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Ragnar	Posted - 2003.07.27 03:41:00 - [1] ItÆs too bad that men cannot fight like men in this game. First let me give a little summary of what happened today. Taggart Transdimensional (TTI) was attacked in empire space by the duo of "Femme Fatal" and "Shintai". Femme Fatal is in a one-man front corporation called Going Limp that is funded by one of our current enemies. Shintai is in a corp called Coretech and worked with Femme Fatal on an exploit to destroy TTI ships. I wonÆt thoroughly describe the exploit, as it was already done in this thread: http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=22041&page=1 Suffice it to say it was universally considered an exploit, except by the exploiters. TTI had no defense against this tactic, since firing on CoretechÆs ship would have brought Concord against us. They effectively used this exploit to make themselves allies with Concord. If Coretech had been run by real men, they would have declared war on TTI so that we could fight back. A few hours after the attack we rolled in and podded Femme Fatal whose corpse is currently on display on our website. We had to scramble the Coretech ship so our other ships could take out Femme Fatal without the help of Shintai. Of course Concord came down hard on TTI, but we escaped. Just after that, I received no less that 11 (eleven) email viruses in my inbox, as did several other executives of Taggart. I use this computer also for work, for my family, and for my son. It is absolutely ridiculous that anyone would do this, but it is typical of the enemies of Taggart. Taggart is currently in a state of hostilities with two corps of significance, Evolution and M3G4. We would seriously appreciate it if all action in game taken in the spirit of the game and working within the confines of the game. Use of exploits and sending email viruses has to stop. - Ragnar Danneskj÷ld Taggart Transdimensional, Inc. http://www.taggarttransdimensional.com
Elizar	Posted - 2003.07.27 03:45:00 - [2] Though my views on your corp. may not be very pleasing, I stand with you on this subject, and deplore cheap tactics used to get at a group of people enjoying a game. Thats low, and unfortunatly, I believe beyond CCP's control. http://webpages.charter.net/atwtnick/sig.jpg
shazam000	Posted - 2003.07.27 03:46:00 - [3] Edited by: shazam000 on 27/07/2003 03:51:47 One of my favorite things about this game is the generally mature crowd that I find here. Nothing ruins a game faster than a bunch of 12-year-old punks using exploits and killing everything they can see. Is that why we play? No. This is cooperative game and weÆre all here to have fun. What fun is having your ship trashed for no reason, by a player using an exploit? Common peopleà. Grow up! Behavior like this is grounds for banning. Perhaps CCP should ***** down a little harder. shazam GL, HF, KA, DD!
eriq	Posted - 2003.07.27 04:21:00 - [4] Edited by: eriq on 27/07/2003 04:34:50 Edited by: eriq on 27/07/2003 04:27:21 how could anyone have a problem with TTI that isn't rooted in jealousy? no one in TTI has ever scammed anyone, manipulated exploits, attacked a player without a darn good reason or without being at war. their members strive for honesty and honorable business in addition to the focus on profits. TTI would much rather make money and dominate industry through fair practices and trade than through war, so i ask you, what is it that you don't like about them? i should note that although i am a TTI member, i do not speak for the corp, i'm merely providing my personal observations.
M0RPHEUS	Posted - 2003.07.27 04:22:00 - [5] im more concerned about viruses actualy, but dude, dont publish ur main e-mail address in games. i get everything from **** and flame to realy strange suicide letters from AC2 and my old SC/CS clan... Ask me nicely and I won't pod you...
Sequin	Posted - 2003.07.27 04:25:00 - [6] Ragnar, I've never truly liked TTi after the INO afair, but I have to throw my self in league with you for this. Exploiting tactics and out of game attacks are unwarranted and childish. Grow up people, keep it ingame or don't play at all. Good luck on crushing those two jackasses TTi. ^A Raem Civre Original EVE-Trade, for your buying and selling needs. A Voogru original. [i]Redon > evol and mass have a GM helping them with everything Redon > notice how they always get ships replaced and none of us cant <--- Hurray for teamwork! b] We are evil exploiters!
Darth Maul	Posted - 2003.07.27 04:26:00 - [7] gotta agree with Ragnar on this one.. was especially amused to se that you are at war with Evolution .. since Evol just recently decided they were gonna come to Fountain and try to run off a dozen or more corps that have been living together peacefully for months.. lol Talk about biteing off more than you can chew.
Slam	Posted - 2003.07.27 04:49:00 - [8] Edited by: Slam on 27/07/2003 04:54:12 ontopic: just because somebody acts like a and idiot and a jerk doesnt mean the person is young. My squad in Jumpgate had an incident with a 30ish year old member that defied belief. Anyways I'm just glad this particular idiot/eploiter chose a good and well organized corp like Taggert as target. Good job dispensing your own justice TTI :) offtopic: Evolution was TAOSP (afaik) during beta and slapped a lot of alliances silly - among them TTI.
