Actually, I'm curious to watch the two of them interact. They are both getting votes from my 4 accounts.

But I understand what you are saying.

Also, at least Trebor has experience in that particular business, no matter how one feels it played out for him.

Also, at least Trebor has experience in that particular business, no matter how one feels it played out for him.

Yes but do we want someone with experience in the business to be our voice?

That is what the CSM is all about, speaking for us.

Now due to CSM 7, our voice has already been massively attacked, while CSM 7 applauded.

Do we really want more of this?

Or do we want people who take being our voice as something special, something to not be given back to CCP?

Yes it is their company and their game but the CSM is the voice of us players and it has now been weakened to the point it is now little more than a shadow of its former self.

We should demand people who will stand for us and be our voice.

Not people like Trebor and Seleene that will sell us down the river worrying about CCPs bottom line. CCP has accountants and marketing to worry about their bottom line.

So just say no to sell outs.

That a good point.

Yet, look at his own business ventures. He created the Wizardry line of video games thirty years ago. He stopped being involved by the fourth sequel, and Sir-Tech eventually went out of business. Later he developed the first anti-virus software for the Macintosh, the company was eventually sold in early days. Then he founded AnimEigo, the first company to license Japanese anime for the North American market.

Also, at least Trebor has experience in that particular business, no matter how one feels it played out for him.
Yes but do we want someone with experience in the business to be our voice?

Now due to CSM 7, our voice has already been massively attacked, while CSM 7 applauded.

Do we really want more of this?

Or do we want people who take being our voice as something special, something to not be given back to CCP?

Yes it is their company and their game but the CSM is the voice of us players and it has now been weakened to the point it is now little more than a shadow of its former self.

Experience is only a good thing if you like the job they've done so far.


It's like a credit profile. Someone with a long history of positive reports has a better score than someone with no history. Someone with a long history of negative reports has a worse score than someone with no history.

Whether CSM8 will be equipped to make the most of that power is the real question in this election. I don't agree with Trebor's focus/rhetoric on short term monetary gains for CCP, but he has proven effective as a part of the team and compromised with opposing views more often than not.

The institution of CSM is now stronger than its ever been. By far.

Whether CSM8 will be equipped to make the most of that power is the real question in this election. I don't agree with Trebor's focus/rhetoric on short term monetary gains for CCP, but he has proven effective as a part of the team and compromised with opposing views more often than not.

But can it be proven that is HIS fault for the failures ?

Businesses fail for a lot of reasons. Especially in the world of gaming. Other's bad decisions factor in as well that he could have no control over. Also this industry is almost more dependent on trends than pop music.

Remember, even Atari did initially fail in it's first incarnation.

Also, Trebor was not involved in anything malicious like the takeover and creeping in of malicious tactics like what has happened to EA (see current SimCity).

Personally it seem to me as if the CSM should be 100% focused on gameplay issues, and then it is up to CCP to tell them whether that is possible or not financially.

Also, since the CSM members are under NDA on almost all issues, we cannot be sure that [Trebor offered any] amazing contributions to the CSM and the game over the years.

Also, since the CSM members are under NDA on almost all issues, we cannot be sure that this has indeed been going on with Trebor at all.

All we really have so far is the allegationsof one member, Poetic, unless I have missed some sourced posts, and please do post them if so.

We only have his word after all, and CCP is not going to speak on the issue.

We only have his word after all, and CCP is not going to speak on the issue.**

As for sourcing Trebor's comments. Read the CSM Winter Summit minutes where he suggests either removing wardecs and making them consensual only.

Listen to this interview with Xander Phoena (crossingzebras.com) where he mentions safe areas being an area that should be considered if it means more subscribers, which means more revenue for CCP. See the same comments again in the Trebor vs. Psychotic Monk debate in the Declarations of War podcast.


** Yes. I misquoted you. On the one hand you want to use the NDA as a shield, stating that we don't know what bad ideas Trebor may have presented to CCP, on the other hand you seem quite convinced of his amazing achievements on the CSM. You don't get to have it both ways.

OK let's look at Trebor's Winter Summit, Crossing Zebra's, and Declarations of War appearances. In order. Trebor starts off positing the removing highsec PVP entirely might be a good idea. After much discussion with me, the community, and generally thinking it over he refines his position to supporting a limited area of safety with reduced economic opportunities.

I still dont agree with him (if such systems were to exist they'd have to be virtually sterile in terms of income potential) but it shows a thoughtful evolution on an issue based on intense debate, a debate which it's worth noting refines and tests the arguments and assumptions of the other side (you can see this at work on Declarations of War). This is very typical of Trebor and it's an excellent quality in a CSM rep.

Well, there is one group of people who know what is happening behind closed doors. That'd be the rest of the CSM, and half of them are endorsing Trebor, including the ones who don't agree with him. You don't think that might just be a sign he's doing something right?

As for sourcing Trebor's comments. Read the CSM Winter Summit minutes where he suggests either removing wardecs and making them consensual only.

Listen to this interview with Xander Phoena (crossingzebras.com) where he mentions safe areas being an area that should be considered if it means more subscribers, which means more revenue for CCP. See the same comments again in the Trebor vs. Psychotic Monk debate in the Declarations of War podcast.

He still had the idea to begin with, which is terrible.

I still dont agree with him (if such systems were to exist they'd have to be virtually sterile in terms of income potential)

Or the fact that CSM 7 has only 2 candidates running this time around, and the other one does not speak English very well.

The basic fact is that CSM 7 sold out us players to CCP and so of course they are going to support the only English speaking member left.

