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| Author | Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 1 post(s) |
 Nyxus    |
Posted - 2005.08.24 03:40:00 -
[1]
Read these again. Look at the times. This is clearly why the Rax dronebay + New 1600mm plate = teh overpwning wtfbbq THE SOLUTIONÖ
Look ma I fixed all the problems at once! Cruisers viable! Thorax balanced! Plated ceptor stupidity fixed! World poverty abolished! Well....it fixes most of the problems. Quote the The SolutionÖ and sign to show your support! Nyxus PS- if anyone can post links to your rax getting pwned to show it's not uber I dare you to link them like Blackdog to prove it. |
 Nyxus GALAXIAN Rule of Three |
Posted - 2005.08.24 03:40:00 -
[2]
Read these again. Look at the times. This is clearly why the Rax dronebay + New 1600mm plate = teh overpwning wtfbbq THE SOLUTIONÖ
Look ma I fixed all the problems at once! Cruisers viable! Thorax balanced! Plated ceptor stupidity fixed! World poverty abolished! Well....it fixes most of the problems. Quote the The SolutionÖ and sign to show your support! Nyxus PS- if anyone can post links to your rax getting pwned to show it's not uber I dare you to link them like Blackdog to prove it.
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 Nyxus |
Posted - 2005.08.24 04:02:00 -
[3]
Well I used 3300 becuase that is the frighteningly large numbers that cruisers get from a T2 1600mm plate. It seems to be the consensus requirement for them to be viable in PvP anymore. Anyhoo, I could be convinced to give them the equivalent to an 800mm plate, but I learned a long time ago that if you ask high, you can back down a bit and still be happy. Nyxus |
Nyxus GALAXIAN Rule of Three |
Posted - 2005.08.24 04:02:00 -
[4]
Well I used 3300 becuase that is the frighteningly large numbers that cruisers get from a T2 1600mm plate. It seems to be the consensus requirement for them to be viable in PvP anymore. Anyhoo, I could be convinced to give them the equivalent to an 800mm plate, but I learned a long time ago that if you ask high, you can back down a bit and still be happy. Nyxus
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 Nyxus |
Posted - 2005.08.26 03:37:00 -
[5] Behold more Thorax pwnage. Thanks to my old alliance mate Chris Mutlisandi. We miss you mate. But the moral of the story is that the dronebay makes the Rax overpowered. With BS plates it makes it Uber. Rax Pwnage! Look carefully at his setup. Look as he eats a zealot, domi, and everything else. Name any other cruiser that can even come close. Nyxus |
Nyxus GALAXIAN Rule of Three |
Posted - 2005.08.26 03:37:00 -
[6] Behold more Thorax pwnage. Thanks to my old alliance mate Chris Mutlisandi. We miss you mate. But the moral of the story is that the dronebay makes the Rax overpowered. With BS plates it makes it Uber. Rax Pwnage! Look carefully at his setup. Look as he eats a zealot, domi, and everything else. Name any other cruiser that can even come close. Nyxus
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 Nyxus |
Posted - 2005.08.30 12:49:00 -
[7] Edited by: Nyxus on 30/08/2005 12:53:11
That's why I use medium beam II's on my plated rax with ogres. 24km range, best un-bonused small guns in the game. Cap is np with good skills. Alternatively you can use 150mm T2's. Both options give you 20km+ range with incredible tracking. Only nubs or those who KNOW they won't be engaging ceptors (aka pirates) put blasters on a Rax. I flew a plated Rax back in 03. The dronebay overpowered it then, the plate boost just exacerbated the problem. One final point to those who the the Rax is "just fine". If it is just fine, how bout giving the Omen 2 more turret slots and enough grid to fit them? Because that's how many more it would need to equalize the dps between the cruisers. Omen with 6 Heavy Beam II's =! balanced. Neither does a Rax with 5 guns and 8 wasps and a BS sized plate. Nyxus |
Nyxus GALAXIAN Rule of Three |
Posted - 2005.08.30 12:49:00 -
[8] Edited by: Nyxus on 30/08/2005 12:53:11
That's why I use medium beam II's on my plated rax with ogres. 24km range, best un-bonused small guns in the game. Cap is np with good skills. Alternatively you can use 150mm T2's. Both options give you 20km+ range with incredible tracking. Only nubs or those who KNOW they won't be engaging ceptors (aka pirates) put blasters on a Rax. I flew a plated Rax back in 03. The dronebay overpowered it then, the plate boost just exacerbated the problem. One final point to those who the the Rax is "just fine". If it is just fine, how bout giving the Omen 2 more turret slots and enough grid to fit them? Because that's how many more it would need to equalize the dps between the cruisers. Omen with 6 Heavy Beam II's =! balanced. Neither does a Rax with 5 guns and 8 wasps and a BS sized plate. Nyxus
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Nyxus GALAXIAN Rule of Three |
Posted - 2005.08.30 12:49:00 -
[9] Edited by: Nyxus on 30/08/2005 12:53:11
That's why I use medium beam II's on my plated rax with ogres. 24km range, best un-bonused small guns in the game. Cap is np with good skills. Alternatively you can use 150mm T2's. Both options give you 20km+ range with incredible tracking. Only nubs or those who KNOW they won't be engaging ceptors (aka pirates) put blasters on a Rax. I flew a plated Rax back in 03. The dronebay overpowered it then, the plate boost just exacerbated the problem. One final point to those who the the Rax is "just fine". If it is just fine, how bout giving the Omen 2 more turret slots and enough grid to fit them? Because that's how many more it would need to equalize the dps between the cruisers. Omen with 6 Heavy Beam II's =! balanced. Neither does a Rax with 5 guns and 8 wasps and a BS sized plate. Nyxus
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Nyxus |
Posted - 2005.08.30 16:11:00 -
[10]
