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Do Mercenaries really ever bring down a corporation/Alliance?

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NI Reba	Posted - 2005.08.25 23:03:00 - [1] I havn't been around for long but I see mercenary wars being more of a annoyance to big alliances and not really anything that brings them down or sometimes even really hurts them badly unless they were already weak. So without flaming me can non-mercenaries tell tales of when hired mercenaries have worked? Or when they don't...
Caybn E'vangel	Posted - 2005.08.25 23:07:00 - [2] I would say that depends entirely on the quality of the merc corp(s).
Lilan Kahn	Posted - 2005.08.25 23:11:00 - [3] iv fold a cuppel of mining corps by waring them alliance not realy dont think a allaince has gone KAWOP due to mercs yetÖ Originally by: Eris Discordia We break after X amount of threads, then we go wild and then we get our medication.
Julien Derida	Posted - 2005.08.25 23:15:00 - [4] Alliances never fall for a single reason. They usually fall to a combination of internal and external pressures, of which Mercs would only be a part. Off the top of my head, I believe we have had two alliances fall whilst we have been at war with them. With one of them, the pressure we were applying in empire played a significant part in their downfall. With the other, I'm inclined to think that their falling during our war was incidental. It really depends on the situation. ---------------------------------------- Chief Inspector of the Style Police - FRICK
ParMizaN	Posted - 2005.08.26 00:00:00 - [5] Not usually: but mercs can often be a big part in the downfall of alliances. Advertise in my sig! I am ParMizaN and i love Zarthanon
Zeraph Dregamon	Posted - 2005.08.26 00:08:00 - [6] Dunno about alliances, but plenty of corporations have been utterly destroyed by mercs. GH-SC
Darko1107	Posted - 2005.08.26 00:22:00 - [7] Think BDCI/FRICK pretty much made MF (Mercenary Forces) collapse. Not to sure though
Lorth	Posted - 2005.08.26 00:29:00 - [8] Well to be honest, we don't have a big enough merc force to really be effective against an allience. While MC is rather big, they are simply a little to small to actually destroy an allience. No doubt they are effective at what they do, but just don't have the numbers to field against many of the larger alliences. Corps on the other hand have fallen to merc actions. Though it is rare in most cases, one merc can utterly destroy anouther corp. Ushally, its really an indication of a poor, or newbie corp though. Either the members are to new to actaully know how to defend them selves, or the corp is a mostly mining corp, who has utterly no clue. Mercs are ushally not your best bet to destroy a corp. They are great however, at doing some damage, or as a distraction. As an example, allience A could hire mercs to attack allience B, while they run around contesting allience B's space. Or mercs are handy as extra defence. This is pretty much what CLS did when VOTF declared war on them, and it worked effectivly.
Mitchman	Posted - 2005.08.26 01:02:00 - [9] Yes, it's quite possible to bring down an alliance or corporation. We've seen it several times. But when the contract expires, the alliance or corporation will usually recover some or all its strenght within a few weeks. The biggest issue with alliances is that it will be clear for them who will fight they merc corp or not, so many corps leave because they are not prepated for being hunting endlessly. An alliance might recover over time from this, or it might not. From experience, I would say that allances generally recover and becomes stronger than they were after some time.
Ukiah	Posted - 2005.08.26 03:12:00 - [10] Most alliances die because of internal pressure. Egos tend to start running rampant. Add in a solid merc corp putting EXTERNAL pressures on an already troubled alliance, and the finger pointing and blame game escalates. People start making the logic jump to "screw this, being in this alliance isn't worth all THIS crap". So, yes and no. While they're not a 'merc' corp, BoB certainly killed some of the northern alliances off. Some of the southern alliances have fallen on their own due to internal strife.
Saladin	Posted - 2005.08.26 04:08:00 - [11] I just finished reading a book by that Machiavelli chap. According to him Mercs never become a deciding factor in a war between nations, and in EvE I would say that is true to a large degree. It seems to me that in EvE their use is limited to acting on the personal grudges of their well-paying clients. In my opinion we are yet to see a major alliance rise on the shoulders of mercs or fall under their might. If anyone is capable of that, it would be GHSC as opposed to the traditional merc corps. ----
Blacklight	Posted - 2005.08.26 04:13:00 - [12] Bringing alliances down is all about pressure and applying it from all angles. The use of mercenary corporations to add to that pressure is fairly normal and has I know for a fact, contributed to the downfall of more than one alliance. Eve Blacklight Style
Lorth	Posted - 2005.08.26 04:23:00 - [13] Originally by: Julien Derida Edited by: Julien Derida on 25/08/2005 23:18:44 Alliances never fall for a single reason. They usually fall to a combination of internal and external pressures, of which Mercs would only be a part. Off the top of my head, I believe we have had two alliances fall whilst we have been at war with them. With one of them, the pressure we were applying in empire played a significant part in their downfall. With the other, I'm inclined to think that their falling during our war was incidental. It really depends on the situation. Bear in mind that most mercs would steer well clear of a client that expects them to completely destroy an alliance, as that client is clearly fairly divorced from reality. Most contracts have far more modest aims. Wondering, if one of the alliences you refer to is NSA? From my perspective, NSA fell some 4.5 seconds after BOB launched an attack, it just took us a week or two to figure it out.
