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Khatred
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Posted - 2005.08.31 23:06:00 -
[1]
I am interested in what's your opinion regarding what is and what is not "grief play" in Eve. And I don't mean piracy or pvp, just those actions that the only thing they bring is an evil grin on the face of the one doing them.
Examples:
Sniping a capsule in a non-pvp situation. I can understand scrambling of a capsule and the destruction that follows when the victim refuses to pay, also in pvp podding is even more important because it can send the enemy many jumps away, plus that it might hurt it's wallet. But sniping a pod while gatecamping, what does it do besides grief to the victim?
Warping to a belt where mining is going on, make a can, drag the minerals from the miners can into yours, then pop the can. Miners that are not in a enemy corporation or macrominers.
Beats me why some have to play that way. It doesn't reward you in game in any way, you can get the title of "bad guy" just by blowing ships.
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Ange1
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Posted - 2005.08.31 23:12:00 -
[2]
Some people collect corpses as trophies. I know I do.
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CEO of The Establishment |
Khatred
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Posted - 2005.08.31 23:14:00 -
[3]
 Originally by: Ange1
Some people collect corpses as trophies. I know I do.
I can understand that, but what trophie is the corpse of a 5 days old noob?
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juduzz
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Posted - 2005.08.31 23:15:00 -
[4]
Originally by: Khatred
I am interested in what's your opinion regarding what is and what is not "grief play" in Eve. And I don't mean piracy or pvp, just those actions that the only thing they bring is an evil grin on the face of the one doing them.
Examples:
Sniping a capsule in a non-pvp situation. I can understand scrambling of a capsule and the destruction that follows when the victim refuses to pay, also in pvp podding is even more important because it can send the enemy many jumps away, plus that it might hurt it's wallet. But sniping a pod while gatecamping, what does it do besides grief to the victim?
Warping to a belt where mining is going on, make a can, drag the minerals from the miners can into yours, then pop the can. Miners that are not in a enemy corporation or macrominers.
Beats me why some have to play that way. It doesn't reward you in game in any way, you can get the title of "bad guy" just by blowing ships.
Sniping: guessing removes them from the overview, and stops them smacking in local which is commen with piracy. Although sniping boring tbh so dont know why peeps do it.
the can popping yup TBH it is if it dont have a reason IMO.
----------------------------------------------
My vid(s)
http://www.eve-files.com/media/07/VIDSKIE.wmv |
Noriath
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Posted - 2005.08.31 23:15:00 -
[5]
Griefplay is exactly what the word means, doing something that causes other people grief. It's essentially trying to make someone else quit playing the game by making it as hard as possible for them to enjoy their time playing it.
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Tar Ecthelion
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Posted - 2005.08.31 23:17:00 -
[6]
IMO, griefing is not gate camping, podding, ore stealing or the likes ... its purposefully aggravating someone in game, knowing that its causing him hurt out of game i.e. continous smack talk convos or mail, chasing a guy and podding him numerous times for no reason other that the "fun" of it etc.
.....
Modus Vivendi
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Jasmine Constantine
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Posted - 2005.08.31 23:18:00 -
[7]
I'm thinking pointless destruction/disruption that doesn't really benefit the person doing it and just annoys the person on the receiving end is probably "griefing". Your example about sniping noob capsules is close to the baseline. Difficult to rule on it automatically though, because once you get to the state that someone could potentially be asked to pay a toll to avoid getting pod-killed then its into the realms of piracy and not griefing.
I can't see any other alternative way of policing it from the current system of getting GM's to investigate though - needs a human mind to look at each case and reach a fair decision.
_________________
Shoot Tyrants - join Jericho Fraction! |
Necrologic
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Posted - 2005.08.31 23:21:00 -
[8]
Originally by: Tar Ecthelion
IMO, griefing is not gate camping, podding, ore stealing or the likes ... its purposefully aggravating someone in game, knowing that its causing him hurt out of game i.e. continous smack talk convos or mail, chasing a guy and podding him numerous times for no reason other that the "fun" of it etc.
Agreed. Greifing isn't a specific type of game play, greifing is an attitude. I know many of the so called greifers of this game, and i didn't find any of them to really be that offensive or mean spirited. They tend to be more open minded and focused on having fun. The real problem is the people who play with little or no perspective, and cannot understand the game or appreciate it in all it's aspects. They are the ones who are responsible for endless smack, etc etc. These people are the real greifers, but they feel totally justifed and are righteously angry because "that sniper podded me" etc. That sniper was just having fun.
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Necrologic
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Posted - 2005.08.31 23:22:00 -
[9]
Originally by: Jasmine Constantine
I'm thinking pointless destruction/disruption that doesn't really benefit the person doing it and just annoys the person on the receiving end is probably "griefing". Your example about sniping noob capsules is close to the baseline. Difficult to rule on it automatically though, because once you get to the state that someone could potentially be asked to pay a toll to avoid getting pod-killed then its into the realms of piracy and not griefing.
