Posting in a stealth Goon Troll Thread to get more multi-Boxers (i.e. TARGETS) to subscribe.

Yes because no one ever mines in Goonswarm lol. I've been an SI poster on the subject for years.

Suck it. Suck it long time.

Posting in a stealth Goon Troll Thread to get more multi-Boxers (i.e. TARGETS) to subscribe.

Yes because no one ever mines in Goonswarm lol. I've been an SI poster on the subject for years.

Suck it. Suck it long time.

more profitable than high sec.

and just like that, with 5 words, you've demonstrated how clueless and stupid you are.

high sec mining is the most lucrative area of eve to mine in, do the maths and you'll see that.

and just like that, with 5 words, you've demonstrated how clueless and stupid you are.

high sec mining is the most lucrative area of eve to mine in, do the maths and you'll see that.

...and you don't even have to do the math. http://ore.cerlestes.de/index.html#site:ore

........when you realise you've got to mine **** like spod and gneiss.

Yup. And that's what exactly is found in Low as well.

The ISK m3 hour discussion is irrelevant to the general principle that mining is working as intended.

Too much ABC in grav sites is already well known. Not enough Low Ends in Null Sec is already a known.

That really doesn't change the topic about how mining is done is actually working exactly as it should be.

i completely agree, the risk/reward factor with mining is horrible as it stands right now.

however removing ABCs from grav sites is only going to make that worse. what needs removing is the low quality ores such as spod and gneiss. however, if we simply "delete" them, as it were then we end up with grav sites that have too high a proportion of high ends, which will crash their prices and also be bad.

my favourite solutionsolution is to remove low quality ores, by stopping them being low quality by adding more low end minerals to them. this increases their isk/hour slightly, whilst also decreasing the isk/hour of low end ores such as veld/scord due to the increased supply of things like trit/pyerite/mexallon etc. in addition, this also addresses the low end mineral bottle neck experienced by 0.0 industry.

Honest Question:

What happens when market trends change? Should CCP constantly tinker with mineral content all the time to keep the ISK/hr figures where you want them?

They have been settled into the way they are for a good year now. This is the new paradigm.

The last time there was a radical change was when the Noctis was introduced with it's high Nocxium requirement which made Pyroxeres extremely valuable for quite awhile. But that was over 2 1/2 years ago now, so this isn't exactly an everyday thing.

Honest Question:

What happens when market trends change? Should CCP tinker with mineral content each time there is a trend change in order to keep the ISK/hr figures where you want them?

i'm not the only one who thinks this situation is a bit backwards, i even asked mynnna in his CSM thread what he thought about the fact that scordite is worth more isk/m3 than ANY of the grav sites in sov null and his reply was "****'s ****** up".

God is Scordite a pain to mine though. I monitor my cycles for efficiency and they are usually only 1 1/2 -2 Cycles Even though it's a reality it's hard to believe the demand for Pyerite.

i completely agree, scordite is my go-to these days and it's a bit of a pain. i kinda gave up on short cycling and just thought "even incomplete cycles are less of a pain than constantly watching intel/local AND having to haul to jita so bugger it".

A NEW "SPACESCAPE"
A rebalance of major areas of space from highsec to nullsec include changes in exploration sites, industrial resources, some types of NPC loot and moreGǪ

no, but this tinkering has nothing to do with market trends. well, it does, but that's not the whole intention.

as it stands, there's an issue with null sec low end mineral supply (basically, it doesn't exist, look at the composition of a large asteroid cluster grav site (the most lucrative of the 5))
also, there's an issue with the whole "risk vs reward" thing with mining. high sec is basically risk free AND has the highest rewards. that, to me, doesn't make sense.

I don't think ccp should tinker with the market every time there's a shift in prices, no. that's the beauty of eve's economy.
however, i think there is a case for it to be done here due to the fact that the current prices and quite frankly ******** situation we're faced with now is pretty much a direct result of the drone region loot changes an exception should be made.

i'm not the only one who thinks this situation is a bit backwards, i even asked mynnna in his CSM thread what he thought about the fact that scordite is worth more isk/m3 than ANY of the grav sites in sov null and his reply was "****'s ****** up".

i completely agree, the risk/reward factor with mining is horrible as it stands right now.

however removing ABCs from grav sites is only going to make that worse. what needs removing is the low quality ores such as spod and gneiss. however, if we simply "delete" them, as it were then we end up with grav sites that have too high a proportion of high ends, which will crash their prices and also be bad.

my favourite solutionsolution is to remove low quality ores, by stopping them being low quality by adding more low end minerals to them. this increases their isk/hour slightly, whilst also decreasing the isk/hour of low end ores such as veld/scord due to the increased supply of things like trit/pyerite/mexallon etc. in addition, this also addresses the low end mineral bottle neck experienced by 0.0 industry.

stuff that barely makes sense.

