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Alberto
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Posted - 2005.09.04 12:16:00 -
[1]
The one thing in this game that has been a thorn in my side for almost 2 years is the corp. System it just sucks the fun out of the rest of the game ever time I play its very frustrating depressing! No wait itÆs just damn sickening and getting very old.
First here are a few meanings of the word corporation-
A company recognized by law as a single body with its own powers and liabilities, separate from those of the individual members.
A group of people acting as a single entity
To merge, or to combine one thing with another, so as to form a united whole
To combine two or more organizations or things into one unified whole, or join together recourses to strengthen all that are joined as one
Now let me ask you this do the dev,s go to work everyday with there own computers, pencils, notepads, servers, desks and chairs strapped to there back to do work for ccp? Then ccp does not give crap back for there hard work?
Well thatÆs how it is when some one joins a corp. and tries to work for it in eve no damn way for the corp. to own its own stuff grow as a entity and no way to invest, own, buy or work for a piece of the corp. and all its assets No clear way to get back your share that you put in plus the profits!
1.There needs to be corp. ownership (all the items are owned by the corp. name not one member or CEO and his bud) but the share holders 2.Stock shares need to work thatÆs how you own a percentage a corp. and get your fair share of the profits back (its called investing for those that have no clue)
With out these 2 tools a corp. is clueless to it members, assets and goals
Devs you damn well know how a corp. works now do some thing about It.!
The corp. system needs to have a major overhaul it must be tackled by the devÆs. It needs to be looked at Not ignored as it has been since day one
****ing off society one dumba$$ at a time |
Hakera
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Posted - 2005.09.04 12:28:00 -
[2]
Edited by: Hakera on 04/09/2005 12:28:09 sarcastic post award goes to Alberto.
why do people persist in comparing real life systems to ingame mechanics.
what your proposing is stupidally complex it cannot be put into game mechanics or it would have been, corporate shares with value and stock are unworkable because there are not the same complex controls over a company like in real life.
ownership of items does not exist and will never exist because everything is generic and not unique.
its a game
Dumbledore - Eve-I.com |
Alberto
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Posted - 2005.09.04 12:33:00 -
[3]
Originally by: Hakera Edited by: Hakera on 04/09/2005 12:28:09 sarcastic post award goes to Alberto.
why do people persist in comparing real life systems to ingame mechanics.
what your proposing is stupidally complex it cannot be put into game mechanics or it would have been, corporate shares with value and stock are unworkable because there are not the same complex controls over a company like in real life.
ownership of items does not exist and will never exist because everything is generic and not unique.
its a game
You are all the same on these damn threads you love to hear sound of your own damn voices.
It can be done bit by bit and it needs to start soon!
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Sadist
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Posted - 2005.09.04 12:54:00 -
[4]
Originally by: Hakera Edited by: Hakera on 04/09/2005 12:28:09 sarcastic post award goes to Alberto.
why do people persist in comparing real life systems to ingame mechanics.
what your proposing is stupidally complex it cannot be put into game mechanics or it would have been, corporate shares with value and stock are unworkable because there are not the same complex controls over a company like in real life.
ownership of items does not exist and will never exist because everything is generic and not unique.
its a game
You know, before actually flaming him with the generic "its a game" response, you could try to read what he was trying to express. Share system doesn't work atm, because there's no free market of shares, you can't put them up for people to buy, and you certainly have to GIVE them some reason to invest into your corp, and even after that you can just regularly take money out of the corp account, so your legal shareholders get nothing. To make this work, every corp needs a separate account and a place to sell shares (making them physical objects, so they can be sold via escrow). The thing with this account is its so easily exploitable, because the corp that recieved the investment can just as easily create shares or decide not to give the money back to the suckers. Now its up to CCP to come up with a share market.
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VIP member of the [23] |
Karunel
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Posted - 2005.09.04 12:57:00 -
[5]
Quote: corporate shares with value and stock are unworkable because there are not the same complex controls over a company like in real life.
Stock market was mentioned by CCP as a future feature quite before release so I don't think the devs agree with you.
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Dianabolic
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Posted - 2005.09.04 13:00:00 -
[6]
All of the things u mention would be pretty damn low on any list I made of things that need urgently looked at.
