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Sticky:[Odyssey] Module Rebalancing Part One: RSBs and TEs

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Author	Thread Statistics \| Show CCP posts - 23 post(s)
Ganthrithor GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation 492	Posted - 2013.03.27 02:01:00 - [1] - Quote My Gallente cruiser fits are not looking forward to this patch. Shield / blaster setups were already really borderline, they'll now be depressingly ineffective. Why do we want to skew the game towards "TOTAL COMMITMENT" type fits? Whats wrong with skirmishing?
Ganthrithor GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation 492	Posted - 2013.03.27 02:03:00 - [2] - Quote Hellakhanasos wrote: Venustas Blue wrote: If your fighting at 0, say in scram & Webb range to be doing affective damage, theres no way to disengage say if your off gate. Unless your ****** fit with stabs or possibly AB fit and able to burn out. The more powerful ship or better counter fit ship will always win. You will not have the ability granted to kiting ships to disengagde by either burning away, or causing the hostile to lose point by pulsing MWD on cross axis so they burn out of range & lose point, allowing you to warp out. There's little skill in fighting at 0 (scram/Webb) range, nerfing TEs kiting ability, wich is an art and skill its self would be yet another mistake by CCP, and a great loss as far as skill goes for the game. There is counters to kiting ships, & as far as minnie ships go, they have already been nerfed enough, dont ruin it by overstepping a reasonable current mark & success. This proposed change to TEs needs to be scrapped. All it would do is subject eve to yet a other nerf of making the game ever easier, this does not inspire anybody to become better within tactics and situational awareness, it only acts to dumb it down, even giving more reason to blob, and there should be no further reason given to blobbing WHAT SO EVER. Should be promoting skill and fun gfs instead. Sometimes it becomes very apparent CCP are out of touch with the game and its tactics, this is as good as any example. A resounding NO to TE nerf from me. After sifting through the turd of many prior posts over the last couple of pages. This is more of less spot on. Yeah basically this.
Ganthrithor GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation 493	Posted - 2013.03.27 02:31:00 - [3] - Quote Tonto Auri wrote: If the best post you can pick from a whole thread is a pile of words that noone is able to comprehend... May be you should consider your sanity? I you can't be bothered to read, we'd all prefer if you couldn't be bothered to post either.
Ganthrithor GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation 495	Posted - 2013.03.27 02:38:00 - [4] - Quote I don't really get the RSB nerf either. Guy guys we need a way to make burning back to gates easier. Because this game really needs to be more forgiving of pilot error.
Ganthrithor GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation 495	Posted - 2013.03.27 02:41:00 - [5] - Quote Basically you should probably go back to 2007 game balance, where webs were death, on-grid probing took long enough to allow sniping ships to work, and both kiting ships AND immobile, close-range death ships both worked. ...and people couldn't burn back to gates.
Ganthrithor GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation 495	Posted - 2013.03.27 02:44:00 - [6] - Quote Alexandra Vyvourant wrote: Ganthrithor wrote: I don't really get the RSB nerf either. Guy guys we need a way to make burning back to gates easier. Because this game really needs to be more forgiving of pilot error. yea, and let's be sure that you can't shoot anyone from too far either. we want everyone to pile on top of each other. we want all kiting ships to fight in scram range... wait. what..? Its imperative that they either fight inside scram/web range or don't do any damage outside it. Otherwise they could conceivably kill my armor-tanked gimmick Myrmidon if I engage like a moron without baiting them in first. That's no fun!
Ganthrithor GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation 498	Posted - 2013.03.27 03:19:00 - [7] - Quote Yeah everyone can agree that armor tanked ships were kind of stupid, and I think CCP were on the right track with the armor buffs (but didn't go far enough). The way to improve PvP / make formerly useless ships viable is to buff armor tanking, not run skirmish fits into the ground across the board. I'd rather see a buff to tracking computers (allowing immobile ships to project damage better) than a range nerf to kiting ships. Basically kiting is the EVE-equivalent of oversteer while driving cars (think drifting if you don't know what this means)-- tricky to get right, super rewarding when you do, and never gets old.
Ganthrithor GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation 503	Posted - 2013.03.27 04:36:00 - [8] - Quote Chessur wrote: As for blaster boats, no other ship outside of the talos / adrestia can use blasters to kite. Not true... now. The Deimos, Vigilant, and Proteus can do shield-tanked kiting blaster setups. They do a little less dps than ACs at longer ranges (~30+) but are otherwise alright. With this TE nerf though they'll be utter garbage again, just like they were before the null buffs.