That would make sense....... .............if my Heavy Drones and small Lasers/Rails weren't able to kill ceptors and other ships at 25km. I would hardly call that short range.  Give the Omen 6 turret hardpoints. Your shortrange Rax should never do more damage at medium range than my medium range specialty Omen according to you should it? I mean we all want to "boost cruisers up the the Rax level". Oh yea, the Thorax can do that type of damage and still mount a plate that adds 3300 armor. I want that for my Omen too. Omen with 6 heavy pulse II's and 3300 more armor plz.  It's silly to think that the aforementioned Omen would be balanced. It's just as silly to think that the Rax in it's current state is balanced. The dronebay should be reduced. Or if it wants to keep it's DPS and be short ranged king then limit it to blasters only and make its heavy drones limited to 5km. Oh wait that is silly too. Maybe we should just reduce it's dronebay then so it's in line with the other Gallente ships.  Nyxus |
Nyxus GALAXIAN Rule of Three |
Posted - 2005.08.30 16:11:00 -
[11]
That would make sense....... .............if my Heavy Drones and small Lasers/Rails weren't able to kill ceptors and other ships at 25km. I would hardly call that short range. Give the Omen 6 turret hardpoints. Your shortrange Rax should never do more damage at medium range than my medium range specialty Omen according to you should it? I mean we all want to "boost cruisers up the the Rax level". Oh yea, the Thorax can do that type of damage and still mount a plate that adds 3300 armor. I want that for my Omen too. Omen with 6 heavy pulse II's and 3300 more armor plz. It's silly to think that the aforementioned Omen would be balanced. It's just as silly to think that the Rax in it's current state is balanced. The dronebay should be reduced. Or if it wants to keep it's DPS and be short ranged king then limit it to blasters only and make its heavy drones limited to 5km. Oh wait that is silly too. Maybe we should just reduce it's dronebay then so it's in line with the other Gallente ships. Nyxus
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Nyxus GALAXIAN Rule of Three |
Posted - 2005.08.30 16:11:00 -
[12]
That would make sense....... .............if my Heavy Drones and small Lasers/Rails weren't able to kill ceptors and other ships at 25km. I would hardly call that short range. Give the Omen 6 turret hardpoints. Your shortrange Rax should never do more damage at medium range than my medium range specialty Omen according to you should it? I mean we all want to "boost cruisers up the the Rax level". Oh yea, the Thorax can do that type of damage and still mount a plate that adds 3300 armor. I want that for my Omen too. Omen with 6 heavy pulse II's and 3300 more armor plz. It's silly to think that the aforementioned Omen would be balanced. It's just as silly to think that the Rax in it's current state is balanced. The dronebay should be reduced. Or if it wants to keep it's DPS and be short ranged king then limit it to blasters only and make its heavy drones limited to 5km. Oh wait that is silly too. Maybe we should just reduce it's dronebay then so it's in line with the other Gallente ships. Nyxus
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Nyxus |
Posted - 2005.08.31 04:58:00 -
[13]
<sighs> I don't know why I try to convince people who are living with thier head in the sand.....but come back to reality plz. The Omen I suggested above (6 High Slots with Heavy Pulse II's) is sarcasm for those saying "teh rax is fine" and "just boost oth3r cruzers plz". Boosting the Omen to be equal of the Rax makes it absurdly powerful. Just as the Rax is absurdly powerful. It's DPS with 8 drones, ability to fit a BS plate for super durability , and enough high slots to slap in small T2 guns for 20km+ ranged killing power is just too much. No other cruiser, in *ANY* configuration can do what it does.
Read the entire thread. Yes I have considered those things. And the dronebay on the Rax is still overpowered. FYI - heavy drones can traverse 15km in roughly 13 seconds (1050m/s base speed + 1000m range on drones). And they do 200dps. They can't be taken out easily...heavies have a ton of armor, massive radial velocity, and as it was earlier calculated it's gonna take at least 3 or 4 cycles of a smartbomb to kill em, something like 50 seconds. 8 HEAVY DRONES ON A CRUISER IS TOO STRONG. My god man, how many videos of people killing *everything* in a Rax do you have to see? How many stories like Sorjas, equally set up cruisers getting pwned in 40 seconds do you need? How many killboard link examples of a Rax taking on 2 battleships and a cruiser - AND KILLING 2 OUT OF 3 do you need before you wake up and smell the coffee? Look at the numbers and show me why the Rax needs all the drone space. It has more armor, the same firepower, and more drones than any other cruiser out there. Where's the drawback? Lastly;
THE DRONEBAY IS TOO BIG Let's follow Lorth's sound advice. Read the thread before you post. It has been looked at from all the angles. The dronebay is too big. Reduce the dronebay to 100 to help balance all the cruisers. Then consider what we can do to boost cruisers as a whole. Cancel your membership to the Tard Squad people. It's not the plate. All cruisers can fit plates. Nothing else can fit 8 heavy drones. Nyxus |
Nyxus GALAXIAN Rule of Three |
Posted - 2005.08.31 04:58:00 -
[14]
<sighs> I don't know why I try to convince people who are living with thier head in the sand.....but come back to reality plz. The Omen I suggested above (6 High Slots with Heavy Pulse II's) is sarcasm for those saying "teh rax is fine" and "just boost oth3r cruzers plz". Boosting the Omen to be equal of the Rax makes it absurdly powerful. Just as the Rax is absurdly powerful. It's DPS with 8 drones, ability to fit a BS plate for super durability , and enough high slots to slap in small T2 guns for 20km+ ranged killing power is just too much. No other cruiser, in *ANY* configuration can do what it does.
