I'm sure this makes sense to you....

So you expect new players, who have no idea how the game really works, to organize and protect themselves against players with much greater SP, much deeper pockets, and greater numbers and organization?

Did you even stop to consider anything, other than your own need to grief noobs?

... and here we have a problem: high-sec doesn't provide "protection". Your attacker will only meet CONCORD for a little slap in the face after he killed your ship. And insurance doesn't cover T2/faction/pirate ships and modules. All your losses are only your losses.

So nope. Adding some payments into high-sec won't make sense.

they have it already.

next question?

say it to miners who don't tank their hulks.
say it to freighter pilots who get ganked (and will be when Burn Jita NNN will come)
say it to pilots who get ganked "for fun"

yes, CONCORD removes some part of dangers but this is not "protection". This is more "limitation of dangers". It's like speed limit on roads: you still can lose your car on this road. However speed limitation makes is somehow rarer (but totally possible).

Technically protection = prevention of agression + compensation of loss.
High-sec does not provide prevention and does not provide compensation.
So nope, i can't agree that high-sec provides protection.

Can't agree.
- NPC farming: better than missions + pirate spawns
- mining: (before the bots) better than in high-sec (ABC and all this stuff) + officer spawns
- exploration: better than in high-sec
- PvP: unlimited thus better
- SOV: not in high-sec
- player owned outposts: not in high-sec (don't forget about taxes for services)
- PI: better than in high-sec + POCOs (lett taxes for you + taxing other people into your wallet)
- ..?

And if we speak about "how better it is and how better it should be" then we need to use some numbers i guess. Without pure numbers this can't be discussed properly.

2 years ago i was mining in 0.0. made lots of money. No one even tried to speak "0.0 mining is bad" that days. What happened next?

Maybe ABC came to high-sec? Nope
Maybe megacyte, zydrin, etc... do not needed anymore? Nope

Market. Supply/demand. Reduce supply and you get it more lucrative.

BTW: what about officer/faction/transpost spawns? Do high-sec has better of it?

Quick, I think 10001 players in High-Sec could actually use a bulletproof vest (with ceramic plates even), as CONCORD does jack for protection. By the time CONCORD gets to you, you're dead, and the other dude is just waiting for his cheap gank ship to get blown up (he loses nothing, as NPCs don't pod him, either).

If CONCORD really was about protection, they would've been like my dad who was a cop...right there, with a weapon right at the ear of an offender. Move. Dead.

So this is something for CCP to think about. How much REAL protection do they offer, and how many players they really want subscribed. Because they can just look at the 800lb gorilla in the room for ideas on what's popular 10 years running.

Time is money, friend.

I guess he already knew about them being an infantryman in Korea and Vietnam.

Like if you don't respond fast enough your buddies and you are going to die. Which is why he got the bronze star in Korea, by knocking out a machinegun nest that was pinning down the squad.

And where did these players come from again (as MMOs share many of the same players)?

Do you know how many who play EvE and playing WoW?

You bet it's more than the "vets" in numbers.

No MMO is a an island.

They would be nice to have in EvE. Having them jail or even kill Goons and likewise pirates would be a blessing...and you know many would be rooting for the cleanup, too.



Knock, knock: you're playing EvE.

I hope you don't think it's reality.

You also are claiming CONCORD can't be tanked.

Ask your Goon gatecampers how uninformed that remark is!

You can definitely tank their guns, especially if going for a prized target.

On any actions that Concord has deemed unacceptable, they will respond by destroying the offender's ship. The offender's pod is not touched. It is considered an exploit to dodge Concord's response.

And not only you "bad guys" adapt - everyone does it. Every time.

I don't get it. You mean policeman will stay and wait until you attacked/dead and then take weapon of "bad guy" and let him out independent of attack result?
And your "protection of MrPresident" doesn't include analyzing of possible attacks, defensive measurements up to direct cover of his body and all this stuff? You mean i can get right next to him, put my gun to his head and no one will even pay attention up to my shot?

I can't say about your USA laws but here in Russia we have different rules for different crimes. At least you won't get out just thrown your weapon after attack. And known outlaws always tracked. And police will try to recover my stolen stuff (at least this is written in laws).

The CONCORD only reacts to happened aggression. It won't try to rescue your stolen stuff. It won't track known criminals (it will but only 15 minutes, LoL).

