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Kosetzu Red Federation RvB - RED Federation 64	Posted - 2013.03.25 15:41:00 - [31] - Quote The VC's wrote: 3. Reveals he can't fit a full rack of guns which implies poor support skills so should probably give sp intensive ships a miss for a while. This is usually the problem when you ask for advice on the forums, as most who have an opinion based on experience usually has maxed out fitting skills already (myself included). If you're afraid of loosing ships left and right go on the test server, try out some fits and see how you like the feel of them. You can even train different skills there from TQ so you can essentially skill for ships you actually can't fly and try them out without 'wasting' time skilling for it just to abandon it.
Kahega Amielden Rifterlings Point Blank Alliance 680	Posted - 2013.03.25 17:16:00 - [32] - Quote Quote: Well yes, unless someone says something to change my mind on it, presents some kind of logic or reasoning I hadn't considered, etc. then I think the bonus on the Omen is somewhat crappy. You only think it's crappy because you don't view cap use as a meaningful problem and refuse to see the advantages lasers hold over other weapon systems. You acknowledge the inherent downsides of lasers but refuse to realize that they have inherent upsides relative to other weapon systems as well.
Asmodai Xodai Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire 29	Posted - 2013.03.25 22:07:00 - [33] - Quote Kahega Amielden wrote: You only think it's crappy because you don't view cap use as a meaningful problem .... Of course cap is a meaningful problem, as is any ship system. I just don't consider it a good 'bonus' to actually be able to fit my racial weapon, because every other race gets that 'bonus' for free. The fact that CCP has been removing this sort of 'bonus' for Amarr ships tends to support what I'm saying. Quote: You acknowledge the inherent downsides of lasers but refuse to realize that they have inherent upsides relative to other weapon systems as well. I have acknowledged upsides - for instance the ability to switch crystals in about a second. The reading comprehension issues on this forum are surprisingly bad.
The VC's Spack Force 5 127	Posted - 2013.03.25 22:51:00 - [34] - Quote Asmodai Xodai wrote: Inkarr Hashur wrote: Lasers have high base DPS and high base range. Not really. They don't particularly stand out when compared with other weapon systems (railguns = best range, blasters = best dps, etc). Their only "standout" feature seems to be that you can switch ammo in 1 second vs. 10 seconds. Quote: For lasers the idea was to give them a disability of lots of cap use. As to what was meant to be the strength of lasers I do not know. Hybrids got dps (and in the case of rails range), projectiles got alpha and ac range projection through falloff. Not sure what was meant to be the strengths of lasers. This. Hmm... reading comprehension. You are correct, rails have the best range and blasters have the best damage. That's not what he said though. He said they have high dps and high range (especially Scorch for a short range weapon), and if you are comparing rails to lasers, what they lose in range they gain in tracking. Lasers provide a good balance between range, tracking and dps and while they will always be beaten on one of those facets, that combination makes them very solid. Hitting out past 20km with 400 dps at optimal (good hit quality) is actually a pretty good trick to have and unlike other weapon systems, being able to switch to high damage ammo when the opportunity arises is another good trick to have. So is never having to reload and be sat taking damage without being able to dish it back. It all comes at a cost and that is PG and cap. Amarr may have the biggest cap reserves but with lasers they are still not enough. The Maller is a fleet slugger supreme but usually cant undock with out a cap booster. A point/web/prop Maller will cap out before it kills anything. The Omen is in an even worse shape because the ROF bonus is more draining than the Maller's straight damage bonus and as a fast cruiser it often does need point/web/prop. It's the only choice of the two for solo work. It fights a more mobile fight, shield tanked it is hitting out to 30km and with drones and Scorch is pushing out close to 550, good hit quality, dps, MWD running as it tries to kite it's mark. Believe everyone in this thread when they say it needs a cap usage bonus. Even with good cap skills you still have your work cut out for you.
