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| Author | Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 1 post(s) |
 j0sephine    |
Posted - 2005.08.22 18:07:00 -
[1] "Thoraxes do most of their damage with drones, you can't just take them away and say it would balance the game (..)" Isn't that because people slap the battleship sized plate on the Thorax, fit tiny guns that the remaining grid allows, and rely on the drones to do the damage dealing part..? ^^;; (which is hardly surprising when you consider 8 heavy drones deal as much damage as 5 heavy ions with Thorax damage bonus... why do the ship that already can do devastating damage with guns, need that damage output doubled thanks to all drones? >>;; |
 j0sephine |
Posted - 2005.08.23 23:19:00 -
[2] "Plate almost became a necessity because a non-plated thorax will generally die before it ever gets into blaster range. 1600mm plate means small guns. Small guns means the drones have to take up the burden of damage." People flied Thoraxes before the armour plates got the boost. You didn't really hear them ***** "omg i die too fast and don't do enough damage to kill things after i get within range". There wasn't really much *****ing about Thorax being overpowered, either. Was pretty clear deal: you managed to kill approaching Thorax, you won. You didn't, you were screwed. There's lot of complaints about Thorax' "uberperformance" after the plate boost, though. Coincidence? maybe... or maybe the 'high damage at price of high fragility' balance thing got tipped somehow. >>; |
 j0sephine Caldari Reikoku Band of Brothers |
Posted - 2005.08.23 23:19:00 -
[3] "Plate almost became a necessity because a non-plated thorax will generally die before it ever gets into blaster range. 1600mm plate means small guns. Small guns means the drones have to take up the burden of damage." People flied Thoraxes before the armour plates got the boost. You didn't really hear them ***** "omg i die too fast and don't do enough damage to kill things after i get within range". There wasn't really much *****ing about Thorax being overpowered, either. Was pretty clear deal: you managed to kill approaching Thorax, you won. You didn't, you were screwed. There's lot of complaints about Thorax' "uberperformance" after the plate boost, though. Coincidence? maybe... or maybe the 'high damage at price of high fragility' balance thing got tipped somehow. >>; |
 j0sephine |
Posted - 2005.08.23 23:28:00 -
[4] Edited by: j0sephine on 23/08/2005 23:29:03 "Now, j0sephine, you're talking about something completely different. I can at least yield to (if not completely buy into) the idea that battleship-sized plate makes a thorax overpowered." It's probably the combination of these two things that makes thing go out of whack ^^; Thorax with heavy drones but light defense: okay Thorax with good armour but light weapons: okay Thorax with heavy drones and good armour: omgwtfbbq one has to give... and i suppose it's easier for people to ask about nerf aimed specifically at one ship that stands out the most(Thorax' drone bay) instead of all cruisers (oversized plates) ^^;; |
j0sephine Caldari Reikoku Band of Brothers |
Posted - 2005.08.23 23:28:00 -
[5] Edited by: j0sephine on 23/08/2005 23:29:03 "Now, j0sephine, you're talking about something completely different. I can at least yield to (if not completely buy into) the idea that battleship-sized plate makes a thorax overpowered." It's probably the combination of these two things that makes thing go out of whack ^^; Thorax with heavy drones but light defense: okay Thorax with good armour but light weapons: okay Thorax with heavy drones and good armour: omgwtfbbq one has to give... and i suppose it's easier for people to ask about nerf aimed specifically at one ship that stands out the most(Thorax' drone bay) instead of all cruisers (oversized plates) ^^;; |
 j0sephine |
Posted - 2005.08.24 03:05:00 -
[6] "If you referr to heavy drones, heavy drones are not a bs gun. It says no where that heavy drones are bs guns. Is it because it says heavy beside it? I donno if you noticed but all cruiser sized weapons say heavy beside it e.g. heavy launcher, heavy electron blaster ect..." I'd guess it's because drones come in three sizes: small, medium and heavy. Just like ship weapons come in three sizes: small, medium and large. (the actual names are largely irrelevant... lasers are named 'medium' 'heavy' and 'mega' while missile launchers are named 'standard' 'heavy' and 'siege') |
j0sephine Caldari Reikoku Band of Brothers |
Posted - 2005.08.24 03:05:00 -
[7] Edited by: j0sephine on 24/08/2005 03:07:55 "If you referr to heavy drones, heavy drones are not a bs gun. It says no where that heavy drones are bs guns. Is it because it says heavy beside it? I donno if you noticed but all cruiser sized weapons say heavy beside it e.g. heavy launcher, heavy electron blaster ect..." I'd guess it's because drones come in three sizes: small, medium and heavy. Just like ship weapons come in three sizes: small, medium and large*. (the actual names are largely irrelevant... lasers are named 'medium' 'heavy' and 'mega' while missile launchers are named 'standard' 'heavy' and 'siege') *) there's obviously 'x-large' ones as well now, but then it's also been announced carriers as capital ships might get their own suitably larger drone size as well |
 j0sephine |
Posted - 2005.08.24 03:47:00 -
[8] "THE SOLUTIONÖ
o.o;; uhmm, make that 2-2.5k for (battle)cruisers and something like 1k for frigates, maybe? I mean, i don't really mind a Moa with more shield than a Scorpion... but the tier I battleship pilots would probably mind it -,o; |
j0sephine Caldari Reikoku Band of Brothers |
Posted - 2005.08.24 03:47:00 -