Read the entire thread. Yes I have considered those things. And the dronebay on the Rax is still overpowered. FYI - heavy drones can traverse 15km in roughly 13 seconds (1050m/s base speed + 1000m range on drones). And they do 200dps. They can't be taken out easily...heavies have a ton of armor, massive radial velocity, and as it was earlier calculated it's gonna take at least 3 or 4 cycles of a smartbomb to kill em, something like 50 seconds. 8 HEAVY DRONES ON A CRUISER IS TOO STRONG. My god man, how many videos of people killing *everything* in a Rax do you have to see? How many stories like Sorjas, equally set up cruisers getting pwned in 40 seconds do you need? How many killboard link examples of a Rax taking on 2 battleships and a cruiser - AND KILLING 2 OUT OF 3 do you need before you wake up and smell the coffee? Look at the numbers and show me why the Rax needs all the drone space. It has more armor, the same firepower, and more drones than any other cruiser out there. Where's the drawback? Lastly;
THE DRONEBAY IS TOO BIG Let's follow Lorth's sound advice. Read the thread before you post. It has been looked at from all the angles. The dronebay is too big. Reduce the dronebay to 100 to help balance all the cruisers. Then consider what we can do to boost cruisers as a whole. Cancel your membership to the Tard Squad people. It's not the plate. All cruisers can fit plates. Nothing else can fit 8 heavy drones. Nyxus
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Nyxus GALAXIAN Rule of Three |
Posted - 2005.08.31 04:58:00 -
[15]
<sighs> I don't know why I try to convince people who are living with thier head in the sand.....but come back to reality plz. The Omen I suggested above (6 High Slots with Heavy Pulse II's) is sarcasm for those saying "teh rax is fine" and "just boost oth3r cruzers plz". Boosting the Omen to be equal of the Rax makes it absurdly powerful. Just as the Rax is absurdly powerful. It's DPS with 8 drones, ability to fit a BS plate for super durability , and enough high slots to slap in small T2 guns for 20km+ ranged killing power is just too much. No other cruiser, in *ANY* configuration can do what it does.
Read the entire thread. Yes I have considered those things. And the dronebay on the Rax is still overpowered. FYI - heavy drones can traverse 15km in roughly 13 seconds (1050m/s base speed + 1000m range on drones). And they do 200dps. They can't be taken out easily...heavies have a ton of armor, massive radial velocity, and as it was earlier calculated it's gonna take at least 3 or 4 cycles of a smartbomb to kill em, something like 50 seconds. 8 HEAVY DRONES ON A CRUISER IS TOO STRONG. My god man, how many videos of people killing *everything* in a Rax do you have to see? How many stories like Sorjas, equally set up cruisers getting pwned in 40 seconds do you need? How many killboard link examples of a Rax taking on 2 battleships and a cruiser - AND KILLING 2 OUT OF 3 do you need before you wake up and smell the coffee? Look at the numbers and show me why the Rax needs all the drone space. It has more armor, the same firepower, and more drones than any other cruiser out there. Where's the drawback? Lastly;
THE DRONEBAY IS TOO BIG Let's follow Lorth's sound advice. Read the thread before you post. It has been looked at from all the angles. The dronebay is too big. Reduce the dronebay to 100 to help balance all the cruisers. Then consider what we can do to boost cruisers as a whole. Cancel your membership to the Tard Squad people. It's not the plate. All cruisers can fit plates. Nothing else can fit 8 heavy drones. Nyxus
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Nyxus |
Posted - 2005.08.31 13:27:00 -
[16]
Without the boosted plates *ALL* cruisers are paper thin. One of the reasons for boosting the plate was to give cruisers a bit more survivability. It's not the problem because *ALL* cruisers can mount plates. The Thorax is the *ONLY* ship that does not suffer a massive DPS reduction when fitting Battleships plates. Thats the problem. Boosting all cruisers up to the Rax DPS with drones is silly becuase we end up with Omens with 6 Turret points and a 1600mm plate. Vexxors with 400 drone space. If these existed, why would I fly anything larger than a cruiser? The current Rax is not "Short Ranged". Heavy drones have an operating distance of 30km, while small guns have hitting power out to 25km. This is Medium Range. Why fly anything other than a Rax when you can have short range massive DPS out to 25km while still gaining massive armor hp from a plate? I would challenge any of those who don't want the Rax nerfed to come up with some numerical comparisons between cruisers to justify thier position. There have been numerous and sundry showing why the Rax has overpowering ranged DPS and durability. All I hear the Dronebay Reduction Opposition group saying is "Don't nerf my Rax I like being Uber" and "It's the plate, duh!". Show me some numbers on why it's balanced. I don't think they exist. Let me ask this - if the Megathron had the dronebay of the Dominix while keeping all it's current stats and could use Xlarge drones.....do you think anyone would fly anything else? Nyxus |
Nyxus GALAXIAN Rule of Three |
Posted - 2005.08.31 13:27:00 -
[17]
Without the boosted plates *ALL* cruisers are paper thin. One of the reasons for boosting the plate was to give cruisers a bit more survivability. It's not the problem because *ALL* cruisers can mount plates. The Thorax is the *ONLY* ship that does not suffer a massive DPS reduction when fitting Battleships plates. Thats the problem. Boosting all cruisers up to the Rax DPS with drones is silly becuase we end up with Omens with 6 Turret points and a 1600mm plate. Vexxors with 400 drone space. If these existed, why would I fly anything larger than a cruiser? The current Rax is not "Short Ranged". Heavy drones have an operating distance of 30km, while small guns have hitting power out to 25km. This is Medium Range. Why fly anything other than a Rax when you can have short range massive DPS out to 25km while still gaining massive armor hp from a plate? I would challenge any of those who don't want the Rax nerfed to come up with some numerical comparisons between cruisers to justify thier position. There have been numerous and sundry showing why the Rax has overpowering ranged DPS and durability. All I hear the Dronebay Reduction Opposition group saying is "Don't nerf my Rax I like being Uber" and "It's the plate, duh!". Show me some numbers on why it's balanced. I don't think they exist. Let me ask this - if the Megathron had the dronebay of the Dominix while keeping all it's current stats and could use Xlarge drones.....do you think anyone would fly anything else? Nyxus
