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Trebor Daehdoow
Dirt Nap Squad Dirt Nap Squad.
2745
|
Posted - 2013.03.21 23:42:00 -
[1] - Quote
During the CSM 7 elections, I published my Independent Voter's Guide to the CSM 7 Elections. Given the changes in the election system this time around, I thought it might be a good idea to post an updated guide to help voters make a more informed choice.
Fortunately, the new Wright-STV voting system addresses many of the problems with the old system that required voters to make cruel choices and vote tactically in order to secure representation. Now you can vote for all the candidates you like; your only challenge is ranking them in order of preference.
How to make the most of your vote
Wright-STV tries to use as much of your voting power as possible. If, for example, your preferred candidate gets more votes than he needs to get elected, a fractional part of your vote transfers to your second preference. Similarly, if your favorite candidate gets eliminated from consideration, all of your vote transfers to your second preference. This process continues until all of your vote is used or there are no viable candidates left on your ballot to receive a transfer.
For this reason, the more candidates you add to your ballot, the better. Most of the candidates will be publishing their recommendations ("me first, then these guys") which you may wish to use as a guide.
With respect to how you rank the candidates on your ballot, Wright-STV is resistant to tactical voting games, so simply rank them in the order of your actual preference.
How to evaluate the candidates
This section is of course my subjective opinion. I've served on the last 3 CSMs, but what do I know...
Good CSM candidates tend to exhibit the following qualities:
* They communicate well.
* They argue their positions clearly and fairly, and avoid cheap debating tricks and trolling.
* They demonstrate the ability to work hard in a group context.
* They have significant professional experience (not necessarily in the computer and/or games business).
* They can take the heat, because being a CSM can be a thankless job. A good proxy for this is how they handle the inevitable trolling in their campaign threads.
* They have a reasonable campaign platform -- but pay more attention to how they present and defend it, as opposed to what their positions are. You have 14 slots on your ballot, and some of them should go to candidates whose opinions you may disagree with, but can clearly do a good job of advocacy. The truth is that CSM spends most of its time working on things that most people can agree upon, and a diversity of viewpoints helps make those arguments stronger.
Red Flags:
* They say they're going to get CCP to implement particular changes to the game. If so, they're either lying or clueless.
* Their campaign platforms are obviously implausible.
* They are not getting trolled. If even the trolls don't think they're worth the effort, then they probably not going to do well on the CSM. Of course, now that I've said this... 
Preliminary Election Strategy
This year there is a preliminary election. To qualify for the final ballot, a candidate must receive 200 votes in the prelims, and you can only vote for one candidate.
I personally think these are a waste of time, but whatever...
However, the prelims last for a week, and candidates will be notified when they have passed the 200 vote mark.
So if you want to maximize your voting power, your strategy should be something like this:
* If you have only one favorite candidate, just vote for him with all your accounts on the first day of the prelims (March 22nd).
* If you have more than one favorite candidate, you want to space out your voting so that hopefully some of your favorites will have already passed the threshold, allowing you to focus your votes on a smaller number of candidates.
A simple strategy: If you have N accounts, cast N/(days_left_in_election) votes each day (round down) for your favorite candidate who has not yet qualified.
This strategy means you'll be voting as late as possible. While this maximizes your information, it also induces a huge amount of anxiety in the poor candidates as they wait to find out if they made the cut. Some may consider this a bonus, but for those of you who are of a mind to be kind, just round up instead of down (so you'll be casting at least one vote every day until you run out).
One other subtlety: vote early on your first day of voting, but late (after 18:00 EVE) on subsequent days if you can. This maximizes the chance you'll learn that a candidate has passed the threshold before you cast your next vote.
PS: if my dear friends in Goonswarm could do us all a favor and just put 200 votes on every candidate, it'd save the rest of us a lot of trouble, and you'll get to see CCP Xhagen chase me around Fanfest with a battleaxe.  Re-elect Trebor to CSM8 GÇó Member of CSM 5-7 GÇó My CSM Blog |

Trebor Daehdoow
Dirt Nap Squad Dirt Nap Squad.
2745
|
Posted - 2013.03.21 23:42:00 -
[2] - Quote
(reserved) Re-elect Trebor to CSM8 GÇó Member of CSM 5-7 GÇó My CSM Blog |

