... Garreck Aeternus Crusade Aku. Soku. Zan. |
Garreck Amarr Border Defense Consortium Curatores Veritatis Alliance |
Posted - 2005.08.26 18:34:00 -
[53]
Because it has half the time to do the damage in. But I've said that a lot now... |
Garreck |
Posted - 2005.08.26 18:40:00 -
[54]
Without plate, it's simply not true. Folks are already yielding to the logic that a non-plated thorax is quite vulnerable.
I don't see how this is a bad thing. Garreck Aeternus Crusade Aku. Soku. Zan. |
Garreck Amarr Border Defense Consortium Curatores Veritatis Alliance |
Posted - 2005.08.26 18:40:00 -
[55]
Without plate, it's simply not true. Folks are already yielding to the logic that a non-plated thorax is quite vulnerable.
I don't see how this is a bad thing. |
Garreck |
Posted - 2005.08.26 19:09:00 -
[56]
Thorax sacrifices more grid and low slots to fit said weapons, allowing other long range setups (namely the rupture) to fit damage or tracking mods...maybe both...somebody check me on that? Anyway...thorax is distinctly at a disadvantage at long range. Knowing that, and knowing that combat will be decided before drones could become a factor, why even consider the "capability" of a long range setup as a part of your argument? A long range thorax will almost invariably lose.
Thorax needs this. I've explained why again and again.
Thorax is the dominant short-range cruiser. Plain and simple. Is it better than any other cruiser in this role? Certainly. Does that make it overpowered? No more so than the rupture is overpowered for its long-range supremacy. I don't cry "overpowered!" when I try and fail to out-range a rupture in my thorax. I fight within the thorax's strengths. Garreck Aeternus Crusade Aku. Soku. Zan. |
Garreck Amarr Border Defense Consortium Curatores Veritatis Alliance |
Posted - 2005.08.26 19:09:00 -
[57]
Thorax sacrifices more grid and low slots to fit said weapons, allowing other long range setups (namely the rupture) to fit damage or tracking mods...maybe both...somebody check me on that? Anyway...thorax is distinctly at a disadvantage at long range. Knowing that, and knowing that combat will be decided before drones could become a factor, why even consider the "capability" of a long range setup as a part of your argument? A long range thorax will almost invariably lose.
Thorax needs this. I've explained why again and again.
Thorax is the dominant short-range cruiser. Plain and simple. Is it better than any other cruiser in this role? Certainly. Does that make it overpowered? No more so than the rupture is overpowered for its long-range supremacy. I don't cry "overpowered!" when I try and fail to out-range a rupture in my thorax. I fight within the thorax's strengths. |
 Garreck |
Posted - 2005.08.26 19:27:00 -
[58]
720 howies are more properly compared to 250 rails. Next witness? Garreck Aeternus Crusade Aku. Soku. Zan. |
Garreck Amarr Border Defense Consortium Curatores Veritatis Alliance |
Posted - 2005.08.26 19:27:00 -
[59] Edited by: Garreck on 26/08/2005 19:29:02
720 howies are more properly compared to 250 rails. The fitting of which will likely require 3 grid upgrades. Next witness? |
Garreck |
Posted - 2005.08.26 19:44:00 -
[60] *Sigh* Let me try this from another angle. First, your assertion that a thorax with medium class rails can compete in pvp is way off base. That would more or less be a whole other discussion. Which takes us back to the example of a non-plated blaster-rax for discussion. You're coming at this argument from a standpoint of static numbers. Numbers which you seem to be right about for the most part, but which you're horribly misapplying. I'm coming at this argument from a standpoint of tactical design and doctrine. Rupture favors long range. It's got hard hitting weapons at that range. It's fast enough to keep its targets at arms length (indeed, to easily pull away from its target if the target is not mwd fitted.) It does not have as impressive of static damage numbers...because it can begin doing its damage more or less as soon as it gets lock, while other cruisers (not just the thorax) have to get closer to begin firing. Opposite end of the spectrum, we have the thorax. VERY impressive overall firepower. Moreso than any other cruiser. Why? Because it has to wait longer than any other cruiser (under fire the whole time) to get into effective range. Just pulling some round numbers here, let's say an average cruiser fight lasts 40 seconds (a fair number in my experience.) If the fight starts at 20km, the thorax will only be shooting and doing damage for more or less half of the engagement. Meanwhile, its mwd is making it a nice and juicy target on the approach. Other cruisers