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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 23 post(s) |
Chessur
Life of lively full life thx to shield battery
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Posted - 2013.03.27 03:30:00 -
[1] - Quote
This is hilarious. Now the RLM cerb / caracal are basically unstoppable. In-fact with these changes, HMLs may again become king. If my drake / caracal / cerb / cyclone can now sit at 28K and have nothing but heavy fall off from guns, then dropping tank mods for TP's will be very viable- thus making up for HML short comings.
You know i was concerned with the missile changes at first (i didn't have any gun skills) but now I am glad I didn't waste much time traning into turrets.
CCP why is it your desire to destroy nano / kiting ships? You had relegated it down to a select few ships, but now you have basically booted most of those ships away. Turret based cruisers that are not the zealot are now unplayable.
As for all of the winmatards need dat nerf- have you ever looked at EFT? Do you realize that even with out the nerf most cruiser based minni ships (minus sleip) have horrible damage application at 24/28 k? Hurricane was never that good, and it certainly wasn't during the time of the drake.
CCP do you even play this game? |
Chessur
Life of lively full life thx to shield battery
45
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Posted - 2013.03.27 04:00:00 -
[2] - Quote
Here are some EFT numbers for you for damage application at 28K.
All level 5 skills, no implants, no drugs, no heat.
Minni
Hurricane 2TE 2Gyro Barrage: 228 DPS
Cynabal 2TE 2Gyro Barrage: 270 DPS
Stabber 2TE 2Gyro Barrage: 166 DPS
Vaga 2TE 2Gyro Barrage: 277 DPS
Nado 2TE 2Gyro Barrage: 581 DPS
Amarr
Omen: 2TE 2Heat Sink Scorch: 330 DPS
Harb 2TE 2Heat Sink Scorch: 445 DPS
Zealot 2TE 2Heat Sink Scorch: 412 DPS
Omen Navy 2TE 2Heat Sink Scorch: 395 DPS
Oracle 2TE 2Heat Sink Scorch: 649 DPS
Gal (Only one ship reaches out this far with guns that are actually usable... ie blasters)
Talos 2TE 2Mag Stab Null: 678 DPS
Now for the lulzy part: Caldari
Caracal 2BCS with Fury rapid light missile: 236 DPS
Cerberus 2BCS with Scourge Fury rapid light missile: 296 DPS
I will not include any HML because on paper damage is not nearly close to applied damage.
If any one at ccp can understand simple tables, you will notice one thing- giving any of these ships a decrease in optimal or fall off will make everything turn into a brawl. 33% decrease on range for these numbers will make kiting nearly impossible unless you are flying an oracle or zealot. (missile ships excluded)
Why do you hate kiting? Unless you fly a pimped out nado or talos, your pick of cruisers is so limited already. With the proposed changes, you will make almost all turret based ships that are not large size obsoleate, and HMLs / RLMs will rule the sky. Hell even SB's using torps will be viable now. Nothing is going to be hitting them out at 24K anyway.
Please justify this CCP. You clearly have not looked at any of these numbers. Because if you have looked at the these numbers and did still come to the conclusion to nerf TE's asnwer me this-
Why are armor brawling ships becoming the only mode to play this game?
Shockingly not every one that goes out to pvp likes to hit F1 and brawl (or in the case of solo / small gang) get blobbed. |
Chessur
Life of lively full life thx to shield battery
45
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Posted - 2013.03.27 04:12:00 -
[3] - Quote
James Amril-Kesh wrote:It's easy to use EFT to find out the effect this would have because the current meta 0 tracking enhancer is the same as the proposed T2 TE would be after the change (as far as the optimal and falloff bonuses are concerned).
With the SFI for example, the damage isn't exactly spectacular - with 3 T2 gyrostabs and 2 T2 TEs it gets 330 DPS with o/f of 3.9/30 with barrage. This amounts to 250 DPS at a typical kiting range of 20 km. With the nerf this gets reduced to an even more anemic 180 DPS. By comparison an Omen without any range mods at all and a single T2 heatsink gets 250 DPS at 24 km with scorch on HPLs.
No drugs, no heat, no implants all level 5 skills 28K
SFI 2TE 2Gyro gets (with 425mm ) : 151 DPS
SFI 2TE 2Gyro gets (with 220 Vulcan) : 122 DPS
Your numbers are way way off. SFI has no fall off bonues, and any sfi that can fit anything is not fit with 425's. Also you can't really kite at 20K. Sure if you are fighting just one or two ships, but normally you will not be at that range.... ever. Unless you have an absolutely amazing tank.