Even on this terms i don't see reasons to pay anything for this service on top of my taxes.

i think you overestimate your "bulletproof vest" effect.

RL:
- How many suicide attacks happened last 100 years? Lots
- How many presidents were killed? I know about 1 (Cennedy). Maybe it was someone another too tho.

You really sure by only killing attacker they could get this result? I'm sure - it's not.

Eve online:
- How many hulks were killed last year? Lots.
- How many suicide gankers stopped their business because of CONCORD (read: in the fear of loosing this precious and f... expensive catalyst)? I'm pretty sure - not one.

Result: i still have to see any reasons to additional payments.

i guess you have never finished 1 lvl4 mission. Or maybe have it forgottten completely. I will refresh your memory:
- different NPC (damage/tank profiles)
- mission location few jumps away
- different EWAR from NPC (jamming, tracking disruption, sensor dampening, ...)
- ...?

Compare it to:
- 1 NPC type
- predefined and well-known damage/tank profile
- predefined and well-known EWAR
- no jumps outside of your system
- faction spawns
- escalation (at least there was escalations from Drone Horde in 2011-2012) which leads to great bonus

Add here effort about salvaging/looting: jumps from station to mission system, gates and all this stuff.

And stop using incursions please. Only small part of players do it. The main ISK source is lvl4s.

don't like PvP? Welcome to high-sec then. Don't ask CCP to reward you to having PvP in areas MADE for PvP.
Reward of PvP: your killboard and killed enemies. If this is not what would you like - don't do it.

If SOV is a cost then welcome back to high-sec. Leave 0.0 space to those who will love to mark that space by their name.

For me personally: SOV is a reward. This is mark: I OWN THE SPACE. THIS IS MY EMPIRE.

Outpost is like SOV but better: nothing can change the fact that you have BUILT it. I have one outpost i've built in 0.0. It's under some barbarians control but i don't care: i built it! And some time of its story it has had my name on it. This is REWARD.

You compare it to NPC station? Why? 0.0 is not empire. There was no outposts in 0.0 before players started to build. This is your station. You rule it. You don't care about ruling the space? What the hell you do in space MADE for it?

there is 2 options:
- you have never did any PI
- everything has changed since September 2012

Because as far as i remember in high-sec you pay taxes (crazily big) and in 0.0 you have your own PoCo where you can tax other players. When i was building my outpost i used 0% of tax. It made me pay for 1 launch 0ISK, while with 2.5% i paid 5 million. In high-sec it was even more expensive (according to prices).

Add here better planets in 0.0 and ....

Yes, "marginally better"

This one seems weird...

You can gank in a catalyst within a week, yet need to skill for over what, 2 months? to get into a Proteus. Let alone afford the hull/fit.

That would also seem like Concord, in a bassackwards way, is protecting the ganker not the miner in helping "guide" the new ganker in how to effectively gank while minimizing costs.

If you are going to quote me, use the quote function and please don't misrepresent something I said when you were the one who said it. I'll show you how to quote it properly...

Concord forcing people to be economically smart in their ganking is not a deterrent sir. Or maybe NO's Knights are doing it wrong? Is that what you imply?

Because if Concord did not exist, and we only had crimewatch as "protection" we would see FLEETS of people warping around and checking areas for suspect/criminal flags and lots of podkills.

Don't believe me? Visit your local trade hub in highsec.

Now talk about any costs to minimize.

Gah do you even READ what you type?

Another related point, in many places if law enforcement entities have sufficient reason to believe an individual or group has intent to commit a crime they are allowed and required to intervene beforehand to prevent that crime from occurring.

(simplifying)

completely agree
that's why RL-like "pay for protection to CONCORD" doesn't work in Eve

CONCORD doesn't onto it yet. So the question: why should it?

it's very questionable. Income = ISK. Can you provide any values for "safety" measured in ISK?

If you can't then how do you know that bold part is true?

What would you tweak without real numbers?

Weren't you the one who brought up the Police to solidify your stance on Concord "protecting"?

Wrong.

By the time CONCORD gets to who they're suppose to "serve and protect", they're dead and the assailant is just waiting to die. He accomplished what he set off to do, and wasting nothing in a throw away ship.

Pointless "protection".

No.