take a more mid-range approach. They have other advantages to suit them: the maller with its incredible durability, and the moa with...well, I'll be honest: I don't think many people have come up with anything the moa is terrific at in pvp. That poor ship needs love. At any rate...these differences in design and execution are what make combat in Eve so much fun. You've got to think about what your target is, and how you're going to use your advantages to overcome its advantages. Instead of everybody having more or less equivalent drones bay, grid, cpu, and optimal range. I'm convinced everybody would be happier with combat if everybody knew it was "target, orbit at 20km, f1-f5" and wait to see who dies. Garreck Aeternus Crusade Aku. Soku. Zan. |
Garreck Amarr Border Defense Consortium Curatores Veritatis Alliance |
Posted - 2005.08.26 19:44:00 -
[61] *Sigh* Let me try this from another angle. First, your assertion that a thorax with medium class rails can compete in pvp is way off base. That would more or less be a whole other discussion. Which takes us back to the example of a non-plated blaster-rax for discussion. You're coming at this argument from a standpoint of static numbers. Numbers which you seem to be right about for the most part, but which you're horribly misapplying. I'm coming at this argument from a standpoint of tactical design and doctrine. Rupture favors long range. It's got hard hitting weapons at that range. It's fast enough to keep its targets at arms length (indeed, to easily pull away from its target if the target is not mwd fitted.) It does not have as impressive of static damage numbers...because it can begin doing its damage more or less as soon as it gets lock, while other cruisers (not just the thorax) have to get closer to begin firing. Opposite end of the spectrum, we have the thorax. VERY impressive overall firepower. Moreso than any other cruiser. Why? Because it has to wait longer than any other cruiser (under fire the whole time) to get into effective range. Just pulling some round numbers here, let's say an average cruiser fight lasts 40 seconds (a fair number in my experience.) If the fight starts at 20km, the thorax will only be shooting and doing damage for more or less half of the engagement. Meanwhile, its mwd is making it a nice and juicy target on the approach. Other cruisers take a more mid-range approach. They have other advantages to suit them: the maller with its incredible durability, and the moa with...well, I'll be honest: I don't think many people have come up with anything the moa is terrific at in pvp. That poor ship needs love. At any rate...these differences in design and execution are what make combat in Eve so much fun. You've got to think about what your target is, and how you're going to use your advantages to overcome its advantages. Instead of everybody having more or less equivalent drones bay, grid, cpu, and optimal range. I'm convinced everybody would be happier with combat if everybody knew it was "target, orbit at 20km, f1-f5" and wait to see who dies. |
Garreck |
Posted - 2005.08.26 20:00:00 -
[62] You're forgetting that by stepping down to 650s, you open up the possibility of fitting a couple of heavy launchers. There's a reason thoraxes don't fit rails. They just can't compete. They have to sacrifice too much in all other areas of combat effectiveness. Garreck Aeternus Crusade Aku. Soku. Zan. |
Garreck Amarr Border Defense Consortium Curatores Veritatis Alliance |
Posted - 2005.08.26 20:00:00 -
[63] You're forgetting that by stepping down to 650s, you open up the possibility of fitting a couple of heavy launchers. There's a reason thoraxes don't fit rails. They just can't compete. They have to sacrifice too much in all other areas of combat effectiveness. |
Garreck |
Posted - 2005.08.26 20:07:00 -
[64] Edited by: Garreck on 26/08/2005 20:07:19
Well color me stupid. I thought we were comparing long range setups, for which the drones will likely not even come into play. (Another reason I write off the long-range argument as reasonable...what pilot is going to deny himself his biggest advantage?)
Come, now. I refrained from the "it sounds like you got your ass kicked by a thorax pilot" argument... Garreck Aeternus Crusade Aku. Soku. Zan. |
Garreck Amarr Border Defense Consortium Curatores Veritatis Alliance |
Posted - 2005.08.26 20:07:00 -
[65] Edited by: Garreck on 26/08/2005 20:07:19
Well color me stupid. I thought we were comparing long range setups, for which the drones will likely not even come into play. (Another reason I write off the long-range argument as reasonable...what pilot is going to deny himself his biggest advantage?)
