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Timothia	Posted - 2005.09.08 10:21:00 - [1] Has anyone else noticed that since the last big patch the amount of pirates has increased massively? I think its cos of the gate changes that have been made, it is now very hard to travel to a lot of systems without going trough a 0.4 system or without doing 22jumps instead of 6. This is ruining the game for a lot of people cos no-one wants to spent that much time getting somewhere. I think CCP should have a rethink about the system changes
Nafri	Posted - 2005.09.08 10:23:00 - [2] its just that lots of pirates came back to empire Your bla bla hit bla bla for bla bla damage. Wanna have some bubu now?
rig0r	Posted - 2005.09.08 10:31:00 - [3] I like it. Makes empire much more interesting www.eve-killboard.net
Baldour Ngarr	Posted - 2005.09.08 10:32:00 - [4] Originally by: Nafri its just that lots of pirates came back to empire So the patch DID suck. It was supposed to be designed to push people out into 0.0; it's pulling them back in instead. ____________________________________ I tried strip mining, but I lost, and it's cold flying around in space naked.
Timothia	Posted - 2005.09.08 10:32:00 - [5] Edited by: Timothia on 08/09/2005 10:32:25 Originally by: rig0r I like it. Makes empire much more interesting you are in a merc corp, of course you do
Timothia	Posted - 2005.09.08 10:34:00 - [6] Originally by: Baldour Ngarr So the patch DID suck. It was supposed to be designed to push people out into 0.0; it's pulling them back in instead. My point entirely CCP please sort this out
Nero Scuro	Posted - 2005.09.08 10:38:00 - [7] Originally by: Timothia Originally by: Baldour Ngarr So the patch DID suck. It was supposed to be designed to push people out into 0.0; it's pulling them back in instead. My point entirely CCP please sort this out No it wasn't. You were saying empire now sucks because of travelling times are longer. He's saying something different entirely. The only people who hate the NWO are the people who think easier + quicker = fun. _________ I'm going to kill you in the face!
Lifewire	Posted - 2005.09.08 10:40:00 - [8] Nafri is right - pirates were nerfed. Some quitted, some went to 0.0, sone joined alliances. Now that empire is not a nearly 100% safe space anymore, we come back. To be true: i don¦t see the benefit of having a safe empire. Pirates are a counterbalance to really rich economic players that have billions of ISK. These players have to hire escorts (pay other poorer PVPers) or pay tollings (pay poorer pirates). However - these players need to loose ISK. They were able and allowed to make ISK for 2 years at absolutly no risk in empire and now it¦s time to introduce "the real EVE" to them. Safety has a price...they have to hire pirate hunters or escort pilots if they want to enter more profitable low sec. They deserve to get ganked if they don¦t interact with other players in a massive multiplayer game. Try a TDG spawn or the TDG complexes in Pure Blind, Syndicate or empire.
Timothia	Posted - 2005.09.08 10:41:00 - [9] No what i'm saying is empire isn't meant for pvp, 0.0 is. So pirates who want to kill people can do it out there. The problem is they are just too chicken, they sit out of range of gates sniping people with their ship directed towards warp and their finger on the chicken switch.
Timothia	Posted - 2005.09.08 10:43:00 - [10] Originally by: Lifewire To be true: i don¦t see the benefit of having a safe empire. Pirates are a counterbalance to really rich economic players that have billions of ISK. These players have to hire escorts (pay other poorer PVPers) or pay tollings (pay poorer pirates). However - these players need to loose ISK. They were able and allowed to make ISK for 2 years at absolutly no risk in empire and now it¦s time to introduce "the real EVE" to them. Safety has a price...they have to hire pirate hunters or escort pilots if they want to enter more profitable low sec. They deserve to get ganked if they don¦t interact with other players in a massive multiplayer game. What about corp and players that are newer and don't have the finances or firepower to fight back?
Jonathan Davis	Posted - 2005.09.08 10:54:00 - [11] Originally by: Timothia No what i'm saying is empire isn't meant for pvp, 0.0 is. So pirates who want to kill people can do it out there. The problem is they are just too chicken, they sit out of range of gates sniping people with their ship directed towards warp and their finger on the chicken switch. Where did you read that? Who told you? Nowhere and noone. Eve is a PvP game, (note: that doesnt just mean combat), expecting to not ever having to indulge in PvP, forced or not, in such a game is just blatent foolishness imo. How long have you been playing? as you seem to have a very limited experience of pirates, probably from the one time you were ganked by a sniper camp.
Layrex	Posted - 2005.09.08 11:02:00 - [12] Whenever I do go to empire, and when I have to make a trip for whatever reason, it's so rare that I run into gatecamps. The ratio of gatecamps to low sec gates must be tiny. Or i'm just lucky. ------------------------------
Unbeleever	Posted - 2005.09.08 11:03:00 - [13] Originally by: Timothia Originally by: Lifewire To be true: i don¦t see the benefit of having a safe empire. Pirates are a counterbalance to really rich economic players that have billions of ISK. These players have to hire escorts (pay other poorer PVPers) or pay tollings (pay poorer pirates). However - these players need to loose ISK. They were able and allowed to make ISK for 2 years at absolutly no risk in empire and now it¦s time to introduce "the real EVE" to them. Safety has a price...they have to hire pirate hunters or escort pilots if they want to enter more profitable low sec. They deserve to get ganked if they don¦t interact with other players in a massive multiplayer game. What about corp and players that are newer and don't have the finances or firepower to fight back? Lifewire is pretty much spot on and if your corp/you are to weak to defend yourself in low sec empire staqy out till you can. Im not being mean but it has been said 1000 times before, I personnaly dont snipe but I hunt in low sec and 0.0. But the tools are there for you to survive in this game it aint WOW. Stay in empire till you are ready to venture out, the patch was not intended to allow noobs free passage to low sec space, or less dangerous passage to low sec, just more ways in thats all. For me... Group therapy is a 30 pack of BEER!! Then all of the voices are satisfied.