[9] Edited by: j0sephine on 24/08/2005 03:47:04 "THE SOLUTIONÖ
o.o;; uhmm, make that 2-2.5k for (battle)cruisers and something like 1k for frigates, maybe? I mean, i don't really mind a Moa with more shield than a Scorpion... but the tier I battleship pilots would probably mind it -,o; |
j0sephine |
Posted - 2005.08.24 05:00:00 -
[10] Edited by: j0sephine on 24/08/2005 05:02:10 "Med guns by the way have so little advantage over frig one both in dps, and in case of blasters range, that practicaly there is no point in med guns at all, since they dont have real role now." Uhmm... * light electron blaster, skills maxed, no ship bonus: 13.84 dps * heavy electron blaster, skills maxed, Thorax bonus: 23.33 dps if ~70% more damage is 'little advantage' then it's kinda scary to think what a 'fair advantage' would be... :/ (the difference is same between 125mm rails and the 200mm rails, btw) |
j0sephine Caldari Reikoku Band of Brothers |
Posted - 2005.08.24 05:00:00 -
[11] Edited by: j0sephine on 24/08/2005 05:02:10 "Med guns by the way have so little advantage over frig one both in dps, and in case of blasters range, that practicaly there is no point in med guns at all, since they dont have real role now." Uhmm... * light electron blaster, skills maxed, no ship bonus: 13.84 dps * heavy electron blaster, skills maxed, Thorax bonus: 23.33 dps if ~70% more damage is 'little advantage' then it's kinda scary to think what a 'fair advantage' would be... :/ (the difference is same between 125mm rails and the 200mm rails, btw) |
 j0sephine |
Posted - 2005.08.24 13:57:00 -
[12] "light electron blaster: 4 power grid requirement heavy electron blaster: 100 power grid requirement That 70% damage increase is suddenly devalued when you consider the plethora of fitting options (read: battleship plate) opened up to a thorax pilot, shockingly, because they can still do a huge amount of damage through drones." Congratulations, you summed up everything that's wrong with a Thorax in a single sentence -- that is, the ability to mount battleship sized defense and *still* do huge amount of damage... like no other cruiser. "The damage increase is not worth the huge power grid requirement." How much damage *would* be worth that grid increase then? 100%... 200%... 500%? more that that, even..? "As a side point it's interesting that Caldari cruiser weapons only use 100 grid all 'round when the weakest cruiser blaster uses the same and has ~1/50th the range for totallynotworthit damage." Caldari cruiser weapons do also ~40% less damage than cruiser turrets. If they costed as much grid as other turrets with this kind of sh.tty performance, you'd likely have either bbq party at CCP headquarters or no one would be using them... |
j0sephine Caldari Reikoku Band of Brothers |
Posted - 2005.08.24 13:57:00 -
[13] "light electron blaster: 4 power grid requirement heavy electron blaster: 100 power grid requirement That 70% damage increase is suddenly devalued when you consider the plethora of fitting options (read: battleship plate) opened up to a thorax pilot, shockingly, because they can still do a huge amount of damage through drones." Congratulations, you summed up everything that's wrong with a Thorax in a single sentence -- that is, the ability to mount battleship sized defense and *still* do huge amount of damage... like no other cruiser. "The damage increase is not worth the huge power grid requirement." How much damage *would* be worth that grid increase then? 100%... 200%... 500%? more that that, even..? "As a side point it's interesting that Caldari cruiser weapons only use 100 grid all 'round when the weakest cruiser blaster uses the same and has ~1/50th the range for totallynotworthit damage." Caldari cruiser weapons do also ~40% less damage than cruiser turrets. If they costed as much grid as other turrets with this kind of sh.tty performance, you'd likely have either bbq party at CCP headquarters or no one would be using them... |
 j0sephine |
Posted - 2005.08.24 14:03:00 -
[14] "and the guns you should be looking at are the tech 2 light neutrons everyone runs on there rax, you'll find there almost identical dps to Heavy Electrons" * light electron blaster II: 18.27 dps * heavy electron blaster I with Thorax bonus: 23.33 dps (27% more) * heavy electron blaster II with Thorax bonus: 30.80 dps (68% more) hardly 'almost identical' but then certainly not worth giving up battleship-sized plate, when mounting that plate doesn't actually cost you anything in terms of the performance drawbacks... |
j0sephine Caldari Reikoku Band of Brothers |
Posted - 2005.08.24 14:03:00 -
[15] "and the guns you should be looking at are the tech 2 light neutrons everyone runs on there rax, you'll find there almost identical dps to Heavy Electrons" * light electron blaster II: 18.27 dps * heavy electron blaster I with Thorax bonus: 23.33 dps (27% more) * heavy electron blaster II with Thorax bonus: 30.80 dps (68% more) hardly 'almost identical' but then certainly not worth giving up battleship-sized plate, when mounting that plate doesn't actually cost you anything in terms of the performance drawbacks... |
j0sephine |
Posted - 2005.08.24 18:51:00 -
