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Javajunky Eternity INC. Goonswarm Federation 46	Posted - 2013.03.21 18:12:00 - [1] - Quote As a hardcore miner, IGÇÖve enjoyed and commented on a hundreds S&I posts, articles, and blogs related to the subject. I do not pretend to be good at much in the game of Eve, but IGÇÖve been an empire miner, a null sec miner and even a WH miner. As many Mining posts that get written, there are few that will tell you Mining is working as intended and here is why. For CCP, mining is a subscription business. It doesnGÇÖt matter that you think mining is boring. Mining as it is today is quite lucrative for CCP. It is one of the major reasons for legitimate multi-boxing and CCP loves multi-boxers. WeGÇÖre not talking about botters, weGÇÖre talking the subset of hardcore miners. The sweet spot, some may call them fanatical but in reality they are just ridiculously reliable in paying subscriptions or buying plex because they are the OCD types who are executing a business plan. ItGÇÖs what appeals to the industry types that PVP folks or market traders rarely grasp or comprehend. There are many hardcore miners in Eve, personally I know 10 guys between them account for more than 150 accounts. Aside from being another venue of OCD industry folks executing a business plan, Hardcore miners create content for the PVP folks, we are defenseless, and we are the hunted, basically targets of opportunity. We are the players with the balls to sit in the belt with a Rorqual because itGÇÖs more efficient hauling. We make mistakes, just last month I accidentally warped one of my hulks back into an Ice field and lost it. ISBoxer accidents happen and they are delicious kill mails for the hunters. Mining for the hardcore multi-boxer is very active, itGÇÖs a dance, a mini-game of efficiency and we have to stay on our toes to keep from getting tunnel vision. We even AFK it in a belt now and then because yes we know we should safe up for a bio but we calculate the risk and the amount of time it takes for us to get set back up, sometimes we say screw it and on the rare occasion have paid for it. We donGÇÖt complain about how quickly we die when we get tackled, thatGÇÖs the game of cat and mouse we accept. The odds that CCP makes a change to mining that would hurt this community, well that is slim and none and slim got laid off 99 weeks ago, heGÇÖs probably filing for permanent disability at this point. Again CCP loves multi-boxers, IGÇÖm surprised we donGÇÖt get VIP pass offers for Fan Fest. CCP isnGÇÖt going to change how asteroids are mined because there are a lot legitimate accounts at stake. Sorry PVP guys we know you spent 5 minutes mining and decided you need to fix something youGÇÖd only do for another 5 minutes before you got bored. Spreadsheet market traders, sure you can read some patch notes and write a VLookUp statement, but that doesnGÇÖt touch the human factors that make mining the profession it is today. On the bright side, Moon belt mining represents an opportunity for a different kind of mining but that seems to be a few expansions away. IGÇÖm not saying that mining is perfect, but there is balance. Sure I have a bone to pick with CCP Fozzie over the mining crystal capacity of a hulk but donGÇÖt expect any serious changes. Maybe null sec gets lucky with some grav site changes, getting access to some more low ends and maybe losing some of those big high end rocks in the grav sites. CCP definitely over compensated high ends with the drone region nerf. Maybe even swapping out these added high end rocks in the grav sites for low end rock volume? Just going to wait and see or maybe even stalk a Dev at FanfestGÇª.
Krixtal Icefluxor INLAND EMPIRE Galactic 3745	Posted - 2013.03.21 19:02:00 - [2] - Quote Posting in a stealth Goon Troll Thread to get more multi-Boxers (i.e. TARGETS) to subscribe. The only way to get rid of a temptation is to yield to it.-á-á-á-á-á - Oscar Wilde
Stegas Tyrano GLU CANU Open Space Consultancy 288	Posted - 2013.03.21 19:09:00 - [3] - Quote If they do anything to Mining it will be supplementary to what is already in place. Well I hope it is, I don't mind mining semi-afk while browsing the forums or watching youtube videos Herping your derp since 19Potato --á[Proposal] - Ingame Visual Adverts
Javajunky Eternity INC. Goonswarm Federation 46	Posted - 2013.03.21 20:38:00 - [4] - Quote Krixtal Icefluxor wrote: Posting in a stealth Goon Troll Thread to get more multi-Boxers (i.e. TARGETS) to subscribe. Yes because no one ever mines in Goonswarm lol. I've been an SI poster on the subject for years. Suck it. Suck it long time.
Dyphorus We Are Derp 0	Posted - 2013.03.21 21:25:00 - [5] - Quote Actually logged in just to agree with this... Mining really is in a pretty good place for both the purpose it fulfills, and the opportunities it provides players. OP explained it as well as I've ever seen it put.