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Nyxus GALAXIAN Rule of Three |
Posted - 2005.08.31 13:27:00 -
[18]
Without the boosted plates *ALL* cruisers are paper thin. One of the reasons for boosting the plate was to give cruisers a bit more survivability. It's not the problem because *ALL* cruisers can mount plates. The Thorax is the *ONLY* ship that does not suffer a massive DPS reduction when fitting Battleships plates. Thats the problem. Boosting all cruisers up to the Rax DPS with drones is silly becuase we end up with Omens with 6 Turret points and a 1600mm plate. Vexxors with 400 drone space. If these existed, why would I fly anything larger than a cruiser? The current Rax is not "Short Ranged". Heavy drones have an operating distance of 30km, while small guns have hitting power out to 25km. This is Medium Range. Why fly anything other than a Rax when you can have short range massive DPS out to 25km while still gaining massive armor hp from a plate? I would challenge any of those who don't want the Rax nerfed to come up with some numerical comparisons between cruisers to justify thier position. There have been numerous and sundry showing why the Rax has overpowering ranged DPS and durability. All I hear the Dronebay Reduction Opposition group saying is "Don't nerf my Rax I like being Uber" and "It's the plate, duh!". Show me some numbers on why it's balanced. I don't think they exist. Let me ask this - if the Megathron had the dronebay of the Dominix while keeping all it's current stats and could use Xlarge drones.....do you think anyone would fly anything else? Nyxus
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 Nyxus |
Posted - 2005.09.03 20:07:00 -
[19] I have been waiting for someone to calculate all the pertinent numbers for a plated cruiser comparison. When none was forthcoming I decided that there was nothing to be done but do it myself. The results themselves are not surprising, however the sheer % difference between ships was. ItÆs is crystal clear now why everyone flies the Rax over anything else. A couple of important points. All ships are based on the idea that they will mount thier races best long range small weapon for frig killing/best small missile and a 1600plate. This means all guns/Launchers are T2 versions. Since there are so many gunnery skills I have calculated DPS on base values as listed in the Item Database of Eve-O. Hence, Gun/Missile DPS values will be slightly below actual "live" performance. All drone damage is based on skilling Heavy Drones to 4. As this is the only common skill for Drone damage it was easy to incorporate. Therefore drone damage dps should be very, very close to actual use. I have used the top 2 cruisers from each race except the Caracal, as plates are fairly useless. I have included the Moa assuming that it will fit a 1600mm plate, even tho this is unlikely and perhaps impossible given its grid. As I do not fly Caldari cruisers I can't say, but wanted to at least include the Moa for comparison's sake. I hope beyond hope that CCP will adjust Shield Extenders similarly to plates to help even the playing field. Armor with Plate No suprises here, maller has 150 more armor than anything else. Interestingly enough, the close range ship the Stabber actually has 250 less armor than the other close range ship the Rax. The Thorax is 2nd only to the super defensive Maller.
Weapon Points and DPS Interesting results here. While the Matari have extra high weapon slots (6 vs 5 for other races) thier overall dps is lower with weapons. I would assume this is for the supposed greater flexibility that missiles grant. They have greater volley damage with projectiles with slightly lower DPS on the turrets as shown by comparison of the Moa. The Rax ties for first with the Maller if it uses small beam II's, but comes in a close 3rd if it uses it's racial T2 150's.
Dronebay Again no surpises other than sheer percentage. The Vexxor should have twice the dronebay as it needs it to make up the DPS on it's lack of turrets. But the Rax not only has more, it as over three times more than the Rupture, and Eight times more than the Omen. We start to see a discrepency......
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Nyxus GALAXIAN Rule of Three |
Posted - 2005.09.03 20:07:00 -
[20] I have been waiting for someone to calculate all the pertinent numbers for a plated cruiser comparison. When none was forthcoming I decided that there was nothing to be done but do it myself. The results themselves are not surprising, however the sheer % difference between ships was. ItÆs is crystal clear now why everyone flies the Rax over anything else. A couple of important points. All ships are based on the idea that they will mount thier races best long range small weapon for frig killing/best small missile and a 1600plate. This means all guns/Launchers are T2 versions. Since there are so many gunnery skills I have calculated DPS on base values as listed in the Item Database of Eve-O. Hence, Gun/Missile DPS values will be slightly below actual "live" performance. All drone damage is based on skilling Heavy Drones to 4. As this is the only common skill for Drone damage it was easy to incorporate. Therefore drone damage dps should be very, very close to actual use. I have used the top 2 cruisers from each race except the Caracal, as plates are fairly useless. I have included the Moa assuming that it will fit a 1600mm plate, even tho this is unlikely and perhaps impossible given its grid. As I do not fly Caldari cruisers I can't say, but wanted to at least include the Moa for comparison's sake. I hope beyond hope that CCP will adjust Shield Extenders similarly to plates to help even the playing field. Armor with Plate No suprises here, maller has 150 more armor than anything else. Interestingly enough, the close range ship the Stabber actually has 250 less armor than the other close range ship the Rax. The Thorax is 2nd only to the super defensive Maller.