Ganthrithor GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation 508	Posted - 2013.03.27 06:30:00 - [9] - Quote Sigras wrote: Casha Andven wrote: Ganthrithor wrote: Hellakhanasos wrote: Venustas Blue wrote: If your fighting at 0, say in scram & Webb range to be doing affective damage, theres no way to disengage say if your off gate. Unless your ****** fit with stabs or possibly AB fit and able to burn out. The more powerful ship or better counter fit ship will always win. You will not have the ability granted to kiting ships to disengagde by either burning away, or causing the hostile to lose point by pulsing MWD on cross axis so they burn out of range & lose point, allowing you to warp out. There's little skill in fighting at 0 (scram/Webb) range, nerfing TEs kiting ability, wich is an art and skill its self would be yet another mistake by CCP, and a great loss as far as skill goes for the game. There is counters to kiting ships, & as far as minnie ships go, they have already been nerfed enough, dont ruin it by overstepping a reasonable current mark & success. This proposed change to TEs needs to be scrapped. All it would do is subject eve to yet a other nerf of making the game ever easier, this does not inspire anybody to become better within tactics and situational awareness, it only acts to dumb it down, even giving more reason to blob, and there should be no further reason given to blobbing WHAT SO EVER. Should be promoting skill and fun gfs instead. Sometimes it becomes very apparent CCP are out of touch with the game and its tactics, this is as good as any example. A resounding NO to TE nerf from me. After sifting through the turd of many prior posts over the last couple of pages. This is more of less spot on. Yeah basically this. This. CCP you are dumbing down the game. May I ask why? Just a question . . . if kiting is "uber 1337 PvP for the skilled players" then doesnt making kiting harder raise the skill required to pull it off? You can't kite if you can't project damage at all. Then it's just called "running away."
Ganthrithor GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation 525	Posted - 2013.03.27 15:27:00 - [10] - Quote Dez Affinity wrote: People are overreacting this isn't the death of blasters~ kiters~ anything but missiles~ but this does seem to be an unnecessary or misdirected nerf. Like I said, its gonna make nano blaster cruisers depressingly bad (they're already really far into their falloff at ~24km as it is) and autocannon ships will just lose a little more of their already-mediocre damage at range. Any range decreases will hit blaster cruisers way more severely than other ships because of the shape of their DPS/range curves. Which is funny, because non-brawling blaster cruisers are already rare as ** and not overpowered at all. Also someone asked why people don't just fit railguns instead of blasters-- it's because railguns are (this is a technical term) **. Also, sigras-- the biggest reason people fit shield canes instead of armor canes has nothing to do with the benefits of getting your tracking/range mods from lowslots or high slots, it's that armor fits in general are bad for skirmishing because they're inflexible fits that require you to fully commit to basically any fight due to your lack of mobility. Shields (while providing a smaller overall tank and eating up the mids you'd ideally want to use for tracking computers, scrams, webs, sebos etc) aren't all-in setups, while armor ones are. That's why you see most people flying fits that are "inferior" in terms of on-paper tank, ewar and dps stats.

Ganthrithor GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation 526	Posted - 2013.03.27 15:38:00 - [11] - Quote Kagura Nikon wrote: As I tried to explain earlier, when blasters are used in the role of brawling not kiting (That was supposed to be their role) they loose almost nothing, only 1 extra second of travel to the target on the cruiser scale up to 4-5 seconds on a battleship. Not the end of the world, its a nerf , but not a CRIPPLING NERF I've read this sentence a couple of times and I'm still not quite sure what it means?