Primer Xenius	Posted - 2003.07.27 05:02:00 - [9] All the best to TTI You have our support. "we all know CA planned to attack Xetic "when the time was right" from day1" - Lallante
Nootami	Posted - 2003.07.27 05:03:00 - [10] I'm dissapointed in you shintai. I used to like you. Originally by: Cortex Reaver [22:39:59] [Oi]Nootami1 joined channel [22:40:02] [Oi]Nootami1 quit Oh,look! Someone joined for a whopping .3 seconds! -CR
Revolution	Posted - 2003.07.27 05:08:00 - [11] Hmm, im not sure what this has to do with us ragnar, i hope you arnt trying to tar us with the exploit/virus brush, as we can more than handle ourselves ingame.
DigitalCommunist	Posted - 2003.07.27 05:16:00 - [12] Attacking an opponent without reason - dishonourable. Using exploits to win fights - cowardice and weakness. Sending viruses against enemies - truly pathetic. _____________________________________ Perpetually driven, your end is our beginning. "Can I be a consultant for EVE II?" - WhiteDwarf
Aeryn Sarum	Posted - 2003.07.27 05:25:00 - [13] Having a sig that is larger than your post -> lame.
Ywev	Posted - 2003.07.27 05:34:00 - [14] Attacking an opponent without reason - dishonourable. hmm so that just says pirates are dishonorable? I kill people Pod ya later.. Ywev
Crimsonjade	Posted - 2003.07.27 05:39:00 - [15] thats a shame that the cap drain works in such a way. i remember then the warp scramble and webifiers worked that way also. yes lots of people dealt with it... you can too! until then thanks for the warning. the virus stuff sucks... i agree that people need to keep the wars in game. some people just have an altered perspective about reality i guess. No pain, no palm; no thorns, no throne; no gall, no glory; no cross, no crown.
Ragnar	Posted - 2003.07.27 06:14:00 - [16] Edited by: Ragnar on 27/07/2003 06:19:32 I believe some of our trading partners and allies are getting these viruses too. Please check http://securityresponse.symantec.com/avcenter/venc/data/[email protected] and see if any of that looks familiar. I have had reports of a few of our inactive members back from the beta receiving these viruses too. Thanks. - Ragnar Danneskj÷ld Taggart Transdimensional, Inc. http://www.taggarttransdimensional.com
Lexington Cabot	Posted - 2003.07.27 06:46:00 - [17] Edited by: Lexington Cabot on 27/07/2003 06:51:38 watching the way threads evolve and flow---> priceless Edit: Not making fun of anyone, just saying I love the life a thread takes on and what direction it goes in. Half the fun of the boards :)
Jack Hayden	Posted - 2003.07.27 07:43:00 - [18] Edited by: Jack Hayden on 27/07/2003 07:53:45 Edited by: Jack Hayden on 27/07/2003 07:52:13 Exploit? Not really, it's how the game currently work, and thusly they play within the current rules. It's people like Shintai, and others, that really do the groundwork and find out how the game works, one way is playing alot on Chaos, where you can really duke it out at no risk, that insure that flaws like this are found and fixed(if it is a flaw). They found a weakness, if it is one, maybe the dev's intended it this way, and used against you, and you cry foul, dishonesty I am pretty sure that TTi's trade division, run by no other than Ragnar, dabble in robotics, placing buy orders to suck the market dry right after downtime. According to Hellmar, latest dev chat, that is griefing, so you are a bunch of griefers then? Some might even say the way it is done is dishonest, unfair, and expoliting a broken design? As I see it you are just playing by the current rules, but if you insist on calling Shintai and his ilk exploiters, then I say you too are exploiters, and griefers(I can say that because Hellmar pretty much sanctioned that last dev chat) If you are not willing to go all that way and use any mean, within the current game design/rule, you do not wan't to win badly enough. The viruses, that's bad, but do you have proof? Don't run around making accusations without proof, it could all bne a coincidence. Present us proof, not just speculations, before you make an accusation like that. á "Spelling and grammatical errors are placed solely to test your abilities as a proofreader. All prices include 25% VAT."
V'cassLord Daeth	Posted - 2003.07.27 07:46:00 - [19] Edited by: V'cassLord Daeth on 27/07/2003 07:51:39 On this issue i am for once in agreement with Ragnar...virus emails are a disgusting base and low thing to do. Its one thing to engange in activites that the game allows, however sneaky, but to send people viruses, get a life, you are sick. I hope whoever did this gets band and prosecuted...and if they don't i think its time we started a new chat line for eve's most wanted...people like this ruin the game. This isn't piracy, this isn't at all playing the game. Its low, and classless period. I'd ask rag for proof, but i certainly don't need a email virus! I think we should all go out and lay'm the beats. Sometimes idiots just need a good beating.
Femme Fatal	Posted - 2003.07.27 07:51:00 - [20] Edited by: Femme Fatal on 27/07/2003 08:01:46 It saddens me to see people who are gutless enough to send such E-mails. I hope Taggart can efficiently defend themselves against such lame, and totally uncalled for out of game tactics. As for in-game, it saddens me that even the CEO of Taggart, in all his supposed eloquence and style is a foreigner to reading and comprehension. I explained what happened, I told you why it did, and I did it more than once (stupidly - Ill go shut up now). Any beginner can see that this would have been much easier (and that I would never have lost my ship) had Shintai actually been ABLE to join my Corporation. Sad to see what this is coming to. Even in the face of the truth TTI's CEO in his endless hypocracy uses such underhand tactics as stamping off his enemies as shameless exploiters AND listing us in the same thread as people who send Viruses, while condeming others for being spineless. This is coming close to slander, and very dissapointing. First I saw you as prey, now I see as gutless, whining, cowards.