Georgina Parmala Science and Trade Institute Caldari State 24	Posted - 2013.03.25 23:41:00 - [35] - Quote Asmodai Xodai wrote: Kahega Amielden wrote: You only think it's crappy because you don't view cap use as a meaningful problem .... Of course cap is a meaningful problem, as is any ship system. I just don't consider it a good 'bonus' to actually be able to fit my racial weapon, because every other race gets that 'bonus' for free. The fact that CCP has been removing this sort of 'bonus' for Amarr ships tends to support what I'm saying. Quote: You acknowledge the inherent downsides of lasers but refuse to realize that they have inherent upsides relative to other weapon systems as well. I have acknowledged upsides - for instance the ability to switch crystals in about a second. The reading comprehension issues on this forum are surprisingly bad. Actually, it's a real bonus and this has been sort of explained already. You just shrugged it off then complain about reading comprehension of others. Take a deep breath and relax. You seem pretty wound up. Each turret has innate problems that make it a not-great idea to cross race fit to another hull in a general case. Their own hulls are then bonused to make up for those shortcomings. Lasers suck cap, that's for sure. But Pulse lasers hit out to ~24 km very effectively. This is a very important number, as that is (generally) the maximum range at which you can stop your target from warping away by using a warp disruptor - which also takes a LOT of cap to run. Blasters and autocannons will do significantly lower damage at that range. This is where Lasers shine. Likewise Multi/Conflag on a laser boat with Medium pulses will hit effectively out to 8-9K - this is warp scrambler range (stops warp and microwarp). Even when you can't control range to take offensive advantage of this, it means if someone is stopping you from warping away you can (almost) always shoot back at them. And very effectively at that. That's the strength of lasers. Autocannons always shoot deep into falloff. You will see ranges like 1km optimal + 15km falloff. Sure that means they still hit pretty well out to 16km, but will do half damage at 16km and somewhat negligible beyond 21Km or so. That's why you see them bonused with damage AND tracking. To compensate the built in weakness of shooting into falloff doing reduced damage compared to the listed paper dps on the fitting screen - you only really do that much dps at blaster range. Blasters have high base damage and tracking, but you get ranges like 2km optimal +6km falloff. Half damage at scramble (multifrequency) range. 6+8 with long range ammo - can't even hit someone at disruptor (scorch) range at all. You have to be right in the target's face to hit them for that high listed damage. That's why Gallente boats have lots of mids to hold the target in place and blaster boats have range or tracking bonuses. Short range also means you are in range of cap neutralizers, which lasers can outrange with scorch. This means sometimes despite hybrids costing less to fire, they can be easier to cap out. So.. Projectiles use no cap and little power grif, but do little effective damage beyond real close range on an unbonused ship Hybrids have good damage but real low range and still cost cap Lasers have good mid-range damage but will kill your cap on a non-Amarr boat without the better base cap and laser cap use bonus
Kahega Amielden Rifterlings Point Blank Alliance 682	Posted - 2013.03.26 00:15:00 - [36] - Quote Quote: Of course cap is a meaningful problem, as is any ship system. I just don't consider it a good 'bonus' to actually be able to fit my racial weapon, because every other race gets that 'bonus' for free. So? Projectiles and missiles have absolute **** for base damage and so Minmatar hulls and Caldari hulls get more damage bonuses to bring them up to par with blasters and lasers. Blasters don't have enough base tracking to be really usable at their range (unlike all other weapon systems) which is why Gallente blaster hulls generally get tracking bonuses.