Poetic Stanziel
Fweddit I Whip My Slaves Back and Forth
1811
|
Posted - 2013.03.21 23:47:00 -
[3] - Quote
Terrible Trebor's Terrible Guide.
Not casting a vote for Trebor is saying NO to Theme Park gameplay. Amarr Militia - Fweddit - http://fweddit.com Poetic Discourse - http://poeticstanziel.blogspot.com |

Poetic Stanziel
Fweddit I Whip My Slaves Back and Forth
1811
|
Posted - 2013.03.21 23:53:00 -
[4] - Quote
Trebor Daehdoow wrote:... candidates will be notified when they have passed the 200 vote mark. Candidates do not have to notify the playerbase when they hit the quota. It is in the candidates best interests to keep this a secret, so that they can continue to bleed potential primary votes from their opposition.
Amarr Militia - Fweddit - http://fweddit.com Poetic Discourse - http://poeticstanziel.blogspot.com |

mynnna
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
703
|
Posted - 2013.03.21 23:54:00 -
[5] - Quote
Poetic Stanziel wrote:Terrible Trebor's Terrible Guide.
Not casting a vote for Trebor is saying NO to Theme Park gameplay.
On the other hand, casting a vote for Trebor guarantees another year of you throwing apoplectic fits. I consider this to be a worthy goal. Alleged themepark tendencies can be checked as and if necessary. Mynnna for CSM 8 |

Apricot Baby
caldariprimeponyclub
24
|
Posted - 2013.03.22 00:07:00 -
[6] - Quote
I don't ever actively campaign apart from pictures and surveys, so I may end out proving that the 200 minimum vote mechanic is meaningful. :3
Will be interested to see how you class candidates this year.
<3 Apricot Baby CSM Participation Reward Program - www.tinyurl.com/caldariprimeponyclub Earn rewards for taking part in this year's CSM Elections |

Ripard Teg
Selective Pressure Rote Kapelle
519
|
Posted - 2013.03.22 00:15:00 -
[7] - Quote
I endorse this product and/or service.
(Particularly the part about watching Xhagen chasing Trebor around with a battle-axe. That sounds like a hoot.) Jester's Trek: wherein I ramble about EVE Online, gaming, and from time to time... life. |

Renslip Darkdraught
Fweddit I Whip My Slaves Back and Forth
50
|
Posted - 2013.03.22 00:25:00 -
[8] - Quote
#notrebornothemepark Drunk tank, best tank. |

Trebor Daehdoow
Dirt Nap Squad Dirt Nap Squad.
2745
|
Posted - 2013.03.22 00:29:00 -
[9] - Quote
Poetic Stanziel wrote:Candidates do not have to notify the playerbase when they hit the quota. It is in the candidates best interests to keep this a secret, so that they can continue to bleed potential primary votes from their opposition.
Any candidate who wishes to alienate his supporters by having them do anything more than the minimum needed to qualify for the ballot (especially when you don't have to get more votes than other candidates, just a fixed total) is quite welcome to do so. I would not, however, recommend it. Re-elect Trebor to CSM8 GÇó Member of CSM 5-7 GÇó My CSM Blog |

Nathan Jameson
Talocan Dominion Talocan United
867
|
Posted - 2013.03.22 00:46:00 -
[10] - Quote
Trebor Daehdoow wrote:Poetic Stanziel wrote:Candidates do not have to notify the playerbase when they hit the quota. It is in the candidates best interests to keep this a secret, so that they can continue to bleed potential primary votes from their opposition.
Any candidate who wishes to alienate his supporters by having them do anything more than the minimum needed to qualify for the ballot (especially when you don't have to get more votes than other candidates, just a fixed total) is quite welcome to do so. I would not, however, recommend it.
Except that pre-election result numbers WILL be published, and (fair or not) voters will be looking at these numbers when preparing for the final election. Nathan Jameson for CSM 8! My CSM 8 Blog My Twitter |

Poetic Stanziel
Fweddit I Whip My Slaves Back and Forth
1815
|
Posted - 2013.03.22 00:47:00 -
[11] - Quote
Trebor Daehdoow wrote:Poetic Stanziel wrote:Candidates do not have to notify the playerbase when they hit the quota. It is in the candidates best interests to keep this a secret, so that they can continue to bleed potential primary votes from their opposition. Any candidate who wishes to alienate his supporters ... I'm not sure his supporters will care all that much if the opposition cries "dirty pool." Amarr Militia - Fweddit - http://fweddit.com Poetic Discourse - http://poeticstanziel.blogspot.com |