Li ShangYin	Posted - 2003.07.27 07:58:00 - [21] It's like the 10th time or so that this has happened on a larger scale, we've also had trojans and a bunch of other crap being targeted at us in the last 6 months... ___________________________________ A spring day at the edge of the world. On the edge of the world once more the day slants. The oriole cries, as though it were its own tears Which damp even the topmost blossoms on the tree. -- Li Shang-yin, Exile, ninth century A.D.
Mr Blonde	Posted - 2003.07.27 08:05:00 - [22] Oi Oi Oi Ragnar is resorting to slander and accusations that he has no proof of to beat his enemies now... are you running out of ships Ragnar or why do you sink so low? __________________________________________ Are you gonna bark all day, little doggy, or are you gonna bite??
Athule Snanm	Posted - 2003.07.27 08:27:00 - [23] >> how could anyone have a problem with TTI that isn't rooted in jealousy? no one in TTI has ever scammed anyone, manipulated exploits, attacked a player without a darn good reason or without being at war. their members strive for honesty and honorable business in addition to the focus on profits. TTI would much rather make money and dominate industry through fair practices and trade than through war, so i ask you, what is it that you don't like about them? >> You are missing the only reason why someone should dislike someone else who is a complete stranger to you, roleplaying. Comments like those above show a clear inability to separate real life attacks on someone with ingame ones. The e-mail viruses are clearly reasons for banning if they originated from an EVE player, and possibly (probably) further action too. Anyway, using an energy drain module to effect an attack knowing that it wasn't going to result in a hostile action is clearly a loophole in the game. I would stop short of calling it an exploit, but only just and it doesn't reflect very well on people who use it. As to attacking AFK miners - well it is war and it is also by far the best way to damage a non-combative corp such as TTi. You can stop a food blender by sticking your fist in the blades, or you can pull the plug. Attacks on miners in a large corp in high sec space (and with more effort, any space) are almost impossible to prevent as the large numbers of spread out members are hard to defend. And even if they are defended, that in itself is a victory as the people doing the defending are either going to be packing fewer weapons or are in fact doing nothing at all. One possible goal for example would be to put a temporary halt on AFK mining - which then would eventually also have a knock-on effect on production etc (although this is more long term). If the attacking corporation isn't production/mining based then it will be very hard to do an equivalent amount of damage back. _______________________________ Doomheim - EVE's only hygiene!
Jash Illian	Posted - 2003.07.27 08:28:00 - [24] Edited by: Jash Illian on 27/07/2003 08:35:40 Erm...not to rain on anyone's gleeful roasting... But do you know how many viruses NAV eliminates from my mailbox daily? At least 10-20. Why so many? Because my email box is CC'ed on the company's support email from corporate website. I won't bother telling you how much unsolicited **** spam that box gets. Point is, how do you know who is sending you viruses Ragnar? Does it have to be M3G4 or whoever else you're fighting? Why not another player with a grudge? Or maybe it's just your turn. Evidence people. Bring evidence. Then bring accusations. I've seen more hard proof of Heresy doing research on the Inquisition than this forum. PS: After visiting Symantec's website, per Ragnar's post, I recognized that virus. It's a favorite in my mail box. Gets cleaned out at least 3 times per week. I mean its like you want corporations to oblige each other like its sex or something. Pffft I would rather *** my enemy.- Rohann Be careful out there. That other guy waiting in the queue for the gate MIGHT be a baby-munching frock-burner, YOU JUST DON'T KNOW!*- Lallante
Shintai	Posted - 2003.07.27 10:04:00 - [25] So slander is TTI¦s way of fighting? I see TTI is Going Limb ;d Abstraction and Transcendence: Nature, Shintai, and Geometry
Calladen Nimitz	Posted - 2003.07.27 10:48:00 - [26] Edited by: Calladen Nimitz on 27/07/2003 12:03:14 Post deleted
Shintai	Posted - 2003.07.27 10:57:00 - [27] Calladen Nimitz: Since you don¦t know anything about how virus etc works. Let me enlighten you. I myself is a SysAdm at a danish ISP, I see and comment abuse cases aswell. Also about viruses and so on. Almost noone knows they are sending virus, the abuse handlers job is also to tell them so they know, and can take action on it. Everyone get virus in email sooner or later, and spam. Specially if you got your email posted somewhere, be it in newsgroup, websites etc. Or you just subscribed for something. Read the mailheaders, post them here. And we can all see where they are from. Unless then, shutup and stop whine like a 2year old. Its always easy to accuse someone for doing something aint it? It takes only a few secs to poste something like this, with no proof or anything. And trust me, sueing anything outside the US wont gain you anything but laughing. You can send a mail to [email protected] if you say I or Femme send you viruses. And the abuse handlers and I will look at it. And give you a reply. Now please get abit more mature instead of posting these lies and the like. Abstraction and Transcendence: Nature, Shintai, and Geometry
Joshua Calvert	Posted - 2003.07.27 11:00:00 - [28] Ragnar, http://www.promailix.com/ There are a lot of tools at the above website you can use to make a thorough investigation of any and all emails you receive. LEEEEERRRRRRRRRRROOOOOOOOOYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY!