Dave Stark 2074	Posted - 2013.03.21 21:38:00 - [6] - Quote tl;dr mining is fine, it's things related to mining that need fixing. Want miners to move from high sec to null sec? Then give them a reason to join player corps, and stop null sec grav sites being worth less isk/hour than high sec asteroid belts. Really isn't difficult.
Krixtal Icefluxor INLAND EMPIRE Galactic 3747	Posted - 2013.03.21 21:46:00 - [7] - Quote Javajunky wrote: Krixtal Icefluxor wrote: Posting in a stealth Goon Troll Thread to get more multi-Boxers (i.e. TARGETS) to subscribe. Yes because no one ever mines in Goonswarm lol. I've been an SI poster on the subject for years. Suck it. Suck it long time. As long as you assplode the Boxers, it's fine by me. The only way to get rid of a temptation is to yield to it.-á-á-á-á-á - Oscar Wilde
Sir Marksalot GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation 333	Posted - 2013.03.21 22:11:00 - [8] - Quote Krixtal Icefluxor wrote: Posting in a stealth Goon Troll Thread to get more multi-Boxers (i.e. TARGETS) to subscribe. Aren't you that guy who ragequit the game because we shot at your pos? Or was that someone else. Honest question. Javajunky wrote: Krixtal Icefluxor wrote: Posting in a stealth Goon Troll Thread to get more multi-Boxers (i.e. TARGETS) to subscribe. Yes because no one ever mines in Goonswarm lol. I've been an SI poster on the subject for years. Suck it. Suck it long time. ETNY is terrible, more news on this upcoming story at 9.
Kara Books Deal with IT. 463	Posted - 2013.03.22 17:16:00 - [9] - Quote Ah yes, I remember this one, LoLPatrol, Smartygeddons Invite me to fleets, no need ship replacement, can fund myself.
Castor Narcissus Outerspace Vanguard 3	Posted - 2013.03.23 03:02:00 - [10] - Quote It must be great for you. I would have fun in mining as well if I could use a bot to mine in your pseudo null space as well, safe and more profitable than high sec.
Dave Stark 2084	Posted - 2013.03.23 10:09:00 - [11] - Quote Castor Narcissus wrote: more profitable than high sec. and just like that, with 5 words, you've demonstrated how clueless and stupid you are. high sec mining is the most lucrative area of eve to mine in, do the maths and you'll see that. Want miners to move from high sec to null sec? Then give them a reason to join player corps, and stop null sec grav sites being worth less isk/hour than high sec asteroid belts. Really isn't difficult.
Javajunky Eternity INC. Goonswarm Federation 52	Posted - 2013.03.23 11:34:00 - [12] - Quote Dave Stark wrote: Castor Narcissus wrote: more profitable than high sec. and just like that, with 5 words, you've demonstrated how clueless and stupid you are. high sec mining is the most lucrative area of eve to mine in, do the maths and you'll see that. On a spreadsheet, yes you can wax philosophical single/dual box mining operation gets and how single scordite rock is making you all the mad ISK. But when you''ve got a single PC with 11 Miners a Rorq in the POS boosting and crunch ore and a Rorq / Orca hauling in, human factors make being in empire not worth it. Human factors are where spreadsheet nerds fail. - Empire Rocks typically die after a few cycles, as a multi-boxer, the more accounts, the more efficiency is lost because you're losing cycles in your dance to keep hauling, eyes on local and intel and chasing strips that are constantly dying. In null sec, I can leave one pilot on a crockite rock and he is maximum efficiency for an hour while two others are on Ark, 3 are on the ungodly amount of bistot, virtually working at 100% efficiency. - Remember, your mining crystal degrades the second you start a cycle not when it completes so partials hits from rocks dying are numbers that add up when you start getting more accounts in play. Adding to the fact that CCP Fozzie killed the Hulk in null sec due to mining crystal limitations doesn't help much either. We really didn't care about the tank, hit. - We don't log in and find that our belts didn't get a refreshed and we don't typically have to worry about someone else coming in and getting the favorite rock of the day and lose time hunting for that rock in other belts. Null sec its all about grav sites.\ If you asked me to take my fleet to empire and try and vacuum up the 1,000,000 m3 per hour that I vacuum up in null-sec, I'd tell you to take your keyboard and shove it where the sun doesn't shine, I simply don't hate myself that much. I'd have to venture a guess but I'd probably lose 40% of my efficiency moving my fleet around and chasing rocks because they popped so quickly. The hardcore multi-boxer just does things differently for different reasons and because things become more or less practical when you start managing a higher volume of accounts simultaneously.