Poetic Stanziel
Fweddit I Whip My Slaves Back and Forth
1815
|
Posted - 2013.03.22 00:50:00 -
[12] - Quote
mynnna wrote:Iit can't very well do that if you list a bunch of hopeless candidates as your top several choices. That's the magic of an STV system. You can list a bunch of schmucks first ... and if they don't reach the minimum votes, your vote keeps moving on to the next *******, until it finally reaches a non-*******.
I'll likely list Roc Wieler first. If he doesn't make it, my vote will filter to the next person on my list, maybe that will be Ripard, followed by Psychotic Monk, followed by Malcanis, followed by Unforgiven Storm. At some point, my vote will count.
Amarr Militia - Fweddit - http://fweddit.com Poetic Discourse - http://poeticstanziel.blogspot.com |

Orisa Medeem
Hedion University Amarr Empire
27
|
Posted - 2013.03.22 01:01:00 -
[13] - Quote
Some people may prefer to cast as many votes as possible for their primary candidates during the prelims, even if/when that candidate announces that the threshold was met. The prelim results are announced and it is known that some votes just vote for whoever is winning.
So, by helping their main candidate do well in the first round they are improving the chances of said candidate overall, and thus adding a little bit extra value for their own vote. :sand: -áover -á:awesome: |

mynnna
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
706
|
Posted - 2013.03.22 02:41:00 -
[14] - Quote
Poetic Stanziel wrote:mynnna wrote:Iit can't very well do that if you list a bunch of hopeless candidates as your top several choices. That's the magic of an STV system. You can list a bunch of schmucks first ... and if they don't reach the minimum votes, your vote keeps moving on to the next *******, until it finally reaches a non-*******. I'll likely list Roc Wieler first. If he doesn't make it, my vote will filter to the next person on my list, maybe that will be Ripard, followed by Psychotic Monk, followed by Malcanis, followed by Unforgiven Storm. At some point, my vote will count.
You're missing the point though. If you can jam as many "schmucks" in as possible you raise the odds of the existence of entirely *******-filled ballots. It's small, but from a bloc perspective, in an election system in which seats are awarded proportionally based on the number of votes "your" candidates receive collectively, every opportunity you can take to create ballots that will be "wasted" increases your voting power. Mynnna for CSM 8 |

Sabriz Adoudel
Resurgent Threat
139
|
Posted - 2013.03.22 02:47:00 -
[15] - Quote
Two things to add. Disclaimer: I'm voting Psychotic Monk.
One, I strongly disagree with voting for people if you disagree with their platform. If you disagree with someone's platform, they'll give CCP feedback you do not want CCP to get. So put them last or leave them off the ballot.
Secondly, there are some ways to game STV slightly, but the main thing to remember is the following:
- In STV, if you put candidate A ahead of candidate B, your vote cannot contribute to B winning a contest against A. However, if you leave both A and B off your ballot, your vote has a small chance of contributing to B winning a contest against A.
As such, if you STRONGLY feel that candidate X should not be on the CSM (not just an 'I don't think they offer anything' but an 'I think candidate X will do more harm than good to the CSM'), then you should fill in every box and put candidate X last.
This will prevent your vote becoming exhausted, potentially reducing the quota under the number of votes candidate X requires to get elected.
Signed, someone that's done the numbers in student elections that have used STV. '... you cannot reason with the mining bots, you cannot negotiate with them, you can only bring them judgement in the form of Navy Antimatter, turn their Mackinaws to salvage and dust, smartbomb their pods, and burn their Mining Link implants with sweet incense...'- The Gospel according to St James 315 |