Asmodai Xodai Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire 29	Posted - 2013.03.26 00:24:00 - [37] - Quote The VC's wrote: Lasers provide a good balance between range, tracking and dps and while they will always be beaten on one of those facets, that combination makes them very solid. Yes, I get that, and have always gotten that. I've read extensively on all the different weapon systems, and their different strengths/weaknesses. Lasers have strengths, and they have weaknesses. Which has been my point all along - they aren't superweapons, they aren't OP compared to anything else, they are just another racial weapon system with different strengths/weaknesses than the other racial weapon systems. And that's what I would expect. Some people hate lasers (I'm talking well-respected veteran PvP types). Some love them. Some are in the middle. I've gone back years in the forum posts and read up. There was a time when Amarr was essentially considered a crap race, their ships considered crap ships, and their laser weapons considered crap weapons. Back then everyone played Caldari, and missles were seen as king. And even today, Amarr has less players than the other races. The point is simply that there is no 'fact' which states that lasers are the best, because everybody out there has a different opinion. My opinion was essentially what you stated above - they have strengths and weaknesses just like everything else out there. My issue, which I keep repeating over and over again, is that they don't seem to be treated by the devs as simply another weeapon system out there with strengths and weaknesses. The devs seem to think that it's some kind of reward to be able to fit these things, and thus force a ship to use up a bonus to make them easier to fit. That might be fine if lasers were OP, or 'the best.' But they aren't, and there's nobody on these forums that can make that claim without having others who are just as knowledgeable and well-respected and elite/veteran claiming the opposite. I'm not disputing any of the features of lasers you, or anyone else has covered. And I appreciate you going over all of this. We are talking past each other. I 'hear' what you are saying. You and others aren't 'hearing' what I'm saying, possibly because you guys are laser aficionados. Quote: Believe everyone in this thread when they say it needs a cap usage bonus. Even with good cap skills you still have your work cut out for you. That's just it. I haven't disputed that Amarr ships need such bonuses at all. What I've said is, it sucks that the devs have to use up a bonus on a ship to help players fit these things, when other races seem to get to fit their weapons 'for free.' In effect, I'm saying that it sucks that the lasers drain so much cap that they are difficult if not impossible to fit. They aren't better than anything else, so why are they singled out? The point is, if Amarr ships really need this cap usage bonus (which I've never disputed), then perhaps that points to an issue with lasers and balance. Perhaps laser cap usage needs to be adjusted - that's my point. That's always been my point. I've basically had no other point but that. Anything else I've stated was probably stated to support that point. What I'm saying seems to be supported by the balance changes I've seen in lasers and Amarr ships over the years. It seems that the devs realize what I'm saying, and have been making small changes here and there.
Taoist Dragon The Church of Awesome 309	Posted - 2013.03.26 00:38:00 - [38] - Quote Asmodai Xodai wrote: Said lots of stuff about not listening then demonstrates he own point perfectly This is another example of you not reading what the other players are saying and taking it onboard. If laser ships got another bonus instead of cap usage (ROF, Damage, tracking or range) then the entire laser range would have to be nerfed to balance them out again. Lasers have two main disadvantage tracking (for pulse) and cap usage. This balances them out when fitted to racial ship types. For example you may well say buff the cap regen on amarr boats (some have had that done) and give them another bonus to lasers. This then makes it very viable to swap to a less cap intensive weapon system (hybrids, projectile etc) and use that extra cap regen for ewar or tanking. this then kills off the 'flavour' or amarr being tanky laser users. All the racial ships have bonus' that assist in minimising the drawbacks of a weapon system. removing the cap bonus from amarr ships and redcuing the cap usage of lasers is like saying lets remove the range bonus from caldari and increase all base ranges for hybrids......no..just no. That is the Way, the Tao. Balance is everything.
The VC's Spack Force 5 127	Posted - 2013.03.26 00:54:00 - [39] - Quote Try to spend some time observing a laser heavy fleet fight. There will be some in FW and you can always pop over to RvB space and watch Mallers online. When you see how well a fleet of laser boats slap the living pish out of anything within range in a coordinated attack you will see how truly potent lasers can be. They're great on gatecamps too. Amarr aren't a solo friendly race but they excel in fleets. Nothing gets it's dps down like a laser. Nothing can adapt it's range like a laser. Missiles come close but they never have the same facemelt. There isn't a cruiser better adapted to close fleet brawling than the maller. Lasers have a high running cost because of the sheer volume of space that they can dominate.