Calladen Nimitz	Posted - 2003.07.27 11:05:00 - [29] Edited by: Calladen Nimitz on 27/07/2003 12:03:34 Post Deleted
Shintai	Posted - 2003.07.27 11:07:00 - [30] Edited by: Shintai on 27/07/2003 11:11:12 All mails are traceable Calladen Nimitz, since the RFC822 states the IP in the mailheader where you got in from. You can put another DNS name etc, but the IP will always stand there, now try again. F for that one, misunderstood the concept of the RFC. EDIT: And who the hell you family is have no meaning to me nor relevance, unless you are some attention *****. Names don¦t give respect here, actions do. And I don¦t even have your email in the case anyway. Abstraction and Transcendence: Nature, Shintai, and Geometry
Calladen Nimitz	Posted - 2003.07.27 11:12:00 - [31] I apologize for losing my temper in the last post. I'm very angry about this virus business and the fact someone would target us that way. I honestly don't know who is doing this and I really don't care as long as it stops. This type of activity is completely inappropriate in a gaming enviornment. There is no one who can say it isn't related to Taggart but to be honest it could be ANYBODY ingame. I can deal with loopholes, exploits that need fixing and griefing players. This is a crime plain and simple. So I'm going to do something about it. Calladen Nimitz
Jack Hayden	Posted - 2003.07.27 11:15:00 - [32] Edited by: Jack Hayden on 27/07/2003 11:17:49 Calladan, I live in the same country as Shintai, Denmark, and I can't help laughing at you. Do you really think the laws of the US apply to me or Shintai? You can take your laws and complaints and stuff'em where the sun don't shine. Edit: Sure, if someone does send virus on purpose, it's rather lame, but man you got zero prof as I see it. I got virus via mail at regular intervals, so its not uncommon. á "Spelling and grammatical errors are placed solely to test your abilities as a proofreader. All prices include 25% VAT."
Calladen Nimitz	Posted - 2003.07.27 11:16:00 - [33] Edited by: Calladen Nimitz on 27/07/2003 12:04:28 Post Deleted
DREAMWORKS	Posted - 2003.07.27 11:16:00 - [34] Sending email virusses is something you can act against, i am very well known with abuse issues and if you need any assistance please let me know ingame. The persons who did this will not only get them banned from the game (if CCP does that), but also get an warning or even a disconnection from their ISP because of abuse issues. People doing this are invading your and your private lives by doing so and thus many ISP are willingly to ban them from further services.. Contact me ingame by email, ill help you out. __________________________ http://www.nin.com/visuals/thtf_hi.html
Shintai	Posted - 2003.07.27 11:16:00 - [35] Edited by: Shintai on 27/07/2003 11:17:48 Whining about loopholes etc. Like we used cap drainers on you, and you used ECM jammers on us we understand and don¦t have a problem with. But we don¦t like to get dragged into the same discussion as viruses and fastly stated like we do it. If you read the posts sofar, you see many think that the cap drainers and the people that sends viruses with email are about the same persons. But its somewhat understandable if you are frustrated about it, just be careful who you shoot at. Its worse to accuse someone for something they didn¦t do, than to do it against someone. EDIT: Post the headers here, so all can see, and we can tell you where they are from and who owns the IP range. Abstraction and Transcendence: Nature, Shintai, and Geometry
Kerry	Posted - 2003.07.27 11:20:00 - [36] Hmmmm 11 virus' of none previous right after someone podded? Stop asking for proof. That is blatantly obvious. Instead of asking for proof. Why don't you come right out and say he is a liar. Sounds like people are in on it when they ask for proof from something so blatantly obvious. As for "proof" do you think the virus spammer would give a video tape of himself doing the f**king crime???? What are you new???? What your line of questioning of proof is blantantly pointing to is that you are saying he is lying.
Calladen Nimitz	Posted - 2003.07.27 11:21:00 - [37] Edited by: Calladen Nimitz on 27/07/2003 12:03:49 Post Deleted
Jack Hayden	Posted - 2003.07.27 11:25:00 - [38] Calladen: Correct. But they would act under Danish law, not US, but you also state that. What I god really angry about is those lame accusations, unless you got proof to back it up, it should never, ever, have been posted. I don't wanna bite your had off, but whenever I read stuff like that and "I will complaing, US law, blah blah" I get so freakin' mad. I can be I'll tempered. á "Spelling and grammatical errors are placed solely to test your abilities as a proofreader. All prices include 25% VAT."
Calladen Nimitz	Posted - 2003.07.27 11:26:00 - [39] Edited by: Calladen Nimitz on 27/07/2003 12:04:56 Post Deleted
Femme Fatal	Posted - 2003.07.27 11:27:00 - [40] Its funny how you say you are mad at someone taking an ingame issue and taking it out of game by sending Viruses to TTI accounts. I totally agree with you.. Yet lets look at what Ragnar did. He took an ingame issue, namely me and Shintai, and connected us with an out of game issue that we had nothing to do with (Virus) without any proof, or anything similar. Now I dont know about you.. but im sure as hell ****ed off at it, and I bet you would be aswell. I have already mailed Ragnar asking him to either make 2 threads about this issue, or clearly distance us (or Evo / M3g4) from these accusations that he is throwing around. I am also waiting a public apology from him, because taking ingame matters like killing TTI members into out of game slander is in direct contradiction to this hypocritical "ItÆs too bad that men cannot fight like men in this game. " Quote by Ragnar Lets all please keep this civilized and ingame, so we can all enjoy what we paid for.