Dave Stark 2084	Posted - 2013.03.23 11:54:00 - [13] - Quote that doesn't change the fact that mining in high sec is more profitable. Want miners to move from high sec to null sec? Then give them a reason to join player corps, and stop null sec grav sites being worth less isk/hour than high sec asteroid belts. Really isn't difficult.
Krixtal Icefluxor INLAND EMPIRE Galactic 3762	Posted - 2013.03.23 12:22:00 - [14] - Quote Dave Stark wrote: Castor Narcissus wrote: more profitable than high sec. and just like that, with 5 words, you've demonstrated how clueless and stupid you are. high sec mining is the most lucrative area of eve to mine in, do the maths and you'll see that. ...and you don't even have to do the math. http://ore.cerlestes.de/index.html#site:ore The only way to get rid of a temptation is to yield to it.-á-á-á-á-á - Oscar Wilde
Dave Stark 2085	Posted - 2013.03.23 12:24:00 - [15] - Quote Krixtal Icefluxor wrote: Dave Stark wrote: Castor Narcissus wrote: more profitable than high sec. and just like that, with 5 words, you've demonstrated how clueless and stupid you are. high sec mining is the most lucrative area of eve to mine in, do the maths and you'll see that. ...and you don't even have to do the math. http://ore.cerlestes.de/index.html#site:ore well, you kinda do, because you can't just cherry pick a grav site in null, you have to mine the whole thing. which makes those hed/hemo/arkonor roids less attractive when you realise you've got to mine **** like spod and gneiss. Want miners to move from high sec to null sec? Then give them a reason to join player corps, and stop null sec grav sites being worth less isk/hour than high sec asteroid belts. Really isn't difficult.
Krixtal Icefluxor INLAND EMPIRE Galactic 3763	Posted - 2013.03.23 12:27:00 - [16] - Quote Dave Stark wrote: ........when you realise you've got to mine **** like spod and gneiss. Yup. And that's what exactly is found in Low as well. The only way to get rid of a temptation is to yield to it.-á-á-á-á-á - Oscar Wilde
Dave Stark 2085	Posted - 2013.03.23 13:11:00 - [17] - Quote Krixtal Icefluxor wrote: Dave Stark wrote: ........when you realise you've got to mine **** like spod and gneiss. Yup. And that's what exactly is found in Low as well. but in low you can cherry pick to an extent, but low is just a dreadful place to mine before we even begin to discuss the quality of ore. Want miners to move from high sec to null sec? Then give them a reason to join player corps, and stop null sec grav sites being worth less isk/hour than high sec asteroid belts. Really isn't difficult.
Javajunky Eternity INC. Goonswarm Federation 52	Posted - 2013.03.23 13:15:00 - [18] - Quote The ISK m3 hour discussion is irrelevant to the general principle that mining is working as intended.
Krixtal Icefluxor INLAND EMPIRE Galactic 3764	Posted - 2013.03.23 14:24:00 - [19] - Quote Javajunky wrote: The ISK m3 hour discussion is irrelevant to the general principle that mining is working as intended. Too much ABC in grav sites is already well known. Not enough Low Ends in Null Sec is already a known. That really doesn't change the topic about how mining is done is actually working exactly as it should be. That is very true. The only way to get rid of a temptation is to yield to it.-á-á-á-á-á - Oscar Wilde
Krixtal Icefluxor INLAND EMPIRE Galactic 3764	Posted - 2013.03.23 14:25:00 - [20] - Quote I fully expect to receive flame-throwers on full when I post about Low from Trolls who want to either get rid of High, or force 'highseccers' into Low. It'll be interesting. edit: I got so tired of hearing about it, I decided to find out for myself. The only way to get rid of a temptation is to yield to it.-á-á-á-á-á - Oscar Wilde
Javajunky Eternity INC. Goonswarm Federation 53	Posted - 2013.03.23 14:40:00 - [21] - Quote CCP had the best intentions were made with the Drone Regions change. I remember watching the stream where they said they wanted mining to be valuable again. It was progress but I think a little polish is in order. Getting this giant ABC's out of the Grav Sites would really be a good idea. Maybe keelp that love in the XL but that the LG and MED should be nerfed. That would easily bring balance back to the Mining Force. You won't get grief from me on your post. There should be different mining in different places with appropriate risk/investment/reward schema.