Seleene	Posted - 2005.08.26 07:04:00 - [14] TIME. That is why you don't see many alliances fall to merc corps. We've seen it in the MC all too often. We'll be on contract against an alliance. After a few weeks, their internal forums and chat channels are on fire with people arguing about how to deal with us. Their agent runners are afraid to undock, their haulers are tired of being podded and watching local chat and the leaders just with the whole situation would go away. With every kill made, the pressure builds until... the contracts ends. Merc contracts rarely last longer than 3-4 weeks. It's not something I really understand TBH. If you want an alliance to bleed from its eyes, the pressure has to stay on for longer than that. Still, sometimes the experience causes lasting divisions in an alliance that, combined with other influences, lead to a complete breakdown and implosion. This was most certainly the case with Fade Union and probably NSA and XETIC as well. Fade Union accepted a corp into their ranks who were in a war with FRICK and the Sharks literally had a feeding frenzy from Jita <-> Torrinos over the next week and a half while BoB and others annihilated them in 0.0. NSA and XETIC both were plagued by numerous issues both internal and external that caused the more progressive corps to move on. In terms of pure combat... Lorth's point about numbers is valid, but only if the alliance being targeted uses that to their advantage. All too often, they forget they have such an advantage and continue to die in droves because they can't seem to grasp that simple concept. I'm not talking about blobs either. I'm talking about fighting smart and keeping the mercs occupied so that they don't have time to go after the "softer" targets that fuel their economy. The MC can field a fleet of 40-50 battleships when needed. This is more than enough to take on 95% of the resistance that one will encounter in EVE and we have the experience and fleet commanders to use them to maximum effect. We rarely do this though because it's simply not necessary. T2 ships and multiple wolf packs of 6-12 pilots in both Empire and 0.0 tend to do more damage in one day than a single BS slugfest, especially against enemies that would rather the war not be happening in the first place. We like a good fleet fight as much as the next group of PvPers, however when our goal is to damage and not take or hold territory the reasons for us to field such a force are limited. EVE is changing though and we are changing with it. Some alliances are finally shifting more to 0.0 and we will always go where we can inflict the most damage. For example, soon you will see the MC offering Dreadnaughts as extra punch to an invading force or taking out Empire-based POS operations for our clients. This ability will go a long way toward making sure a mercenary war declaration cannot be ignored or written off as an nuisance. TBH, IÆm surprised I havenÆt seen a thread like this before. ItÆs a very interesting topic. - We're outnumbered! That simplifies the problem!
Joshua Calvert	Posted - 2005.08.26 07:19:00 - [15] I've not experienced any truly threatening pressure from mercs - mercs are now ten-a-penny and most people have experienced them and their tactics in one way or another. Mercs are generally only a threat to Empire dwellers. Most alliances used to have a lot of their membership in Empire but this has changed in recent months. This means mercs need to have the ability/balls to venture into alliance 0.0 to do their damage; not many mercs can operate that far into 0.0 unless they use the same old tactic of frig-fleets to rush in and out speedily. Mercs do add to the downfall of alliances but the "How much" is debatable and difficult to substantiate. LEEEEERRRRRRRRRRROOOOOOOOOYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY!
Joshua Calvert	Posted - 2005.08.26 07:25:00 - [16] Edited by: Joshua Calvert on 26/08/2005 07:26:12 wtf? LEEEEERRRRRRRRRRROOOOOOOOOYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY!
Righteous Fury	Posted - 2005.08.26 07:36:00 - [17] Most of the posts in this thread have been spot on about mercenaries affecting alliances, however they tend to miss the 'corp destruction' aspect. I have been in numerous situations where our contract wars or even just wars for fun have led to the downfall and eventual disbanding of a corporation. Generally it happens because people get tired of fighting and leave the corp, or realize that perhaps the leadership wasn't as competent as they had once believed. Either way, the destruction of individual corporations is much more common than the destructive effect mercenaries have on alliances.