[16] "IMO medium blasters seems to use a silly amount of grid despite the very average dps. Could do with a grid reduction perhaps ... ?" ... "very average dps" compared to what other medium weapon? o.O; come on, this is really playing down things bit too much... the 'smallest' medium blasters outdamage the longer range weapons by some 40-60% ... and do 2-2.5x the damage of medium missiles. About the only thing that comes close to them in performance is the autocannons. Which is overall okay, means the blastership can be taken quite a bit in the armour on the approach and still stands the fair chance of winning if it gets the other guy within fire range by then... that's with guns alone. Drones added on top of it make it so one sided it's not even funny. o.O; (if there's one thing that's pretty odd in overall picture, it's the fitting requirements of autocannons across the board... pretty light in comparison to blasters, use way less cap if at all, can mix damage types and the performance is pretty close to what the blasters can do. I suppose one could argue blasters should get tiny grid reduction while autocannons might use very tiny increase of the grid they need. I said 'tiny', mind you -.o |
j0sephine Caldari Reikoku Band of Brothers |
Posted - 2005.08.24 18:51:00 -
[17] "IMO medium blasters seems to use a silly amount of grid despite the very average dps. Could do with a grid reduction perhaps ... ?" ... "very average dps" compared to what other medium weapon? o.O; come on, this is really playing down things bit too much... the 'smallest' medium blasters outdamage the longer range weapons by some 40-60% ... and do 2-2.5x the damage of medium missiles. About the only thing that comes close to them in performance is the autocannons. Which is overall okay, means the blastership can be taken quite a bit in the armour on the approach and still stands the fair chance of winning if it gets the other guy within fire range by then... that's with guns alone. Drones added on top of it make it so one sided it's not even funny. o.O; (if there's one thing that's pretty odd in overall picture, it's the fitting requirements of autocannons across the board... pretty light in comparison to blasters, use way less cap if at all, can mix damage types and the performance is pretty close to what the blasters can do. I suppose one could argue blasters should get tiny grid reduction while autocannons might use very tiny increase of the grid they need. I said 'tiny', mind you -.o |
j0sephine Caldari Reikoku Band of Brothers |
Posted - 2005.08.25 14:02:00 -
[18] Edited by: j0sephine on 25/08/2005 14:03:09 Out of curiosity... would anyone involved in the thread mind spending some time on the test server, checking how: * Thorax with 800mm plate performs against other cruisers also limited to 800mm plate tops..? * Thorax with 4 heavy drones tops performs against other cruisers using any equipment available nowadays * Thorax with anything between say 4-6 drones and 800mm plate performs against other cruisers limited to 800mm armour * Thorax limited to medium drones and different plate variants performs against other cruisers limited in similar manner would kind of make it easier to see what kind of impact the suggested changes (nerf the plate, nerf the drone bay, nerf them all and fly just Ibises etc) ... would have... slightly more practical than just arguing about it on the forum o.O; |
j0sephine Caldari Reikoku Band of Brothers |
Posted - 2005.08.25 14:16:00 -
[19] Edited by: j0sephine on 25/08/2005 14:17:21 edit: no longer applies ^^;; |
j0sephine |
Posted - 2005.08.25 23:25:00 -
[20] "How many ruptures have you lost to a rax? Did you employ a tactic which kept distance and picked off the drones?" Why would the Thorax pilot give opponent chance of free pot shots at their drones in the first place, by deploying them before they have the target within suitable range and their speed under control..? (i guess unless they're afraid of EW, but then it's not exactly something to be afraid from Rupture, is it... |
j0sephine Caldari Reikoku Band of Brothers |
Posted - 2005.08.25 23:25:00 -
[21] "How many ruptures have you lost to a rax? Did you employ a tactic which kept distance and picked off the drones?" Why would the Thorax pilot give opponent chance of free pot shots at their drones in the first place, by deploying them before they have the target within suitable range and their speed under control..? (i guess unless they're afraid of EW, but then it's not exactly something to be afraid from Rupture, is it... |
 j0sephine |
Posted - 2005.08.26 14:19:00 -
[22] Edited by: j0sephine on 26/08/2005 14:20:29 "Id like to see gank maller and gank moa results (..)" Dunno what gank moa really be, to be honest... you can mount 4x 250mm rails on her with 4 damage mods, but that leaves launcher slots empty (not enough grid left) ... with all tech.2 gear she'd do ~196 raw dps then. If you drop a damage mod for RCU to install the launchers, the overall DoT might go up to ~210 dps... but that'll leave you with some 40 grid even with maxed out skills, to use for all the lows (didn't check the cpu, might get tight too) |
j0sephine Caldari Reikoku Band of Brothers |
Posted - 2005.08.26 14:19:00 -
[23] Edited by: j0sephine on 26/08/2005 14:20:29 "Id like to see gank maller and gank moa results (..)" Dunno what gank moa really be, to be honest... you can mount 4x 250mm rails on her with 4 damage mods, but that leaves launcher slots empty (not enough grid left) ... with all tech.2 gear she'd do ~196 raw dps then. If you drop a damage mod for RCU to install the launchers, the overall DoT might go up to ~210 dps... but that'll leave you with some 40 grid even with maxed out skills, to use for all the lows (didn't check the cpu, might get tight too) |
 j0sephine |
Posted - 2005.08.26 14:27:00 -
[24] Edited by: j0sephine on 26/08/2005 14:28:08 "Everyone i know who PvP's says kill the drones you kill the rax.. and some of those are rax pilots." Unless you're flying a plated maller, you have ~30-40 seconds to lock on and kill the drones (rough equivalent of 8 frigates) because past that time you're dead. Even if you manage to pull it off, by then you're so far out of hp even Thorax' small guns can finish you off. Before the plate got popular, if you were in something smaller than battleship the only hope of survival was to focus all the fire on the Thorax herself and hope she pops before you do, rendering the drones dead. With the 1600mm plate in, this is simply no longer possible hence the Thorax currently enjoying her /iddqd mode against most of ships that's supposed to be her counterparts... -.o |