Lifewire	Posted - 2005.09.08 11:50:00 - [14] Quote: What about corp and players that are newer and don't have the finances or firepower to fight back? First of all you dont need a BS to kill a pirate battleship at a 0.4 gate. If its tanking the sentry guns this BS is already in big trouble by nature of sentry guns. All you need is a frig or cruiser to hold him warpsrambled. Never forget: sentry guns hurt nearly like 2 BS. This means a tanker is under heavy fire! He wont tank forever! A frig with a warpsrambler can easily be the end! If the pirate is a sniper, you also dont need a BS to kill him. The key would be to get close to him since snipers are very very weak in close combat. A Thorax or an Enyo could easily finish a lonely sniper or at least make him warp away. So you see: all you need to counter pirates is to grow a pair of balls and attack them. You shouldnt forget that pirates will probably have good items fitted - they risk maybe more than 100 mil ISK camping a gate. If you ome along in a Thorax you risk 7-8 mil ISK, while your chances to win vs a pirate are good to very good. Now lets talk about pirate groups. A small weak new corp wont be able to handle those professional farmers. Contact professional piratehunters like Celestial Apocalypse or Cataclysm Enterprises. They will demand cash. But they are also happy if they can help new players, since they love to roleplay the "good guys". If you dont get help you can also try to make deals with the pirates. The key is: interact! It¦s a massive multiplayergame! Ships with squares are real human and no stupid NPCs. Try a TDG spawn or the TDG complexes in Pure Blind, Syndicate or empire.
Agnar Koladrov	Posted - 2005.09.08 12:00:00 - [15] Originally by: Lifewire Quote: What about corp and players that are newer and don't have the finances or firepower to fight back? First of all you dont need a BS to kill a pirate battleship at a 0.4 gate. If its tanking the sentry guns this BS is already in big trouble by nature of sentry guns. All you need is a frig or cruiser to hold him warpsrambled. Never forget: sentry guns hurt nearly like 2 BS. This means a tanker is under heavy fire! He wont tank forever! A frig with a warpsrambler can easily be the end! If the pirate is a sniper, you also dont need a BS to kill him. The key would be to get close to him since snipers are very very weak in close combat. A Thorax or an Enyo could easily finish a lonely sniper or at least make him warp away. So you see: all you need to counter pirates is to grow a pair of balls and attack them. You shouldnt forget that pirates will probably have good items fitted - they risk maybe more than 100 mil ISK camping a gate. If you ome along in a Thorax you risk 7-8 mil ISK, while your chances to win vs a pirate are good to very good. Now lets talk about pirate groups. A small weak new corp wont be able to handle those professional farmers. Contact professional piratehunters like Celestial Apocalypse or Cataclysm Enterprises. They will demand cash. But they are also happy if they can help new players, since they love to roleplay the "good guys". If you dont get help you can also try to make deals with the pirates. The key is: interact! It¦s a massive multiplayergame! Ships with squares are real human and no stupid NPCs. Uhhh, how many times have you seen a non pvp setup equipped WITH a warpscrambler? Most of the times there isn`t enough space to, also equip defencive modules. Maybe on bs`s there is but then not everyone flies them
Derron Bel	Posted - 2005.09.08 12:07:00 - [16] Quote: If the pirate is a sniper, you also dont need a BS to kill him. The key would be to get close to him since snipers are very very weak in close combat. A Thorax or an Enyo could easily finish a lonely sniper or at least make him warp away. You're joking right? What difference does it make? Snipers have safespots, and as soon as you leave, they'll be back. Even if you survive the 200km run through the fire you're taking, they'll just jump out, or finish you off with drones. About all you can do is use cloaker tactics, maybe a group with a covert-ops in the lead. But that doesn't even matter, since most of the time they're popping low-wealth and low-skill players who don't stand a chance. -==- Holy-Jim> as you know, surprise is the key to victory.....surprise! LooseCannoN> ahh! LooseCannoN> my plans have been foiled!