Dave Stark 2090	Posted - 2013.03.23 14:59:00 - [22] - Quote i completely agree, the risk/reward factor with mining is horrible as it stands right now. however removing ABCs from grav sites is only going to make that worse. what needs removing is the low quality ores such as spod and gneiss. however, if we simply "delete" them, as it were then we end up with grav sites that have too high a proportion of high ends, which will crash their prices and also be bad. my favourite solutionsolution is to remove low quality ores, by stopping them being low quality by adding more low end minerals to them. this increases their isk/hour slightly, whilst also decreasing the isk/hour of low end ores such as veld/scord due to the increased supply of things like trit/pyerite/mexallon etc. in addition, this also addresses the low end mineral bottle neck experienced by 0.0 industry. Want miners to move from high sec to null sec? Then give them a reason to join player corps, and stop null sec grav sites being worth less isk/hour than high sec asteroid belts. Really isn't difficult.
Kodama Ikari Concordiat Spaceship Samurai 38	Posted - 2013.03.23 17:32:00 - [23] - Quote Good post. Some first-hand PI tips
Zircon Dasher 156	Posted - 2013.03.23 18:22:00 - [24] - Quote Dave Stark wrote: i completely agree, the risk/reward factor with mining is horrible as it stands right now. however removing ABCs from grav sites is only going to make that worse. what needs removing is the low quality ores such as spod and gneiss. however, if we simply "delete" them, as it were then we end up with grav sites that have too high a proportion of high ends, which will crash their prices and also be bad. my favourite solutionsolution is to remove low quality ores, by stopping them being low quality by adding more low end minerals to them. this increases their isk/hour slightly, whilst also decreasing the isk/hour of low end ores such as veld/scord due to the increased supply of things like trit/pyerite/mexallon etc. in addition, this also addresses the low end mineral bottle neck experienced by 0.0 industry. Honest Question: What happens when market trends change? Should CCP constantly tinker with mineral content all the time to keep the ISK/hr figures where you want them? Nerfing High-sec is never the answer. It is the question. The answer is 'YES'.
Krixtal Icefluxor INLAND EMPIRE Galactic 3769	Posted - 2013.03.23 19:03:00 - [25] - Quote Zircon Dasher wrote: Dave Stark wrote: i completely agree, the risk/reward factor with mining is horrible as it stands right now. however removing ABCs from grav sites is only going to make that worse. what needs removing is the low quality ores such as spod and gneiss. however, if we simply "delete" them, as it were then we end up with grav sites that have too high a proportion of high ends, which will crash their prices and also be bad. my favourite solutionsolution is to remove low quality ores, by stopping them being low quality by adding more low end minerals to them. this increases their isk/hour slightly, whilst also decreasing the isk/hour of low end ores such as veld/scord due to the increased supply of things like trit/pyerite/mexallon etc. in addition, this also addresses the low end mineral bottle neck experienced by 0.0 industry. Honest Question: What happens when market trends change? Should CCP constantly tinker with mineral content all the time to keep the ISK/hr figures where you want them? They have been settled into the way they are for a good year now. This is the new paradigm. The last time there was a radical change was when the Noctis was introduced with it's high Nocxium requirement which made Pyroxeres extremely valuable for quite awhile. But that was over 2 1/2 years ago now, so this isn't exactly an everyday thing. There is much to be said in favour of modern journalism. By giving us the opinions of the uneducated, it keeps us in touch with the ignorance of the community.-á-á-á-á - Oscar Wilde
Zircon Dasher 156	Posted - 2013.03.23 19:30:00 - [26] - Quote Krixtal Icefluxor wrote: They have been settled into the way they are for a good year now. This is the new paradigm. The last time there was a radical change was when the Noctis was introduced with it's high Nocxium requirement which made Pyroxeres extremely valuable for quite awhile. But that was over 2 1/2 years ago now, so this isn't exactly an everyday thing. My post was worded too strongly. I went and edited it. Having seen numerous price changes since 2006, forgive me if 1 year of stability is kinda 'meh'. That said, my question does not need for it to be 'everyday'. Every time game/ player changes result in price shifts, is it an efficient use of CCP bandwidth to fiddle with the mineral content of roids? Nerfing High-sec is never the answer. It is the question. The answer is 'YES'.