The Praetor	Posted - 2005.08.26 07:53:00 - [18] I would agree with Selene, time is the biggest problem for mercenaries, our recent war with Mercenary Coalition is a good example: At first, people in the alliance were motivated for war and fought here and there and often quite fiercely. But MC is good at guerilla warfare, which meant they engaged while strong and stayed away when we were strong. Eventually, for various reasons, people grew tired of it... Then it just becomes a waiting game. Eventually many from our alliance simply entered an empire corp (usually temporarily, my alts did this so I could ship weapons and equipment to Agil unmolested) or went into 0.0 with VOTF (which is what I personally did because I didn't want to leave the Alliance) and just waited for the war to be over playing with SE and The Five. I also did a fair bit of Crokite mining during the war. That's not to diss on MC, but I never personally ran into them outside of empire and it was business as usual in 0.0. Eventually, even mercenaries grow bored and clients grow bored of spending money for very little in return. Keep in mind that, if I'm not mistaken, to sic MC on an alliance costs in the area of 500 Million - 1 Billion isk per week. Thats a steep bill to pay especially once the alliance commerce goes underground and the PVPers consolidate. An important thing to keep in mind, is that the Mercenaries themselves won't kill the alliance, really any PvP alone won't kill an alliance. Now, if the alliance becomes unable to do business, THAT is how an alliance dies. The economic disruption is what can cause an Alliance or Corporation to die. And the disruption must be continuous. The BEST protection I can (humbly) suggest against Mercenaries disrupting your economy is on the day the war starts, have your mining and empire alts enter Noob Corps or at least "pet corporations" who aren't part of the alliance, this is because Mercenaries are extremely good at disrupting alliance commerce. You should have contingency plans in place for when this occurs, that way your corporations and members are still making money (by proxy) and the war is irrelevant. The propaganda machine on the forums will go into full force because the alliance numbers WILL drop, but if you do it right, your enemies (the client) will be paying 500 million Isk or more per week for virtually nothing in return. And my final tip on Mercenaries, from my view, is most (that should not be read as "all") of them are primarily European timezone (MC and KIA Corp come to mind), so if you want to empire mine, agent run, or fly AFK across empire in a Mining Barge, do it during American Primetime or later. That's not a guarantee, but its a good guidance. So in my opinion, the alliance never really 'dies' from Mercenaries because once the war is over, the logistics arm of the Alliance returns and goes back into full swing and people return from 0.0. Just my .02 Isk.
Dracorimus	Posted - 2005.08.26 08:20:00 - [19] I would say mercs can seriously hurt an alliance if, as mentioned above pressure is applied for long enough and you really put the squeeze on the carebear side i.e the miners and industrialists in empire. - For more than a single foe to attempt to fight the Reikoku at once is an act of supreme folly.
DeadDuck	Posted - 2005.08.26 08:26:00 - [20] My 2 cents here ... since I saw the post of Ascendant Frontier stating the deployance of the first Outpost while being at war with Mercenary Coalition ... for me is all said ... MC trying to kill ASCN ships and ASCN worried about the completion of the Outpost ... btw ASCN congratulations
Shin Ra	Posted - 2005.08.26 08:45:00 - [21] Yes they do. BURN EDEN vs Merchant Marines Just so happened that they decided to all play another game right after then lost their fleet again and again. But then again, would you admit you got owned by us? ----------------------------------------- wts all new "burberry" warp core stab II's
Chowdown	Posted - 2005.08.26 09:06:00 - [22] Edited by: Chowdown on 26/08/2005 09:07:22 Originally by: Shin Ra Yes they do. BURN EDEN vs Merchant Marines Just so happened that they decided to all play another game right after then lost their fleet again and again. But then again, would you admit you got owned by us? LoL Killing alliances is all about occupation and continued pressure on thier 'Core' (FA corniness ftw). This is why some factions are effective at it BoB, [5] and why others are not, the old CA, SE, imp etc. Thier tactics are based around fleeting raids rather than sustained pressure. Now as Seleene has already pointed out it is all about time, I have no doubt that MC put some of the best pressure on possible with the quality they have. However by thier very nature merc costs will only spiral the longer the pressure is exerted. Furthermore the people who take out these contracts fit into two brackets imo. 1. Those who hire mercs to deal with a faction cause they need them kept busy, these are the people who know what they are doing and probably do not necessarily seek the utter destruction of the given faction. 2. Those who hire mercs cause they don't have a clue and can't do the job themselves. These guys probably want to see the faction killed off, but when they see it has not occurred after a week lose interest and pull the plug.