Tyto	Posted - 2005.09.08 12:11:00 - [17] Originally by: Timothia No what i'm saying is empire isn't meant for pvp, 0.0 is. Ohhhhhhh! So all that 0.9 - 0.1 description doesn't actually mean anything it's just window dressing! So what you're saying is we have "safe" space and "scary" space. 0.1 to 1.0 is "safe" space. WRONG! Why do you think you get a warning when you leave 0.5? Pirates make my life difficult, but if CCP ever took theam out I'd be upset. It's a career choice. Spend some of your profit on some escorts, or a scout; get a gang of mercs together and pay them to remove the pirates, all those things add more to the game. You want to remove things. Some folks would remove everything from this game that makes it fun. If you want a "safe" business sim, go and play Railroad Tycoon. /rant off "Dulce Bellum Inexpertis"
Lifewire	Posted - 2005.09.08 12:16:00 - [18] Quote: Uhhh, how many times have you seen a non pvp setup equipped WITH a warpscrambler? Most of the times there isn`t enough space to, also equip defencive modules. Maybe on bs`s there is but then not everyone flies them I saw a lot of PVP-setups without warpscramblers - for example pure ganksetups that kill before people warp. What you want to say is: a victim is not prepared, while the pirate is. Prepare yourself then! The pirate is under heavy fire at a gate. If he snipes he is weak in close combat. How much help do you need to be able to fight him??? Should sentry guns be stronger, should they also jam the pirate or simply instakill him him or what? The pirateship already fights with an extreme handicap while sentry guns put heavy fire on it. How much more handicap pirates should get? How about totally removing pirates from game? Would this be enough??? Try a TDG spawn or the TDG complexes in Pure Blind, Syndicate or empire.
H20L	Posted - 2005.09.08 12:18:00 - [19] Edited by: H20L on 08/09/2005 12:19:03 i have to admit that since the patch and the gate changes i have seen more player rats around, but many of them are coming back for stock or something most proberly.. i have ran into 1 gate sniper but i gave him what for and he legged it and left me alone whilst i was in my BC.. but they do pick on memebers with no isk or hardly any or smaller ships as it's easy pickings.. ive been podded by rats 5+ times ive lost alot of throax's due to going to ammar space and having to fly through 0.4 and 0.3 just to get cheaper parts.. but paying less usually theres a reason such as pod area's so i think ill stay out in the safe zones.. it was 13 jumps from my home in oursulaert to place in ammar now its 22 [this could be down to i ma have set auto pilot up wrong etc] also a way to combat PVP rats is to use and buy the Insta gate Bookmarks it works wonders.. as by time they've startgetted u your already jumping H20L Fly safe everyone
sonofollo	Posted - 2005.09.08 12:23:00 - [20] sorry to burst youre bubble on apocolypse enterprises but they are now pirates themselves so take that name off the list. But even carry a warp scrambler on yorue industrial - if youre near sentry guns u may stand a chance of lcoking em in.
Drexciyian	Posted - 2005.09.08 12:25:00 - [21] Originally by: Baldour Ngarr Originally by: Nafri its just that lots of pirates came back to empire So the patch DID suck. It was supposed to be designed to push people out into 0.0; it's pulling them back in instead. nope, if theirs pirates in empire it gives people less excuse to avoid 0.0, besides i think alliances make it hard for the average empire player to go out into 0.0 than pirates anyways
Lifewire	Posted - 2005.09.08 12:28:00 - [22] Quote: sorry to burst youre bubble on apocolypse enterprises but they are now pirates themselves so take that name off the list. Its: Celestial Apocalypse Cataclism Enterprises Both corps are know pirate hunters and far far away from beeing pirates. Quote: But even carry a warp scrambler on yorue industrial - if youre near sentry guns u may stand a chance of lcoking em in. Nah...in an industrial you will simply die since you need ages to lock...i talk of taking revenge here, payback! You can come back in a Thorax and try to payback! Try a TDG spawn or the TDG complexes in Pure Blind, Syndicate or empire.
Nyphur	Posted - 2005.09.08 12:29:00 - [23] Yes, pirating has increased. It's awesome \m/,! I was blown to smitherines yesterday on my way home, it was pretty cool.
Agnar Koladrov	Posted - 2005.09.08 12:42:00 - [24] Originally by: Lifewire Edited by: Lifewire on 08/09/2005 12:21:10 Quote: Uhhh, how many times have you seen a non pvp setup equipped WITH a warpscrambler? Most of the times there isn`t enough space to, also equip defencive modules. Maybe on bs`s there is but then not everyone flies them I saw a lot of PVP-setups without warpscramblers - for example pure ganksetups that kill before people warp. What you want to say is: a victim is not prepared, while the pirate is. Prepare yourself then! The pirate is under heavy fire at a gate. If he snipes he is weak in close combat. How much help do you need to be able to fight him??? Should sentry guns be stronger, should they also jam the pirate or simply instakill him him or what? The pirateship already fights with an extreme handicap while sentry guns put heavy fire on it. How much more handicap pirates should get? How about totally removing pirates from game? Would this be enough??? As you say a victum is unprepared, basically yes, but they are only prepared in there minds cause they know there is always a chance. I have nothing against gatecamping, only that they are an annoyance, also they can be a REAL pain when they are 2 EVE years old and you are 3 EVE months old. Thing is, tec I cruisers (not frigs), are shot to pieces rather easy in PvP. I can tell first hand. So if was to fly a tec I cruiser to 0.3 to do some ratting and the gate was being camped I could be in a problem becuase my setup wouldn`t allow countermeaseure without sacrificing a good setup against the thing I came to do in the first place (ratting). And I think that also to do with game balance, how do you balance that, considering you go to 0.4/0.3 by yourself? You have a fair point about the centries, they help a lot, they do not need changing in my view. The problem is however: how do you balance a game, which allows piracy and where a real (big) gap is between veterans and "newer" (not talking real newbies) players skill, ship and equipment wise, when there becommes an unbalance between those two?