I wasn't referencing the removal of all ABC's from the Grav, I was only referencing the additional rocks that were added during the Drone Poo Nerf.

Extra 70K Crok added to the Medium
Extra 100K Bistot + 35K Arkanor in the Large
Extra 100K Bistot + 150K Crok added to the XL
Not sure what happened in the Giant...Bloodtear Brosefs feel free to chime in.

Honestly you could pull these back out and you would restore null sec isk/per hour pretty easily. Personally I don't really think there needs to be a change in to the low end ores. they seem to be working as intended my empire mining friends are happy campers. Even if they do push more high ends out into Null space, CCP is not going be able to get that many more people mining in null to support the vast amount of ships required, figure it more like they are going to hook up the miners who like mining and make it better but they aren't going cut the empire miners legs out from under them. CCP loves miners and really does want them to be happy. It's all about the OCD multi-boxers and keeping them addicted and growing. They've got a separate department for ADHD and that is called PVP :)

k

hmm i have no idea when those changes took place. i thought they were before the drone changes? i could be mistaken, of course.

i don't want them to cut empire miners legs out from under them; i just want null sec to be a place i'd want to go and mine. as it stands i've got to follow some big ass alliances rules and regulations, and get my stuff all the way from null to jita, AND all for less isk? why would any one want to do that? there's a reason most of the mining happens in high sec; because it's the only place where it's really viable as a "profession".

It came out one cycle before the drone poo change. I can't remember dates but I remember going drool... this is so cool something must be changing and a couple months later the word on drone poo hit the street. Drone Poo and Bot Sweeps hit about the same time if I remember correctly (anyone else got some dates feel free to throw em in).

Although its off topic from OP, CCP removed drone poo from null sec and at the same time did some heavy handed bot banning. They overshot when it came to compensating for High End Minerals and it would be fair to say they slightly underestimated the amount of low ends that were being vacuumed up by these folks. Net Net isk per hour nose dived in Null Sec and Shot way up in Empire.

Note today's announcement at PAX East I'm guessing my OP items may prove to be valid. We'll have to wait and see

Compensating the high ends probably was overdone, but I am not sure that low-ends were underestimated. To be sure a shitton of low ends were being produced, but after the nerf a lot of people just found other things to do besides generate minerals, so the short-fall was never picked up. I was under the impression that the majority of people who were grinding high-ends with mining lasers never really changed their behavior. Is that playing semantics? Kinda. The difference only matters when you think about EVE as an ecosystem.

Here is to hoping that whatever changes are coming down the pike are based in reason and not how many players beleive x or y.

BTW: Sorry for the off-topic posts. And +1 in regards to the OP.

I think you are correct, one thing I remember was the drone poo nerf dropped about the same time (around fan fest last year I think) we saw a massive bot sweep by CCP. I'd almost call it the perfect storm for empire miners.

stuff

In general, with the botters being gone, people are getting a "living wage" now from mining the lowends (veld, etc). The trouble is, that since the botters were depressing the prices so much for so long, many would-be miners either

- quit eve
- did it long enough to bootstrap something else (missioning, manufacturing)
- did it until they heard about something else that makes boatloads more ISK (incursions/w-space)

So, now there aren't "enough" miners to provide that downward market pressure...

In general, with the botters being gone....

Best laugh of the morning.

ugh "gone" was supposed to be in quotes

@ Dave -- who's to say the source of drone poo wasn't botters either.

my (poorly made) point being that there was a vacuum created because a lot of players who may have been miners (or stayed as miners) were pushed out due to the bots/drone poo/whatever.

my (poorly made) point being that there was a vacuum created because a lot of players who may have been miners (or stayed as miners) were pushed out due to the bots/drone poo/whatever.

What is interesting to consider is why player response has been slow to respond to the mineral market incentives. Meaning what factors have kept people from moving back to mineral generation in sufficient enough numbers to put that downward pressure on prices post drone-poo nerf? Or you can take the counterfactual route and ask why the price has not responded negatively to the influx of miners.

You obviously have no idea how much Trit and Pyerite is required for Capital Ships, especially Titans.