Come, now. I refrained from the "it sounds like you got your ass kicked by a thorax pilot" argument... |
Garreck |
Posted - 2005.08.26 20:14:00 -
[66]
Heck, someone else trying to tell me the thorax is overpowered provided the numbers earlier, saying he could get 200dps from his rupture. Assuming a 20 second approach time, that's 4000 damage (before resists and tracking factors, of course, but hey...you're throwing 'raw' dps at me as well.) 4000 damage. Before the thorax even begins. Is that a good enough number for you? Garreck Aeternus Crusade Aku. Soku. Zan. |
Garreck Amarr Border Defense Consortium Curatores Veritatis Alliance |
Posted - 2005.08.26 20:14:00 -
[67]
Heck, someone else trying to tell me the thorax is overpowered provided the numbers earlier, saying he could get 200dps from his rupture. Assuming a 20 second approach time, that's 4000 damage (before resists and tracking factors, of course, but hey...you're throwing 'raw' dps at me as well.) 4000 damage. Before the thorax even begins. Is that a good enough number for you? |
 Garreck |
Posted - 2005.08.26 20:21:00 -
[68]
Most 1v1's end with somebody running. That's the nature of a lot of folks' mindsets anymore. We're assuming both targets stay until one dies for the sake of numbers. Give a rupture and a thorax each an interceptor to work with, and things get really interesting, don't they? Unfortunately, too many factors come into play at that point to really argue the "overpowered" issue. Garreck Aeternus Crusade Aku. Soku. Zan. |
Garreck Amarr Border Defense Consortium Curatores Veritatis Alliance |
Posted - 2005.08.26 20:21:00 -
[69]
Most 1v1's end with somebody running. That's the nature of a lot of folks' mindsets anymore. We're assuming both targets stay until one dies for the sake of numbers. Give a rupture and a thorax each an interceptor to work with, and things get really interesting, don't they? Unfortunately, too many factors come into play at that point to really argue the "overpowered" issue. |
Garreck |
Posted - 2005.08.26 20:32:00 -
[70]
I've answered why 8 are needed several times, actually. The extreme up-close dps is needed because it has to catch up on damage that it's been taking on the approach without being able to return any. I don't know how else to word it. Why are 10 mediums not enough? Because that's half the damage of 8 heavies. It's just not enough to get the job done. Garreck Aeternus Crusade Aku. Soku. Zan. |
Garreck Amarr Border Defense Consortium Curatores Veritatis Alliance |
Posted - 2005.08.26 20:32:00 -
[71]
I've answered why 8 are needed several times, actually. The extreme up-close dps is needed because it has to catch up on damage that it's been taking on the approach without being able to return any. I don't know how else to word it. Why are 10 mediums not enough? Because that's half the damage of 8 heavies. It's just not enough to get the job done. |
Garreck |
Posted - 2005.08.26 20:37:00 -
[72]
Actually, with some clever piloting, a Rupture pilot can easily kite within scramble range. Remember: as long as you keep outside of 2km (avoiding blasters) and move faster than an mwd 'rax (avoiding being webbed and outrunning the drones by default) then the thorax pilot has no choice but to be "kited to death." Just fit a 20km disruptor and it's game over for mr. overpowered thorax. Garreck Aeternus Crusade Aku. Soku. Zan. |
Garreck Amarr Border Defense Consortium Curatores Veritatis Alliance |
Posted - 2005.08.26 20:37:00 -
[73]
Actually, with some clever piloting, a Rupture pilot can easily kite within scramble range. Remember: as long as you keep outside of 2km (avoiding blasters) and move faster than an mwd 'rax (avoiding being webbed and outrunning the drones by default) then the thorax pilot has no choice but to be "kited to death." Just fit a 20km disruptor and it's game over for mr. overpowered thorax. |
Garreck |
Posted - 2005.08.26 20:47:00 -
[74]
My word against yours is "no argument from the other side?" I've already said that a thorax will have to dedicate more low slots and cpu to grid upgrades, where the rupture can add damage mods and tracking mods which, you'll find, quite easily tip the damage balance to the rupture at range. A range that will nullify the use of the drones. Rendering your argument useless because no smart thorax pilot is going to deny himself the firepower of his primary weapon. Which I've said before. But we're going in circles. You can take my word for it, you can run the numbers for yourself, or you can write me off as "wrong" without bothering. Garreck Aeternus Crusade Aku. Soku. Zan. |
Garreck Amarr Border Defense Consortium Curatores Veritatis Alliance |