Had a drunk neighbor who wouldn't leave my yard. Called the cops, they arrived within 10mins. Cop asked the dude to get out of the car. He refused. Cop pulled out his Glock, pointed it behind his ear, and asked him to get out of the car. The dude carefully did.

Last summer some neighbors and whoever started shouting and carrying out a scene before my yard. Shouting; throwing their jackets on the street; and it getting nastier by the minute. Called the cops, 10mins later, 3 patrol cars literally screeched to a halt before them. Told them to stop, went to the neighbor (still screaming) and told her point blank to shut up or she'll be arrested. 19 people were out there...19...and damn if their antics was going to hurt my mom. The scene was dispersed, but I'm sure the cops would've used whatever means at their disposal to stop the situation before it truly got out of hand.

CONCORD in EvE, arrives 3 days late, is like Barney Fife (complete with one trusty bullet in his pocket) and could handle but one player at a time.

No, it's not policing at all.

All of them didn't face any charges.

And what is confusing you is -- the examples shows you what cops actually do day-to-day to keep peace.

When folks talk about policing, it's cops who arrive on time and remedy the problem (either by getting the offender away; arrests; or if needed using deadly force), in a timely fashion.

I never had to wait longer than 10mins for a cop to be at my door. That's RL times. Ingame it should be instant.

Devs know where the draw the line. They see the results when it's not done. Newbies are protected until they leveled/skilled enough to fight on their own.

Otherwise, police need to be actual police.

Not only will they arrest you for commiting a crime, but also will arrest you if they suspect you of planning to commit a crime.

I could list all the cases where the FBI has arrested tons of people on conspiracy to commit crimes they themelves facilitated the criminals to actually plan to commit. (Like where the FBI tricked the persons into believing they were going to sell explosives to them and then arrested the person on conspiracy to commit terrorism before the act ever happened even if there were no explosives to begin with).

As in.... It would be like concord blowing up ships because you locked someone. Sure you might have just been scanning them, but they needed to punish you just to be sure you were conspiring to commit a henious act.

So no. Concord isn't like real life police in that respect.

Personally, I would prefer that our police authorities not arrest people for theoretical crime, but the truth is that they do and that is called crime prevention.

See there is a quite a big difference between real world police and Concord. It would be silly to try to make the two similiar.

That said, law enforcement itself believes that its job is to prevent crime, not just prosecute it.....

Cops wouldn't have known it was any crime until they arrived. None were cited, so by the law itself no crime occurred. They did get a scare of their life though.

Cops intimidate all the time, as it helps to PREVENT crime. My dad held a transpasser into the air until cops arrived before. Poor boy must've dropped his load, when dad berated him as dad looks/acts every bit the DI he was.

One thing is for sure where I live law and order is truly law and order. And we like it that way and pay for it...33 cops per 1000 residents. Why less than 10min response times.

So when I see CONCORD in EvE it's pretty weak, slow and ineffective.

I think we know which one fits Concord better.

To "deter". And to "punish".

Has nothing to do with the victim, has everything to do with the transgressor. They enforce the law. For the good of Empire's society. Look, I linked the dictionary's terms for those words. If you don't want to listen to me or think I'm right, fine. Don't listen to me.

Read the godamn dictionary for yourself.

proGÇótect (pr+Ö-êt+¢kt)

v.t.
1. to defend or guard from attack, invasion, loss, insult, etc.; cover; shield.
2. to guard (an industry) from foreign competition by imposing import duties.
v.i.
3. to provide, or be capable of providing, protection.


Thesaurus Legend: Synonyms Related Words Antonyms
Verb1.
defend - be on the defensive; act against an attack

Because chaos is the enemy of order. It is unwanted. therefore discouraged from being present.

Because they want steeper punishments for those that transgress.

Protection comes as a by product, but does not define what Concord is.

So using Concord for protection is bannable? Just to be clear.


I find it odd that concord, being used for protection, is cause for a ban if you use it for protection. Yet manipulating their response times is not. Kind of shows that they are not for protection, but retribution.

Thanks.

All questions can only be answered by experience and/or facts.

I have never autopiloted from Amarr to Jita with no Concord.

Cannot answer the question.

I'll leave the "if's" to you.

Sure, just remove concord and I'll give it a go.