Weapon Points and DPS Interesting results here. While the Matari have extra high weapon slots (6 vs 5 for other races) thier overall dps is lower with weapons. I would assume this is for the supposed greater flexibility that missiles grant. They have greater volley damage with projectiles with slightly lower DPS on the turrets as shown by comparison of the Moa. The Rax ties for first with the Maller if it uses small beam II's, but comes in a close 3rd if it uses it's racial T2 150's.
Dronebay Again no surpises other than sheer percentage. The Vexxor should have twice the dronebay as it needs it to make up the DPS on it's lack of turrets. But the Rax not only has more, it as over three times more than the Rupture, and Eight times more than the Omen. We start to see a discrepency......
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Nyxus GALAXIAN Rule of Three |
Posted - 2005.09.03 20:07:00 -
[21] I have been waiting for someone to calculate all the pertinent numbers for a plated cruiser comparison. When none was forthcoming I decided that there was nothing to be done but do it myself. The results themselves are not surprising, however the sheer % difference between ships was. ItÆs is crystal clear now why everyone flies the Rax over anything else. A couple of important points. All ships are based on the idea that they will mount thier races best long range small weapon for frig killing/best small missile and a 1600plate. This means all guns/Launchers are T2 versions. Since there are so many gunnery skills I have calculated DPS on base values as listed in the Item Database of Eve-O. Hence, Gun/Missile DPS values will be slightly below actual "live" performance. All drone damage is based on skilling Heavy Drones to 4. As this is the only common skill for Drone damage it was easy to incorporate. Therefore drone damage dps should be very, very close to actual use. I have used the top 2 cruisers from each race except the Caracal, as plates are fairly useless. I have included the Moa assuming that it will fit a 1600mm plate, even tho this is unlikely and perhaps impossible given its grid. As I do not fly Caldari cruisers I can't say, but wanted to at least include the Moa for comparison's sake. I hope beyond hope that CCP will adjust Shield Extenders similarly to plates to help even the playing field. Armor with Plate No suprises here, maller has 150 more armor than anything else. Interestingly enough, the close range ship the Stabber actually has 250 less armor than the other close range ship the Rax. The Thorax is 2nd only to the super defensive Maller.
Weapon Points and DPS Interesting results here. While the Matari have extra high weapon slots (6 vs 5 for other races) thier overall dps is lower with weapons. I would assume this is for the supposed greater flexibility that missiles grant. They have greater volley damage with projectiles with slightly lower DPS on the turrets as shown by comparison of the Moa. The Rax ties for first with the Maller if it uses small beam II's, but comes in a close 3rd if it uses it's racial T2 150's.
Dronebay Again no surpises other than sheer percentage. The Vexxor should have twice the dronebay as it needs it to make up the DPS on it's lack of turrets. But the Rax not only has more, it as over three times more than the Rupture, and Eight times more than the Omen. We start to see a discrepency......
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 Nyxus |
Posted - 2005.09.03 20:09:00 -
[22] Drone DPS With Heavy Drones 4 (easy to achieve) Drone DPS is as follows; Heavy - 21.12 DPS, Medium - 8.64 DPS, Light - 3.84 DPS. All numbers are rounded for ease of use. The Vexxor is high on the list since it was low on the list for turrets, and this seems to follow for all other ships. The Thorax however is an aberration as it tops both.
Total DPS This is where it just gets scary. A drone ship DPS should be slightly higher than a turret ship, as drones take time to reach target, can be destroyed, are sometimes stupid. But here it is clearly evidenced how overpowering the DPS is on a ship that has the highest Turret DPS, Drone DPS, while sporting the 2nd most armor in it's class. 
Thats right - The Thorax does twice the DPS of a Rupture, three times that of Moa, and FOURof a Maller. Doesn't that seem a little excessive? Total DPS over a 60 second Interval A lot of the Rax supporters say that the time it takes for drones to travel to a target 15km away takes away from the overall damage. So I have calculated a scenario in which the Thorax starts a fight at 15km from it's target and releases drones. Heavy drones have an optimal of 1000km +4000km falloff leaving them 10km of distance to travel while inflicting zero damage. Heavy drones traveling 1050m/s cross this distance in 10 seconds. In this 15km scenario the 8 heavy drones inflict damage for 50sec (60sec-10sec for travel). The total damage in a 60 second instance for each ships turrets plus drones is as follows:
Again we see clearly why the Thorax is overpowered. An average three times the damage output over 60 seconds starting at 15km over any other cruiser. This is while having the second best armor in it's class. Shooting down the Rax's drones is not an option, as the Heavy drones have a combined armor total of 2400hp. The Thorax's drones are the equivalent of an extra cruisers worth of armor and firepower. The solution is clear. Reduce the Thorax Dronebay to 100. This still leaves the Thorax stronger (considerably) than other cruisers, but at least it's a bit closer. The other solution is to limit all cruiser's dronebays to medium drones only. This would reduce the total damage potential of the Thorax, but other cruisers as well. Rather than place an arbitrary restriction on all cruisers I would rather adjust just one. All cruisers are not totally "teh suck" - but they are when compared to the Thorax. After the Rax's dronebay is adjusted here is what can be done to help all cruisers. |
Nyxus |
Posted - 2005.09.03 20:09:00 -
[23] OMG help for cruisers! Some of the setups above were not reasonable because the comparison needed an "apples to apples" base from which to compare. The Moa and Stabber come mind. However, since these are by far the currently most accepted setups for most ships we can see we can make some suggestions based on these setups.