Aralieus Shadowbane Syndicate 86	Posted - 2013.03.26 01:37:00 - [40] - Quote I would like to see the cap bonus replaced with a tracking one, then lasers will truly shine. Fleet or solo work. Oderint Dum Metuant

Georgina Parmala Science and Trade Institute Caldari State 26	Posted - 2013.03.26 01:43:00 - [41] - Quote You mentioned you can't fit a full rack of guns. With lower skills you should be using the focused lasers, not the heavies. You may also need to put a smaller armor plate on. As far as the ship bonuses: Thorax Gallente Cruiser skill bonus per level: 5% bonus to Medium Hybrid Turret damage 7.5% bonus to Medium Hybrid Turret tracking speed This is not a damage bonus. This is a usability bonus like cap cost. It just lets you actually HIT the target at your optimal range of 4 KM and the high transversal you will see at that range. Stabber Minmatar Cruiser skill bonus per level: 5% bonus to Medium Projectile Turret firing speed 7.5% bonus to Medium Projectile Turret falloff The falloff bonus is not a range or damage bonus. It's a usability bonus like the Amarr cap cost. It just lets you actually do meaningful damage beyond 5km, where you would have trouble hitting smaller targets because of transversal. It also has a rate of fire bonus instead of damage (33% dps instead of 25), because of the slow rate of fire of artillery and low dps of projectiles. Moa Caldari Cruiser skill bonus per level: 5% bonus to Medium Hybrid Turret damage 5% bonus to shield resistances It has a tank bonus meaning it will have the same problem the Thorax otherwise would without the usability bonus. But the tank bonus lets it fit a tracking computer or web in a mid slot instead of another shield tank module, because of the shield resist bonus. Again this functions as a "usability bonus", it's just not as obvious as "your capacitor heavy guns cost half capacitor". Just like the Maller having an armor bonus instead of cap cost reduction. But forcing you to fit a Cap Booster if you want to actually be able to shoot long enough to kill something while running a Microwarp drive.
Asmodai Xodai Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire 29	Posted - 2013.03.26 02:55:00 - [42] - Quote I keep hearing that I'm not listening or don't want to listen or whatever. If I gave that impression, it was unintentional. I am listening, and everything that has been said has been taken to heart and appreciated. Most of it has been stuff I already basically knew, i.e. "this turret is good at this and bad at that," but it's still all appreciated regardless. The thought is what counts, and people just want to help. Thanks. I will try to explain the fundamental issue with cap usage bonuses as I understand it, and as I have heard explained by hotshot veterans who have been PvP'ing and FleetVFleet'ing for years (doesn't mean they are right, just means they know enough to actually have an opinion). This will be somewhat simplified to get the point across - reality has more messy details, more variables, etc. Tradeoffs with these weapons chiefly revolve around a sliding scale that trades one thing for another. For instance, range vs. damage. It is a scale with range all the way on one side, and damage on the other side. If you slide one way, you are increasing range but decreasing damage. If you slide the other way, the opposite happens. This is "self balancing" in that boosting one thing sacrifices the other, so it's already "balanced" so to speak, and needs no further adjustment. An example here would be railguns. The slider is adjusted all the way to one side (range). So the damage sacrifice has already been made - it needs no further sacrifice or penalty. Another example would be blasters. The slider is adjusted all the way to the other side (damage). So the range sacrifice has already been made. It needs no further sacrifice or penalty. Now on to lasers. On the range/damage slider, it is about midway give or take. Fine - the tradeoffs, again - have already occurred, as it gets mid-grade damage but also mid-grade range. So why are there FURTHER tradeoff to be had? Why must there be some additional penalty to fit and actually use the thing? It would make sense if the weapon was 'OP' or better than other weapons but it isn't - it is simply another weapon with pluses and minuses. That was the point. Now, I'm just a noob, but I've heard other experienced veteran types discussing this. If this point of view is wrong - fine, I accept that. My only point is, this is where I was coming from in this thread. I wasn't trying to state something controversial - I had no idea anything I said would be. And again, if this point of view is wrong, fine, I accept that. It is really no skin off my nose either way.