Posted - 2005.08.26 20:47:00 -
[75]
My word against yours is "no argument from the other side?" I've already said that a thorax will have to dedicate more low slots and cpu to grid upgrades, where the rupture can add damage mods and tracking mods which, you'll find, quite easily tip the damage balance to the rupture at range. A range that will nullify the use of the drones. Rendering your argument useless because no smart thorax pilot is going to deny himself the firepower of his primary weapon. Which I've said before. But we're going in circles. You can take my word for it, you can run the numbers for yourself, or you can write me off as "wrong" without bothering. |
 Garreck |
Posted - 2005.08.26 21:08:00 -
[76]
Actually, I have. Rupture has lower dps because it has more seconds to be doing its damage. Thorax has higher dps because it has fewer seconds to be doing its damage in. Do you see? If a rupture could do a thorax's dps at the range that a rupture can do it, nobody would stand a chance in hell because you'd never get close. With the thorax, you can vie for tactical superiority (ie, deny him the ability to get close) and hope to inflict as much damage as possible before he DOES get close. You keep the thorax at arms' length, it loses. You let it get close, you lose. 50 damage per second for 10 seconds is 500 damage. 100 damage per second for 5 seconds is 500 damage. OMG...but 100 dps is TWICE 50 dps!! That's not fair! Well...if you only have half as long to be doing said damage, maybe that's not as unfair a number as everyone thinks. My argument is simply that damage inflicted on the thorax before it can even open fire quite justifies the amount of damage a thorax can deal at close range. Garreck Aeternus Crusade Aku. Soku. Zan. |
Garreck Amarr Border Defense Consortium Curatores Veritatis Alliance |
Posted - 2005.08.26 21:08:00 -
[77]
Actually, I have. Rupture has lower dps because it has more seconds to be doing its damage. Thorax has higher dps because it has fewer seconds to be doing its damage in. Do you see? If a rupture could do a thorax's dps at the range that a rupture can do it, nobody would stand a chance in hell because you'd never get close. With the thorax, you can vie for tactical superiority (ie, deny him the ability to get close) and hope to inflict as much damage as possible before he DOES get close. You keep the thorax at arms' length, it loses. You let it get close, you lose. 50 damage per second for 10 seconds is 500 damage. 100 damage per second for 5 seconds is 500 damage. OMG...but 100 dps is TWICE 50 dps!! That's not fair! Well...if you only have half as long to be doing said damage, maybe that's not as unfair a number as everyone thinks. My argument is simply that damage inflicted on the thorax before it can even open fire quite justifies the amount of damage a thorax can deal at close range. |
Garreck |
Posted - 2005.08.26 21:11:00 -
[78] Edited by: Garreck on 26/08/2005 21:16:18
A mindblowingly convincing argument that the thorax should be nerfed. Because it's been discussed and defended for 15 pages. Garreck Aeternus Crusade Aku. Soku. Zan. |
Garreck Amarr Border Defense Consortium Curatores Veritatis Alliance |
Posted - 2005.08.26 21:11:00 -
[79] Edited by: Garreck on 26/08/2005 21:16:18
A mindblowingly convincing argument that the thorax should be nerfed. Because it's been discussed and defended for 15 pages. |
Garreck |
Posted - 2005.08.26 22:19:00 -
[80] Edited by: Garreck on 26/08/2005 22:20:18
A fair question. To answer the question, I'll have to ask you to try shooting at a thorax with its mwd running. I'll be honest: I've never done it in a rupture. But I have done it with 425mm railguns. I can hit an mwd-ing cruiser up to just inside 10km. Now, that's with large turrets that track slowly. With medium turrets that track slowly I'm sure you'll be able to get solid hits right up to the point where the thorax turns off its mwd at very close range. Obviously at that point if you haven't destroyed it, you've probably lost unless your launchers can somehow save you. But that's a point of combat experience. Much like I had to learn when a target was close enough for me to engage without dying before reaching the target, non-thorax users need to learn when a thorax starts too close for them to try destroying it. Garreck Aeternus Crusade Aku. Soku. Zan. |
Garreck Amarr Border Defense Consortium Curatores Veritatis Alliance |
Posted - 2005.08.26 22:19:00 -
[81] Edited by: Garreck on 26/08/2005 22:20:18