More survivability is critical. With an 800mm plate cruisers + the new armor base cruisers would reach where there are curretly with a 1600mm plate. This is about right.
These changes are coming in Mk2. Thank you CCP. It's needed. Please don't forget Battlecruisers though. They are just a bit better than Cruisers, but are more like battleships in handling/sig radius. Mk2 Battlecruisers should be where T1 Cruisers are now.
With the MK2 changes, Medium Turrets and Missiles need to be adjusted so they can hit medium targets better than any other weapons, including small T2. The smallest Medium weapons should have similar tracking and sig rad of the largest T2 small weapons. This would encourage the use of Medium Weapons on Medium (Cruiser) vessels. The fact that small T2 weapons have better damage and tracking than the medium weapons meant to go on a cruiser is utterly retarded. A Medium Beam II (small laser) should never be doing better more consistant damage on cruisers and BS than a Heavy Pulse I(or II). Currently this is not so. The greater fitting and firing requirements should be rewarded by better damage. Cruisers are made for cruiser weapons. T2 smalls should not be the best for all occasions.
Think about it. All weapons have a lower limit to sig radius at which point the guns hit extremely poor. They should also have an upper limit at which point they cease to gain any advantage. T2 small weapons that wreck and hit for "perfect" every time when placed on a cruiser will beat any cruiser weapon that hits for "average" becuase of sig rad. Additionally these small weapons hit frigates 100x better than Medium weapons. Medium weapons on Medium ships for Medium Targets. This will provide more incentive to put medium weaps on cruisers, as well as give T2 (and T1) destroyers more of a niche. Right now, destroyers are redundant because Cruisers with Small Weaps fill the anti-frigate role as well as the anti-cruiser role adequetly with small T2 weapons. If Cruisers equipped Medium Weaps (and used thier bonuses as well) then destroyers would have a place by destroying friggies Well there you go folks. The reasons why the Rax needs adjustment as well as cruiser fixes. Your thoughts are appreciated, however, more substantial numerical analysis to refute the ones I have put forward will be taken more seriously. If you just post your biased opinion (omg i luv mah rax, leave it alone or go trane 4 an uber rax) without any backing and you will be ignored. Nyxus |
Nyxus GALAXIAN Rule of Three |
Posted - 2005.09.03 20:09:00 -
[24] Drone DPS With Heavy Drones 4 (easy to achieve) Drone DPS is as follows; Heavy - 21.12 DPS, Medium - 8.64 DPS, Light - 3.84 DPS. All numbers are rounded for ease of use. The Vexxor is high on the list since it was low on the list for turrets, and this seems to follow for all other ships. The Thorax however is an aberration as it tops both.
Total DPS This is where it just gets scary. A drone ship DPS should be slightly higher than a turret ship, as drones take time to reach target, can be destroyed, are sometimes stupid. But here it is clearly evidenced how overpowering the DPS is on a ship that has the highest Turret DPS, Drone DPS, while sporting the 2nd most armor in it's class.
Thats right - The Thorax does twice the DPS of a Rupture, three times that of Moa, and FOURof a Maller. Doesn't that seem a little excessive? Total DPS over a 60 second Interval A lot of the Rax supporters say that the time it takes for drones to travel to a target 15km away takes away from the overall damage. So I have calculated a scenario in which the Thorax starts a fight at 15km from it's target and releases drones. Heavy drones have an optimal of 1000km +4000km falloff leaving them 10km of distance to travel while inflicting zero damage. Heavy drones traveling 1050m/s cross this distance in 10 seconds. In this 15km scenario the 8 heavy drones inflict damage for 50sec (60sec-10sec for travel). The total damage in a 60 second instance for each ships turrets plus drones is as follows:
Again we see clearly why the Thorax is overpowered. An average three times the damage output over 60 seconds starting at 15km over any other cruiser. This is while having the second best armor in it's class. Shooting down the Rax's drones is not an option, as the Heavy drones have a combined armor total of 2400hp. The Thorax's drones are the equivalent of an extra cruisers worth of armor and firepower. The solution is clear. Reduce the Thorax Dronebay to 100. This still leaves the Thorax stronger (considerably) than other cruisers, but at least it's a bit closer. The other solution is to limit all cruiser's dronebays to medium drones only. This would reduce the total damage potential of the Thorax, but other cruisers as well. Rather than place an arbitrary restriction on all cruisers I would rather adjust just one. All cruisers are not totally "teh suck" - but they are when compared to the Thorax. After the Rax's dronebay is adjusted here is what can be done to help all cruisers. |
Nyxus GALAXIAN Rule of Three |
Posted - 2005.09.03 20:09:00 -
[25] OMG help for cruisers! Some of the setups above were not reasonable because the comparison needed an "apples to apples" base from which to compare. The Moa and Stabber come mind. However, since these are by far the currently most accepted setups for most ships we can see we can make some suggestions based on these setups.
More survivability is critical. With an 800mm plate cruisers + the new armor base cruisers would reach where there are curretly with a 1600mm plate. This is about right.
These changes are coming in Mk2. Thank you CCP. It's needed. Please don't forget Battlecruisers though. They are just a bit better than Cruisers, but are more like battleships in handling/sig radius. Mk2 Battlecruisers should be where T1 Cruisers are now.
With the MK2 changes, Medium Turrets and Missiles need to be adjusted so they can hit medium targets better than any other weapons, including small T2. The smallest Medium weapons should have similar tracking and sig rad of the largest T2 small weapons. This would encourage the use of Medium Weapons on Medium (Cruiser) vessels. The fact that small T2 weapons have better damage and tracking than the medium weapons meant to go on a cruiser is utterly retarded. A Medium Beam II (small laser) should never be doing better more consistant damage on cruisers and BS than a Heavy Pulse I(or II). Currently this is not so. The greater fitting and firing requirements should be rewarded by better damage. Cruisers are made for cruiser weapons. T2 smalls should not be the best for all occasions.