The fact that CSM7 sold us out is a fact, you are talking speculation.

Just because Clinton screwed up with DOMA here in America, did that negate the entirety of his Presidency ?

No.

Oh I see the problem. You don't understand the difference between a 'fact' and an 'opinion'. That the CSM7 "sold us out" in an opinion, in order for it become a fact you'd need to find an objective measurable statistic to use to define the term 'sold us out', then provide verifiable evidence to support that statistic was met.

Maybe you could lay out this 'sold out' conspiracy for me though. Did CCP Bribe the CSM? To help sabotage their own game? I mean, how exactly did they sell out? What are they doing behind closed doors? CCP comes to them and says "We'd like to sabotage our own game because we are idiots, here is free candy, support it!"

It's also got a chuckle out of how we can't believe the CSM endorsements of Trebor because they speak English. 11 of the 13 CSMs listed on the member page are from the US or UK. I'm sorry but most of the people on these here interwebs speak English. I'm willing to bet the remaining Russian and Belgian do, too. The idea that they'd feel compelled to support Trebor just because they share a language is new level of absurdity.

Ok lets see if you can answer a simple question

Do our votes have more or less power in the CSM election than they did last year?

honest it is an easy question.

Ok lets see if you can answer a simple question

Do our votes have more or less power in the CSM election than they did last year?

honest it is an easy question.

WTF does this have to do with the price or oranges ?

Whatever your opinion, how are you determining it ?

Ok lets see if you can answer a simple question

Do our votes have more or less power in the CSM election than they did last year?

honest it is an easy question.

from http://poeticstanziel.blogspot.ca/2013/03/prolific-ripard-versus-terrible-trebor.html



One worrying aspect about Trebor is that most of his ideas concerning EVE's future direction boil down to him arguing those suggestions in favour of CCP's bottom line. He claims to know how to grow CCP's business.

Yet, look at his own business ventures. He created the Wizardry line of video games thirty years ago. He stopped being involved by the fourth sequel, and Sir-Tech eventually went out of business. Later he developed the first anti-virus software for the Macintosh, the company was eventually sold in early days. Then he founded AnimEigo, the first company to license Japanese anime for the North American market. AnimEigo is his only company still in business, yet it was leap frogged by other more successful ventures into the market afterwards. First in the industry, last past the post. Trebor has a good track record in recognizing new markets, not much of one in capitalizing on those new markets. He has demonstrated no ability to adapt.

He certainly knows how to create a promising business. Yet, he's demonstrated no long-term growth or follow-through with those businesses. Every business has either folded, been sold-off, or has stagnated. Yet, much of his platform devolves into the argument that what he suggests would help CCP grow their company..

The quoted material above is quite impressive and I would be proud to accomplish as much in RL.

Apparently our new Quafe Yellow shirts dissolve in Pod Goo !

More. Empirically and absolutely.

Boy that WAS easy lol

EDIT: There's a reason Mittani is talking down participation and why Sort Dragon of the HBC brought up the idea of a "protest" by filling the council with 0.0 guys on Voices from the Void. Automating voter preference, allowing the CSM to elect the chair, and decoupling seats at the conference table from the size of your voting bloc all reduce the advantages 0.0 blocs have enjoyed since CSM1

So our votes now chose 10 people that go to Iceland?

No the reality is that while there are fewer wasted votes the votes them selves do a lot less than they used too.

Why do you feel popular vote from voters operating on limited information before the term begins is a better way to choose the Iceland delegates than the CSM and CCP making an informed decision after seeing who puts the work in?

Better to show the candidates who the players chose and the views they hold or the members who will work better as a tool for CCP.

It is all about perspective.

Isn't the entire CSM a tool for CCP? It exists to help CCP as a feedback tool. How exactly does one act as a tool for CCP against the interests of the players? CCP has a vested interest in making the players happy, being as we are paying customers. It's why they made the CSM in the first place..

Isn't the entire CSM a tool for CCP? It exists to help CCP as a feedback tool. How exactly does one act as a tool for CCP against the interests of the players? CCP has a vested interest in making the players happy, being as we are paying customers. It's why they made the CSM in the first place.

So how is it one can be 'a tool for CCP'? Can you provide an example of how one of these 'tools' would act compared to an example of how you feel a CSM member should act? I just don't see what one of these 'tools' would be or do or how it would benefit CCP.

You are aware you just said that in effect Unions are a tool for employers, you might want to ask a few employers if they believe that is true, or whether they feel they are a tool for the Employes instead, as the CSM used to be for us.

You are aware you just said that in effect Unions are a tool for employers, you might want to ask a few employers if they believe that is true, or whether they feel they are a tool for the Employes instead, as the CSM used to be for us.

No that actually is not what I said in any effect. I never brought up Unions or employers because they have absolutely nothing to do with CCP and the CSM. The CSM is not a union. It's not anywhere close to a Union. The two concepts are entirely different in purpose and execution. You are trying to compare two entirely different concepts that aren't even remotely related.

In a Union/Employer situation you have two different factions with mutually exclusive goals. The Company wants to maximize profits, which means reducing expenses, and employee wage and benefits are an expense, therefore the company's motivations are to give as little as possible. The Union on the other hand is there to represent the workers to get the highest wages and benefits possible.

The important key here is that the company and the union's goals are mutually exclusive and in opposition to each other.

That is not the case with the CSM. Both the CSM and CCP have a vested interest in CCP released the best possible product. They are two entities working together for the same goal, not two different entities working against each other to reach a compromise on two mutually exclusive goals.

I don't understand how you can feel one group is selling out to the other when they are both trying to achieve the same thing.