Inkarr Hashur Sine Nobilitatis 291	Posted - 2013.03.26 03:17:00 - [43] - Quote You compare short range weapons to short range weapons, and you compare long range weapons to long range weapons. From this standpoint, things are simplified. Specifically, that lasers don't have mid damage and mid range. Pulses have unbeatable range and projection, and in damage they are certainly closer to blasters than they are to AC. Beams have the best DPS of sniping guns. Bar none. End of story. As for range, they match optimal with the artillery cannons. Artys get more falloff beyond that optimal, and that's cool. Whatever. And when you're talking about long distances like that, having more or having less range kind of stops mattering so much.
Georgina Parmala Science and Trade Institute Caldari State 27	Posted - 2013.03.26 04:10:00 - [44] - Quote You're thinking of it a little too two dimensionally. It's not just range and damage. They all have further tradeoffs, not just lasers. In a group fight, Blaster boats have to not shoot for considerable time and burn lots of cap running a Microwarp getting from target to target. It's actually cap intensive in a real fight for them to apply damage. The DPS is high, but the DPS TIME is lower. The capacitor cost is also high, it just comes from the Microwarp scrambler and webs, not the guns themselves. As mentioned before they also can't hit a moving target very well at that intended close range without a tracking boost. So while the paper dps is high, the applied damage is often not. Lasers have longer reach so they don't need to burn from one target to another, at least not nearly as much. They will use up less capacitor on propulsion and more on guns. But they'll have even worse trouble tracking a really close target. Projectiles cost no capacitor. Their ships also have worse base capacitor. Their optimal might say 1km, but they will not actually hit a moving target 1km away. They shoot into falloff for reduced damage and need hull bonuses for that damage to be respectable. Otherwise everyone would just fit projectiles with their no cap and low power costs. Projectiles can shoot at Scorch range for low damage, or use capacitor on propulsion to get in a more favorable position to do better damage. They use this as well as their damage type selection to put themselves in a relative position where they do better applied damage than their opponent. As I mentioned before, part of why Lasers are strong is also exactly where on the damage/range scale they fall. The damage is optimized at the edge of range of warp disruptors/scramblers. Part of why excessive cap cost is a fitting draw back, is what is involved in taking advantage of this. Running your MWD and Warp Disruptor on the target while holding 20-22km range. Trying to do armor reps, while attractive since you "range tank" lots of the incoming damage, just adds to the Cap strain. In some ways, lasers would be too good otherwise.
Asmodai Xodai Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire 29	Posted - 2013.03.26 04:17:00 - [45] - Quote Georgina Parmala wrote: You're thinking of it a little too two dimensionally. It's not just range and damage. They all have further tradeoffs.... Well I said that I gave an oversimplified view in order to get the point across, and that in the real world it is more complicated than what I described. So is it your and Inkarr Hashur's belief that this over-goodness of lasers is why they have the fitting requirements that they have, and that they would be OP without the cap/power restrictions?
Georgina Parmala Science and Trade Institute Caldari State 27	Posted - 2013.03.26 17:17:00 - [46] - Quote In short, yes. Since other guns can't match their damage projection out to warp disruptor range, they need a way to catch a kiting laser boat and apply their own damage. There are two ways this happens. One is that most Amarr ships are flying bricks - that you then slap on a 1600mm cinder block to. Other ships, in particular Minmatar, will run them down. The other way is to simply not let the laser boat have enough cap to kill a ship it's own size while running MWD+Warp Disruptor+Guns. At least not without sacrificing something to fit for the cap supply, or using a boat that is bonused for that task instead of something else. Making the guns cost more is a logical choice. Here's a quick look at the damage you can expect at 20km from one, unbonused, short range, medium sized weapon Heavy Pulse, Scorch - 33dps @ 23+5km 425mm Auto, Fleet EMP - 5 DPS @ 20km 425mm Auto, Barrage (10sec reload) - 13dps @ 20km Heavy Neutron Blaster, Null - 5dps @ 20km Heavy Assault Missile, Javelin - 19dps @ 20km Heavy Assault Missile, Javelin, target Microwarping away at 2km/s - 0dps @ >19km Rapid Light Missile Launcher, Fury - 24dps @ 20km (max effective range vs 2km/s target moving away) Note I used 20km for the other weapons where scorch hits for close to that number to 24.5 km. This is because at 23-24km most of the other weapons drop to near-0 dps (but so does the warp disruptor, letting the target slip away). Scorch sure looks too strong without extra drawbacks (and usability bonuses to the others) if you can maintain that engagement range, doesn't it? As Inkarr said you compare Pulse lasers to Blasters and Autos, and Beams to Rails and Artillery. Pulse Lasers are not mid range, mid damage. They are high range, medium-high damage. You can't bring long range weapons into that mix and say "well fit rails instead of blasters". Then the laser boat, using short range pulse weapons, will (try to) come in too close for the rails to hit and switch to multifrequency. Long range weapons also have different uses. Having a range of more than 25-30 km means you can't stop the target from warping away without another player holding them down. At that point, whether you are 80 or 180 km away doesn't make (as much of) a difference.