Think about it. All weapons have a lower limit to sig radius at which point the guns hit extremely poor. They should also have an upper limit at which point they cease to gain any advantage. T2 small weapons that wreck and hit for "perfect" every time when placed on a cruiser will beat any cruiser weapon that hits for "average" becuase of sig rad. Additionally these small weapons hit frigates 100x better than Medium weapons. Medium weapons on Medium ships for Medium Targets. This will provide more incentive to put medium weaps on cruisers, as well as give T2 (and T1) destroyers more of a niche. Right now, destroyers are redundant because Cruisers with Small Weaps fill the anti-frigate role as well as the anti-cruiser role adequetly with small T2 weapons. If Cruisers equipped Medium Weaps (and used thier bonuses as well) then destroyers would have a place by destroying friggies Well there you go folks. The reasons why the Rax needs adjustment as well as cruiser fixes. Your thoughts are appreciated, however, more substantial numerical analysis to refute the ones I have put forward will be taken more seriously. If you just post your biased opinion (omg i luv mah rax, leave it alone or go trane 4 an uber rax) without any backing and you will be ignored. Nyxus
|
Nyxus GALAXIAN Rule of Three |
Posted - 2005.09.03 20:09:00 -
[26] Drone DPS With Heavy Drones 4 (easy to achieve) Drone DPS is as follows; Heavy - 21.12 DPS, Medium - 8.64 DPS, Light - 3.84 DPS. All numbers are rounded for ease of use. The Vexxor is high on the list since it was low on the list for turrets, and this seems to follow for all other ships. The Thorax however is an aberration as it tops both.
Total DPS This is where it just gets scary. A drone ship DPS should be slightly higher than a turret ship, as drones take time to reach target, can be destroyed, are sometimes stupid. But here it is clearly evidenced how overpowering the DPS is on a ship that has the highest Turret DPS, Drone DPS, while sporting the 2nd most armor in it's class.
Thats right - The Thorax does twice the DPS of a Rupture, three times that of Moa, and FOURof a Maller. Doesn't that seem a little excessive? Total DPS over a 60 second Interval A lot of the Rax supporters say that the time it takes for drones to travel to a target 15km away takes away from the overall damage. So I have calculated a scenario in which the Thorax starts a fight at 15km from it's target and releases drones. Heavy drones have an optimal of 1000km +4000km falloff leaving them 10km of distance to travel while inflicting zero damage. Heavy drones traveling 1050m/s cross this distance in 10 seconds. In this 15km scenario the 8 heavy drones inflict damage for 50sec (60sec-10sec for travel). The total damage in a 60 second instance for each ships turrets plus drones is as follows:
Again we see clearly why the Thorax is overpowered. An average three times the damage output over 60 seconds starting at 15km over any other cruiser. This is while having the second best armor in it's class. Shooting down the Rax's drones is not an option, as the Heavy drones have a combined armor total of 2400hp. The Thorax's drones are the equivalent of an extra cruisers worth of armor and firepower. The solution is clear. Reduce the Thorax Dronebay to 100. This still leaves the Thorax stronger (considerably) than other cruisers, but at least it's a bit closer. The other solution is to limit all cruiser's dronebays to medium drones only. This would reduce the total damage potential of the Thorax, but other cruisers as well. Rather than place an arbitrary restriction on all cruisers I would rather adjust just one. All cruisers are not totally "teh suck" - but they are when compared to the Thorax. After the Rax's dronebay is adjusted here is what can be done to help all cruisers. |
Nyxus GALAXIAN Rule of Three |
Posted - 2005.09.03 20:09:00 -
[27] OMG help for cruisers! Some of the setups above were not reasonable because the comparison needed an "apples to apples" base from which to compare. The Moa and Stabber come mind. However, since these are by far the currently most accepted setups for most ships we can see we can make some suggestions based on these setups.
More survivability is critical. With an 800mm plate cruisers + the new armor base cruisers would reach where there are curretly with a 1600mm plate. This is about right.
These changes are coming in Mk2. Thank you CCP. It's needed. Please don't forget Battlecruisers though. They are just a bit better than Cruisers, but are more like battleships in handling/sig radius. Mk2 Battlecruisers should be where T1 Cruisers are now.
With the MK2 changes, Medium Turrets and Missiles need to be adjusted so they can hit medium targets better than any other weapons, including small T2. The smallest Medium weapons should have similar tracking and sig rad of the largest T2 small weapons. This would encourage the use of Medium Weapons on Medium (Cruiser) vessels. The fact that small T2 weapons have better damage and tracking than the medium weapons meant to go on a cruiser is utterly retarded. A Medium Beam II (small laser) should never be doing better more consistant damage on cruisers and BS than a Heavy Pulse I(or II). Currently this is not so. The greater fitting and firing requirements should be rewarded by better damage. Cruisers are made for cruiser weapons. T2 smalls should not be the best for all occasions.