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fghr
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Posted - 2005.09.04 13:04:00 -
[7]
well it wont work what will set the value on the stock`s and plz dont say players will cos then you SIR aint smart cos that will never work
sure naga big etc maby but not many more
also my dear players its up to the corp alredy as it is if corp want to have the profit devided to share holders its posseble today etc etc if the corp dont play like that switch corp to one that does its up to you relly so stopp yelling at ccp
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Hakera
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Posted - 2005.09.04 13:15:00 -
[8]
Edited by: Hakera on 04/09/2005 13:15:18
Originally by: Sadist
Share system doesn't work atm, because there's no free market of shares,
making shares availible is all well and dandy, but who and what factors determine their value? real life companies have strict controls on their budgets/accounts/spending and trading, how would you enforce that within eve? The hardest challenge is determining how on earth you value a company given the free nature of the assets since isk and items can be freely withdrawn or added to and the concurrent value of a company can go from billions to nothing in the click of the button.
How would shareholders rights be maintained, what about the rights of the corp and their assets since all your doing is providing an effective isk loan, what determines dividend payments? Who enforces all this?
Its too complex a system imo to implement in a game environment given the controlled nature of a stock market. You cannot replicate all that with simple game mechanics. Hence the 'its a game' part, I would love for this sort of thing if it could be implemented to be done, but realistically its just not doable imo without devoting a large part of the more mathmatically minded devs to such a small thing.
The only kind of stock market that might work is a simple trading mechanics with npc corps only where their value can be controlled by simple equations and factors unlike the uncertaintly and freedom of player corp value and control.
Dumbledore - Eve-I.com |
Alexander Trevalyn
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Posted - 2005.09.04 13:18:00 -
[9]
Quote: The one thing in this game that has been a thorn in my side for almost 2 years is the corp
Before you begin flaming people who disagree with you Alberto, you might consider the merit of their argument. EVE is not a corporate business simulator, it is a space-combat simulator. The business side of the game exists to support warfare, either against NPC's or people. As such, it doesn't need the level of complexity you are calling for.
I do appreciate your passion for your cause. You might consider, however, that while corporate affairs do need some work, your vision of that re-work may not be shared by most of your fellow players and CCP.
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Zaldiri
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Posted - 2005.09.04 14:17:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Hakera Edited by: Hakera on 04/09/2005 13:15:18
Originally by: Sadist
Share system doesn't work atm, because there's no free market of shares,
making shares availible is all well and dandy, but who and what factors determine their value?
What people are prepared to pay for them...
----------------------------------------------- Admiral of King Frieza's Super Saiyan fleet.
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Rod Blaine
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Posted - 2005.09.04 15:19:00 -
[11]
Edited by: Rod Blaine on 04/09/2005 15:27:44
Originally by: Zaldiri
Originally by: Hakera Edited by: Hakera on 04/09/2005 13:15:18
Originally by: Sadist
Share system doesn't work atm, because there's no free market of shares,
making shares availible is all well and dandy, but who and what factors determine their value?
What people are prepared to pay for them...
Which will be nothing, except for a few isk for curiosity value. The value of shares in rl is not determined by what people will give for it. That is just a market factor, but shares do have an ibjective value, and an expectational value. Neither of which can be quantified in this game without introducing obligatory financial reports on corporations, which is something noone actually wants.
Why would I buy a share in an Eve corp when tomorrow, they could get a war declaration and decide to dissolve and reform under another name ? What incentive is there for corporations to make good on promises to shareholders ? What insight do I have in the corporation I buy shares in ?
All those questions and many more can't be answered in Eve, which is why a truly working stock market is out of the question.
edit: As for the original posters' theme of true corporative identity including corp ownership of things. There is only one way to uide such a thing in Eve atm, and that is corporate ownership based on trust. If you can put your trust in the directors of your corp, you can agree to put everything into the corp and have all members rely on the corporation for their goods and financial needs in turn. That's more communistic then capitalistic, but it works well provided you can maintain the basis of trust.
Other then that, corporate ownerships would need to be embedded in rules to such and extent to make it unworkable. Every reasonably valuable item to be carried somewhere by a member for corp needs would need a corp shareholder vote or corp member vote, and we would need to see the introduction of lawyers and a judicial system in eve to deal with the inevitable conflict within corporations. I do see where CCP would not be overly eager to burn their fingers on imiplementing changes that open up the road to rampant ownership, payment and reimbursement conflicts between players. _______________________________________________
Yes yes, blogging is passÚ I know. Rod's Ramblingz on Eve-Online Solutions to your issues. |
Thomus
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Posted - 2005.09.04 15:26:00 -
[12]
i wont ramble. on about the things that. were said, but... did anyone else notice the really. hard to unders.tand use of punctuation!? - i can't. tell you what this guy is talki#ng about cuz my brain won't understand. it when he uses really. bad punc''tuatoin. does anyone. else agree?
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Kylania
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Posted - 2005.09.04 18:16:00 -
[13]
You shouldn't compare EVE corps to real live corps. They should be compared to Guilds in other games, since that's what they really are.
did anyone else notice the really. hard to unders.tand use of punctuation!?