A fair question. To answer the question, I'll have to ask you to try shooting at a thorax with its mwd running. I'll be honest: I've never done it in a rupture. But I have done it with 425mm railguns. I can hit an mwd-ing cruiser up to just inside 10km. Now, that's with large turrets that track slowly. With medium turrets that track slowly I'm sure you'll be able to get solid hits right up to the point where the thorax turns off its mwd at very close range. Obviously at that point if you haven't destroyed it, you've probably lost unless your launchers can somehow save you. But that's a point of combat experience. Much like I had to learn when a target was close enough for me to engage without dying before reaching the target, non-thorax users need to learn when a thorax starts too close for them to try destroying it. |
Garreck |
Posted - 2005.08.26 22:41:00 -
[82]
The stabber can kite like a son-of-a-gun. Against a thorax it'll want an mwd because the thorax will be using one. Against other ships, it doesn't even need that. I'm not an expert on minnie ships, but I surely fly against 'em a lot. 2 Assault frigates can make real quick work of a non-plated thorax. Heavy drones have a hard time against frigates. An assault frig can easily have 1k armor, great resists, solid damage, and move at over 500m/s. And the 'rax's blasters? Well, unless the frigates are orbiting at 2km... Battleships can fry a non-plate thorax outside 20km real quick, and 6 heavy drones will do a non-plate thorax well before that thorax can do a battleship. Garreck Aeternus Crusade Aku. Soku. Zan. |
Garreck Amarr Border Defense Consortium Curatores Veritatis Alliance |
Posted - 2005.08.26 22:41:00 -
[83]
The stabber can kite like a son-of-a-gun. Against a thorax it'll want an mwd because the thorax will be using one. Against other ships, it doesn't even need that. I'm not an expert on minnie ships, but I surely fly against 'em a lot. 2 Assault frigates can make real quick work of a non-plated thorax. Heavy drones have a hard time against frigates. An assault frig can easily have 1k armor, great resists, solid damage, and move at over 500m/s. And the 'rax's blasters? Well, unless the frigates are orbiting at 2km... Battleships can fry a non-plate thorax outside 20km real quick, and 6 heavy drones will do a non-plate thorax well before that thorax can do a battleship. |
Garreck |
Posted - 2005.08.31 05:08:00 -
[84] All of the videos have plated 'raxes. Plate is what gives the thorax such an edge. When you take away the drones from the thorax and keep the over-sized plates for cruisers, the Maller will become the next OMGNERF subject. Take away the plate from every cruiser, and suddenly the thorax is a paper-thin death machine. Only effective at short range, and terribly easy to kill. Try it. You'll like it. But then, I've asked people to see the difference for themselves already... Garreck Aeternus Crusade Aku. Soku. Zan. |
Garreck Amarr Border Defense Consortium Curatores Veritatis Alliance |
Posted - 2005.08.31 05:08:00 -
[85] All of the videos have plated 'raxes. Plate is what gives the thorax such an edge. When you take away the drones from the thorax and keep the over-sized plates for cruisers, the Maller will become the next OMGNERF subject. Take away the plate from every cruiser, and suddenly the thorax is a paper-thin death machine. Only effective at short range, and terribly easy to kill. Try it. You'll like it. But then, I've asked people to see the difference for themselves already... |
Garreck Amarr Border Defense Consortium Curatores Veritatis Alliance |
Posted - 2005.08.31 05:08:00 -
[86] All of the videos have plated 'raxes. Plate is what gives the thorax such an edge. When you take away the drones from the thorax and keep the over-sized plates for cruisers, the Maller will become the next OMGNERF subject. Take away the plate from every cruiser, and suddenly the thorax is a paper-thin death machine. Only effective at short range, and terribly easy to kill. Try it. You'll like it. But then, I've asked people to see the difference for themselves already... |
 Garreck |
Posted - 2005.09.05 02:05:00 -
[87] Edited by: Garreck on 05/09/2005 02:05:20 Insane. Nobody is even considering how fragile the thorax is without plate. All of those beautiful calculations took into account battleship plate and small turrets, which is what makes the thorax so insanely powerful...not the drones. Yes, it will maintain a high damage output; but it will be far easier to put down without the plate. Nobody wants to even try it out. Thorax has to cross the full distance to its target to do damage. Thorax without plate is paper thin. It has high damage output to make up for both of those factors. And yes, I still maintain that the thorax is the drone boat, not the vexor. I've no idea where that idea came into effect. The thorax ship description says it is. Furthermore, the thorax has always had more drone space. But the vexor is the primary drone carrier because you guys say so? I'm not convinced. Garreck Aeternus Crusade Aku. Soku. Zan. |