I can't see any other alternative way of policing it from the current system of getting GM's to investigate though - needs a human mind to look at each case and reach a fair decision.
This is true, but personally i start giggling like mad when sniping capsules. I do not really consider myself a greifer, as i don't do it to hurt the people i'm killing. I can't exactly say why, but i know it's not because of that.
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Dark Shikari
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Posted - 2005.08.31 23:26:00 -
[10]
Griefing means doing something with NO OTHER REASON, other than causing grief to someone.
For example, a war often isn't grief, because the purpose is to damage the other side's fighting ability, not to cause grief. Just because it causes grief doesn't make it griefing.
Podding isn't usually griefing--most pirates I know do it because it stops the player from smacktalking. Also ransoming pods is a nice income source.
An old analogy I had is that the pirate takes your ore, but the griefer pops the can.
--
Proud member of the [23].
Selling Capital Cargo Bays and Kernite Mining Crystal IIs, cheaper than anyone else. |
Galk
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Posted - 2005.08.31 23:53:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Jasmine Constantine
I can't see any other alternative way of policing it from the current system of getting GM's to investigate though - needs a human mind to look at each case and reach a fair decision.
Ofcourse though, the gm's are forced to work within a parameter.
There isn't much of a fine line involved realy, they are set within the rules. It is unfortunate realy, whats clear and set is there, gm's will act upon in....
Reaching fair decision is virtualy imposable based on what people say, how can the human mind decide when you can't look the person in the eye.
Dangerous waters jade, gm's should never be allowed to go there.
--------
23
Arguing that namechanging would promote griefing is somewhat moot given the current FFA on that front.
'Danton Marcellus'
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Olympa Matar
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Posted - 2005.08.31 23:54:00 -
[12]
If someone was to ask me: "Olympia Matar, have you been griefed?" ...
I would say "Define griefing."
That someone would then say "But that is futile you silly girl, answer the question!".
To which I would promptly respond: "But my good man, wouldn't it be better if we just talked about the weather?"
..............................................................
** IMPORTANT NOTICE - SPEED UP YOUR EVE **
PRINT THIS MESSAGE OUT, WRITE YOUR USERNAME AND PASSWORD ON IT
AND SEND IT TO A MAILBOX IN A FOREIGN COUNTRY. YOU MIGHT WIN
A FREE 30-DAY ADDON TO YOUR ACCOUNT AND A FREE BLACKBIRD*
..............................................................
*To claim the blackbird you'll need the original message you
sent.
That's grief ... or is it?
...
now
Iam
gon
na
tal
in
a
bo
x
------ |
Khatred
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Posted - 2005.09.01 00:19:00 -
[13]
Originally by: Necrologic
Originally by: Jasmine Constantine
I'm thinking pointless destruction/disruption that doesn't really benefit the person doing it and just annoys the person on the receiving end is probably "griefing". Your example about sniping noob capsules is close to the baseline. Difficult to rule on it automatically though, because once you get to the state that someone could potentially be asked to pay a toll to avoid getting pod-killed then its into the realms of piracy and not griefing.
I can't see any other alternative way of policing it from the current system of getting GM's to investigate though - needs a human mind to look at each case and reach a fair decision.
This is true, but personally i start giggling like mad when sniping capsules. I do not really consider myself a greifer, as i don't do it to hurt the people i'm killing. I can't exactly say why, but i know it's not because of that.
Necrologic, that IMO is griefing because you said it yourself, you don't know why you do it  but I am sure you are aware it's causing the said person a loss.
I mean come on, take a lvl 3 kill mission in deadspace with lots of buildings, those building go "pop" much nicer than a capsule 
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Necrologic
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Posted - 2005.09.01 00:30:00 -
[14]
Edited by: Necrologic on 01/09/2005 00:30:00
Originally by: Khatred
Originally by: Necrologic
Originally by: Jasmine Constantine
I'm thinking pointless destruction/disruption that doesn't really benefit the person doing it and just annoys the person on the receiving end is probably "griefing". Your example about sniping noob capsules is close to the baseline. Difficult to rule on it automatically though, because once you get to the state that someone could potentially be asked to pay a toll to avoid getting pod-killed then its into the realms of piracy and not griefing.
I can't see any other alternative way of policing it from the current system of getting GM's to investigate though - needs a human mind to look at each case and reach a fair decision.
This is true, but personally i start giggling like mad when sniping capsules. I do not really consider myself a greifer, as i don't do it to hurt the people i'm killing. I can't exactly say why, but i know it's not because of that.