Danks	Posted - 2005.09.08 13:14:00 - [25] Originally by: Timothia No what i'm saying is empire isn't meant for pvp, 0.0 is. Wow, now that's gotta be one of the funniest things I've read on the forums in a while
Del Imbrhir	Posted - 2005.09.08 14:04:00 - [26] Actually, one point I find very interesting has been raised: There is 2 kinds of system: The 0.5 and above system (safe - if we exclude the lame npc pirates) the below O.5 system (unsafe because of 3 years old experienced pirate characters that makes the 0.5 as unsafe as 0.1 system for most other players) The idea that was proposed in the "gate campers" thread, that is having navy fleet ships randomly patrolling those areas could be a way of enhancing the gradual "unsafety"... The more unsafe a system would be, the less often a patrol would occur, with no patrol at all in 0.0. My 2 ISCents... Best regards, Del Imbrhir "Rebellion is the slave's nobelty."
Lifewire	Posted - 2005.09.08 14:17:00 - [27] Edited by: Lifewire on 08/09/2005 14:18:44 Quote: As you say a victum is unprepared, basically yes, but they are only prepared in there minds cause they know there is always a chance. I have nothing against gatecamping, only that they are an annoyance, also they can be a REAL pain when they are 2 EVE years old and you are 3 EVE months old. Thing is, tec I cruisers (not frigs), are shot to pieces rather easy in PvP. I can tell first hand. So if was to fly a tec I cruiser to 0.3 to do some ratting and the gate was being camped I could be in a problem becuase my setup wouldn`t allow countermeaseure without sacrificing a good setup against the thing I came to do in the first place (ratting). And I think that also to do with game balance, how do you balance that, considering you go to 0.4/0.3 by yourself? You have a fair point about the centries, they help a lot, they do not need changing in my view. The problem is however: how do you balance a game, which allows piracy and where a real (big) gap is between veterans and "newer" (not talking real newbies) players skill, ship and equipment wise, when there becommes an unbalance between those two? Beeing wasted at a gate makes you learn EVE. Everything in EVE can be countered....except the pure economic players that play EVE untouchable to sell ISK on Ebay. A cruiser is a powerfull ship. I know players that destroyed more battleships flying a cruiser than sitting in a battleships themselves. The key is to use the bad tracking of battleship-sized guns to your advantadge. If you just unlcoak at a gate and align in the direction of a Sniper-pirate-BS you shouldnt wonder about beeing hit very hard. But thats simply what 99% of the EVE players would do. Why should we pirates be your mentors and tell you how you would survive a sniper attack easily and even more: how you can totally defeat a pirate? What i can say is that a cruiser is a powerfull weapon...see Chode Rizoum here for example attacking a BS and a frig alone in a Thorax: Trax vs BS So, just admit: it¦s in yourself! Grow some balls and attack, learn even if you loose you gain experience. You cannot expect to win instantly if you fight experienced players. But once you win, you will feel great. Try a TDG spawn or the TDG complexes in Pure Blind, Syndicate or empire.
Agnar Koladrov	Posted - 2005.09.08 14:32:00 - [28] Edited by: Agnar Koladrov on 08/09/2005 14:38:00 Originally by: Del Imbrhir Actually, one point I find very interesting has been raised: There is 2 kinds of system: The 0.5 and above system (safe - if we exclude the lame npc pirates) the below O.5 system (unsafe because of 3 years old experienced pirate characters that makes the 0.5 as unsafe as 0.1 system for most other players) The idea that was proposed in the "gate campers" thread, that is having navy fleet ships randomly patrolling those areas could be a way of enhancing the gradual "unsafety"... The more unsafe a system would be, the less often a patrol would occur, with no patrol at all in 0.0. My 2 ISCents... I stand by this idea. It feels more natural to have a gradual transition beteween safe and unsafe in systems, where 0.4 is the beginning of open PvP, then bang safe > unsafe. Though these patrols need to be inpar with PC ships. Originally by: Lifewire So, just admit: it¦s in yourself! Grow some balls and attack, learn even if you loose you gain experience. You cannot expect to win instantly if you fight experienced players. But once you win, you will feel great. Yes it is party within peoples heads. Secondly there is also a real concern, take a look at all the discussions that were taking place in "ships & modules" section about underpowered tec I cruisers + some bc`s. Hence one of the reaseons why CCP started work on the MK2 project.
Spy4Hire	Posted - 2005.09.08 14:46:00 - [29] Edited by: Spy4Hire on 08/09/2005 15:12:15 Something I've noticed recently as well... Smartbombs don't work (won't activate) within 5k of a jumpgate. Not sure about the 7.5k versions, but I know mine can't be used within 5k of any gate any where. Have not tried near a station yet. As for snipers How about giving EW modules the same range that snipers enjoy? Make a low slot module that boosts the range of EW modules just like there are mods to boost weapons range? Snipers were never as much a problem prior to the EW nerf. They were there, yes, but there was a counter to them (a single tracking disruptor or targeting damp). Now they have no counterbalance so snipers are like weeds... everywhere. Offer sniping range on EW and the balance will be restored. Either by boosting EW modules themselves, or offering modules (which will affect the ship loading them! Another combat consideration for ship fittings). Current skills at max and flying EW specialized ships still cannot worry a sniper.. and that is completely broken.