Shintai	Posted - 2003.07.27 11:28:00 - [41] Calladen Nimitz: Let us try bend this in Neon again.. Child ****ography is lawbreaking thing in Denmark. Sending viruses ain¦t actually. The worst case you can get from sending viruses is your ISP shuts your down. And post the headers for gods sake. Since they hold all the edvidence. And for those saying you can fake it etc. No you can¦t, you can fake large parts of it, but the mailserver that gets the mail adds the IP where it came from and you can¦t spoof that in a TCP session. So post the headers, or simpyl shutup since you are then full of crap. Abstraction and Transcendence: Nature, Shintai, and Geometry
Hanns	Posted - 2003.07.27 11:29:00 - [42] i dont like the way you mentioned M3G4 in your post, your making it sound like we had some part in this virus malarky!
Calladen Nimitz	Posted - 2003.07.27 11:57:00 - [43] I'll deal with it. No more replies are needed. Have a nice day. Calladen
Jade Constantine	Posted - 2003.07.27 12:17:00 - [44] Edited by: Jade Constantine on 27/07/2003 12:19:52 First off, I entirely agree with Athule; it is silly and foolish to read real world animosity into roleplayed in-game hatreds and rivalry. That way truly lays despair and unhappiness. Taggart as an Eve corporation is in a tremendous position of influence power and notoriety, both and good and bad on the latter. They have been bold and forthright enough to express a detailed roleplayed philosophy and modus operandi that is open source for fellow eve players. It is only reasonable to expect that this philosophy and code of ethics will contradict and inflame the roleplayed sensibilities of certain other corporations and groups. If, for example, my corporation was to decide to strike at Taggart at some point in the future I would like it made very clear that the decision would be one reached on entirely roleplayed reasons, and would be very prepared to discuss my characterÆs motivations, intentions, and overall engagement agenda with anybody interested. For me the grounds for combat and ideological strife in eve are rich with vast potential; this, combined with the apparent age and maturity of the player base, were decisive factors in gaining my commitment as a player and CEO. For me the question; ôHow could anyone have a problem with TTI that isn't rooted in jealousy?ö Is na´ve and self-deluding in the same breath, and the obvious response is to answer a question with a question? Why does naked capitalism have detractors? In game, I can think of dozens of reasons why individuals and groups would have cause to hate TTI; Business rivals fighting for; trade routes, mining spots, sales opportunities, seeking price stabilisation, searching for any kind of spanner in the works of the great machine. Ideological rivals fighting against monolithic capitalism, centralised control and apparent fiscal tyranny. National rivals fighting against the dominance of a largely caldari corp. Territorial rivals fighting against the unwelcome presence of a megacorp on their patch. Criminals who oppose the presence of order. Criminals who just see fat merchants and mining chickens to be plucked. Or more obscurely, maybe someone creates a character who is RagnarÆs unwanted lovechild from a previous marriage and thus burns for revenge and an eventual step into his shoes as director of the universes most powerful businessman. Now speaking personally, I have an extremely specific agenda for the Jericho Fraction, and that agenda may well bring us into conflict with any number of powers. I havenÆt been terribly secretive, and those who have roleplayed these things with me have discovered some of the truth of what we are ultimately after. To his credit (in my experience) Calleden Nimitz has played the game and has done a good job for TTI in negotiating a potentially explosive situation. Top marks for a man who can stay in character and avoid the unhelpful assumptions that all animosity is out of game inspired - I know from past personal experience that game arguments can be the bitterest arguments in adult life ;) Ironic but true, I think we are all frustrated jack-booting dictators and fanatical freedom fighters at heart! *** Anyway enough philosophical background and onto the other points of the argument; Femme Fatal and ShintaiÆs attack; I think they had every right to do it philosophically and applaud their courage as players to take the fight to the big guy in such a public manner. Re the tactics; well clearly the energy drain ôshould beö classed as an offensive action since it is an offensive tactic, but thatÆs something that CCP has to address in next patch. So yep, to an extent they are taking advantage of a loophole. But letÆs not kid ourselves that they are the only people doing stuff like that. As mentioned elsewhere in this thread; the market manipulation and domination currently going on elsewhere in eve is a similar loophole and situation exploited to massive personal ends and gain. Exploits are common Just the other night I almost lost my ship to a can lagged blockade à I consider that a cheap ass exploit as well à lady luck saw me through, but it reminded me unpleasantly of the mOo days of such antics. Earlier yet (prior to the balance patch), my corp lost ships and pilots to uber-powered bugged skills and unbalanced mods combos; again people exploiting weaknesses in the game system. But these things happen. As people might recall elsewhere in eve we lost 31m to a comms glitch that made a particular character the recipient of eveÆs biggest ôlottery winö to date. We reacted by declaring the lottery war and roleplaying the thing out. Stiff upper lip and adaptation to circumstance is the only way. JF Public Forum