Ganthrithor GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation 526	Posted - 2013.03.27 15:43:00 - [12] - Quote Gizznitt Malikite wrote: Perhaps the middle ground is to change the Optimal-Falloffl range split.... Rather than 10-20... perhaps they should be 15-15... (granted, that would be a direct nerf to auto-cannons) I'm personally just really confused about the purpose of this nerf in general-- if the problem is not that shield / kiting ships are "too good" but that they're "too good relative to armor tanked ships," why not buff tracking computers so that ships without tracking enhancers can project damage better? Alternatively, they could just nerf autocannons directly if that's what they're so concerned about. v0v
Ganthrithor GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation 527	Posted - 2013.03.27 15:49:00 - [13] - Quote Kagura Nikon wrote: it measn that when eve was created blasters were not conceptualized as something you use to kite. You should rush into the opponent, grab him at very close range and over helm him if your superior dps. I mean ok, that's what CCP assumed when they dreamt up the weapon category, but then nobody used them outside lowsec gate-brawling BC/BS fits because for 90% of engagements the whole idea of point blank weapons on slow armor bricks is a terrible idea. I still contend that what CCP need to do to give Gallente a viable niche is to drop blaster range, re-orient their ships towards either shield tanking or armor tanking with a bonus that ~completely~ offsets the penalties of armor plates (either a bonus that does that explicitly or simply through great base speed / agility stats) and add a bonus to afterburner speed bonuses that lets them use an AB to hit MWD-like speeds. Point-blank weapons wouldn't be a massive problem if there was some possibility of disengaging. If you're just going to get scrammed and killed like any other chucklefuck though, then blasters are gonna need to be set up to be used like an autocannon-- from outside hard-tackle range-- if you want to see them used.
Ganthrithor GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation 527	Posted - 2013.03.27 17:15:00 - [14] - Quote Its just kind of silly to look at the game and say "kiting ships are super prevalent, it must be because they do too much damage" when the real reason has a lot more to do with how tackling works than kiting ships' amazing dps output (hint: it's pretty mediocre except for the Talos). I assume CCP Rise must be kil2? The fact that kil2 of all people would be pushing kiting nerfs just blows my mind... you'd think someone who'd had so many extremely close fights while flying kiting ships would appreciate how little room there is for error as it is.
Ganthrithor GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation 527	Posted - 2013.03.27 17:21:00 - [15] - Quote Mariner6 wrote: @CCP Rise: Don't get frustrated. A lot of people are comfortable in what they know and have come to enjoy it. Change can be painful for anyone. Just pull the salient points when they are made. That said..... So why kiting and thus all the complaints? I'm tracking on the frustration because having always been an armor brawler I recently have started trying it out because frankly I was getting tired of losing ships particularly when the gang is bigger, and if your armor you either win or lose. Rarely is there a GTFO option. And when roaming in Null its fun to be able to engage some groups even if they are bigger, particularly when your in a small corp. But the only way you can attack a big group is via kiting or very shiny ships, maybe bombs but you all get the point. So I started flying this Omen that one of my Corps mates recommended, at first I was very skeptical as it has only hull tank 10K EHP, but goes 2500m/s and puts out 343 DPS at 29+8.2 with lolscorch (perfect skills, no implants, no boosts.) [Omen, Man Tank] Damage Control II Heat Sink II Heat Sink II Tracking Enhancer II Tracking Enhancer II Overdrive Injector System II Experimental 10MN Microwarpdrive I Warp Disruptor II Small Electrochemical Capacitor Booster I, Navy Cap Booster 400 Heavy Pulse Laser II, Scorch M Heavy Pulse Laser II, Scorch M Heavy Pulse Laser II, Scorch M Heavy Pulse Laser II, Scorch M Heavy Pulse Laser II, Scorch M Medium Polycarbon Engine Housing I Medium Energy Collision Accelerator I Medium Auxiliary Thrusters I Hornet EC-300 x5 And you know what's funny, this cruiser with the least tank I've flow has been the most survivable ship I've ever flow. Now I've been into structure nearly every fight but I've killed plenty with it, attacked a wide range of targets and sized groups, and amazingly this gets out of more "should have died" events than I can believe. Its absolutely a blast. So not as good as Cynabal mind you, but pretty damn cheap to fly so you don't care if you lose it. And I find you really have to work on your manual piloting, manage your cap, stay in tune to everything going on. So its fun and can be used over a broader envelope of engagements you might find where as in most of my armor boats I have to be more choosy about what fights I take or not. So my point is that it makes some sense that CCP would want to tone this down some because it does seem a bit lop sided when an amarr kiting cruiser with zero tank outperforms an amarr armor cruiser for so many types of uses. Now that doesn't say there are not times and places where I still prefer armor depending on what your doing and what kind of fleet but for small gang work....well kiting is hard to beat. Summary: I guess the nerf is needed, but your going to get some tears CCP. I also think you'll need to take a look at ships now across the board that become now unbalanced due to this (ie the missle boats, definitely the Caracal) and maybe some gun boats that tend to kite will need a look at (like can they kill anything at all with lower dps defore they run out of CAP?) Even with the Nerf though, I guess my Favorite Omen will still be good. So tl;dr: kiting is an extremely engaging, tricky, and fun style of gameplay, while brawling is simplistic, deterministic, and frustrating. And your recommendation is that they nerf the fun thing so its not as viable of an option. Because more people should do the annoying, frustrating thing instead? Ok...