Spy4Hire	Posted - 2005.09.08 15:10:00 - [30] Edited by: Spy4Hire on 08/09/2005 15:11:16 edit: double post
Lifewire	Posted - 2005.09.08 15:14:00 - [31] Quote: Yes it is party within peoples heads. Secondly there is also a real concern, take a look at all the discussions that were taking place in "ships & modules" section about underpowered tec I cruisers + some bc`s. Hence one of the reaseons why CCP started work on the MK2 project. Yes it¦s within peoples heads. Cruisers are fine...just know how to use. If CCP is forced to change something by the masses, then usually they missbalance the game. They would if they listen to people that say cruisers are weak. Check the Teddyforum, Chode, Zarquon and some others are great storywriters and people can always learn from this storys. Chode for example is on a cruiser trip these days and sinks BS after BS in his lousy T-rax...it¦s an evil shp. It¦s undertsatement, people think it¦s only a cruiser, but woot! It bites! Try a TDG spawn or the TDG complexes in Pure Blind, Syndicate or empire.
D2O LightWater	Posted - 2005.09.08 15:23:00 - [32] Originally by: Spy4Hire Edited by: Spy4Hire on 08/09/2005 15:12:15 Something I've noticed recently as well... Smartbombs don't work (won't activate) within 5k of a jumpgate. Not sure about the 7.5k versions, but I know mine can't be used within 5k of any gate any where. Have not tried near a station yet. As for snipers How about giving EW modules the same range that snipers enjoy? Make a low slot module that boosts the range of EW modules just like there are mods to boost weapons range? Snipers were never as much a problem prior to the EW nerf. They were there, yes, but there was a counter to them (a single tracking disruptor or targeting damp). Now they have no counterbalance so snipers are like weeds... everywhere. Offer sniping range on EW and the balance will be restored. Either by boosting EW modules themselves, or offering modules (which will affect the ship loading them! Another combat consideration for ship fittings). Current skills at max and flying EW specialized ships still cannot worry a sniper.. and that is completely broken. Ahem I take you have never heard of remote sensor dampners??
Malais	Posted - 2005.09.08 15:56:00 - [33] To me gate campers are not much of a big deal. The map TELLS you where they are. If you get caught in a gate camp, you were careless. However the roving pirate fleets are much harder to avoid. However when I'm in .4 and lower, I keep local up so I can see everyone insystem and who joins. Generally if 3+ people get added to local, I start getting suspicious and check out the info on the new guys/gals while recalling my drones. If they all have a low sec. rating I'm already headed out system. (via safespot). Eve gives you the tools to manage the danger, nothing is 100% safe, but if you watch and pay attention everything even 0.0 is managable.
nahtoh	Posted - 2005.09.08 17:31:00 - [34] Edited by: nahtoh on 08/09/2005 17:34:42 Originally by: Ikvar Maybe if there was more incentive for people to go in belts etc in lowsec or other areas where combat could occur, people wouldn't be forced to gate gank just to avoid having to search for targets for hours. So some/most Pilots won't go to lowsec belts incase they get jumped at gates warping in or the belts themselfs don't offer enuff vs the percived risk and pirates camp gates because its easir to find targets... Perhaps if the preditor/prey ratio was better in some areas the situation would improve... Or if the pirates fought each other for hunting grounds you would get your PvP fix and make things more intresting for yourselfs... Anyhow your want to attack other players does not trump their want not to get attacked. (note not asking for any game changes "I am not saying there should be capital punishment for stupidity, but why can`t we just take the safety labels off everything and let the problem solve itself" (credits to mcallister TCS)
nahtoh	Posted - 2005.09.08 17:33:00 - [35] Edited by: nahtoh on 08/09/2005 17:34:18 well next time i will actually click edit than quote when trying to add to my own post... "I am not saying there should be capital punishment for stupidity, but why can`t we just take the safety labels off everything and let the problem solve itself" (credits to mcallister TCS)
Famine Aligher'ri	Posted - 2005.09.08 18:03:00 - [36] Check the ranges on "Remote Sensor Damps". Sometimes they can't reach? Not to mention people sniping just go all sensor boosters when camping gates for Instant locks? ECM be better luck. But umm yeah chance? More pirates because it's easy to kill non-pvp people. It's also something you can do solo without having to be ganked by some weak alliance on a power trip. Not to hard to understand really. -Famine Aligher'ri, of The Aligher'ri
Kehmor	Posted - 2005.09.08 18:06:00 - [37] Timothia, are you an alt? This is the sort of thing one could ussually have an intelligent arguement about, however your lack of acceptance for any playing style other than your own is shocking. Pirates were nerfed massively in previous patches. I myself was so fed up that i took the trouble of raising my security status. CCP finally acknowledged that they had made the game too safe and are putting a bit of fun back itno it now. Why not just stay in 0.5+ if you can't handle it. Lower sec = more money, you have to counter that by making it higher risk too.