Think about it. All weapons have a lower limit to sig radius at which point the guns hit extremely poor. They should also have an upper limit at which point they cease to gain any advantage. T2 small weapons that wreck and hit for "perfect" every time when placed on a cruiser will beat any cruiser weapon that hits for "average" becuase of sig rad. Additionally these small weapons hit frigates 100x better than Medium weapons. Medium weapons on Medium ships for Medium Targets. This will provide more incentive to put medium weaps on cruisers, as well as give T2 (and T1) destroyers more of a niche. Right now, destroyers are redundant because Cruisers with Small Weaps fill the anti-frigate role as well as the anti-cruiser role adequetly with small T2 weapons. If Cruisers equipped Medium Weaps (and used thier bonuses as well) then destroyers would have a place by destroying friggies Well there you go folks. The reasons why the Rax needs adjustment as well as cruiser fixes. Your thoughts are appreciated, however, more substantial numerical analysis to refute the ones I have put forward will be taken more seriously. If you just post your biased opinion (omg i luv mah rax, leave it alone or go trane 4 an uber rax) without any backing and you will be ignored. Nyxus
|
 Nyxus |
Posted - 2005.09.04 01:25:00 -
[28] Ithildin - I have to agree with your line of thought. I am interested in the same numbers. I will start the process of crunching in the next couple of days. I will use my skills for base grid/cpu etc but if people here know decent turrets to use for each ship I would appreciate the input. I will probably use base values for turrets again so as to have an apples to apples comparison while using my base skills as a frame of reference for each ship. Ship fitter 4tw! I hope some sort of drawback is provided for oversized plates soon. Sig Rad hopefully as I am sick of seeing every inty sport a 400mm plate. 
I would guess about a month minimum, maybe 5 weeks. You need Cruiser 4, T2 Beams or Rails, and Heavy Drones 4. A few other engineering skills for cap and such, although its not very hard to fit the small guns and plate.
Because the Rax does TWICE the damage of the Rupture while having the SAME armor? Why do you continue to focus on plates when it's the damage output of the drones that are unbalanced? Nyxus |
Nyxus GALAXIAN Rule of Three |
Posted - 2005.09.04 01:25:00 -
[29] Ithildin - I have to agree with your line of thought. I am interested in the same numbers. I will start the process of crunching in the next couple of days. I will use my skills for base grid/cpu etc but if people here know decent turrets to use for each ship I would appreciate the input. I will probably use base values for turrets again so as to have an apples to apples comparison while using my base skills as a frame of reference for each ship. Ship fitter 4tw! I hope some sort of drawback is provided for oversized plates soon. Sig Rad hopefully as I am sick of seeing every inty sport a 400mm plate.
I would guess about a month minimum, maybe 5 weeks. You need Cruiser 4, T2 Beams or Rails, and Heavy Drones 4. A few other engineering skills for cap and such, although its not very hard to fit the small guns and plate.
Because the Rax does TWICE the damage of the Rupture while having the SAME armor? Why do you continue to focus on plates when it's the damage output of the drones that are unbalanced? Nyxus
|
Nyxus GALAXIAN Rule of Three |
Posted - 2005.09.04 01:25:00 -
[30] Ithildin - I have to agree with your line of thought. I am interested in the same numbers. I will start the process of crunching in the next couple of days. I will use my skills for base grid/cpu etc but if people here know decent turrets to use for each ship I would appreciate the input. I will probably use base values for turrets again so as to have an apples to apples comparison while using my base skills as a frame of reference for each ship. Ship fitter 4tw! I hope some sort of drawback is provided for oversized plates soon. Sig Rad hopefully as I am sick of seeing every inty sport a 400mm plate.
I would guess about a month minimum, maybe 5 weeks. You need Cruiser 4, T2 Beams or Rails, and Heavy Drones 4. A few other engineering skills for cap and such, although its not very hard to fit the small guns and plate.
Because the Rax does TWICE the damage of the Rupture while having the SAME armor? Why do you continue to focus on plates when it's the damage output of the drones that are unbalanced? Nyxus
|
 Nyxus |
Posted - 2005.09.04 01:58:00 -
[31]
8 Heavy drones have 2400 armor - that is the equivalent to TWO unplated Thorax. Medium drones do......8 DPS. Yeah that will be easy to take out as they circle you at 1000m/s. The Maller has the same number of Turret slots as the Thorax. That last slot you can fit....uhh.....not much. You can't even fit a Nos becuase of the fitting reqs. That last high slot is useless in 90% of the fittings. And don's say a smartbomb, look at the fittings, then go fire one up in empire. Oh yea, they dont work near gates or stations either. The Maller has an extra low slot for defence. The Thorax would still have 100 more dronebay than the Maller. It just doesnt need 200.  Nyxus |
Nyxus GALAXIAN Rule of Three |
Posted - 2005.09.04 01:58:00 -
[32]
8 Heavy drones have 2400 armor - that is the equivalent to TWO unplated Thorax. Medium drones do......8 DPS. Yeah that will be easy to take out as they circle you at 1000m/s. The Maller has the same number of Turret slots as the Thorax. That last slot you can fit....uhh.....not much. You can't even fit a Nos becuase of the fitting reqs. That last high slot is useless in 90% of the fittings. And don's say a smartbomb, look at the fittings, then go fire one up in empire. Oh yea, they dont work near gates or stations either. The Maller has an extra low slot for defence. The Thorax would still have 100 more dronebay than the Maller. It just doesnt need 200. Nyxus
|
Nyxus GALAXIAN Rule of Three |
Posted - 2005.09.04 01:58:00 -
[33]
8 Heavy drones have 2400 armor - that is the equivalent to TWO unplated Thorax. Medium drones do......8 DPS. Yeah that will be easy to take out as they circle you at 1000m/s. The Maller has the same number of Turret slots as the Thorax. That last slot you can fit....uhh.....not much. You can't even fit a Nos becuase of the fitting reqs. That last high slot is useless in 90% of the fittings. And don's say a smartbomb, look at the fittings, then go fire one up in empire. Oh yea, they dont work near gates or stations either. The Maller has an extra low slot for defence. The Thorax would still have 100 more dronebay than the Maller. It just doesnt need 200. Nyxus
|
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