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Chessur
Life of lively full life thx to shield battery
45
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Posted - 2013.03.27 04:19:00 -
[4] - Quote
Rroff wrote:Chessur wrote:Here are some EFT numbers for you for damage application at 28K.
All level 5 skills, no implants, no drugs, no heat.
Minni
Hurricane 2TE 2Gyro Barrage: 228 DPS
Cynabal 2TE 2Gyro Barrage: 270 DPS
Stabber 2TE 2Gyro Barrage: 166 DPS
Vaga 2TE 2Gyro Barrage: 277 DPS
Nado 2TE 2Gyro Barrage: 581 DPS
Amarr
Omen: 2TE 2Heat Sink Scorch: 330 DPS
Harb 2TE 2Heat Sink Scorch: 445 DPS
Zealot 2TE 2Heat Sink Scorch: 412 DPS
Omen Navy 2TE 2Heat Sink Scorch: 395 DPS
Oracle 2TE 2Heat Sink Scorch: 649 DPS
Gal (Only one ship reaches out this far with guns that are actually usable... ie blasters)
Talos 2TE 2Mag Stab Null: 678 DPS
Now for the lulzy part: Caldari
Caracal 2BCS with Fury rapid light missile: 236 DPS
Cerberus 2BCS with Scourge Fury rapid light missile: 296 DPS
I will not include any HML because on paper damage is not nearly close to applied damage.
If any one at ccp can understand simple tables, you will notice one thing- giving any of these ships a decrease in optimal or fall off will make everything turn into a brawl. 33% decrease on range for these numbers will make kiting nearly impossible unless you are flying an oracle or zealot. (missile ships excluded)
Why do you hate kiting? Unless you fly a pimped out nado or talos, your pick of cruisers is so limited already. With the proposed changes, you will make almost all turret based ships that are not large size obsoleate, and HMLs / RLMs will rule the sky. Hell even SB's using torps will be viable now. Nothing is going to be hitting them out at 24K anyway.
Please justify this CCP. You clearly have not looked at any of these numbers. Because if you have looked at the these numbers and did still come to the conclusion to nerf TE's asnwer me this-
Why are armor brawling ships becoming the only mode to play this game?
Shockingly not every one that goes out to pvp likes to hit F1 and brawl (or in the case of solo / small gang) get blobbed. I get the feeling someones been blatted too many times by navy apocs, sniper rail rokhs and kiting tier3s and completely forgot the effect this has on small and medium sized weapons on many setups - for instance dual T2 TEs on blaster boats with the 10% per level falloff bonus like the diemos have a role (mostly anti-tackle) and/or for fighting outnumbered that this change will affect quite heavily.
you have no idea what your talking about. If you are seriously trying to justify using rail / beam ships for kiting.... Then you don't understand kiting. A kiting ship would not be readily killed by either of those two weapon systems. You need to do some math... Then go play more eve PvP
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Chessur
Life of lively full life thx to shield battery
45
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Posted - 2013.03.27 04:28:00 -
[5] - Quote
Rroff wrote:Chessur wrote:
you have no idea what your talking about. If you are seriously trying to justify using rail / beam ships for kiting.... Then you don't understand kiting. A kiting ship would not be readily killed by either of those two weapon systems. You need to do some math... Then go play more eve PvP
Where was I talking about using rail/beam for kiting? tho to be fair my comment was a little off as many of the common fits for those setups use TCs more readily than TEs tho there are TE versions of many of those fits especially kiting tier3s.
Kiting t3's use TEs pluse short range guns. As for blaster boats, no other ship outside of the talos / adrestia can use blasters to kite.
It seems that people are getting confused with the word kite. Perhaps a better word would be projection. A kiting sheep needs projection to at least 28K to be able to do much. While many gall ships do have some falloff bonus, kiting inside scram / web or less than 20K is really not kiting in the true sense. At those ranges you will be torn to shreds by an enemy gangs dps.