j0sephine Caldari Reikoku Band of Brothers |
Posted - 2005.08.26 14:27:00 -
[25] Edited by: j0sephine on 26/08/2005 14:28:08 "Everyone i know who PvP's says kill the drones you kill the rax.. and some of those are rax pilots." Unless you're flying a plated maller, you have ~30-40 seconds to lock on and kill the drones (rough equivalent of 8 frigates) because past that time you're dead. Even if you manage to pull it off, by then you're so far out of hp even Thorax' small guns can finish you off. Before the plate got popular, if you were in something smaller than battleship the only hope of survival was to focus all the fire on the Thorax herself and hope she pops before you do, rendering the drones dead. With the 1600mm plate in, this is simply no longer possible hence the Thorax currently enjoying her /iddqd mode against most of ships that's supposed to be her counterparts... -.o |
j0sephine |
Posted - 2005.08.26 14:37:00 -
[26] "I was thinking about 4 * 200mm t2, 4 damage mods and worthless launchers at the cost of training advanced weapon upgrade to high level. No idea if it would be better (dps wise) than what you get though." Ahh, i see... at first glance it looks like it'd be possible to get ~230 raw dps out of similar setup (4x 200mm tech.2 rail, 2x tech.2 heavy launchers) ... but that's with antimatter ammo, and i didn't actually check if it's possible to cram all this in Moa's powergrid ^^ |
j0sephine Caldari Reikoku Band of Brothers |
Posted - 2005.08.26 14:37:00 -
[27] "I was thinking about 4 * 200mm t2, 4 damage mods and worthless launchers at the cost of training advanced weapon upgrade to high level. No idea if it would be better (dps wise) than what you get though." Ahh, i see... at first glance it looks like it'd be possible to get ~230 raw dps out of similar setup (4x 200mm tech.2 rail, 2x tech.2 heavy launchers) ... but that's with antimatter ammo, and i didn't actually check if it's possible to cram all this in Moa's powergrid ^^ |
j0sephine |
Posted - 2005.08.26 17:56:00 -
[28] Edited by: j0sephine on 26/08/2005 17:59:41 Well, just to thrown in some practical results of another silly experiment... Moa, 1600mm plate, 2 armour hardeners, damage mod; 4x 150mm rails, 1 missile launcher, 1 medium smartbomb; afterburner, warp disruptor, 2x web (might replace second web with small cap injector but the result is hardly spectacular. might drop the damage mod for grid/cap module to fit/run mwd and rest of the gear) results: can't keep distance from Thorax. webs will stop it at ~10 km but that's short enough for her to engage nos and kill Moa's cap before the smartbomb + guns + moa's drones deal enough damage to either drones or Thorax herself. Over 5k of hardened armour lasts ~60-90 seconds once the drones and Thorax start having fun with it. (can't use MWD to stay out of Thorax' range either, because Moa is #1 slower #2 heavier #3 doesn't get the MWD cap reduction bonus so runs out of cap first and becomes easy prey. if you fit the nos on the Moa to counter cap drain, you're left with couple of tiny guns vs 8 heavy drones with some 3.5k of hp total, and even more than that on Thorax herself. kind of throws the wrench in all the "it's balanced just fit a smartbomb" "it's balanced just stay out of range" "it's balanced just go for drones first" suggested ways of defense... as far as you're flying Caldari "best" cruiser, anyway -.o edit: and on sidenote, the fact Moa makes far more effective armour tank than shield tank is effin' sad and bordering on ridiculous ¼¼;; |
j0sephine Caldari Reikoku Band of Brothers |
Posted - 2005.08.26 17:56:00 -
[29] Edited by: j0sephine on 26/08/2005 17:59:41 Well, just to thrown in some practical results of another silly experiment... Moa, 1600mm plate, 2 armour hardeners, damage mod; 4x 150mm rails, 1 missile launcher, 1 medium smartbomb; afterburner, warp disruptor, 2x web (might replace second web with small cap injector but the result is hardly spectacular. might drop the damage mod for grid/cap module to fit/run mwd and rest of the gear) results: can't keep distance from Thorax. webs will stop it at ~10 km but that's short enough for her to engage nos and kill Moa's cap before the smartbomb + guns + moa's drones deal enough damage to either drones or Thorax herself. Over 5k of hardened armour lasts ~60-90 seconds once the drones and Thorax start having fun with it. (can't use MWD to stay out of Thorax' range either, because Moa is #1 slower #2 heavier #3 doesn't get the MWD cap reduction bonus so runs out of cap first and becomes easy prey. if you fit the nos on the Moa to counter cap drain, you're left with couple of tiny guns vs 8 heavy drones with some 3.5k of hp total, and even more than that on Thorax herself. kind of throws the wrench in all the "it's balanced just fit a smartbomb" "it's balanced just stay out of range" "it's balanced just go for drones first" suggested ways of defense... as far as you're flying Caldari "best" cruiser, anyway -.o edit: and on sidenote, the fact Moa makes far more effective armour tank than shield tank is effin' sad and bordering on ridiculous ¼¼;; |
 j0sephine |
Posted - 2005.08.26 22:53:00 -
[30] "Heavy drones have a hard time against frigates." No they don't ;.; heavy drones have better tracking and signature resolution than small pulse lasers... if the drone pilot is smart and deploys them once the frigate is within her firing/scrambling range (so they can start firing immediately) a plated frigate/interceptor has barely enough time to run if she wants to live. Non-plated frigate or 'ceptor, you're pretty much getting just small lag spike when drones get deployed, and then find yourself in the pod. |
