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changes in cruisers will make hvy missiles suck even more

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NI Reba	Posted - 2005.09.01 23:02:00 - [1] they are lowing the sig radius by a wide margin for all cruisers. This will make hvy cruisers dc like 30% less damage. Or am i missing something?
Antic	Posted - 2005.09.01 23:11:00 - [2] Not only will it affect heavy missiles. Cruise missiles will suffer from this also. Cruise was somewhat useful agaisnt cruisers before this as a versitile weapon that sacrificed damage towards battleships to have a better shot at cruisers. If they are to be an entirely BS to BS weapon then they are already outmatched by the torpedo in all areas. The extreme ranges of cruise isnt a bonus that outweigh this as its far outside lockrange anyway without sensor boosters. I think heavy and cruise missiles need their explosion radius tweaked in acordance to this.
Hoshi	Posted - 2005.09.01 23:19:00 - [3] Acctully they have all got a over the board 20% sig decrease which means 20% less damage from heavys and crusiers (in some cases where the ship was large enough to get 100% damage pre change it will be less for heavys if you have Guided missile precision at a high level).
Antic	Posted - 2005.09.01 23:25:00 - [4] you must take into account that to get any damage with cruise on cruisers before this change you have to have Guided missile precission at a high level. Of course we havent had the opurtunity to test this yet, but i fear that the 20% change will pull the sig radius over the treashhold that will decrease cruise damage towards cruisers from ok to unusable.
DerGurkenschaelor	Posted - 2005.09.02 01:13:00 - [5] Edited by: DerGurkenschaelor on 02/09/2005 01:13:20 Well but cruiser will also be even less likely to get hit now with turrets. Add to that the fact that missile users seem to use the imbalanced weapon disruptors very frequently, and the chance to score a hit on another cruiser with BS sized guns becomes ridiculously low. If you want to buff cruise missiles and heavies, nerf disruptors, or make them BS-sized modules.
O'Sirius	Posted - 2005.09.02 01:19:00 - [6] They doing this to cruisers only or BC's too?
Layrex	Posted - 2005.09.02 01:21:00 - [7] wtf? Are cpp flipping stupid? Missles users hurt cruisers alot less than they should already! ------------------------------
Idio T	Posted - 2005.09.02 02:00:00 - [8] Originally by: Layrex wtf? Are cpp flipping stupid? Missles users hurt cruisers alot less than they should already! Good Gravy. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- Frigate about it!
Jim Raynor	Posted - 2005.09.02 02:02:00 - [9] Unless they alter missiles a bit (I think velocity should be more a factor than sig radius), by changing the explosive radius......... missile users are screwed. Big time. Kind of used to it now though. ------ ROBBLE ROBBLE
SexySexy	Posted - 2005.09.02 02:07:00 - [10] Originally by: NI Reba they are lowing the sig radius by a wide margin for all cruisers. This will make hvy cruisers dc like 30% less damage. Or am i missing something? DO not use missiles. simple. CCP is removing missiles in eve.
Face Lifter	Posted - 2005.09.02 02:08:00 - [11] The changes you are talking about seem pretty big. Are they described in dev block? for something major like this, there's usually a dev post stickied in this forum So.. what the heck is going on?
Jim Raynor	Posted - 2005.09.02 02:10:00 - [12] Originally by: SexySexy Originally by: NI Reba they are lowing the sig radius by a wide margin for all cruisers. This will make hvy cruisers dc like 30% less damage. Or am i missing something? DO not use missiles. simple. CCP is removing missiles in eve. wow thats a very constructive comment thank you very much for you deep insights. ------ ROBBLE ROBBLE
Idio T	Posted - 2005.09.02 02:39:00 - [13] If this is global, I would think that it would effect all single target direct damage players out there equally. So perhaps, such a change would encourage longer fight times among cruisers and maybe help against single turn long range ganking ships. ( i.e Gate campers 60k away that one off frigates/cruisers trying to do level 1 missions. ) Just a thought. Frigate about it!
Rakh Eldan	Posted - 2005.09.02 02:52:00 - [14] You'll still get insta ganked by any decent sniper setup, be it a Tempest, Geddon or Mega. At long ranges, large turrets will still hit, and hit hard, even with a 20% reduction in sig radius or whatnot. All this will do is increase the difference in efficiency between missiles and turrets even more.
Jim Raynor	Posted - 2005.09.02 02:59:00 - [15] Originally by: Idio T If this is global, I would think that it would effect all single target direct damage players out there equally. So perhaps, such a change would encourage longer fight times among cruisers and maybe help against single turn long range ganking ships. ( i.e Gate campers 60k away that one off frigates/cruisers trying to do level 1 missions. ) Just a thought. this isnt exactly 'global' it effects missiles more because thier damage is much more dependant on sig radius a frigate standing still, will be hit by a turret, and be hit hard. a frigate standing still with a small sig radius can laugh at torpedoes all day long. huge difference in how sig radius factors for turrets vs missiles ------ ROBBLE ROBBLE
Darmed Khan	Posted - 2005.09.02 03:03:00 - [16] Originally by: NI Reba they are lowing the sig radius by a wide margin for all cruisers. This will make hvy cruisers dc like 30% less damage. Or am i missing something? If you're talking about the MK2 ships, then yes you are missing something. The stats aren't final yet, so there's no point jumping to conclusions about which ships will/won't suck once the changes are introduced.