Necrologic, that IMO is griefing because you said it yourself, you don't know why you do it but I am sure you are aware it's causing the said person a loss.
I mean come on, take a lvl 3 kill mission in deadspace with lots of buildings, those building go "pop" much nicer than a capsule
What i do causes greif, but i dont' do it out of malice. Greifing is causing greif because you enjoy causing greif, not do something you enjoy and as a side effect causing greif. It's the same thing but for a different reason, which is why i think you cannot accuratly judge people on greifing or not. Intention is too huge a part of it. I'm not trying to justify the greif i cause, i'm just trying to bring around alittle more understanding.
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Jex Jast
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Posted - 2005.09.01 00:40:00 -
[15]
Griefing is, as everyone has said, causing grief just for that purpose. So...
piracy is not grief.
pirating the same person a lot is not grief, it can be a useful tactic for bankrupting an enemy and corps.
chasing someone across the board to get a bounty is not grief.
chasing someone across the board to kill them is not grief.
chasing someone across the board and killing them many times, then still chasing them, is grief. you can kill anyone else too, so unless there's profit it is grief. it's different from chasing and killing once because they are just "your target" for that "hunt" you could say.
sending hate mail to a person who podded/attacked you is not grief but it's dumb.
sending hate mail to someone for no reason, especially multiple hate mails, is grief.
sicking your friends, corpmates, and anyone else who will listen to you on a player solely to destroy that player completely is grief.
any questions or debates, feel free. this is solely my opinion and I'll explain why for any one of them
_____________________________________________
Kills: 0
Repeats: 0
Bounties Collected...you guessed it.
Gotta get these numbers off the ground. |
Sergeant Spot
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Posted - 2005.09.01 00:40:00 -
[16]
Those who play for a "challenge" of defeating a meaningful opponent, or accoplishing something against meaningful opposition/risk are not griefing, even when they cause grief.
Those who do things because they think its fun to stir up and anger other random players are griefing (the griefer always has some excuse, all of which are lame bs...). If they limit themselves to 0.4 and below, war enemies, etc for such harrassment, its respectable griefing.
There is big overlap in the above, and plenty of room for the worst sort of griefers to pretend to be respectable gamers, but the bottom line is that the unrespectable griefers play NOT for a challenge (they avoid actual challenges), they play to harrass.
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Gwyneth
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Posted - 2005.09.01 00:43:00 -
[17]
Quote:
just those actions that the only thing they bring is an evil grin on the face of the one doing them.
First of all, this is a foolish assumption. Evil grin != griefplaying player
The last time I check all grief is measured from the suffering party, not the "evildoer".
Someone sniping a pod will not experience any grief at all.
Someone popping a can for a mining party does not experience any grief.
The fact is that in EVE you are ALLOWED and you CAN snipe a player, you CAN and are ALLOWED to pop a can for a mining party.
You CAN and are ALLOWED to rob a corp blind.
Both, under all normal circumstances, cause grief for the suffering party. But this is expected grief. This is possible and allowed under the game mechanics.
So, what am I trying to say?
There is nothing that can be called grief in EVE, only variable degrees of vulnerable and easily annoyed players.
Just locate your block option, think before you act and you will not suffer grief  (right... heh) 
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Khatred
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Posted - 2005.09.01 00:47:00 -
[18]
I was not questioning if it's allowed or not. Obviously most scenarios are allowed.
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theRaptor
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Posted - 2005.09.01 00:59:00 -
[19]
Originally by: Gwyneth
There is nothing that can be called grief in EVE, only variable degrees of vulnerable and easily annoyed players.
Yes there is. Continued harrasment will general get the GM's to step in with ban sticks. You can pretty much do anything to anybody once. Its when you do naughty things to them often that GM's take action.
That is not dead which can eternal lie,
And with strange aeons even death may die.
-- Ancient "Dirt" Religious figure. |
Gwyneth
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Posted - 2005.09.01 01:04:00 -
[20]
Originally by: Khatred
I was not questioning if it's allowed or not. Obviously most scenarios are allowed.
I¦m sorry for not putting this clearer. It is allowed within the frame of the game. Thus, the grief that might be generated is his. I.e. he FEELS that someone did him wrong, wich the griefer might have done according to the sufferes standards and views. But those views and standards are HIS, not the person¦s that performs the grief-creating action.
I think that it all boils down to morals and ethics, just like "out there" (whatever that is this RL...)
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Gwyneth
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Posted - 2005.09.01 01:10:00 -
[21]
Edited by: Gwyneth on 01/09/2005 01:12:03
Originally by: theRaptor
Originally by: Gwyneth
There is nothing that can be called grief in EVE, only variable degrees of vulnerable and easily annoyed players.