j0sephine Caldari Reikoku Band of Brothers |
Posted - 2005.08.26 22:53:00 -
[31] "Heavy drones have a hard time against frigates." No they don't ;.; heavy drones have better tracking and signature resolution than small pulse lasers... if the drone pilot is smart and deploys them once the frigate is within her firing/scrambling range (so they can start firing immediately) a plated frigate/interceptor has barely enough time to run if she wants to live. Non-plated frigate or 'ceptor, you're pretty much getting just small lag spike when drones get deployed, and then find yourself in the pod. |
 j0sephine |
Posted - 2005.08.26 23:01:00 -
[32] "Big drones do have a hard time against frigates. A frigate can outrun them oh so easily. You need to web a inty to hit it with heavy drones, the guns arent the issue, it's the range." That's why i said "if the drone pilot is smart and deploys them once the frigate is within her firing/scrambling range (so they can start firing immediately)" -.o Yeah, they won't work on interceptor that goes 4 km/sec at 15 km radius. They'll toast anything that gets closer than 9-10 km in a blink of the eye though if you launch them at right time, and plenty frigates do need to get there if they want their job done... >>; |
j0sephine Caldari Reikoku Band of Brothers |
Posted - 2005.08.26 23:01:00 -
[33] "Big drones do have a hard time against frigates. A frigate can outrun them oh so easily. You need to web a inty to hit it with heavy drones, the guns arent the issue, it's the range." That's why i said "if the drone pilot is smart and deploys them once the frigate is within her firing/scrambling range (so they can start firing immediately)" -.o Yeah, they won't work on interceptor that goes 4 km/sec at 15 km radius. They'll toast anything that gets closer than 9-10 km in a blink of the eye though if you launch them at right time, and plenty frigates do need to get there if they want their job done... >>; |
j0sephine |
Posted - 2005.08.29 18:13:00 -
[34] "I have one word for you regarding the Thorax. SMARTBOMB." Did you actually test your advice? I did. A medium smartbomb takes ~45-60 seconds to deal enough damage to kill drones, and uses ~500 cap for it. If the Thorax is killing you with both drones and guns, you don't have 60 seconds to live even with the plate. If he's killing you with drones and draining with nos, you don't have enough cap to keep the bomb running long enough to kill them drones. Please, mount a smartbomb on a cruiser that's non-Thorax, then go out and kill say, 10 decent Thorax pilots to prove me wrong. If it's as easy as you make it to be, it shouldn't take you much time.... |
j0sephine Caldari Reikoku Band of Brothers |
Posted - 2005.08.29 18:13:00 -
[35] "I have one word for you regarding the Thorax. SMARTBOMB." Did you actually test your advice? I did. A medium smartbomb takes ~45-60 seconds to deal enough damage to kill drones, and uses ~500 cap for it. If the Thorax is killing you with both drones and guns, you don't have 60 seconds to live even with the plate. If he's killing you with drones and draining with nos, you don't have enough cap to keep the bomb running long enough to kill them drones. Please, mount a smartbomb on a cruiser that's non-Thorax, then go out and kill say, 10 decent Thorax pilots to prove me wrong. If it's as easy as you make it to be, it shouldn't take you much time.... |
j0sephine |
Posted - 2005.08.30 13:37:00 -
[36] Edited by: j0sephine on 30/08/2005 13:38:16 "That is reverse logic, and it does no good. Just because the whole cruiser class is a pile of cr4p, the few ones that are still useful to some extent should be nerfed? Shouldn't we instead think about ways to make the other cruisers more useful as well?" I think it should perhaps be first considered if Thorax is currently at the level all cruisers should be brought up to? It's without doubt cool for a Thorax pilot that they have little to fear from smaller ships, can give the HAC more than a handful of trouble and have fair chance 1v1 to waste battleships. But now picture all cruisers become like that. Frigates no longer pose any practical harm to them. Anything bigger than cruiser turns somewhat pointless, because why spend millions on heavier ships when couple of cruisers will perform just as well... not much fun, unless you're the cruiser pilot -.o I'd like to see cruisers get a boost, but perhaps their 'desired' power level is a tad bit below were Thorax currently is at, and so she needs a small power reduction regardless of how weak other ships in her class might be. It's not the case of "nerf this or boost that" but rather "nerf this and boost that" imo... o.O; |
j0sephine Caldari Reikoku Band of Brothers |
Posted - 2005.08.30 13:37:00 -
[37] Edited by: j0sephine on 30/08/2005 13:38:16 "That is reverse logic, and it does no good. Just because the whole cruiser class is a pile of cr4p, the few ones that are still useful to some extent should be nerfed? Shouldn't we instead think about ways to make the other cruisers more useful as well?" I think it should perhaps be first considered if Thorax is currently at the level all cruisers should be brought up to? It's without doubt cool for a Thorax pilot that they have little to fear from smaller ships, can give the HAC more than a handful of trouble and have fair chance 1v1 to waste battleships. But now picture all cruisers become like that. Frigates no longer pose any practical harm to them. Anything bigger than cruiser turns somewhat pointless, because why spend millions on heavier ships when couple of cruisers will perform just as well... not much fun, unless you're the cruiser pilot -.o I'd like to see cruisers get a boost, but perhaps their 'desired' power level is a tad bit below were Thorax currently is at, and so she needs a small power reduction regardless of how weak other ships in her class might be. It's not the case of "nerf this or boost that" but rather "nerf this and boost that" imo... o.O; |