Julien Derida	Posted - 2005.08.26 09:09:00 - [23] Edited by: Julien Derida on 26/08/2005 09:09:51 Originally by: Lorth Originally by: Julien Derida Edited by: Julien Derida on 25/08/2005 23:18:44 Alliances never fall for a single reason. They usually fall to a combination of internal and external pressures, of which Mercs would only be a part. Off the top of my head, I believe we have had two alliances fall whilst we have been at war with them. With one of them, the pressure we were applying in empire played a significant part in their downfall. With the other, I'm inclined to think that their falling during our war was incidental. It really depends on the situation. Bear in mind that most mercs would steer well clear of a client that expects them to completely destroy an alliance, as that client is clearly fairly divorced from reality. Most contracts have far more modest aims. Wondering, if one of the alliences you refer to is NSA? From my perspective, NSA fell some 4.5 seconds after BOB launched an attack, it just took us a week or two to figure it out. Nope, not NSA ---------------------------------------- Chief Inspector of the Style Police - FRICK
Shin Ra	Posted - 2005.08.26 09:09:00 - [24] Originally by: Chowdown Edited by: Chowdown on 26/08/2005 09:06:41 Originally by: Shin Ra Yes they do. BURN EDEN vs Merchant Marines Just so happened that they decided to all play another game right after then lost their fleet again and again. But then again, would you admit you got owned by us? LoL Killing alliances is all about occupation and continued pressure on thier 'Core' (FA corniness ftw). This is why some factions are effective at it BoB, [5] and why others are not, the old CA, SE, imp etc. There tactics are based around fleeting raids rather than sustained pressure. Now as Seleene has already pointed out it is all about time, I have no doubt that MC put some of the best pressure on possible with the quality they have. However by there very nature merc costs will only spiral the longer the pressure is exerted. Furthermore the people who take out these contracts fit into two brackets imo. 1. Those who hire mercs to deal with a faction cause they need them kept busy, these are the people who know what they are doing and probably do not necessarily seek the utter destruction of the given faction. 2. Those who hire mercs cause they don't have a clue and can't do the job themselves. These guys probably want to see the faction killed off, but when they see it has not occurred after a week lose interest and pull the plug. Topic was do they ever bring down CORP/alliances? MM were a single corp. We brought them down. We didn't kill some of them and NAP the rest when they couldn't take it - what most ppl do. We just killed them outright. ----------------------------------------- wts all new "burberry" warp core stab II's
Chowdown	Posted - 2005.08.26 09:11:00 - [25] Originally by: Shin Ra Originally by: Chowdown Edited by: Chowdown on 26/08/2005 09:06:41 Originally by: Shin Ra Yes they do. BURN EDEN vs Merchant Marines Just so happened that they decided to all play another game right after then lost their fleet again and again. But then again, would you admit you got owned by us? LoL Killing alliances is all about occupation and continued pressure on thier 'Core' (FA corniness ftw). This is why some factions are effective at it BoB, [5] and why others are not, the old CA, SE, imp etc. There tactics are based around fleeting raids rather than sustained pressure. Now as Seleene has already pointed out it is all about time, I have no doubt that MC put some of the best pressure on possible with the quality they have. However by there very nature merc costs will only spiral the longer the pressure is exerted. Furthermore the people who take out these contracts fit into two brackets imo. 1. Those who hire mercs to deal with a faction cause they need them kept busy, these are the people who know what they are doing and probably do not necessarily seek the utter destruction of the given faction. 2. Those who hire mercs cause they don't have a clue and can't do the job themselves. These guys probably want to see the faction killed off, but when they see it has not occurred after a week lose interest and pull the plug. Topic was do they ever bring down CORP/alliances? MM were a single corp. We brought them down. We didn't kill some of them and NAP the rest when they couldn't take it - what most ppl do. We just killed them outright. No need to be so paranoid, I was chuckling cause it was so nice to see you back on the forums
Shin Ra	Posted - 2005.08.26 09:11:00 - [26] Edited by: Shin Ra on 26/08/2005 09:11:34 You think thats nice, wait till I'm back in curse. ----------------------------------------- wts all new "burberry" warp core stab II's
Chowdown	Posted - 2005.08.26 09:14:00 - [27] Originally by: Shin Ra Edited by: Shin Ra on 26/08/2005 09:11:34 You think thats nice, wait till I'm back in curse. /me fits 8 warp disruptors to scorp
Shin Ra	Posted - 2005.08.26 09:16:00 - [28] Originally by: Chowdown Originally by: Shin Ra Edited by: Shin Ra on 26/08/2005 09:11:34 You think thats nice, wait till I'm back in curse. /me fits 8 warp disruptors to scorp Someone did that once (well 6 + 2sb). He couldn't undertstand why he died so quickly tho. ----------------------------------------- wts all new "burberry" warp core stab II's
Chowdown	Posted - 2005.08.26 09:17:00 - [29] Right enough, I can only suggest npcs got him
DoctorGonzo	Posted - 2005.08.26 09:40:00 - [30] Originally by: Shin Ra Topic was do they ever bring down CORP/alliances? MM were a single corp. We brought them down. We didn't kill some of them and NAP the rest when they couldn't take it - what most ppl do. We just killed them outright. MM collapsed because Taladorn stopped playing to have a baby - they simply lost their leadership to RL! You may have helped to speed up the process once she had left though. Black Nova Corporation COO

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