Garreck Amarr Border Defense Consortium Curatores Veritatis Alliance |
Posted - 2005.09.05 02:05:00 -
[88] Edited by: Garreck on 05/09/2005 02:05:20 Insane. Nobody is even considering how fragile the thorax is without plate. All of those beautiful calculations took into account battleship plate and small turrets, which is what makes the thorax so insanely powerful...not the drones. Yes, it will maintain a high damage output; but it will be far easier to put down without the plate. Nobody wants to even try it out. Thorax has to cross the full distance to its target to do damage. Thorax without plate is paper thin. It has high damage output to make up for both of those factors. And yes, I still maintain that the thorax is the drone boat, not the vexor. I've no idea where that idea came into effect. The thorax ship description says it is. Furthermore, the thorax has always had more drone space. But the vexor is the primary drone carrier because you guys say so? I'm not convinced. |
Garreck Amarr Border Defense Consortium Curatores Veritatis Alliance |
Posted - 2005.09.05 02:05:00 -
[89] Edited by: Garreck on 05/09/2005 02:05:20 Insane. Nobody is even considering how fragile the thorax is without plate. All of those beautiful calculations took into account battleship plate and small turrets, which is what makes the thorax so insanely powerful...not the drones. Yes, it will maintain a high damage output; but it will be far easier to put down without the plate. Nobody wants to even try it out. Thorax has to cross the full distance to its target to do damage. Thorax without plate is paper thin. It has high damage output to make up for both of those factors. And yes, I still maintain that the thorax is the drone boat, not the vexor. I've no idea where that idea came into effect. The thorax ship description says it is. Furthermore, the thorax has always had more drone space. But the vexor is the primary drone carrier because you guys say so? I'm not convinced. |
Garreck |
Posted - 2005.09.06 04:17:00 -
[90]
So...take away the plate. Then you can kill him as he's mwd-ing at you with a sig-radius the size of a station. Or die because you started the engagement too close. See, what's fun about the thorax if you take away the plate is that it's all about vying for position...it brings skill and trickery into the equation. If you start at 15km, thorax wins. Start at 30km, thorax loses. Start somewhere in between, and skillpoints come more into effect and it's a pulse-pounding few seconds as you find out who's got what. Garreck Aeternus Crusade Aku. Soku. Zan. |
Garreck Amarr Border Defense Consortium Curatores Veritatis Alliance |
Posted - 2005.09.06 04:17:00 -
[91]
So...take away the plate. Then you can kill him as he's mwd-ing at you with a sig-radius the size of a station. Or die because you started the engagement too close. See, what's fun about the thorax if you take away the plate is that it's all about vying for position...it brings skill and trickery into the equation. If you start at 15km, thorax wins. Start at 30km, thorax loses. Start somewhere in between, and skillpoints come more into effect and it's a pulse-pounding few seconds as you find out who's got what. |
Garreck Amarr Border Defense Consortium Curatores Veritatis Alliance |
Posted - 2005.09.06 04:17:00 -
[92]
So...take away the plate. Then you can kill him as he's mwd-ing at you with a sig-radius the size of a station. Or die because you started the engagement too close. See, what's fun about the thorax if you take away the plate is that it's all about vying for position...it brings skill and trickery into the equation. If you start at 15km, thorax wins. Start at 30km, thorax loses. Start somewhere in between, and skillpoints come more into effect and it's a pulse-pounding few seconds as you find out who's got what. |
Originally by: Naughty Boy
So now suddenly 5x250mm rails and 5% damage bonus are somehow not enough to match the rupture 4x720s +5% rof +%5 damage? At 20km range? Thats kinda news for me. And its like what? 10% of a rupture firepower? 25% maybe? Because even HALF of drones dps will be around 100dps, so i think if you outgun poor rax with 200 dps TOTAL, then I have to have like 50 dps on my rails or something?
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