Sorry for the confusion |
Chessur
Life of lively full life thx to shield battery
45
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Posted - 2013.03.27 04:40:00 -
[6] - Quote
Show me any fit that a gallente boat with blasters other than talos / adrestia (that is also sub BS size) can use to kite, and i will give you a cake. |
Chessur
Life of lively full life thx to shield battery
45
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Posted - 2013.03.27 05:10:00 -
[7] - Quote
Rroff wrote:Quote:
[Proteus, example]
Damage Control II
Federation Navy Magnetic Field Stabilizer
Federation Navy Magnetic Field Stabilizer
Tracking Enhancer II
Tracking Enhancer II
Nanofiber Internal Structure II
Nanofiber Internal Structure II
Republic Fleet Large Shield Extender
Republic Fleet Large Shield Extender
Corelum C-Type 10MN Microwarpdrive
True Sansha Warp Scrambler
Heavy Neutron Blaster II, Null M
Heavy Neutron Blaster II, Null M
Heavy Neutron Blaster II, Null M
Heavy Neutron Blaster II, Null M
Heavy Neutron Blaster II, Null M
Medium Anti-EM Screen Reinforcer II
Medium Anti-EM Screen Reinforcer II
Medium Core Defense Field Extender II
Proteus Defensive - Augmented Plating
Proteus Electronics - Friction Extension Processor
Proteus Engineering - Capacitor Regeneration Matrix
Proteus Offensive - Hybrid Propulsion Armature
Proteus Propulsion - Localized Injectors
Warrior II x5
Warrior II x5
Hornet EC-300 x5
Just an example fit theres many variations on this fit possible depending on skill level and what you want from it (i.e. change the cap regen sub-system to supplemental for overload bonus). Load it up with snakes, gunnery implants, skirmish links, etc. and you have a very expensive cynabal that (until now) had the suprise factor (clocks up almost 6km/s + turns on a dime) and the choice of 30km scram or 80km point. If you have the skills to fly it lighter tanked you can get some pretty nasty levels of damage projection to.
right,,,, your dps is abysmal.
20K 343 DPS
30K 175 DPS
Considering the amount of money you are pouring into this thing- the only useful part is the scram. Everything else (for the price) is very sub par. Explain to me how DPS like that is going to be effective? Especially for the cost? Why would you ever want to fly this on a regular basis? |
Chessur
Life of lively full life thx to shield battery
49
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Posted - 2013.03.27 21:59:00 -
[8] - Quote
Michael Harari wrote:Alxea wrote:More face to face battles yay! I hate when people kite... Grow some balls and fight within scram web range I say!  Your entire kb is camping gates and killing frigates with a sebo legion
Ohh snap! Shots fired.
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Chessur
Life of lively full life thx to shield battery
59
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Posted - 2013.04.24 23:16:00 -
[9] - Quote
CCP Thanks to the new EFT- i have done some number crunching for you and present to you some interesting results.
Ships shown are level 5 skilled. No drugs, no heat, no implants. 2 gyros and 2 TE's are used with barrage. The dps shown is damage applied at 28K (Or around kiting ranges) The use of the word kiting in my semantics is this:
Kiting is flying well out of web / scram range. Kiting is a range greater than 24K.
hurricane
Old TE: 226 DPS
New TE: 178 DPS
Cynabal
Old TE: 264 DPS
New TE: 236 DPS
Vagabond:
Old TE: 242 DPS
New TE: 211 DPS
'New' Stabber
Old TE: 157 DPS
New TE: 137 DPS
'New' Hurricane Fleet issue
Old TE: 233 DPS
New TE: 185 DPS
As a joke: RLM Caracal 2 BCS, lv 5 skills no heat, Fury lights
DPS: 236 (Yes a t1 cruiser on par with a cynbal, and beating out every other minmitar ships at kiting range.) CCP Was this your intention?
Why are you doing this to projectile guns CCP? AAs the power creep with EHP increases in ships- using an auto cannon based weapon system to kite is becoming pointless. We are looking at abysmal dps. The lack of projection is what was already hurting minmitar ships, this will compound it more.
The stabber has always been useless. And with the TE nerf will continue to be. The new hurricane and hurricane fleet issue struggle with projection currently, and this nerf puts them in the grave.
When we look at the 'quintessential' kiting ship the vaga- again the damage is beyond anemic. The cynabal has passable damage, but its still nothing great. 236 DPS takes some time to chew through the EHP monsters that one can create with T1 cruisers.
Those ships are also going to be taking a huge drop in projected damage. Why? With the DPS you are giving the class now, they simply will not stand a chance. Please explain yourself CCP? Minmitar ships have been hurting since the days of the nano drake. Why the projection reduction? You realize that with this change, RLM missiles, and t2 pulse lasers (of any size) are going to rule?
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Chessur
Life of lively full life thx to shield battery
60
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Posted - 2013.04.25 02:35:00 -
[10] - Quote
Minmitar are not OP. I just don't understand it. Sure dual neut auto cane was ok as a bralwer (sometimes) but then the nano drake came. Since that point, hurricanes (and all other minmitar ships) are suffering massively from projection issues. Minny BC's don't have amazing tanks, and compared to blasters don't have the damage for up close brawling. The minni cruisers are even worse. Stabber does no damage no matter how you fit it, and it can't kite- because it does less damage than an LML condor. The bellicose is passable.... but again this is a missile ship.