Jade Constantine	Posted - 2003.07.27 12:19:00 - [45] Edited by: Jade Constantine on 27/07/2003 12:23:49 The point IÆm trying to make here is that people will play the system as is; and that naming and shaming exploiters to stop them using particular tactics is a thing potentially as evil as the exploit itself, especially when, as is apparent with this thread, the complaint of exploiting is matched with unproven accusations of out-of-game griefing. Robotics traders as a case in point ... there are known ways and means to control the markets and strangle all supply. Appalling system glitches allow this and have currently made the market something of a farce. Should I come on here with names and regions and a record of what was done and where and declare the perp an evil griefer who should be shot on sight for crimes against the community? Nah, clearly not, I have faith in the next patch and that one days things will change. Till then we adapt and play the game as best we can. *** Ragnar, on the specific issue of the attack and response. if I was public relations director of TTI, I would have announced the acquisition of Femme FatalÆs corpse as a triumph of justice and would have absolutely slammed these guys with a mix of rhetorical fire and political brimstone (totally in character). In the background I would have offered 100m isk for the destruction of ShintaiÆs ship and acquisition of his corpse for similar PR exploits. And if that didnÆt work then what the hey, why not send a company of cheap-ass Blackbirds to blow him up and damn the consequences? Its not like your company cannot afford the potential loss. But I absolutely wouldnÆt have muddied the in- game political and strategic response to this threat by ooc condemnation of exploits and exploiters, and would certainly not have mentioned the virus issue as part of the same thread. If the virusÆs have come from eve players then thatÆs a separate out of game problem and internet providers need to be informed. ItÆs a routine task to traceroute the ips of the incoming viruses à I would gain the information à stick it into a text file and mail the relevant providers. If you still received no satisfaction (and were relatively certain that the attack had come from eve players) then copy CCP à maybe they can compare ip headers with account details à IÆll bet it contravenes AUP. Lastly though, I can appreciate what you are thinking to do here, and to the extent that you want a cleaner game with less exploiting of bugs and glitches and loopholes and exploits, I can applaud it. But I would ask you to be mindful of the dangers of linking substantiated and unsubstantiated accusations, and also of the perils of responding too hard and too bitterly to perceptions of ôunfairö play. ôExploitingö takes many forms and oftimes its difficult to tell clever play from exploits. Ultimately we are all playing this game in a period of flux and evolution û the rules change from week to week, and just because we get burned in game is no reason to vilify the names and morality of our fellow players out of game. Anyhow, all the best to all, hope IÆve not offended, but I do feel strongly about these kind of arguments and am very wary on matters of public relations tyranny in the context of gameplay and reputation. JF Public Forum
Calladen Nimitz	Posted - 2003.07.27 12:31:00 - [46] Edited by: Calladen Nimitz on 27/07/2003 12:33:10 IG- Ah Jade it is good to see you again. I trust our date for a dinner and summit is still on in a couple of weeks? Until then....... Calladen OOG- I must admit I was carried away with rage after having my computer infected by this stupid virus. Yes, I opened it, because I was expecting some files from people who lost money in the Infinity Fund deal (see another post here) and was compiling a list for payment. I was spending my own OOG time working on something to make other peoples gaming experience better (restitution) only to be infected. Now for the THIRD time in as many months I will have to reload my O/S and start from scratch since the Norton nor Symnetic programs I've obtained or downloaded have proven useless. I will take care of this real-life issue so its done with. In game I keep everything in context. Even the "debatable" issue of the capacitor drain. Jade is most correct it should be offensive in nature and is probably a "loophole". I do wish they would fix the war declaration bug (it isn't like we haven't petitioned). Still after the battle yesterday I applaud Femme for her "spirit" in defeat. While I wasn't present it mustve been a glorious chase. It's a game..... lets have some fun. Calladen
Jade Constantine	Posted - 2003.07.27 12:42:00 - [47] IC :- But of course monsieur Nimitz m'dear, do expect a coded transmission in the next few days. Jade OOC :- I'd advise you to install Norton Internet Security and take the recurring update plan. You want the thing always on and auto connecting for definations each day for proper security. For the record my account averages 3-4 virus infected files as well. And for the love of god, turn off the auto run macros in Outlook ;-) J. JF Public Forum
Calladen Nimitz	Posted - 2003.07.27 12:45:00 - [48] OOG- Thank you Jade. I had that plan but the macros I don't know about will check. I think I've been neglecting my updates on nortons. Calladen
Jack Hayden	Posted - 2003.07.27 12:52:00 - [49] For the love of God, don't use Outlook and don't use Internet Exploder, plain and simple. That will keep alot of those nasty bugs from your doorstep. á "Spelling and grammatical errors are placed solely to test your abilities as a proofreader. All prices include 25% VAT."
Calladen Nimitz	Posted - 2003.07.27 13:08:00 - [50] "For the love of God, don't use Outlook and don't use Internet Exploder, plain and simple. That will keep alot of those nasty bugs from your doorstep." I'm open to suggestions as to alternatives. I can run a business but comptuers are a foriegn language for the most part. What else is good (I use netscape not IE browser already)? What's a good e-mail utility instead of outlook? Thanks.