Poetic Stanziel
Fweddit I Whip My Slaves Back and Forth
1816
|
Posted - 2013.03.22 03:02:00 -
[16] - Quote
mynnna wrote:Poetic Stanziel wrote:mynnna wrote:Iit can't very well do that if you list a bunch of hopeless candidates as your top several choices. That's the magic of an STV system. You can list a bunch of schmucks first ... and if they don't reach the minimum votes, your vote keeps moving on to the next *******, until it finally reaches a non-*******. I'll likely list Roc Wieler first. If he doesn't make it, my vote will filter to the next person on my list, maybe that will be Ripard, followed by Psychotic Monk, followed by Malcanis, followed by Unforgiven Storm. At some point, my vote will count. You're missing the point though. If you can jam as many "schmucks" in as possible you raise the odds of the existence of entirely *******-filled ballots. It's small, but from a bloc perspective, in an election system in which seats are awarded proportionally based on the number of votes "your" candidates receive collectively, every opportunity you can take to create ballots that will be "wasted" increases your voting power. That's very true.
Twenty people could list Xenuria first on their ballot, and if 5000 people list Xenuria tenth on their ballot, it doesn't matter, because Xenuria will have been eliminated well before that point.
One can assume that the non-organized voters will be placing their candidates all over the place in their rankings, and the more people for them to choose from, the more random and haphazard that becomes.
The strength of the STV system really only occurs in the first four or five rankings. If some dude is ranked in mostly equal distribution from first to fourteenth, they'll likely be eliminated fairly soon in the process. before any lower rankings can make a difference for them. Amarr Militia - Fweddit - http://fweddit.com Poetic Discourse - http://poeticstanziel.blogspot.com |

Sabriz Adoudel
Resurgent Threat
139
|
Posted - 2013.03.22 04:00:00 -
[17] - Quote
Poetic Stanziel wrote:mynnna wrote:Poetic Stanziel wrote:mynnna wrote:Iit can't very well do that if you list a bunch of hopeless candidates as your top several choices. That's the magic of an STV system. You can list a bunch of schmucks first ... and if they don't reach the minimum votes, your vote keeps moving on to the next *******, until it finally reaches a non-*******. I'll likely list Roc Wieler first. If he doesn't make it, my vote will filter to the next person on my list, maybe that will be Ripard, followed by Psychotic Monk, followed by Malcanis, followed by Unforgiven Storm. At some point, my vote will count. You're missing the point though. If you can jam as many "schmucks" in as possible you raise the odds of the existence of entirely *******-filled ballots. It's small, but from a bloc perspective, in an election system in which seats are awarded proportionally based on the number of votes "your" candidates receive collectively, every opportunity you can take to create ballots that will be "wasted" increases your voting power. That's very true. Twenty people could list Xenuria first on their ballot, and if 5000 people list Xenuria tenth on their ballot, it doesn't matter, because Xenuria will have been eliminated well before that point. One can assume that the non-organized voters will be placing their candidates all over the place in their rankings, and the more people for them to choose from, the more random and haphazard that becomes. The strength of the STV system really only occurs in the first four or five rankings. If some dude is ranked in mostly equal distribution from first to fourteenth, they'll likely be eliminated fairly soon in the process. before any later ballots can make a difference for them.
My understanding of this form of STV is that it is designed to minimize early elimination of candidates.
If you had the following outcome: 98 people vote '1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6' and 1 votes '6, 5, 4, 3, 2, 1' and you are electing three people, you will see this happen:
First round: All candidates with 25 elected (1) and their votes are transferred. So now you have 73 votes for 2, and 1 for 6.
Second round: 2 declared elected. 48 votes transferred (all to 3 in this case).
Third round: 3 declared elected. All positions filled, election closed. Note that 2 and 3 are never 'eliminated' despite having no first preference votes and in fact both are elected. That does not happen until no individual has enough votes to be elected outright. '... you cannot reason with the mining bots, you cannot negotiate with them, you can only bring them judgement in the form of Navy Antimatter, turn their Mackinaws to salvage and dust, smartbomb their pods, and burn their Mining Link implants with sweet incense...'- The Gospel according to St James 315 |

Kelduum Revaan
EVE University Ivy League
2022
|
Posted - 2013.03.22 08:04:00 -
[18] - Quote
mynnna wrote:Poetic Stanziel wrote:Terrible Trebor's Terrible Guide.
Not casting a vote for Trebor is saying NO to Theme Park gameplay. On the other hand, casting a vote for Trebor guarantees another year of you throwing apoplectic fits. I consider this to be a worthy goal. Me too, and its what accounted for about half my votes last election.
I'd be interested to hear if Poe actually realises this or not...
Kelduum Revaan CEO, EVE University |