j0sephine Caldari Reikoku Band of Brothers |
Posted - 2005.08.30 13:37:00 -
[38] Edited by: j0sephine on 30/08/2005 13:38:16 "That is reverse logic, and it does no good. Just because the whole cruiser class is a pile of cr4p, the few ones that are still useful to some extent should be nerfed? Shouldn't we instead think about ways to make the other cruisers more useful as well?" I think it should perhaps be first considered if Thorax is currently at the level all cruisers should be brought up to? It's without doubt cool for a Thorax pilot that they have little to fear from smaller ships, can give the HAC more than a handful of trouble and have fair chance 1v1 to waste battleships. But now picture all cruisers become like that. Frigates no longer pose any practical harm to them. Anything bigger than cruiser turns somewhat pointless, because why spend millions on heavier ships when couple of cruisers will perform just as well... not much fun, unless you're the cruiser pilot -.o I'd like to see cruisers get a boost, but perhaps their 'desired' power level is a tad bit below were Thorax currently is at, and so she needs a small power reduction regardless of how weak other ships in her class might be. It's not the case of "nerf this or boost that" but rather "nerf this and boost that" imo... o.O; |
 j0sephine |
Posted - 2005.08.31 03:03:00 -
[39] "Having just posted on the 'nerf the gankageddon' thread, I am well and truly on my soapbox. (..) Grow up. Get creative. Smartbombs kill drones. Friggie guns kill drones." It helps if you read the thread before responding to it. And it helps to test the armchair commander tactics before you present them as solutions... (all advice you offered here was already offered and discussed over the course of this thread, couple of times by now. They don't really work on cruiser combat level. |
j0sephine Caldari Reikoku Band of Brothers |
Posted - 2005.08.31 03:03:00 -
[40] "Having just posted on the 'nerf the gankageddon' thread, I am well and truly on my soapbox. (..) Grow up. Get creative. Smartbombs kill drones. Friggie guns kill drones." It helps if you read the thread before responding to it. And it helps to test the armchair commander tactics before you present them as solutions... (all advice you offered here was already offered and discussed over the course of this thread, couple of times by now. They don't really work on cruiser combat level. |
j0sephine Caldari Reikoku Band of Brothers |
Posted - 2005.08.31 03:03:00 -
[41] "Having just posted on the 'nerf the gankageddon' thread, I am well and truly on my soapbox. (..) Grow up. Get creative. Smartbombs kill drones. Friggie guns kill drones." It helps if you read the thread before responding to it. And it helps to test the armchair commander tactics before you present them as solutions... (all advice you offered here was already offered and discussed over the course of this thread, couple of times by now. They don't really work on cruiser combat level. |
j0sephine |
Posted - 2005.09.04 01:51:00 -
[42] "ppl dont understand that 8 heavy drones are very easey to destroy, especially with medium drones..." ffs... like all people in this thread who came up with this bright idea how easy it is to kill that amount of heavy drones, did you actually try it? --;; 8 heavy drones = ~3.5 k of hp time before your own ship goes poof under Thorax' and drones firepower = 50-60 seconds top, unless you're in a Maller tanked up to gills. But hey, Maller has no drone bay so that's kinda moot point. amount of medium drones needed to generate enough damage to kill 8 heavy drones in less than 60 secods, presuming perfect performance with target switching, no delay when switching to another drone etc = 10+ amount of cruisers able to carry 10 medium drones that ain't Thorax: 2 ... Arbitrator and Vexor. ... if this thread was a horse, it'd be glue by now >.<;;; |
j0sephine Caldari Reikoku Band of Brothers |
Posted - 2005.09.04 01:51:00 -
[43] "ppl dont understand that 8 heavy drones are very easey to destroy, especially with medium drones..." ffs... like all people in this thread who came up with this bright idea how easy it is to kill that amount of heavy drones, did you actually try it? --;; 8 heavy drones = ~3.5 k of hp time before your own ship goes poof under Thorax' and drones firepower = 50-60 seconds top, unless you're in a Maller tanked up to gills. But hey, Maller has no drone bay so that's kinda moot point. amount of medium drones needed to generate enough damage to kill 8 heavy drones in less than 60 secods, presuming perfect performance with target switching, no delay when switching to another drone etc = 10+ amount of cruisers able to carry 10 medium drones that ain't Thorax: 2 ... Arbitrator and Vexor. ... if this thread was a horse, it'd be glue by now >.<;;; |
j0sephine Caldari Reikoku Band of Brothers |
Posted - 2005.09.04 01:51:00 -