Tar om	Posted - 2005.09.02 08:55:00 - [17] This will affect turrets as well, so less whining please. (and yes I have to use missiles too, I'm Minmatar) -- We are the Octavian Vanguard www.octavianvanguard.net http://www.serenitymovie.com
MacDuncan	Posted - 2005.09.02 09:47:00 - [18] Originally by: Jim Raynor Originally by: Idio T If this is global, I would think that it would effect all single target direct damage players out there equally. So perhaps, such a change would encourage longer fight times among cruisers and maybe help against single turn long range ganking ships. ( i.e Gate campers 60k away that one off frigates/cruisers trying to do level 1 missions. ) Just a thought. this isnt exactly 'global' it effects missiles more because thier damage is much more dependant on sig radius a frigate standing still, will be hit by a turret, and be hit hard. a frigate standing still with a small sig radius can laugh at torpedoes all day long. huge difference in how sig radius factors for turrets vs missiles /ironic on Quite often i experience those "standing still targets"...daily.. /ironic off To be honest: As a projectles using char it makes it also harder for my 1400s to instapop a cruiser 'cause of the tracking. But 'cause i'm also flying cruiser a lot at the moment, i can life with it! --
Antic	Posted - 2005.09.02 10:41:00 - [19] Originally by: Darmed Khan Originally by: NI Reba they are lowing the sig radius by a wide margin for all cruisers. This will make hvy cruisers dc like 30% less damage. Or am i missing something? If you're talking about the MK2 ships, then yes you are missing something. The stats aren't final yet, so there's no point jumping to conclusions about which ships will/won't suck once the changes are introduced. not only MK2 ships but all regular cruisers got a sig radius decrease. and a big one
Hephaesteus	Posted - 2005.09.02 10:43:00 - [20] But isn't there a new skill to balance out the changes?
Antic	Posted - 2005.09.02 10:46:00 - [21] Originally by: Hephaesteus But isn't there a new skill to balance out the changes? No. The skills you are thinking of were released a long time ago in the cold war patch. Heavy and cruise missiles do the damage they do to cruisers currently only if you have high levels in those skills especialy GNP. But now with this blanket reduction in sig radius on all cruisers there will be no skill that missile users can train to balance this one out. There the dilemma. This will mean a huge damage reduction overall for cruise and heavys, one you can not mod away.
Rex Martell	Posted - 2005.09.02 10:55:00 - [22] Missiles do not get any module that can help offset this change. turret ships can fit 1 [one] Tracking Computer II for a total negative effect to hit quality of 5%. Missiles will just have to soak up the total 20% negative effect. "The object of war is not to die for your corp, but to make the other b@##@#d die for his"
Franky B	Posted - 2005.09.02 11:01:00 - [23] where are the patch notes on these cruiser changes? and do they affect HAC's as well?
Antic	Posted - 2005.09.02 11:05:00 - [24] Originally by: Franky B where are the patch notes on these cruiser changes? and do they affect HAC's as well? Acording to the test server database it affects HACs aswell.
Azuriel Talloth	Posted - 2005.09.02 11:10:00 - [25] Ha! I was prepared for such an eventuality! Got a bunch of Amarr ship skillbooks in my hangar They look cooler anyway "Making no mistakes is what establishes the certainty of victory, for it means conquering an enemy that is already defeated."
MacDuncan	Posted - 2005.09.02 11:24:00 - [26] Originally by: Rex Martell Missiles do not get any module that can help offset this change. turret ships can fit 1 [one] Tracking Computer II for a total negative effect to hit quality of 5%. Missiles will just have to soak up the total 20% negative effect. Targetpainter won't work? --
nahtoh	Posted - 2005.09.02 11:39:00 - [27] Originally by: MacDuncan Originally by: Rex Martell Missiles do not get any module that can help offset this change. turret ships can fit 1 [one] Tracking Computer II for a total negative effect to hit quality of 5%. Missiles will just have to soak up the total 20% negative effect. Targetpainter won't work? It is already less effective for missiles than turrets... "I am not saying there should be capital punishment for stupidity, but why can`t we just take the safety labels off everything and let the problem solve itself" (credits to mcallister TCS)
Orvas Dren	Posted - 2005.09.02 13:44:00 - [28] Quote: Acording to the test server database it affects HACs aswell. I'm the one who pulled the data out of the test server and posted it here in the thread about MK2 ship changes as they are currently on Test. I have gone through ever bit of the ships looking for changes, ONLY the T1 and faction named T1 cruisers recieved the changes. NO HAC HAS A CHANGED AGILITY OR SIG RADIUS ON SISI! In fact, the HAC's still have 30% more than their T1 counterparts after this patch. At least as far as the database on SiSi is concerned. ALL of this data may be temporary. They are testing this for balance currently. In my opinion... Any who think CCP didn't know what this would do to heavy/cruise missles against cruisers are kidding themselves. CCP are not idiots, they knew from the beginning that this would do it. I think their intent for this is to make missle boats fit more than one kind of launcher across the top of their slots. A raven with 2 siege, 2 cruise, 2 assault, or something to that effect. However, I am not a missle user by design, so I do not know how that would act. Closest I get to missles is the occasional hardpoint on a Gallente ship. So take my opinion for whats its worth. =============================================== The Nest
Travel Girl	Posted - 2005.09.02 14:21:00 - [29] Edited by: Travel Girl on 02/09/2005 14:22:56 Originally by: NI Reba they are lowing the sig radius by a wide margin for all cruisers. This will make hvy cruisers dc like 30% less damage. Or am i missing something? What can I say :/ They should at least allow caldari ships to fit mining lasers in missile slots n give them a bonus on mining yield or something for they will be utterly useless. Yet another "balancing" change. Oh n guys stop whining just train the skills to lvl 100 n u should be ok if this change comes in ;)) N btw give caldari pilots a backgammon n chess playing bonus, cause thats all they ll be doing in Station bar. Nice on CCP. Btw its not 1st of April yet, so it not particulary funny reading this.