Yes there is. Continued harrasment will general get the GM's to step in with ban sticks. You can pretty much do anything to anybody once. Its when you do naughty things to them often that GM's take action.
I don¦t agree that harrasment is the same as "causing grief". And those naughty things... what can they be? (just to satisfy my curiosity)
Harrassing someone is to (among other things) insault them personally, often (I believe) using out-of-game refrences to do so. Ramming someones ship can hardly be called harrassment (IMO). At that point we are no longer working within the game frame and thus all talk becomes void (if I understand the author of the thread he is talking about INGAME griefing). But saying to someone that his character has ugly hair or if flying an ugly ship is just his opinion, it might annoy the "sufferer" and perhaps be called harrassment but I doubt it.
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Graelyn
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Posted - 2005.09.01 03:38:00 -
[22]
Originally by: theRaptor
Originally by: Gwyneth
There is nothing that can be called grief in EVE, only variable degrees of vulnerable and easily annoyed players.
Yes there is. Continued harrasment will general get the GM's to step in with ban sticks. You can pretty much do anything to anybody once. Its when you do naughty things to them often that GM's take action.
Yup, but until that threshold is reached, it's legal and even a bit encouraged. This is for good reason. Adapt. Learn to live with it. You can't just coast along and gain power in EVE, sometimes you must fight for it.
Not your average Amarrian Loyalist....
CEO - The Aeternus Crusade |
Noriath
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Posted - 2005.09.01 04:17:00 -
[23]
One of the main components to griefplay is that it's always happening to someone who is powerless to stop it.
Griefplayer is in a sense synonymous with Bully, they never pick on anyone who can fight back - that's really what pushes legitimate PvP over the border to griefing.
If it's a situation where some times you win and some times you lose, losing still hurts, but its not griefing, it's a competition where losing is part of the game.
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Deja Thoris
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Posted - 2005.09.01 04:47:00 -
[24]
Griefing is not selling me a t2 ship bpo cheap
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Galk
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Posted - 2005.09.01 05:01:00 -
[25]
Originally by: Jex Jast
sicking your friends, corpmates, and anyone else who will listen to you on a player solely to destroy that player completely is grief.
Nope, according to ccp when that happens, they actualy take action against the person being destroyed
Ofcourse you can protest, state the rules/eula ect....
But they won't acknowledge their own rules, all you get back are generic answers, even though there are/were clear violations.
--------
23
Arguing that namechanging would promote griefing is somewhat moot given the current FFA on that front.
'Danton Marcellus'
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Ghoest
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Posted - 2005.09.01 05:08:00 -
[26]
I like the way most people dont use stupid words like "greifer" in EvE.
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dantes inferno
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Posted - 2005.09.01 06:03:00 -
[27]
i would define griefing as actions taken for no other reason than the players enjoyment at causing the target player grief out of game (i.e hounding said target just to kill him over and over, cause u enjoy the fact its spoliing the game for him and no other reson)
_____
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Andrue
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Posted - 2005.09.01 08:12:00 -
[28]
Grief play has to be more than just a one of 'nasty' action. Grief play is about deliberately trying to make the game so unpleasant for someone that they quit. For most normal people that would take a sustained, targetted program of action.
Getting you capsule sniped by some saddo just because they can is not griefing. It's lame (IMO) but valid game mechanics.
--
(Battle hardened miner)
[Brackley, UK]
WARNING:This post may contain large doses of reality. |
Andrue
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Posted - 2005.09.01 08:16:00 -
[29]
Originally by: Necrologic
What i do causes greif, but i dont' do it out of malice.
And there we perhaps have an example of a character flaw. You excuse your actions because of the way you feel. Griefing is defined by the victim not the perpetrator. It's the victim who suffers and if you keep making them suffer then it's griefing. Your feelings in the matter are irrelevant. 
--
(Battle hardened miner)
[Brackley, UK]
WARNING:This post may contain large doses of reality. |
Rod Blaine
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Posted - 2005.09.01 08:35:00 -
[30]
Edited by: Rod Blaine on 01/09/2005 08:36:15
Originally by: Andrue
Originally by: Necrologic
What i do causes greif, but i dont' do it out of malice.
And there we perhaps have an example of a character flaw. You excuse your actions because of the way you feel. Griefing is defined by the victim not the perpetrator. It's the victim who suffers and if you keep making them suffer then it's griefing. Your feelings in the matter are irrelevant.
Nope.
IN Eve this does not work. It would turn all pvp'ers in Eve into griefers because of the standards of some of their victims. Eve has rules, those rules represent it's (lack of) moral standards. Those rules are what define wether something is causing (illegitimate) grief or not, not the feeling of the victim.
_______________________________________________
Yes yes, blogging is passÚ I know.
Rod's Ramblingz on Eve-Online
Solutions to your issues. |
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