Liang Nuren Heretic Army Atrocitas 3231	Posted - 2013.03.26 17:21:00 - [47] - Quote Asmodai Xodai wrote: Georgina Parmala wrote: You're thinking of it a little too two dimensionally. It's not just range and damage. They all have further tradeoffs.... Well I said that I gave an oversimplified view in order to get the point across, and that in the real world it is more complicated than what I described. So is it your and Inkarr Hashur's belief that this over-goodness of lasers is why they have the fitting requirements that they have, and that they would be OP without the cap/power restrictions? Lasers are arguably OP with the cap and power restrictions. -Liang Normally on 5:00 -> 9-10:00 Eve (Aus TZ?) Blog: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com PVP Videos: http://www.youtube.com/user/LiangNuren/videos Twitter: http://twitter.com/LiangNuren
Invisusira The Rising Stars Initiative Mercenaries 140	Posted - 2013.03.26 17:51:00 - [48] - Quote Taoist Dragon wrote: Omen Cos it looks way better than the maller. what WHAT Core Skills - train em up train em up!
Aralieus Shadowbane Syndicate 87	Posted - 2013.03.26 18:53:00 - [49] - Quote Invisusira wrote: Taoist Dragon wrote: Omen Cos it looks way better than the maller. what WHAT I have to agree here, Omen is smexy Oderint Dum Metuant
Taoist Dragon The Church of Awesome 311	Posted - 2013.03.26 20:52:00 - [50] - Quote Invisusira wrote: Taoist Dragon wrote: Omen Cos it looks way better than the maller. what WHAT It does. its that simple! That is the Way, the Tao. Balance is everything.

Asmodai Xodai Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire 30	Posted - 2013.03.27 00:28:00 - [51] - Quote Well I must say, I've never heard praise of lasers before this thread. Ever. Seriously. Everything I've ever heard before puts them down. Most people say to fit artillery or whatever. I thought I was making a mistake by sticking with Amarr ships at all, but that's what my initial training was in, so .... (I hear a lot of hate on hybrids too). Anyway, thanks for the analysis. Good info.
Georgina Parmala Science and Trade Institute Caldari State 29	Posted - 2013.03.27 00:45:00 - [52] - Quote The right tool for the right job. In time, you will probably train them all. Just play to your strengths. Artillery is awesome, when you have a fleet of 800 Maelstroms focusing fire on one target. Instantly exploding whatever target they lock on to, with the huge front load damage. Blasters are awesome - if you're fighting in a very small group on top of a wormhole. Where everyone is within 5-10km range and no one has interest in moving away from it, because they want to jump to escape/chase.
Invisusira The Rising Stars Initiative Mercenaries 144	Posted - 2013.03.28 13:40:00 - [53] - Quote Taoist Dragon wrote: Invisusira wrote: Taoist Dragon wrote: Omen Cos it looks way better than the maller. what WHAT It does. its that simple! http://www.modenstudios.com/randombullshit/bert_car.gif Core Skills - train em up train em up!