Ed Gein	Posted - 2005.09.08 19:01:00 - [38] Edited by: Ed Gein on 08/09/2005 19:01:28 The reason why random navy patrols wont work is because the logistics behind it are a complete nightmare. I can't even begin to imagine the coding that would have to be done on a server scale to make it work right. Plus, concord is insta death, is it really fair to have an insta-death patrol, that is random? You are basically insuring the pirate would lose his BS, with that risk, no one would pirate. Even restricting them to .4's or so is silly, because most travel around empire, shortest distance only passes through .4's. If you had any clue, you would realize that ccp threw pirates a bone on purpose, and made a system where there is a long 100% safe route, and a short not so safe route. Its the basic principal of Eve, and ccp has just made the universe apply to this principal, more ON PURPOSE. ------------------------------- I have an idea. How about you get banned 15 minutes from the server everytime you take a sec hit ? --Lady Beeblebrox
Burnhard Brutor	Posted - 2005.09.08 20:11:00 - [39] Originally by: Lifewire Nafri is right - pirates were nerfed. Some quitted, some went to 0.0, sone joined alliances. Now that empire is not a nearly 100% safe space anymore, we come back. To be true: i don¦t see the benefit of having a safe empire. Pirates are a counterbalance to really rich economic players that have billions of ISK. These players have to hire escorts (pay other poorer PVPers) or pay tollings (pay poorer pirates). However - these players need to loose ISK. They were able and allowed to make ISK for 2 years at absolutly no risk in empire and now it¦s time to introduce "the real EVE" to them. Safety has a price...they have to hire pirate hunters or escort pilots if they want to enter more profitable low sec. They deserve to get ganked if they don¦t interact with other players in a massive multiplayer game. Actually, I've been looking at this post for 20 minutes (I'm a slow reader) and I still can't see how a rich "economic" player can be counterbalanced by a pirate. He'll rarely get ganked as he'll rarely cross your path and when he does, well, you can't empty his wallet, only pop his ship and maybe, just maybe, he'll have some nice cargo. Chances are though, that if he's a rich player, he probably knows not to carry his Tech II blueprints around with him. At most, you can be an irritant to his bank balance. No, this justification for 0.4 sentry tanking pirate camps is just not viable. The way an "economic" player needs to lose ISK is by having his investments `go down as well as up'. This means, fluctuations in the the buy/sell economy, share ownership, trading fluctuations, blueprint modifications etc. If you want to see "the real Eve", then you need to be in the Billionaire Tech II producer club, not beating up the intermediate and low level guys (the Proles), which is basically what you are about. Originally by: Lifewire They deserve to get ganked if they don¦t interact with other players in a massive multiplayer game. .... and the above is just plain wrong. Nobody deserves to get ganked in the way you suggest for playing this "open ended" game the way they want to. Eve might encourage group play, but it isn't compulsory as you well know.
Tsual	Posted - 2005.09.08 22:39:00 - [40] Currently the only usefull tactic for avoiding I see is: map: kills in the last hour. gathering information on different channels and on the board. (not every noob knows about that.) Guess no need for a travel/pirate warning channel in eve, as the empire and language channels help a lot. Same problem apeared in another space based game and has always appeared in pvp everywhere games: Ganking and camping. And never have a seen a viable solution that didn't need a lot of player experience, training and dedication thus long time of playing.(Not everyone can achieve.) And before any pirate comes up with the get an escort notion: not always possible. don't go there: Uhm mission? Uhm rats? erm mining? Uhm who you want to shoot then? On the other hand there are also annoying carebears who just flame around without a second notion and without having gathered enough information on the topic. (Lost in the history of eve-online boards there was a lengthy thread about this from Ms Constantine.) --------------------------------------
Jewel Earli	Posted - 2005.09.09 02:41:00 - [41] Low sec is the start of the frontier. Sure there are the old west towns (bases) that can defend themselves and there are ports (gates) that can also shoot at passing pirates. In between there are injuns and hill folk who'll kill ya as soon as look at ya. It still gets claimed by the empire / state / republic etc but not quite yet taimed. You want to head into them hills you'd best heed the warning sign you get before you jump into 0.4 'Careful: You are now leaving civilisation, you could get killed'. 0.0 is THE wild frontier where only the brave and ready to die go in search of riches beyound the dreams of the timid masses. I see two solutions to the so called pirate 'problem'. First up the bounty system needs some tweaking. You need to be able to claim a legal bounty without getting a sec hit. We also need some way of stopping pirates from getting a mate to claim the bounty and split it with them. I'm not exactly sure how CCP should implement it but perhaps a Bounty contract system of some kind? You lay down collateral for a licence to collect a bounty on a particular felon. It's a one shot deal but you can take them out as if they were war decced but only once. If somebody else beats you to it tough luck, you lose collateral (or maybe you can cut a deal and team up with the other hunter?). I'm not sure how you could exclude pirates from still getting the licence, killing their mate and splitting the cash but there has to be more incentive for bounty hunters and the like to hunt pirates and outlaws. The second option is one I reckon I'll try and get going when I get back from holiday. I'm still in my n00b corp because I just like to solo most of the time and be beholden to no-one. I do sometimes team up with folks but I don't have a burning desire to be in a corp. This means there are on average 300 people in my corp channel with varying degrees of skill. What if each noob warrior corp took it upon themselves to help protect their nation? We may for the most part be flying Merlins and Bantams but I'll wager one of us can get a cov-op boat behind ya then 20 Merlins vs your sniper BS. You go boom boom. Failing that, how many of us could you take out before we got to ya? Yes we would suffer losses but we knew the risks when we signed on right? (and I'm sure we could have a whip round to help replace lost ships, especially with some of that bounty cash). I reckon the noob warrior corps should start protecting the interests of the State. Call it our service in exchange from being immune to war decs if you like. Anyone else ready to be heroes? The Price of Freedom is Eternal Vigilance