Antic	Posted - 2005.09.02 14:29:00 - [30] Originally by: Orvas Dren In my opinion... Any who think CCP didn't know what this would do to heavy/cruise missles against cruisers are kidding themselves. CCP are not idiots, they knew from the beginning that this would do it. If you are right that CCP knows what they are doing then this is a deliberate nerf to the caldari and other missile users.
Wrayeth	Posted - 2005.09.02 14:30:00 - [31] Originally by: Layrex wtf? Are cpp flipping stupid? Missles users hurt cruisers alot less than they should already! Exactly right. Battleships' role is to kill cruisers and battleships, yet the raven sucks at this atm. Where a tempest would completely obliterate a plated thorax in 2-3 volleys of 1400's at 40km, the raven will take at least eight volleys if not ten - and right now 1400's and siege/cruise launchers are getting roughly the same rate of fire. As for heavy missiles against other cruisers, they'll have basically the same problem torpedos run into vs. ships like the 'geddon and typhoon - reduced damage against ships of the same class. That's messed up. IMHO, they need to adjust the explosion spread for heavies when they make the cruiser sig radius change, and they need to adjust battleship missile damage vs. cruisers upwards in general. I'm not saying torps should do full damage to cruisers, but they should do significantly more than they are now. The same thing applies to heavy missile damage vs. frigs. Oh, and for everyone who is incapable of reading, I AM NOT SAYING THAT CRUISE MISSILES AND TORPEDOS SHOULD DO MORE DAMAGE TO FRIGATES - I'm only talking about cruise and siege vs. cruisers and HEAVY MISSILES vs. frigs. -Wrayeth
ShadowlordUK	Posted - 2005.09.02 14:32:00 - [32] Its about time missile users got nerfed after having got that recent massive boost to dmg and range in the last changes.
Wrayeth	Posted - 2005.09.02 14:41:00 - [33] Edited by: Wrayeth on 02/09/2005 14:43:32 Edited by: Wrayeth on 02/09/2005 14:42:13 Originally by: ShadowlordUK Its about time missile users got nerfed after having got that recent massive boost to dmg and range in the last changes. -snickers- Because missile damage per second vs. ships of the same class was something to write home about pre-patch. Riiiiiight. Why is it that so many people only see the individual missile damage and fail to notice the slow-ass rate of fire? "OMGHAXXORZ! UR TORPED0 JUST HIT MY M3G4 FOR 580 DAMMAGE! U R TEH CHEAT!" News flash: base rate of fire on siege launchers is 24 seconds. What's the base rate of fire on your guns, again? Oh, and 1400's do rougly the same damage as torpedos and have a similar rate of fire. Why weren't you complaining about them, too? After all, I can still wtfpwn frigs and cruisers with 1400's - I whacked a crusader the other day with my tempest's EDIT: tech 1 1400's, and prior to that I did the same thing to a zealot. Seriously, vs. ships of the same class, all the introduction of tech 2 launchers and the Warhead Upgrades skill did was help to put ships like the raven on par at short range. Vs. cruisers, however, the raven is distinctly sub-par - I can pwn a HAC in just a few volleys with my tempest, but there's a good chance I can't even break the same HAC's tank with my raven. -Wrayeth
DayVV4lkEr	Posted - 2005.09.02 14:52:00 - [34] One more time i want to change my race and learned skills in this game (me is a pure caldari pilot)
Sorja	Posted - 2005.09.02 15:03:00 - [35] Originally by: Orvas Dren I think their intent for this is to make missle boats fit more than one kind of launcher across the top of their slots. A raven with 2 siege, 2 cruise, 2 assault, or something to that effect. Please, could you put a WARNING on the top of your posts when you are writing things like that? You had me spill my coffee all over my keyboard, and who's in to clean it up now ? Just to clarify, to get a job done, you have to fit the right weapons for the job, right? Mixing weapons, especially on a Raven, won't get any job done Kill mails

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