[44] "ppl dont understand that 8 heavy drones are very easey to destroy, especially with medium drones..." ffs... like all people in this thread who came up with this bright idea how easy it is to kill that amount of heavy drones, did you actually try it? --;; 8 heavy drones = ~3.5 k of hp time before your own ship goes poof under Thorax' and drones firepower = 50-60 seconds top, unless you're in a Maller tanked up to gills. But hey, Maller has no drone bay so that's kinda moot point. amount of medium drones needed to generate enough damage to kill 8 heavy drones in less than 60 secods, presuming perfect performance with target switching, no delay when switching to another drone etc = 10+ amount of cruisers able to carry 10 medium drones that ain't Thorax: 2 ... Arbitrator and Vexor. ... if this thread was a horse, it'd be glue by now >.<;;; |
j0sephine |
Posted - 2005.09.04 01:55:00 -
[45] "Yes I have and I don't like how easy it is" So how exactly did it went and what ship was it done with..? |
j0sephine Caldari Reikoku Band of Brothers |
Posted - 2005.09.04 01:55:00 -
[46] "Yes I have and I don't like how easy it is" So how exactly did it went and what ship was it done with..? |
j0sephine Caldari Reikoku Band of Brothers |
Posted - 2005.09.04 01:55:00 -
[47] "Yes I have and I don't like how easy it is" So how exactly did it went and what ship was it done with..? |
 j0sephine |
Posted - 2005.09.04 14:21:00 -
[48] Edited by: j0sephine on 04/09/2005 14:28:16 "I, however, would have liked to see you do calculations for all distances up to say 45km as this is the maximum distance drones can fly, unless you use an Ishtar. Otherwise all you've done is not show the complete picture over which battles may ensue. I think maybe we'll see that the DPS of a Thorax at 45km will be pitiful, which would explain why it's so high at closer distances. It simply NEEDS to put out damage that is far and above any other ship to redress the inbalance of taking so much itself for so long." Leaving aside it's rather pointless to calculate damage past 20 km -.^ ... i think you're overall in for a surprise. Don't forget the turrets have to switch to lighter ammo to reach these kinds of ranges, meaning their damage drops considerably as well. i'll use original values Nyxus provided, for quick estimation: Maller - 54 DPS Moa - 49 DPS Thorax - 47 DPS Omen - 43 DPS Rupture - 41 DPS Stabber - 41 DPS Vexxor - 37 DPS for 20 km range, halving these numbers provides reasonable ballpark value. For 45 km range... you might try halving them again, for estimate. So at 20 km gun damage might be something like: Maller - 27 DPS Moa - 24.5 DPS Thorax - 23.5 DPS Omen - 21.5 DPS Rupture - 20.5 DPS Stabber - 20.5 DPS Vexxor - 18.5 DPS and at 40+ km... screw the math, overall no ship will be doing more than 15 dps with their guns. The ships with missile launchers gain slight edge here, given the launchers don't need to switch ammo to gain range. What does it mean? It means a turret ship staying at 40 km range after 1 minute will deal about enough damage to get down Thorax shield, and now faces the prospect to chew through ~5x more armour and whatever the Thorax manages to regen/repair during the following 5+ minutes. This is more than enough time for the drones to leisurely walk over there, and then inflict their ~170 dps on the ship that's meanwhile trying to kill the drone carrier at amazing rate of 15 dps... it doesn't really look too good, does it -.o (if someone says to kill the drones instead... well, with their amount of hp it'd take ~2-3 mins to kill them with this sort of damage output, even switching the ammo and whatnot. The whole fight at 40km thing sounds silly overall tbh, and i can't really imagine it happening in the first place. The other ship trying to stay at ~20 km, maybe... this one would probably have similar outcome though, since even though gun damage output doubles in comparison to 40 km fight, the time needed for drones to get to their target halves... o.O; |
j0sephine Caldari Reikoku Band of Brothers |
Posted - 2005.09.04 14:21:00 -
[49] Edited by: j0sephine on 04/09/2005 14:34:21 "I, however, would have liked to see you do calculations for all distances up to say 45km as this is the maximum distance drones can fly, unless you use an Ishtar. Otherwise all you've done is not show the complete picture over which battles may ensue. I think maybe we'll see that the DPS of a Thorax at 45km will be pitiful, which would explain why it's so high at closer distances. It simply NEEDS to put out damage that is far and above any other ship to redress the inbalance of taking so much itself for so long." Leaving aside it's rather pointless to calculate damage past 20 km -.^ ... i think you're overall in for a surprise. Don't forget the turrets have to switch to lighter ammo to reach these kinds of ranges, meaning their damage drops considerably as well. i'll use original values Nyxus provided, for quick estimation: Maller - 54 DPS Moa - 49 DPS Thorax - 47 DPS Omen - 43 DPS Rupture - 41 DPS Stabber - 41 DPS Vexxor - 37 DPS for 20 km range, reducing these numbers to ~2/3rd provides reasonable ballpark value. For 45 km range... you might try reducing them like that again, for estimate. So at 20 km gun damage might be somewhere between 35-25 dps, and at 40+ km... screw the math, overall no ship will be doing more than 20-15 dps with their guns. The ships with missile launchers gain slight edge here, given the launchers don't need to switch ammo to gain range. What does it mean? It means a turret ship staying at 40 km range after 1 minute will deal about enough damage to get down Thorax shield, and now faces the prospect to chew through ~5x more armour and whatever the Thorax manages to regen/repair during the following 5+ minutes. This is more than enough time for the drones to leisurely walk over there, and then inflict their ~170 dps on the ship that's meanwhile trying to kill the drone carrier at amazing rate of 15 dps... it doesn't really look too good, does it -.o (if someone says to kill the drones instead... well, with their amount of hp it'd take ~2-3 mins to kill them with this sort of damage output, even switching the ammo and whatnot. The whole fight at 40km thing sounds silly overall tbh, and i can't really imagine it happening in the first place. The other ship trying to stay at ~20 km, maybe... this one would probably have similar outcome though, since even though gun damage output doubles in comparison to 40 km fight, the time needed for drones to get to their target halves... o.O; |