So you have the vagabond, and cynabal. The cynabal is expensive, and the vaga (as shown in my other tables) gets out damaged by a light missile caracal.
So CCP, why do you hate minmitar and kiting in general?
Are you happy with all minmitar ships that are not missile based, being forced to brawl? |
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Chessur
Life of lively full life thx to shield battery
61
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Posted - 2013.04.25 14:12:00 -
[11] - Quote
Jezza McWaffle wrote:At above.
I kite with 440 dps Ruptures that have more EHP than most Omens. Its really easy to kite with autocanns provided brain cells when fitting are used.
Im sorry 440 DPS ruptures? Doesn't exist.
Rupture, lv 5 skills, 2 gyro, 2 TE, barrage. No heat, no implants, no drugs damage projection listed at ranges:
Rupture damage (old te's)
20K: 217 DPS
24K: 188 DPS
28K: 155 DPS
Rupture damage (new TE's)
20K: 196 DPS
24K: 155 DPS
28K: 116 DPS
So where is this 440 dps? I don't see it. Its really impossible to kite with ruptures in the first place. you should use some brain cells and look at the ship bonus. I Don't see any projection bonus do you? Also A shield rupture fully shield fit, with DCU is only pushing out about 27K ehp. Way less than an armor tanked omen.
Use some brain cells before posting next time. |
Chessur
Life of lively full life thx to shield battery
62
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Posted - 2013.04.25 18:10:00 -
[12] - Quote
Streya Jormagdnir wrote:So awhile back I asked the devs how they intend for turret-using T1 "attack" frigates to kite in light of the TE nerf. At the time I suggested CCP buff the "long range" small turrets such as beams and artillery, specifically in the area of tracking. In order to see how viable such an approach would be, I began experimenting with an artillery Slasher, and this is what I've found:
Even with the tracking bonus and Depleted Uranium ammo (which gives even more tracking), you simply move too fast and out-track your guns when fighting other frigates at longpoint range. When fighting a Rifter I found I had to manually reduce my speed down to roughly 1.5 km/s, which you can obtain by using an AB rather than MWD. This makes you perilously easy to get slingshotted, however, so I also found myself using an overheated web and keeping a close eye on the target's distance. Not only that, but with Domination Depleted Uranium ammo loaded the ship simply doesn't do a lot of DPS. While I did end up killing the Rifter, this was probably only because it was piloted by a relatively new pilot and had meta mods fit.
So I recorded my artillery's tracking speed and went to work with a beam-kite Executioner, and looking at the numbers it would suffer the exact same problem. The conclusion? Long-range small turrets have too poor of tracking to keep up with the recently buffed T1 "attack" frigates' speed. And this is why we see more Condors engaging in high-speed kite fits and no other "attack" frigates doing the same.
CCP, aren't you concerned with how very easy it is to kite in a Condor but not in a Slasher, Executioner, or Atron? Why can only one race's T1 "attack" frigates engage in longpoint kiting with such ease?
The problem with turrets in general- is this:
Long range turrets are simply not viable for small gang / solo pvp. The tracking and fitting is just so bad that your weapon system becomes unplayable. That is where short range turrets come in. They have the tracking to still be effective- and with old TE's could still be some what usable when applying damage.
Personally I think that CCP needs to introduce three turrets for each race. A 'short range' a 'medium range' and 'long range'
Currently the medium range turrets are simply bastardized versions of the short range. So much of a ships fitting room is poured into making a short range turret that is effective at a medium range. CCP should take a step back from extremes ie. blaster / rail and auto / arty and create some type of middile ground. This would help small gang and solo players, as well as possibly making more ships viable / playable will different fitting styles. |
Chessur
Life of lively full life thx to shield battery
68
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Posted - 2013.05.01 20:55:00 -
[13] - Quote
Streya Jormagdnir wrote:Chessur wrote:
The problem with turrets in general- is this:
Long range turrets are simply not viable for small gang / solo pvp. The tracking and fitting is just so bad that your weapon system becomes unplayable. That is where short range turrets come in. They have the tracking to still be effective- and with old TE's could still be some what usable when applying damage.
Personally I think that CCP needs to introduce three turrets for each race. A 'short range' a 'medium range' and 'long range'
Currently the medium range turrets are simply bastardized versions of the short range. So much of a ships fitting room is poured into making a short range turret that is effective at a medium range. CCP should take a step back from extremes ie. blaster / rail and auto / arty and create some type of middile ground. This would help small gang and solo players, as well as possibly making more ships viable / playable will different fitting styles.