Dave Stark 2097	Posted - 2013.03.23 19:44:00 - [27] - Quote Zircon Dasher wrote: Dave Stark wrote: i completely agree, the risk/reward factor with mining is horrible as it stands right now. however removing ABCs from grav sites is only going to make that worse. what needs removing is the low quality ores such as spod and gneiss. however, if we simply "delete" them, as it were then we end up with grav sites that have too high a proportion of high ends, which will crash their prices and also be bad. my favourite solutionsolution is to remove low quality ores, by stopping them being low quality by adding more low end minerals to them. this increases their isk/hour slightly, whilst also decreasing the isk/hour of low end ores such as veld/scord due to the increased supply of things like trit/pyerite/mexallon etc. in addition, this also addresses the low end mineral bottle neck experienced by 0.0 industry. Honest Question: What happens when market trends change? Should CCP tinker with mineral content each time there is a trend change in order to keep the ISK/hr figures where you want them? no, but this tinkering has nothing to do with market trends. well, it does, but that's not the whole intention. as it stands, there's an issue with null sec low end mineral supply (basically, it doesn't exist, look at the composition of a large asteroid cluster grav site (the most lucrative of the 5)) also, there's an issue with the whole "risk vs reward" thing with mining. high sec is basically risk free AND has the highest rewards. that, to me, doesn't make sense. I don't think ccp should tinker with the market every time there's a shift in prices, no. that's the beauty of eve's economy. however, i think there is a case for it to be done here due to the fact that the current prices and quite frankly ****** situation we're faced with now is pretty much a direct result of the drone region loot changes an exception should be made. i'm not the only one who thinks this situation is a bit backwards, i even asked mynnna in his CSM thread what he thought about the fact that scordite is worth more isk/m3 than ANY of the grav sites in sov null and his reply was "'s **** up". Want miners to move from high sec to null sec? Then give them a reason to join player corps, and stop null sec grav sites being worth less isk/hour than high sec asteroid belts. Really isn't difficult.
Krixtal Icefluxor INLAND EMPIRE Galactic 3770	Posted - 2013.03.23 20:09:00 - [28] - Quote Dave Stark wrote: i'm not the only one who thinks this situation is a bit backwards, i even asked mynnna in his CSM thread what he thought about the fact that scordite is worth more isk/m3 than ANY of the grav sites in sov null and his reply was "**'s **** up". God is Scordite a pain to mine though. I monitor my cycles for efficiency and they are usually only 1 1/2 -2 Cycles Even though it's a reality it's hard to believe the demand for Pyerite. There is much to be said in favour of modern journalism. By giving us the opinions of the uneducated, it keeps us in touch with the ignorance of the community.-á-á-á-á - Oscar Wilde
Dave Stark 2100	Posted - 2013.03.23 20:17:00 - [29] - Quote Krixtal Icefluxor wrote: Dave Stark wrote: i'm not the only one who thinks this situation is a bit backwards, i even asked mynnna in his CSM thread what he thought about the fact that scordite is worth more isk/m3 than ANY of the grav sites in sov null and his reply was "**'s **** up". God is Scordite a pain to mine though. I monitor my cycles for efficiency and they are usually only 1 1/2 -2 Cycles Even though it's a reality it's hard to believe the demand for Pyerite. i completely agree, scordite is my go-to these days and it's a bit of a pain. i kinda gave up on short cycling and just thought "even incomplete cycles are less of a pain than constantly watching intel/local AND having to haul to jita so bugger it". Want miners to move from high sec to null sec? Then give them a reason to join player corps, and stop null sec grav sites being worth less isk/hour than high sec asteroid belts. Really isn't difficult.
Krixtal Icefluxor INLAND EMPIRE Galactic 3771	Posted - 2013.03.23 20:27:00 - [30] - Quote Dave Stark wrote: Krixtal Icefluxor wrote: Dave Stark wrote: i'm not the only one who thinks this situation is a bit backwards, i even asked mynnna in his CSM thread what he thought about the fact that scordite is worth more isk/m3 than ANY of the grav sites in sov null and his reply was "**'s **** up". God is Scordite a pain to mine though. I monitor my cycles for efficiency and they are usually only 1 1/2 -2 Cycles Even though it's a reality it's hard to believe the demand for Pyerite. i completely agree, scordite is my go-to these days and it's a bit of a pain. i kinda gave up on short cycling and just thought "even incomplete cycles are less of a pain than constantly watching intel/local AND having to haul to jita so bugger it". Yeah, I usually just let the 2nd cycle complete. It's really a bother with 2 Hulks to manage (and an Orca that tractors and salvages). There is much to be said in favour of modern journalism. By giving us the opinions of the uneducated, it keeps us in touch with the ignorance of the community.-á-á-á-á - Oscar Wilde

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