j0sephine Caldari Reikoku Band of Brothers |
Posted - 2005.09.04 14:21:00 -
[50] Edited by: j0sephine on 04/09/2005 14:34:21 "I, however, would have liked to see you do calculations for all distances up to say 45km as this is the maximum distance drones can fly, unless you use an Ishtar. Otherwise all you've done is not show the complete picture over which battles may ensue. I think maybe we'll see that the DPS of a Thorax at 45km will be pitiful, which would explain why it's so high at closer distances. It simply NEEDS to put out damage that is far and above any other ship to redress the inbalance of taking so much itself for so long." Leaving aside it's rather pointless to calculate damage past 20 km -.^ ... i think you're overall in for a surprise. Don't forget the turrets have to switch to lighter ammo to reach these kinds of ranges, meaning their damage drops considerably as well. i'll use original values Nyxus provided, for quick estimation: Maller - 54 DPS Moa - 49 DPS Thorax - 47 DPS Omen - 43 DPS Rupture - 41 DPS Stabber - 41 DPS Vexxor - 37 DPS for 20 km range, reducing these numbers to ~2/3rd provides reasonable ballpark value. For 45 km range... you might try reducing them like that again, for estimate. So at 20 km gun damage might be somewhere between 35-25 dps, and at 40+ km... screw the math, overall no ship will be doing more than 20-15 dps with their guns. The ships with missile launchers gain slight edge here, given the launchers don't need to switch ammo to gain range. What does it mean? It means a turret ship staying at 40 km range after 1 minute will deal about enough damage to get down Thorax shield, and now faces the prospect to chew through ~5x more armour and whatever the Thorax manages to regen/repair during the following 5+ minutes. This is more than enough time for the drones to leisurely walk over there, and then inflict their ~170 dps on the ship that's meanwhile trying to kill the drone carrier at amazing rate of 15 dps... it doesn't really look too good, does it -.o (if someone says to kill the drones instead... well, with their amount of hp it'd take ~2-3 mins to kill them with this sort of damage output, even switching the ammo and whatnot. The whole fight at 40km thing sounds silly overall tbh, and i can't really imagine it happening in the first place. The other ship trying to stay at ~20 km, maybe... this one would probably have similar outcome though, since even though gun damage output doubles in comparison to 40 km fight, the time needed for drones to get to their target halves... o.O; |
j0sephine |
Posted - 2005.09.05 02:21:00 -
[51] "And yes, I still maintain that the thorax is the drone boat, not the vexor. I've no idea where that idea came into effect. The thorax ship description says it is. Furthermore, the thorax has always had more drone space. But the vexor is the primary drone carrier because you guys say so? I'm not convinced." Probably because Vexor hull is given to Ishtar which is the tech.2 drone carrier, while Deimos is the tech.2 gunboat... so people want the tech.1 versions to match that ^^;; (oh and ftr i do consider Thorax without plate sufficiently fragile -.o it's just like discussed earlier, possibly no one really wants to see plates go from cruisers in general, because it'd mean other cruisers turn paper-thin as well, and again become unable to face anything bigger than them. So it's more convenient to demand drone murder... |
j0sephine Caldari Reikoku Band of Brothers |
Posted - 2005.09.05 02:21:00 -
[52] "And yes, I still maintain that the thorax is the drone boat, not the vexor. I've no idea where that idea came into effect. The thorax ship description says it is. Furthermore, the thorax has always had more drone space. But the vexor is the primary drone carrier because you guys say so? I'm not convinced." Probably because Vexor hull is given to Ishtar which is the tech.2 drone carrier, while Deimos is the tech.2 gunboat... so people want the tech.1 versions to match that ^^;; (oh and ftr i do consider Thorax without plate sufficiently fragile -.o it's just like discussed earlier, possibly no one really wants to see plates go from cruisers in general, because it'd mean other cruisers turn paper-thin as well, and again become unable to face anything bigger than them. So it's more convenient to demand drone murder... |
j0sephine Caldari Reikoku Band of Brothers |
Posted - 2005.09.05 02:21:00 -
[53] "And yes, I still maintain that the thorax is the drone boat, not the vexor. I've no idea where that idea came into effect. The thorax ship description says it is. Furthermore, the thorax has always had more drone space. But the vexor is the primary drone carrier because you guys say so? I'm not convinced." Probably because Vexor hull is given to Ishtar which is the tech.2 drone carrier, while Deimos is the tech.2 gunboat... so people want the tech.1 versions to match that ^^;; (oh and ftr i do consider Thorax without plate sufficiently fragile -.o it's just like discussed earlier, possibly no one really wants to see plates go from cruisers in general, because it'd mean other cruisers turn paper-thin as well, and again become unable to face anything bigger than them. So it's more convenient to demand drone murder... |
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