See, I have no problem using up most of my fitting to slap on "medium" range turrets, since I fly faster kite ships which tend not to have tank anyway. The problem I'm seeing with this nerf is that now we'll be forced to either snipe outside of point range OR brawl, at least if you fly solo. Solo is already hard enough, which is why so many solo PvPers tend towards kiting so they can always disengage when the blob starts coming. With this TE nerf things will be a bit more difficult; I won't say "solo/smallgang PvP will die" because missiles are completely and entirely unaffected by this nerf as well as TDs, but why should solo/smallgang PvPers be forced to use only missiles to be effective? If I had to suggest anything, yes CCP go ahead and nerf TEs, but allow them to be scripted like TCs to retain some performance. And for the love of all that is pixelated please look over the imbalance in performance between turrets and missiles. While it is true that missiles are not often found in huge fleets because they take time to reach a target, they are amazing in smaller fleets or for solo since one need not worry about their tracking or range being TD'd.
I fly a ton of small gang / solo as well. Kiting is really the only way to play if you have any hope of surviving the blob. We all know eve is PvPPPPPPPP. I don't have a problem flying lightly tanked kiting setups, but I do have a problem when the lightly tanked setups- even with tons of mods to help with damage and projection... Still cannot project or apply damage in any meaningful way. I agree with your post 100% RLM missiles are the wave of the future for solo / small gang. ECM and recons are just so punishing to the small gang / solo having a weapon system that can disregards ECM, TD's, and damps is nice. THe only turrets worth while for solo / small gang is large autos, blasters, pulse, or medium pulse. That is likerally it. There is no weapon system + hull combination that makes any other medium gun superior to pulse, and medium blasters have no range.
The reason when I feel so strongly about the proposed TE nerf- is the fact that you are now flying under an unbonused TD. Damage is becoming anemic, and a single unbonused TD used against the new TE"s are going to shut you down so completely- things are just going to get stupid. As you stated- either fit useless long range weapon systesm (rail, arty, beam) and fail to track anything- or brawl. And we all know what happens when you brawl, you get blobbed, ECM'd and dead in 10 seconds.
CCP please do not nerf TE's as a round about way of fixing mini ships. They are already bad- because autos already struggle to project any type of damage in the first place. |
Chessur
Life of lively full life thx to shield battery
137
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Posted - 2013.07.27 18:33:00 -
[14] - Quote
The TE nerf never should have happened. Minni ships have not been 'OP' for years. Medium AC's are a horrible weapon system even before the TE nerf. The Vaga / Stabber / Cynabal / Cane all have HORRIBLE projection outside of 20K. The vaga / stabber in particular still have anemic DPS even with the hull falloff bonus.
The TE nerf also hurt gallente badly. Talos / Demios / Shield rax got hit really hard with the TE nerf and while the demios / thorax could kite just outside scram, are now forced inside when using blasters. Talos has to get even close to gangs, which considering its tank and lack luster speed is not something that it wants to do.
The TE nerf changed so many ships, and hit them very hard. It had had some effect on large turrets (however it did not cripple them like it did for MED). I have no idea why CCP wanted to nerf TE's. It seemed that the change was out of the blue. If CCP actually thinks that minni are OP, and the TE nerf was to bring them back in line- then they are many years late. Minmitar have not had a more powerful lineup than other races for a long time. In the kiting world in particular every ship falls on its face when compared to others (Outside of the scythe fleet issue).
If CCP had in mind to tone down the tier 3 snipers, then they need to just look at Tier 3's in general. Tier3's are the most OP ship int he game currently. They have completely eclipsed so many other sips types and made them obsolete. Tier3's even after the 'nerf' are just as broken as they were from day one.
So with the re-sticky of this thread I am hopeful that CCP is going to realyl take a hard look at the numbers in regards to TE's and re-think what it is they are trying to accomplish. |
Chessur
Life of lively full life thx to shield battery
137
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Posted - 2013.07.27 19:44:00 -
[15] - Quote
Naomi Knight wrote:why nerf te? cause winmatard was everywhere
I really would disagree with this. Do you have any specific examples of OP minni ships in the last few years? |
Chessur
Life of lively full life thx to shield battery
137
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Posted - 2013.07.28 15:10:00 -
[16] - Quote
I feel that it would be a mistake to use eve top kill as a measuring stick to determine if a certain race was OP. Popularity doesn't mean OP. There is a big difference. You need to take into account what nul blocks were using as fleet doctrines at the time ext ext. If you can list for me specific examples as to why the minny ships were 'too good' I would like to hear about it. Because for years now they have been sub par for the most part.
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