Lifewire	Posted - 2005.09.09 07:30:00 - [42] Quote: Actually, I've been looking at this post for 20 minutes (I'm a slow reader) and I still can't see how a rich "economic" player can be counterbalanced by a pirate. He'll rarely get ganked as he'll rarely cross your path and when he does, well, you can't empty his wallet, only pop his ship and maybe, just maybe, he'll have some nice cargo. Chances are though, that if he's a rich player, he probably knows not to carry his Tech II blueprints around with him. At most, you can be an irritant to his bank balance. No, this justification for 0.4 sentry tanking pirate camps is just not viable. The way an "economic" player needs to lose ISK is by having his investments `go down as well as up'. This means, fluctuations in the the buy/sell economy, share ownership, trading fluctuations, blueprint modifications etc. If you want to see "the real Eve", then you need to be in the Billionaire Tech II producer club, not beating up the intermediate and low level guys (the Proles), which is basically what you are about. Did you see many freigthers in low sec or 0.0? How about indys? Where are more: in Yulai or in low sec systems? How about general traffic? Yulai or low sec? Where is more? Ok - now you see something "forces" economic players to stay out of low sec - this are the pirates, their counterbalance. If these economic players want to make more ISK, they would need to accept more risk (RSK VS REWARD). They could reduce their risk by hiring PVPers to defend their economic activities. Unfortunatly economic players dont want to pay others - this is where the problem begins: economic players think EVE should be SIM CITY in space while PVPers think economic activities are only part of "the war", like logistic is part of the war. EVE is a wargame - just check all the items: war equipment from A...antimater to Z...Zealot. Economic activities are only a part of alliances fighting each other. Pirates are the counterbalance to econmic players - thats a fact. Quote: .... and the above is just plain wrong. Nobody deserves to get ganked in the way you suggest for playing this "open ended" game the way they want to. Eve might encourage group play, but it isn't compulsory as you well know. If you do not interact in a massive multiplayer game you for sure deserve getting killed over and over again - it¦s a multiplayer game! Act like one! What would an ecomonic giant do when he lost an indy??? Cry on forums. What should he do??? Hire pirate hunters to keep his trade lines tidy. Try a TDG spawn or the TDG complexes in Pure Blind, Syndicate or empire.
Burnhard Brutor	Posted - 2005.09.09 07:51:00 - [43] Originally by: Lifewire Did you see many freigthers in low sec or 0.0? How about indys? Where are more: in Yulai or in low sec systems? How about general traffic? Yulai or low sec? Where is more? Ok - now you see something "forces" economic players to stay out of low sec - this are the pirates, their counterbalance. If these economic players want to make more ISK, they would need to accept more risk (RSK VS REWARD). They could reduce their risk by hiring PVPers to defend their economic activities. Unfortunatly economic players dont want to pay others - this is where the problem begins: economic players think EVE should be SIM CITY in space while PVPers think economic activities are only part of "the war", like logistic is part of the war. Actually, for an `economic player', Effort v Reward is the equation you should be working with and there is nothing wrong with that. Most frieghters I have seen in 0.0 do indeed have escorts with them (no, not the agency variety). I don't know about 0.1 - 0.4 as I haven't been there much in the last few months. The seriously rich players can sit in Yulai and make 200 million a day without even leaving the station. There is no risk whatsoever for them (I think you know this already). You can't touch them unless you stop buying their Cap Recharger II's (or similar). So, when you talk about counteracting Economic players, you aren't talking about the rich ones, you are talking about the low or medium level ones. Originally by: Lifewire EVE is a wargame - just check all the items: war equipment from A...antimater to Z...Zealot. Economic activities are only a part of alliances fighting each other. Pirates are the counterbalance to econmic players - thats a fact. Well, it's a game where conflict plays a big part. I wouldn't say it was a war game though. Some play it like grand strategy (Risk), some play it like CS in Space, some play it like the Sims Online and some play it like X2. There are many different play-styles, not just the one view you have of it. Originally by: Lifewire If you do not interact in a massive multiplayer game you for sure deserve getting killed over and over again - it¦s a multiplayer game! Act like one! What would an ecomonic giant do when he lost an indy??? Cry on forums. What should he do??? Hire pirate hunters to keep his trade lines tidy. Interaction is different from group play. I didn't say anything about interaction. Solo players interact with others all the time. But the game mechanics are not there to create a good bounty hunting scene as others have pointed out. It really isn't worth it for the average player to pay a pirate hunting corp to keep a route clear. In fact the average player couldn't afford the rates. The system needs to balance itself - ie. it should encourage bounty hunters to take the job on in any case, not just when hired. Wherever the bad guys are, there should be good guys after them. That would be balanced. At the moment it just doesn't work like this.
Kai Lae	Posted - 2005.09.09 10:14:00 - [44] Funny thing about this is it's very easy to force a pirate sniping gatecamp off a gate. All you need to do is have someone in a covert ops jump in on the gate that they are guarding, and cloak - and make sure they see it. Almost always this will cause the pirates to instantly safespot their ships. It's like pressing a "clear pirates from gate" button. Kinda funny actually to watch. Of course, if your're in my situation and you just made 15-20 jumps to try to kill them it's damned annoying but hey...
TuRtLe HeAd	Posted - 2006.02.08 13:43:00 - [45] Not Pirates, just mis understood. ------------------------------------------------ I Pity the Fool !