Ganthrithor GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation 527	Posted - 2013.03.27 17:34:00 - [16] - Quote Mariner6 wrote: I hear you man...Like I said I'm a bit ambivalent but I can see the need to bring the two a bit closer vice being miles apart. And even with these changes, I don't think its kills kiting. It just won't be quite as lopsided as it is now. I mean to be honest, it needs to hit sisi and test it some. But of course I've noticed that rarely does anything get put into sisi and despite thousands of suggestions does it result in anything, you know like medium rails. SiSi isn't for testing, its for familiarizing yourself with impending changes :\ Also most fighting on SiSi just isn't useful for evaluation unless you put together your own group of players for testing. Otherwise its just faggots sitting on the combat beacons with their faction battleships / gimmick fits waiting for you to engage them so they can warp in a a few carriers and kill you.
Ganthrithor GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation 527	Posted - 2013.03.27 17:49:00 - [17] - Quote Grath Telkin wrote: Ganthrithor wrote: So tl;dr: kiting is an extremely engaging, tricky, and fun style of gameplay, while brawling is simplistic, deterministic, and frustrating. And your recommendation is that they nerf the fun thing so its not as viable of an option. Because more people should do the annoying, frustrating thing instead? Ok... How very dramatic of you. Its hilarious to watch your posting sperge about how they're removing kiting set ups when thats not even close to whats happening. Do carry on though. I do bereave I said "makie it less viable" not "remove it." Which is exactly what they're doing. But please, continue to call me dramatic.
Ganthrithor GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation 527	Posted - 2013.03.27 18:02:00 - [18] - Quote Roime wrote: So keeping range in a faster ship is "tricky", and trying to catch them with a slower ship is "simple"? Ok. Being able to engage larger gangs, get kills and not die is not OP? Ok. Nano kiting blasters ships are not broken by design? Ok. It's pretty straightforward when you're fighting one other ship, but have you ever tried maintaining range from a whole bunch of things at once when they're coming at you at different speeds and from different directions? It's not so easy! Kiting ships are able to engage larger gangs, get kills and not die when the pilots in the opposing gang make mistakes. If they maneuver carefully / intelligently you can't really kill them. You have to let yourself be kited. Nano kiting blaster ships are absolutely not broken, I don't even know what your'e talking about (coincidentally I don't think you know either!). Blaster setups are generally slower than Minmatar cruisers, do less damage at range and have inferior tracking, so I'm not really sure what you're on about. There's a reason the only commonly-seen blaster kiter is the nano Talos...
Ganthrithor GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation 527	Posted - 2013.03.27 20:04:00 - [19] - Quote I want to know what Kovorix thinks about this. e: If he still plays this game :\
Ganthrithor GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation 527	Posted - 2013.03.27 20:12:00 - [20] - Quote Also Grath you can suck mah dilz with your "It's only a three percent decrease in DPS" bullshit. I just compared my blaster Proteus fit to a version using T1 TEs in EFT and it's a 20% decrease in applied DPS at 24km using Null. On a ship that only hits for 263 dps at 24km as it is. So yeah, the change does exactly what I was saying it would to kiting blaster cruisers-- totally eviscerates a ship that did mediocre damage to begin with. How ships like this are "problematic" under current mechanics is beyond me.

Ganthrithor GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation 527	Posted - 2013.03.27 20:19:00 - [21] - Quote Michael Harari wrote: Ganthrithor wrote: Also Grath you can suck mah dilz with your "It's only a three percent decrease in DPS" bullshit. I just compared my blaster Proteus fit to a version using T1 TEs in EFT and it's a 20% decrease in applied DPS at 24km using Null. On a ship that only hits for 263 dps at 24km as it is. So yeah, the change does exactly what I was saying it would to kiting blaster cruisers-- totally eviscerates a ship that did mediocre damage to begin with. How ships like this are "problematic" under current mechanics is beyond me. If you and Kil2 have a problem with the Talos (which is more understandable) then take it up with that hull. I'd prefer it if you'd leave the Deimos, Proteus, and Vigilant useable as shield ships. Its even worse on amarr ships Ironically it's an indirect buff to Minmatar ships, since their overall longer range means a Cynabal fit only loses ~20 DPS at 24km. Good thing all these publords are so excited about them "nerfing Winmatar" lol.