Tehel Necrona	Posted - 2003.07.27 13:13:00 - [51] Femme, lets get one thing straight kidda, had Shinati been in your corporation i would of been able to shoot him, had that been teh case his insurance company would of been making a payout. Please stop acting innocent when the only reason you did this was infact to avoid being hit back. Yes invinciblity is a great advantage, and i admire you for comming up with the tactic. However stating that you did it because Shinati wasn't able to join your corp and you didn't intend for that effect? Oh Please get off your high horse, Shinati would of never dreamed of performing such a stunt against other battleships with only one maller for support, and if he was preppared to he is quite simply stupid as anyone with half a brain and their sight left will appreciate tti has a huge presence inside lonetrek and that walking into our den in a 100mil ship would of costed you big time. If you wanna fight like a man, join Femme's corp, or have coretech declare war on us, until then get your finger out of your backside and admit you aint all holy. -Necro P.S. I don't think its fair to link anyone to the e-mail attacks, and i do not believe Ragnar intended too, simply because we do not have any proof. I think he simply wanted to make a point for whoever was doing it to please stop.
Femme Fatal	Posted - 2003.07.27 13:32:00 - [52] Well nice posts, sadly you didnt miss much, wasnt really a chase. We left and looked around a bit, got word of a battleship sitting at a gate and warped there. I didnt warp away fast enough and died, end of story ;) As to Necro, training done in 2 hours, you can feel to retract whatever you said then.
Jack Hayden	Posted - 2003.07.27 13:39:00 - [53] Calladen: Mozilla come with a built in mail addy that is good, that is what I use. Aside from that, Eudora Mail should be rather good, never used myself, but from what I hear its good. Another combo that is not shabby is Opera, altough I dislike the way it handles mail, but personal prefrence I guess. You can find more information here: www.eudora.com and www.opera.com. Oh, and if you care to use a Linux distro Ximian Evolution might be for you Added benefit of Linux and/or Mac is that they are immune to pretty much all the nasty viruses. á "Spelling and grammatical errors are placed solely to test your abilities as a proofreader. All prices include 25% VAT."
Main	Posted - 2003.07.27 14:55:00 - [54] tti, may i make one thing straight with you, men fight with their minds and not only a their guns. You were outsmarted, a battleship captain was caught with his pants down and didn't notice his huge capacitor getting drained...learn from this and live with it. Main Everlasting Vendetta Veteran Member of the Stain Alliance
j0sephine	Posted - 2003.07.27 15:03:00 - [55] "What's a good e-mail utility instead of outlook?" Forte Agent makes a valuable e-mail/news client IMO... it might be slightly outdated at this moment, but in practice very secure.
Ragnar	Posted - 2003.07.27 16:04:00 - [56] Thanks for the supporting comments here. Notice I didn't accuse anyone of the virus attacks so there is no need for apology. All I am stating is facts. I and other executives of Taggart have been receiving viruses in "spurts" over the last 6-8 months. It has been 2 months with no vuiruses emailed at all until yesterday, a few hours after our engagement with this front company. Yes, it could certainly be a coincidence. My computer was not infected since NAV filters everything out for me. Calladen and others were not so lucky. Jericho, thanks for your support. I understand your emphasis on role-playing and that is exactly why I usually have the Prophet do all of our public relations, to keep everything in role-playing mode. However, when we are attacked via exploits and viruses, we have to step out of role-playing to describe what exactly is going on in-game. I say it is an exploit for the following reason, which I believe is perfectly rational: We were not allowed to fire on the battleship that was trying to cap drain us, otherwise we would be killed by Concord. Effectively, they figured out a workaround to make Concord their ally, since an attack on them would have been an attack on Concord. - Ragnar Danneskj÷ld Taggart Transdimensional, Inc. http://www.taggarttransdimensional.com
Femme Fatal	Posted - 2003.07.27 16:07:00 - [57] Sorry Ragnar but: Just after that, I received no less that 11 (eleven) email viruses in my inbox, as did several other executives of Taggart. I use this computer also for work, for my family, and for my son. It is absolutely ridiculous that anyone would do this, but it is typical of the enemies of Taggart. Is sounds pretty accusing to me.
Stavros	Posted - 2003.07.27 16:36:00 - [58] Jeeeez bunch of whiners... LMAO Stav PS: COMEBACK SCRAPYARD JACK I WUB J00! -- "Keep On Flaming Lamers, Like Your Ships Did When We Ended You"
SirMolle	Posted - 2003.07.27 16:49:00 - [59] [18:37] {Calladen} Hi Molle. [18:38] {Calladen} One of our indys reported you guys have a big fleet up in Venal. Thats where alot of TTI are located. [18:38] {Calladen} We just wanted to say hello. [18:38] {Molle} Some darn fools trying to run us out of Venal, whats this venal alliance crap? [18:39] {Calladen} Its an alliance of sorts - TTI has an NAP with them (non agression pact). ----------------------------- [22:23] {Ragnar} I have a Dominix from Padron Inc in my sights [22:23] {Ragnar} In Ibura [22:24] {Ragnar} Now in Yoma [22:25] {Ragnar} No Isinokka [22:25] {Ragnar} following him - are you getting this? [22:27] {Ragnar} 4life is flying it [22:28] {Ragnar} I'm in a fully loaded Apocalypse want me to take him down for you? (I am on an alternate char) I expect full compensation for the TTI ships you blew up for no reason today [22:28] {Ragnar} hellllloooooooo [22:32] {Ragnar} he is now in Piak [22:33] {Ragnar} obviously headed towards the syndicate region --------------------- Pardon INC is a member of Venal Alliance, see how the NAP's you have serve you with TTI. 'nuff said.