DJWiggles
Eve Radio Corporation
51
|
Posted - 2013.03.22 08:40:00 -
[19] - Quote
Poetic Stanziel wrote:Terrible Trebor's Terrible Guide.
Not casting a vote for Trebor is saying NO to Theme Park gameplay.
IMHO its a better guide than sticking a pin in the telephone directory. Live on Eve Radio Wednesdays 20:00 GMT with me & friends blabbering on about Eve and stuff-áFollow me on twitter http://twitter.com/WigglesGRN, like me on facebook http://facebook.com/wigglesGRN or check out my blog http://wiggles.gamingradio.net/blog
|

Snow Axe
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1081
|
Posted - 2013.03.22 08:40:00 -
[20] - Quote
Look at you bads pretending that Poetic won't find something or someone to throw an apoplectic fit about if Trebor isn't elected. "Look any reason why you need to talk like that? I have now reported you. I dont need to listen to your bad tone. If you cant have a grown up conversation then leave the thread[" |

Poetic Stanziel
Fweddit I Whip My Slaves Back and Forth
1818
|
Posted - 2013.03.22 08:46:00 -
[21] - Quote
Kelduum Revaan wrote:Me too, and its what accounted for about half my votes last election. Trebor doesn't have a solid base. You do.
With you, I upset the entire University and many ex-Unistas (many of whom eventually agreed that you were a bad vote, and that they should have listened to me) ... who am I upsetting with Trebor? Dirt Nap Squad? Trebor doesn't even play EVE anymore, I doubt most DNS even know who he is. Plus they're tiny.
Trebor will win a seat because he mass evemails again. The effect of that can be diluted.
Amarr Militia - Fweddit - http://fweddit.com Poetic Discourse - http://poeticstanziel.blogspot.com |

Poetic Stanziel
Fweddit I Whip My Slaves Back and Forth
1818
|
Posted - 2013.03.22 08:48:00 -
[22] - Quote
Snow Axe wrote:Look at you bads pretending that Poetic won't find something or someone to throw an apoplectic fit about if Trebor isn't elected. What he said. There's always stuff to throw fits about. Apoplectic or not. Amarr Militia - Fweddit - http://fweddit.com Poetic Discourse - http://poeticstanziel.blogspot.com |

Trebor Daehdoow
Dirt Nap Squad Dirt Nap Squad.
2750
|
Posted - 2013.03.22 10:02:00 -
[23] - Quote
Sabriz Adoudel wrote:One, I strongly disagree with voting for people if you disagree with their platform. If you disagree with someone's platform, they'll give CCP feedback you do not want CCP to get. So put them last or leave them off the ballot. If CSM were a deliberative legislature, you would have a point. But as an advocacy group, and in particular one where most of the time, the issues are common, your first priority should be to get some people on the CSM that represents your point of view, and then get some people on that you think will help the group make stronger arguments and be more influential.
For example, it's no secret that Alekseyev Karrde and I have different philosophies about the game, but a lot of good came out of us working together. He forced me to make better arguments, and vice-versa. And where we agreed upon the goals but disagreed about the tactics (as happened, for example, in the drafting of the Strategy Document), the end-result was the better for it.
This is why, it may surprise you to learn, Psychotic Monk will be on my recommended ballot (unless he does something spectacularly dumb, of course).
The bottom line is, vote for the 14 candidates you think are the best. But for me, "agrees with me about the game" is only one factor in determining "best". Re-elect Trebor to CSM8 GÇó Member of CSM 5-7 GÇó My CSM Blog |

Poetic Stanziel
Fweddit I Whip My Slaves Back and Forth
1818
|
Posted - 2013.03.22 21:02:00 -
[24] - Quote
Trebor and Ripard have similar ideologies. The difference is that Ripard believes highsec is about as safe as it should be (perhaps a tad too safe.) Whereas Trebor believes highsec can and should be made safer as long as it brings in new subscribers. Trebor would have you believe that EVE is in some sort of financial difficulty, and thus themepark game play should be brought in if it means more subscribers. He'll further dazzle you with the idea that if CCP can bring in more money, then they can hire more devs, and finally start working on a POS revamp. This is a complete fallacy. CCP is more than likely going to put extra money towards accelerating development on its two other properties, DUST and World of Darkness.
Trebor's thinking in a nutshell is that "We can screw the game to improve the game." Which, of course, doesn't work. Except in his mind.
If you need to vote a highsec candidate, then vote Ripard Teg over Terrible Trebor. Ripard doesn't want to destroy the game for a few extra bucks. Trebor does. Amarr Militia - Fweddit - http://fweddit.com Poetic Discourse - http://poeticstanziel.blogspot.com |