Templar Dane Amarrian Vengeance 24eme Legion Etrangere 56	Posted - 2013.03.28 14:00:00 - [54] - Quote Liang Nuren wrote: Asmodai Xodai wrote: Georgina Parmala wrote: You're thinking of it a little too two dimensionally. It's not just range and damage. They all have further tradeoffs.... Well I said that I gave an oversimplified view in order to get the point across, and that in the real world it is more complicated than what I described. So is it your and Inkarr Hashur's belief that this over-goodness of lasers is why they have the fitting requirements that they have, and that they would be OP without the cap/power restrictions? Lasers are arguably OP with the cap and power restrictions. -Liang Ed: But the most happy fun lovable kind of OP. Not the dirty nasty kind of OP that blasters have up close or the horrible cap free damage type selecting OP that projectiles have. (I really do love my lasers though) There's always the laser hulls themselves. While many of the ships are getting away from the obligatory cap usage bonus, they're still midslot gimped and thus brawling is where you typically don't want to be. fake edit: And don't forget about the hidden + holy damage stat.
Asmodai Xodai Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire 30	Posted - 2013.03.29 04:55:00 - [55] - Quote Templar Dane wrote: And don't forget about the hidden + holy damage stat. Explain.
Major Killz 159	Posted - 2013.03.29 07:57:00 - [56] - Quote Vexor or Arbitraitor to be honest.
Oska Rus Solar Storm Insidious Empire 11	Posted - 2013.03.29 10:08:00 - [57] - Quote I was thinking about omen as pocket armageddon and maler as pocket abaddon because they have similar bonuses. MAller can have shitload of EFP when armour fitted but no mobility sou you would have to make enemy come to you.
AyayaPanda 15 Minute Outliers Novus Dominatum 21	Posted - 2013.03.29 19:59:00 - [58] - Quote Let's assume both ships gonna fit MWD. Omen need a PG rig, maller don't. Assume you have amarr cruiser V, controlled burst V, and perfect cap supporting skill, and you fit navy multi in your FMPL IIs Everything on including the MWD: Omen will cap out in 2m20s Maller will cap out in 1m20s MWD off (everything else is on) Omen will be cap stable at 83% Maller will cap out in 8m30s I think most maller fits need a cap booster, that leaves only one mid slot for tackling. But omen will sure have cap issues in any prolonged fight if you don't fit a cap booster i.e. MWD on for ze 50km rush, and turn around crushing the gate; or break the logi chain... etc. omen can fit 4 medium drones (or 5 smaller warrior II plus three web/ecm/armor rep small drones), maller can only fit 3 small drones. That's leaves you to decide whether you want to have more (utility) drones, or a better tank.
Gitanmaxx 24th Imperial Crusade Amarr Empire 90	Posted - 2013.03.29 21:21:00 - [59] - Quote Yes amarr need a wasted bonus slot just to be able to shoot their racial weapon and even then it caps out quickly. Excuse: cause it has the second highest dame. Well yeah, but it also has awful tracking. Projectiles have the highest falloff but no one says "wait, they should be painful to fit because one of their attributes is the highest!" no in fact they have no cap use at all. The whole cap thing with lasers is in my opinion a left over from a different time in eve that is a horrible balance mechanic for a weapon system that doesn't need it anymore since every other weapon system has been buffed through the years.
Asmodai Xodai Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire 31	Posted - 2013.03.29 23:12:00 - [60] - Quote Gitanmaxx wrote: Yes amarr need a wasted bonus slot just to be able to shoot their racial weapon and even then it caps out quickly. Excuse: cause it has the second highest dame. Well yeah, but it also has awful tracking. Projectiles have the highest falloff but no one says "wait, they should be painful to fit because one of their attributes is the highest!" no in fact they have no cap use at all. The whole cap thing with lasers is in my opinion a left over from a different time in eve that is a horrible balance mechanic for a weapon system that doesn't need it anymore since every other weapon system has been buffed through the years. This is what I was getting at previously, but most seemed to disagree with my point. At this point I don't know what is correct, but at any rate it is good to get a variety of opinions on the matter.



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