Lisa Run	Posted - 2006.02.08 13:54:00 - [46] Edited by: Lisa Run on 08/02/2006 13:54:34 I'd say working as intended. The idea was to devide empire space and introduce a difficulty to travel e.g. from amarr to minmatar space. If low sec didn't attract pirates, it would be pointless to have short insecure and long secure ways.
Halet Cu	Posted - 2006.02.08 14:36:00 - [47] Originally by: H20L Edited by: H20L on 08/09/2005 12:19:03 i have to admit that since the patch and the gate changes i have seen more player rats around, but many of them are coming back for stock or something most proberly.. i have ran into 1 gate sniper but i gave him what for and he legged it and left me alone whilst i was in my BC.. but they do pick on memebers with no isk or hardly any or smaller ships as it's easy pickings.. ive been podded by rats 5+ times ive lost alot of throax's due to going to ammar space and having to fly through 0.4 and 0.3 just to get cheaper parts.. but paying less usually theres a reason such as pod area's so i think ill stay out in the safe zones.. it was 13 jumps from my home in oursulaert to place in ammar now its 22 [this could be down to i ma have set auto pilot up wrong etc] also a way to combat PVP rats is to use and buy the Insta gate Bookmarks it works wonders.. as by time they've startgetted u your already jumping H20L Fly safe everyone I'm not sure if this started before or after the patch but there have also been a lot of comments on pirates sitting at 1.0 gates and ganking freighters. After they get trashed by concond, a buddy comes by and picks up the loot. The problem here is that the pirate makes out by collecting the insurance on his ship AND the contents of the freighter while the freighter pilot, who can't insure his contents, gets screwed.
Cypherous	Posted - 2006.02.08 14:47:00 - [48] Originally by: Halet Cu I'm not sure if this started before or after the patch but there have also been a lot of comments on pirates sitting at 1.0 gates and ganking freighters. After they get trashed by concond, a buddy comes by and picks up the loot. The problem here is that the pirate makes out by collecting the insurance on his ship AND the contents of the freighter while the freighter pilot, who can't insure his contents, gets screwed. Firstly freighters dont drop cans, in response to the random police idea, no freaking way, thats called making it all too safe for carebears, you either take the long route and survive or you go through the low sec systems and risk getting pwnd. O RLY?! --Jorauk Way cooler than Jorauk - Cortes
tyyryk	Posted - 2006.02.08 14:57:00 - [49] Originally by: Timothia No what i'm saying is empire isn't meant for pvp, 0.0 is. So pirates who want to kill people can do it out there. The problem is they are just too chicken, they sit out of range of gates sniping people with their ship directed towards warp and their finger on the chicken switch. What about corp and players that are newer and don't have the finances or firepower to fight back? They die. Seriously, carebears like yourself who worry themselves awake at night about pvpers need to deal with the fact that Eve is not a safe place. Perhaps the reason why there is a slowly growing but rock solid playerbase is that all accept the fact that you can be ganked anytime, anywhere. Want to be safe? Stay docked in a station. Otherwise go back to WoW where you can play with all the other carebears.
Drazys	Posted - 2006.02.08 16:34:00 - [50] If you a "carebear" who can't stand losing a ship, go play WoW with other carebears, yes... And if you are "ganker-(word that rhymes well)" who measures Eve fun and progress only by amount of killmails and damage caused to other players, go play Counter-Strike without having to bother with all the boring details. Now, that would get rid of both of those tiresome extremists. - Drazzy
Iberi	Posted - 2006.02.08 16:43:00 - [51] Originally by: Halet Cu Originally by: H20L Edited by: H20L on 08/09/2005 12:19:03 i have to admit that since the patch and the gate changes i have seen more player rats around, but many of them are coming back for stock or something most proberly.. i have ran into 1 gate sniper but i gave him what for and he legged it and left me alone whilst i was in my BC.. but they do pick on memebers with no isk or hardly any or smaller ships as it's easy pickings.. ive been podded by rats 5+ times ive lost alot of throax's due to going to ammar space and having to fly through 0.4 and 0.3 just to get cheaper parts.. but paying less usually theres a reason such as pod area's so i think ill stay out in the safe zones.. it was 13 jumps from my home in oursulaert to place in ammar now its 22 [this could be down to i ma have set auto pilot up wrong etc] also a way to combat PVP rats is to use and buy the Insta gate Bookmarks it works wonders.. as by time they've startgetted u your already jumping H20L Fly safe everyone I'm not sure if this started before or after the patch but there have also been a lot of comments on pirates sitting at 1.0 gates and ganking freighters. After they get trashed by concond, a buddy comes by and picks up the loot. The problem here is that the pirate makes out by collecting the insurance on his ship AND the contents of the freighter while the freighter pilot, who can't insure his contents, gets screwed. How long did ypu play Eve? Week? There are dozen of methods to not be killed. But people prefer to whine on forum.
Rodj Blake	Posted - 2006.02.08 16:48:00 - [52] Thread necromancy is bad. The dead should be allowed to rest in peace. Dolce et decorum est pro imperator mori
Teblin	Posted - 2006.02.08 16:59:00 - [53] Please don't bump threads from months ago when you feel you have something to add. Instead, create an entirely new thread if there isn't another along the same lines already about. forum rules \| [email protected]

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