So you can deter but not prevent? Is that what you're saying? Your post is a tad contradictory.

So it's not highsec right? Keep in mind I was "born" in Amarr but don't frequent there or in Jita too much. I am not familiar with the areas. I have gone on WT roams from Dodixie to Jita and have not seen anything to give me cause for alarm though, but that was in a small gang as well so /shrug

So to bring everything back up to speed... Lord Zim says Concord Protects, Baltec1 says it's bannable to use
Concord for protection, Ruby says Concord doesn't prevent, but deters, and Murk says that Concord is a cost assessment for risk vs reward.

And Rancor is HS without Concord.

Weird ******* thread.

Protection comes as a by product, but does not define what Concord is.

Think of that statement and how that would apply to say.... development of nuclear arms in the world as of right now (won't name specific countries but you should see where I'm going with this).

Then go ahead and say (enter country name) is trying to be a "protector".

Which part of the hauler provides deterrence?

That empty hauler is the level or protection, gained through risk vs reward since anytime you are in a hauler near a trade hub you'd be naive to think you haven't been scanned down.

If I left Jita with an empty hauler chances are I would not be ganked.

Exactly.

I can orbit Jita or Dodixie with an empty bestower all day.

Fixed.

Rancer isn't highsec. This is risk versus reward. You wanting to roam around in a hauler in Rancer to which you said was a very busy and camped place, has nothing to do with Concord as it is lowsec and out of their jurisdiction.

Keep on topic please.

You are missing half the formula. I don't need to leave highsec to prove it. I only need to put something worth something to a ganker in the hold to render Concord a nonfactor. Barely need to undock, let alone jump anywhere else.

With concord-
Empty hauler- most likely safe.
Full hauler- most likely dead.

Concord provides a risk to pirate/gank operations. Not protection.

I could be in an impairor, and if you wanted to kill me, you would. In one volley. Concord could not stop that. They could punish you, yes. But not stop it.

That's not protection.

And my empty hold, by making me less attractive of a target, is a far greater deterrent than Concord. Concord is an absolute. Not a risk. Not a chance. Loot fairies, me surviving through logi, or speed or tank is a risk. A chance.

Go reread Ruby. A few pages back there was a few posts about dictionary terms.

Not MY definition.

I don't understand the question. Are you saying highsec and lowsec should be the same? Or do you want me to agree they are different?

a-+venge
/+Ö-êvenj/
Verb

Inflict harm in return for (an injury or wrong done to oneself or another): "his determination to avenge the murder of his brother".
Inflict such harm on behalf of (oneself or someone else previously wronged or harmed): "we must avenge our dead".

Synonyms
revenge - retaliate - requite

Concord does this.

Definition of PUNISH
transitive verb
1
a : to impose a penalty on for a fault, offense, or violation
b : to inflict a penalty for the commission of (an offense) in retribution or retaliation
2
a : to deal with roughly or harshly
b : to inflict injury on : hurt
intransitive verb
: to inflict punishment

Concord also does this.

pro-+tect
/pr+Ö-êtekt/
Verb

Keep safe from harm or injury: "he protected her from the attack"; "certain vitamins may protect against heart disease".
Aim to preserve (a threatened plant or animal species) by legislating against collecting or hunting.

Synonyms
defend - guard - safeguard - shelter - shield - preserve

Punish or avenge is not in here.

Which one do you think best describes Concord.

Just ask a direct question. Don't assume.

I'm saying Concord does not protect. It punishes. My choices in cargo provide a better deterrent to would be gankers than Concord does.

Protection comes as a by product, but does not define what Concord is.

Please continue reading past the part I quoted. I expanded on it. There is no 50% chance to losing your ship to Concord. It's 100%. If you fire on me in highsec (without any sort of wardec or flag bypassing that rule) Concord will blow you up. Hence why it isn't seen as a risk. It's a guarantee. It's a cost. The risk comes from the loot I may or may not drop in my wreck.

Ganking itself is a gamble yes. We already both have agreed on that to many points. The ship being at risk is what we argued.

The ganker bets that he can blow up his victim before he gets blown up by Concord. That the victim will not survive his attack.

He isn't in any sort of agreement with the victim if that's what you mean. It's not a duel with stakes. That would be a "bet" or a "gamble" in the true sense of the word you are trying to use.