The only "extra" punctuation the OP really used was saying "corp." instead of "corporation". That's not very hard to understand. Well, the "It.!" was a bit odd, but still not hard to understand. -- Lil Miner |
Tenacha Khan
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Posted - 2005.09.04 18:26:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Thomus i wont ramble. on about the things that. were said, but... did anyone else notice the really. hard to unders.tand use of punctuation!? - i can't. tell you what this guy is talki#ng about cuz my brain won't understand. it when he uses really. bad punc''tuatoin. does anyone. else agree?
lol you ****in idiot.
corp. is short for corperation, most people dont put a full stop at the end because the term corp is so commonly used. On the pther had it is pretty damm confusing to read
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Moghydin
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Posted - 2005.09.04 18:48:00 -
[15]
IMHO, the corp system works pretty well. What you propose would give too much of a control on corp financies and assets to members who shouldn't be yet given such a control. Stock market is a nice idea - in theory. It won't work here as there's no law in game (I mean economic law), the same reason, why banking won't work here too. Also, selling corp shares can be easily abused. And if you sell the shares to a non-member, what's then? Eve has its economy side, but it's by no way economy simulation. Although the proposed features are nice, I doubt they'll ever be implemented.
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sonofollo
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Posted - 2005.09.04 18:59:00 -
[16]
while youre at it fix concord agetns so they work - corp to NPC standings - corp taxes and the rest of the broken stuff like smuggling etc
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Alberto
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Posted - 2005.09.04 21:04:00 -
[17]
Listen; listen to what I am saying I am not asking for a stock market and pubic companies I am asking for a way to stop the communistic crap
corp. item ownership and shares that work with it that is all
All I want is to get back or give back a players fair share
And yes it is exploitable thatÆs the way it is in real life
****ing off society one dumba$$ at a time |
F'nog
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Posted - 2005.09.04 21:26:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Karunel
Quote: corporate shares with value and stock are unworkable because there are not the same complex controls over a company like in real life.
Stock market was mentioned by CCP as a future feature quite before release so I don't think the devs agree with you.
It also hasn't been implemented after two years, except for a brief period of a few days, after which it was quickly removed. So I'd say Hak has a valid point. If it were easy to do, it would be in the game already.
Originally by: Idio T
Only two types of people I hate in this game: People who discriminate against other races, and the French.
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Katjia
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Posted - 2005.09.04 21:33:00 -
[19]
Edited by: Katjia on 04/09/2005 21:36:22 alberto m8 i think you joined a bad corp or something..or maybe mom 'n' pop is weird but we some how manage to run in a for the people by the people kinda way. dunno hope we aren't the only ones like that
And this is w/o a stock or share system it's called trust among members.
gah spelling is soooo overated.... |
Magnum VII
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Posted - 2005.09.04 21:51:00 -
[20]
Originally by: Alberto Listen; listen to what I am saying I am not asking for a stock market and pubic companies I am asking for a way to stop the communistic crap
Corp. item ownership and shares that work with it that is all
All I want is to get back or give back a players fair share
And yes it is exploitable thatÆs the way it is in real life
In a corp., people that work in the corp. get a salary. Is that what you want?
Also CEO's get voted in and out by board members, would that be good too?
Yeah I would like a salary and the opportunity to vote for the CEO every once in a while, what do you think Alberto?
What was it that made you think of this? Or what if any corp. experiences have you had in the game that led you to thinking about this issue? It seems like something happened to you in the game and got you upset, it would be interesting to know what it was, so we could understand were youÆre coming from if I'm not understanding myself. Thanks.
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Bhaal
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Posted - 2005.09.05 01:44:00 -
[21]
Quote: I do appreciate your passion for your cause. You might consider, however, that while corporate affairs do need some work, your vision of that re-work may not be shared by most of your fellow players and CCP.
CCP are the ones who dropped the ball on everything except PVP in this game. (some would argue otherwise on that topic as well)
From day 1 they have been selling something they cannot provide to the sub holders.
If it were simply a space combat game, there would be no need for corps, shares, yadda yadda... There would simply be clans & guilds like all other games.
CCP failed in its attempt for a true free market IMO. However, they have realized that they are not obligated to provide what they promised, as no other MMO company has, so they need not waste resources on it. They will continue along this path until some other game arrives and delivers what CCP has failed to deliver...
------------------------------------------------ Current Hobby other than EVE |
Tekran
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Posted - 2005.09.05 01:56:00 -
[22]
hmm.. interesting point.. so.. can I have your stuff?
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