Trebor Daehdoow
Dirt Nap Squad Dirt Nap Squad.
2751
|
Posted - 2013.03.22 21:25:00 -
[25] - Quote
Poetic Stanziel wrote:Kelduum Revaan wrote:Me too, and its what accounted for about half my votes last election. Trebor doesn't have a solid base. You do. My base isn't defined by my in-game group, and never has been. I've been elected as part of The Initiative and Dirt Nap Squad, for example. Your pattern indicates two-dimensional thinking.
Poetic Stanziel wrote:Trebor will win a seat because he mass evemails again. The effect of that can be diluted. If you truly believe that I got re-elected because I mass-evemailed, then you ought to congratulate me. In your scenario, with no base to depend on, and doomed to defeat, I saved the Kobayashi Maru and beat the no-win scenario. You're just torqued because you didn't think of it, and neither did anyone else you like.
Quite frankly, I think I deserve a commendation for original thinking. But I understand that superior intellects might disagree, especially those who have indulged in too much Romulan Ale and/or Klingon Aphrodisiacs.
As for what might happen this year, I guess you'll have to stand by for my transmission. 
Re-elect Trebor to CSM8 GÇó Member of CSM 5-7 GÇó My CSM Blog |

Poetic Stanziel
Fweddit I Whip My Slaves Back and Forth
1818
|
Posted - 2013.03.22 21:30:00 -
[26] - Quote
Trebor Daehdoow wrote:Your pattern indicates two-dimensional thinking. Could you throw out some more nonsense rhetoric?
Trebor Daehdoow wrote:Kobayashi Maru ... Romulan Ale ... Klingon Aphrodisiacs And we need more Star Trek analogies. We can never get enough of those.  Amarr Militia - Fweddit - http://fweddit.com Poetic Discourse - http://poeticstanziel.blogspot.com |

Trebor Daehdoow
Dirt Nap Squad Dirt Nap Squad.
2751
|
Posted - 2013.03.22 21:33:00 -
[27] - Quote
Poetic Stanziel wrote:Could you throw out some more nonsense rhetoric? I should have known better than to try and compete with the master of that domain. Re-elect Trebor to CSM8 GÇó Member of CSM 5-7 GÇó My CSM Blog |

Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
8257
|
Posted - 2013.03.22 21:35:00 -
[28] - Quote
Poetic Stanziel wrote:Trebor and Ripard have similar ideologies. The difference is that Ripard believes highsec is about as safe as it should be (perhaps a tad too safe.) Whereas Trebor believes highsec can and should be made safer as long as it brings in new subscribers. Trebor would have you believe that EVE is in some sort of financial difficulty, and thus themepark game play should be brought in if it means more subscribers. He'll further dazzle you with the idea that if CCP can bring in more money, then they can hire more devs, and finally start working on a POS revamp. This is a complete fallacy. CCP is more than likely going to put extra EVE Online revenue towards accelerating development on its two other properties, DUST and World of Darkness.
Trebor's thinking in a nutshell is that "We can screw the game to improve the game." Which, of course, doesn't work. Except in his mind.
If you need to vote a highsec candidate, then vote Ripard Teg over Terrible Trebor. Ripard doesn't want to destroy the game for a few extra bucks. Trebor does.
Perhaps we should establish just how many bucks it would take to induce Ripard to destroy hisec? Vote for Malcanis for CSM8 https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=192717&find=unread |

Ripard Teg
Selective Pressure Rote Kapelle
521
|
Posted - 2013.03.22 22:29:00 -
[29] - Quote
Poetic Stanziel wrote:If you need to vote a highsec candidate, then vote Ripard Teg I do enjoy endorsements.  Jester's Trek: wherein I ramble about EVE Online, gaming, and from time to time... life. |

Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
8257
|
Posted - 2013.03.22 23:09:00 -
[30] - Quote
Rote Kapelle that well known hi sec alliance! Vote for Malcanis for CSM8 https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=192717&find=unread |
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