Believe me they are mining it as fast as possible. Some days I feel like one of the few non-ISBoxers.

And when the nerf happened, mineral price decline did not follow the production decline.

I think not.

Pre-nerf factors definitely played into the (un)popularity of mining as an income stream. I agree wholeheartedly. One of my points was that when the nerf happened, the many people generating minerals via drone poo did not move to mining (they found other things to do too). So there was an exaggerated gap after drone poo was done away with.

What is interesting to consider is why player response has been slow to respond to the mineral market incentives. Meaning what factors have kept people from moving back to mineral generation in sufficient enough numbers to put that downward pressure on prices post drone-poo nerf? Or you can take the counterfactual route and ask why the price has not responded negatively to the influx of miners.

Most likely answering neither question, individually, is sufficient to explain our current situation. If, however, the interest (mine) is how to create a healthy ecosystems in all spaces, then the answers to these questions are important. Dave's concern over ISK/HR is important, given that people NOT mining can cause the 'best' ISK/HR to shift between security spaces, because it creates certain hurdles. Focusing on concerns over the local (un)availability of minerals necessary for production creates other hurdles. Unfortunately, if you focus on short-term fixes to one set of questions you can very quickly exacerbate the problems that stem from the other set.

All in all, it was a tangent from the OP based only upon my own interests.... asking the questions that shed light on where things go in the future, of course, is of interest to anyone that mines (anywhere). I am a big softy and think it would be unfortunate if people geared up thinking our current situation is stable, only to have the rug pulled out from underneath them in 3mo.

@ Dave -- who's to say the source of drone poo wasn't botters either.

my (poorly made) point being that there was a vacuum created because a lot of players who may have been miners (or stayed as miners) were pushed out due to the bots/drone poo/whatever.

Furthermore, the "smarter" players who're reading the forums (either these ones, or other eve-o ones, or other eve-o related sites such as EN24 or mittani news) "know" that if you're in a barge, you will get ganked with 100% certainty.

Hmmmmm.....100% ? Like all the time ? Last time I was ganked in a Barge was over 2 years ago.

And that was before I could use 2 Barges, and was distracted from what was going on by fighting off rats.

Still mostly my fault for not fleeing when the scouting Cheetah uncloaked, but that's how we learn I guess.

not to mention ccp have already said that it's at an all time low.

Yup. Now that Macks (and Hulks) can fit Invuln Shields and Shield Boostesr and be swarming with Shield Repair Drones. Makes things a bit more challenging most indeed.

this, barge ganking isn't as common as people would cry and have you believe.

not to mention ccp have already said that it's at an all time low.

@ Dave -- Can you clarify what you mean about the bot removal not leaving a vacuum (though, I suppose "deficit" is a better term)? Also, source on miner numbers going up would be awesome, as I don't recall seeing that devblog (or, more likely, I skimmed right over it).

i don't think any one was really "pushed out of mining", but there's no doubt there's a "deficit" of minerals in comparison to what there was, hence why mineral and ship prices have generally almost doubled since the change, not quite double now things have settled down and tiericide speculation is almost over.

there was a dev blog a while ago, while it didn't explicitly say "there are more players mining" the volume of ore mined had increased, which implies there are more miners now. the jump was very noticable in the ore volume mined in high sec.

Mining post, needs locked zero content.

That's probably why I couldn't recall it then.

In general, I think "pushed out" may have been too strong of a phrase ... though people these days seem to be more focused on ISK/hr rather than "hey, as a corp, we're gonna do this". And all that ends up doing is fracturing people within the corp.

another issue with mining is that corps have NOTHING they can offer miners. not a damn thing.

Seriously.

Well, there is the occasional Orca Boost for the player with only one toon or a still-training Orca alt.

but of all the accounts that mine (accounts, not players) i highly doubt there are many that fall in to that category.

i know when i started i was firm and said "no, i will only have 1 account!" aaaaand now i have my own mini mining fleet. i think any one that mines quickly realises they can afford to plex multiple accounts and quite quickly ends up making their own mini fleet.

but of all the accounts that mine (accounts, not players) i highly doubt there are many that fall in to that category.

i know when i started i was firm and said "no, i will only have 1 account!" aaaaand now i have my own mini mining fleet. i think any one that mines quickly realises they can afford to plex multiple accounts and quite quickly ends up making their own mini fleet.

Indeed ... though these days I'm finding I'm using my mining boost alt less and less for the mining boosts ... more and more for the shield boosts tho