Ganthrithor GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation 527	Posted - 2013.03.27 20:48:00 - [22] - Quote Here's a thing: Three kiting cruisers using long range ammo, compared: http://i.imgur.com/TSSEdNe.jpg The two curves for each ship are current fit (T2 TE) vs post-nerf (simulated by substituting T2 TEs for T1). The green bar represents typical kiting ranges (20km at the inboard, 36km (overheated faction point range) at the outboard). Look how hard this nerf fucks blaster ships. Compared to any other turret setup. It's ridiculous. Scorch users lose nothing, AC fits lose ~6% dps, Heavy Neutrons + Null lose 20%... on the weapon system that did the least damage within this range envelope to begin with. The Proteus is worse off under current mechanics ANYWHERE outside 21km, and this nerf only increases the gap. Keep in mind that the engagement envelope is a cold hard fact that is not negotiable-- any closer and you start straying into overheated web range (and exploding). Any farther and you lose points on your target and they just sort of wander off. edit: None of those are outlandish / gimmick fits either. They're all things I currently have in my hangar and have flown personally.
Ganthrithor GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation 527	Posted - 2013.03.27 21:00:00 - [23] - Quote Vaju Enki wrote: Again, keep going strong with the great balance changes, you guys are making EvE a much better game. Players will actually use ships other than the few boring nano/shield ones. The nano facerollers tears are normal, the some thing happend with the speed nerf a few years ago, the facerollers don't like balance. Just ignore them, they are bias as hell. Yeah if only we could all honoure-duel on the 4-4 undock in our active tanked Vindicators like you no doubt do.
Ganthrithor GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation 527	Posted - 2013.03.27 21:13:00 - [24] - Quote Roime wrote: Ganthrithor wrote: Here's a thing: Three kiting cruisers using long range ammo, compared: http://i.imgur.com/TSSEdNe.jpg The two curves for each ship are current fit (T2 TE) vs post-nerf (simulated by substituting T2 TEs for T1). The green bar represents typical kiting ranges (20km at the inboard, 36km (overheated faction point range) at the outboard). Look how hard this nerf fucks blaster ships. Compared to any other turret setup. It's ridiculous. Scorch users lose nothing, AC fits lose ~6% dps, Heavy Neutrons + Null lose 20%... on the weapon system that did the least damage within this range envelope to begin with. The Proteus is worse off under current mechanics ANYWHERE outside 21km, and this nerf only increases the gap. Keep in mind that the engagement envelope is a cold hard fact that is not negotiable-- any closer and you start straying into overheated web range (and exploding). Any farther and you lose points on your target and they just sort of wander off. Kiting Proteus, that's cool. You fly it like the 1600mm plate torp Vaga? Why don't you come find out?
Ganthrithor GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation 527	Posted - 2013.03.27 21:36:00 - [25] - Quote Roime wrote: Ganthrithor wrote: Why don't you come find out? With bonuses it goes almost 3km/s, aligns in 5.5 seconds with the MWD on and it scrams to 30km with heat. Feel free to tell me all about how this makes it a terrible kiting ship. Medium blasters, and total reliance on hardwires and links. And dies to armor Proteus, which scrams as far but has a web and way more tank. Happy? Wow you're right it's useless, why didn't I consider any of this?
Ganthrithor GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation 527	Posted - 2013.03.27 21:41:00 - [26] - Quote Alxea wrote: More face to face battles yay! I hate when people kite... Grow some balls and fight within scram web range I say! ~sigh~
Ganthrithor GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation 543	Posted - 2013.03.28 20:31:00 - [27] - Quote Major Killz wrote: Adapt or die. Simple. - killz This forum desperately needs a feature where every time some highsec publord posts the words "adapt or die" they get struck by lightning IRL. Nice post-signing, bro.
Ganthrithor GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation 543	Posted - 2013.03.28 20:53:00 - [28] - Quote Major Killz wrote: - killz ZAP!