Shintai	Posted - 2003.07.27 17:04:00 - [60] HARRR 2 TTI Apocs, and still me camping you. And Smeegle was going limp. HARRR The bigmouths from yesterday lack action today! Abstraction and Transcendence: Nature, Shintai, and Geometry
Shamrock	Posted - 2003.07.27 17:14:00 - [61] Well, I personally get atleast one virus email per week. It hits my [email protected] account. Since I am apart of many forums and gaming sites. It's easy for anyone to get my email. They do it in mass quantity from the complete website. That is why I only use [email protected] on sites. I don't care about the viri because I know it's apart of the internet. I am just very careful. It sounds like to me Ragnar that everyone in your corp mailing list needs to clean up at the same time. Maybe that will help.
Karunel Hagensry	Posted - 2003.07.27 17:23:00 - [62] Well, you know that I don't like TTi much either (), but I absolutely agree with the original demand/statement from Ragnar, games are games and breaking the rules or even worse using out of the game tactics (If virus'ing can be called a "tactic") is sad and deserves a serious response. - Karunel Hagensray Ex- Journalist
Shintai	Posted - 2003.07.27 17:37:00 - [63] Nobody mailed TTI any viruses, nor even mailed TTI at all. And I joined Going Limp and started poding TTI. I wonder what they whine over now. Podding outside US primetime? Abstraction and Transcendence: Nature, Shintai, and Geometry
Halo Jones	Posted - 2003.07.27 18:00:00 - [64] can u not trace the virus email to an ip orignator and email the company repsonsible? most of the time if u physcially ring teh technical support team adn talk em thru what u wnat they can hunt the git sender down rather swiftly. and since TTi staff reported getting muliple virii mail eahc month, i don't see this draining incident as being a particular reason for more to come thru, at least they were open and attacked u in game and made no secret of attacking you and continue to do so Oberon Incorporated.
Molly	Posted - 2003.07.27 19:31:00 - [65] Omg, what a thread is this? You have a virus in your mailbox? How about a more secure mail user agent / operating system? You have been attacked by a module not considered as agressive? How about blaming CCP for their stupidity? --- "Molly > funny thing is, if they warn me for attacking in 1.0, why does a GM wish me luck doing so? Jash Illian > perverse sense of humor? Molly > lol Jash Illian > honestly tho, because he prolly doesn't know bships"
Calladen Nimitz	Posted - 2003.07.27 20:55:00 - [66] It has been two months since the last virus incident. Ragnar is correct we don't know who did this. I will be turning over what I have to someone who can do something about it in the morning and hopefully the guilty party will be identified. It could just be a "coincidence" that this massive virus attack yesterday happend immediately after Femme's ship was destroyed - we don't know. What I do know is that several countries (Council of Europe) signed an agreement in 2001 to vigoursly prosecute and share information in computer virus cases such as this particular virus. The United States, Canada and nineteen EU countries signed the agreement. There are two possible locations this originated and both have signed this agreement. If it isn't in the US it will be sent to the Information Technology Crime Unit of the National Criminal Investigations Department (NCID) of the Swedish Police Force which has authority in surveillance and investigating IT crime (the other possibility based on a friends deciphering of the header information). Either way the issue will be taken care of tomorrow so I'm not going to worry about it. Have a nice day. Calladen
Endureth	Posted - 2003.07.27 20:56:00 - [67] Edited by: Endureth on 27/07/2003 21:00:58 I think it should be situational. Here is a set of rules for security reductions that make sense to me. 1. If you target another ship, you SHOULD NOT take a security hit. 2. If you target and fire on another ship, you SHOULD take a security hit. 3. If you are targetted by another ship and you fire first, you SHOULD take a security hit. 4. If you target another ship and use a cap drain, warp scrambler or stasis web, you SHOULD NOT take a security hit. 5. If you are targeted by another ship that uses cap drain, warp scrambler or stasis web on you, you SHOULD NOT take a security hit if you fire first. Add friends. 6. If you fire on a ship that a corp mate, a gang member or an ally (when it is implemented) is firing at or being fired upon by, you fall under the same rules your corp mate, gang member or ally is currently subject to. Anyone care to add some other situations? Keep in mind it has to be simple and clear cut enough for the game to understand and make the correct assumption. -E
Calladen Nimitz	Posted - 2003.07.27 21:01:00 - [68] Endurth, 3 and 4 kind of contradict one another by saying #3 ISNT hostile but if your the victim of #3 you can fire and that isn't hostile. Personally I think those ideas are fantastic. Someone who is the victim of a cap drain, web, scram has to be able to defend themselves somehow. I wouldn't mind #3 IF #4 we're also implimented. Great ideas ! Calladen

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