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[Question] Idea for wormhole mechanic, how bad? Wormhole Plowing

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Bronya Boga Semper Ubi Sub Ubi 102	Posted - 2013.04.04 19:26:00 - [31] - Quote Im having a 'wormhole stabilizer' flash back here Host of podcast Down The Pipe www.downthepipe-wh.com Podcast Public Channel is DTP Podcast @drverikan on twitter [email protected]
Caleb Ayrania TarNec 100	Posted - 2013.04.05 06:52:00 - [32] - Quote Why exactly is it so accepted with a feature in game that is one way only? Stabilizing in some way makes perfect sense to make the functionality two way? The current mechanics have grown ingrained, and players have perfected working with them. That does not mean a more complex feature should not be considered. Getting rid of current system would be way to big a change, but adding a new layer on top of it would ad complexity and incentives to wormhole space. I think it would work well balance wise with things like Stations and the largest tier ships. Bringing in some of the mechanics from empire and from null would need a new balanced method. If not its just WH getting the benefits that originally did not belong there. Phase Space as a concept makes this possible, creating a WH mechanic that is a lot like the old system, but with new ways to operate them. Its not gates, its not really wormholes, but they have something in between.
Himnos Altar An Errant Venture Beyond The Dark 136	Posted - 2013.04.05 09:15:00 - [33] - Quote Caleb Ayrania wrote: With Plowing some parts of WH space could become practically semi civilized.. . stops reading
Raptors Mole The Pheasant Pluckers 86	Posted - 2013.04.05 09:19:00 - [34] - Quote Not really understanding why and what benefits this change would bring other than perhaps making it easier to get started in WH space. I will bring this to its predictable and logical end. Stable Wormhole. Add Local. Add SOV. Add door hitting WH dwellers arse on way out. Raptors
Caleb Ayrania TarNec 100	Posted - 2013.04.05 09:34:00 - [35] - Quote Raptors Mole wrote: Not really understanding why and what benefits this change would bring other than perhaps making it easier to get started in WH space. I will bring this to its predictable and logical end. Stable Wormhole. Add Local. Add SOV. Add door hitting WH dwellers arse on way out. Raptors Phase Space systems would only be stable when maintained, and when uncontested. SOV would by def never be needed, and thus not getting the control benefits as null. The current WH space would be the systems supporting the economy and strategy part of Phase Space. The links between current WH space and Phase space should ofc work on current WH mechanics, but between Phas Space and k-space the mechanics would be the one mentioned. I think it would both be a nice addition to current WH expertise and a valid way of upgrading WH space without adding to its "problems" or out balancing current overall game power and activity distribution..
IgnasS Infinity Explorers Exhale. 25	Posted - 2013.04.05 10:07:00 - [36] - Quote I hope you do understand that what you're proposing will give null sec a safe & short route to hi sec for freighters protected by friends and without the risk being jumped by WH dwellers Or is it what you want?
Caleb Ayrania TarNec 100	Posted - 2013.04.05 10:51:00 - [37] - Quote IgnasS wrote: I hope you do understand that what you're proposing will give null sec a safe & short route to hi sec for freighters protected by friends and without the risk being jumped by WH dwellers Or is it what you want? Partly YES. There would be a rather big need to put effort into making it safe and short, and keeping it so. The routes would never be permanent, thus players would exchange passage and bargain for terms and conditions.. This is exactly what would make a lot of new integration of EVE aspects.. OFC balancing it so the traditional ways would still be viable is relevant, but that is true for almost all aspects of the game.. Something like it would also mean null entities would be less interested in keeping huge bodies of space, thus letting in more complexity in null, and bringing more potential controversy and "wars".. basically populate more null and WH space and break the Donut. Making WH a little more open to newer less experienced players, without forcing them into the mega entities, same with WH Alliances.. Diversity is good for longevity of the game.. and more fun for most.. This current ERA is a gridlock of power it happens gradually and usually only breaks with big new changes.. or some epic drama.
Rengas AQUILA INC Verge of Collapse 119	Posted - 2013.04.05 11:00:00 - [38] - Quote The only good idea that any of the CSM candidates voiced this year was Kwark's vision of wormholes being the byproduct of mindless raging space worms that tunnel through the great unknown, leaving behind destruction (and connections!) in their wake. So you 5 current candidates better consider yourself lucky that he forgot to register because we all know who would've won THIS space race!
Jee Audanie The Exploration Company Ravensgaard 3	Posted - 2013.04.05 11:43:00 - [39] - Quote As you keep saying that people dont want to change because they have lived the mechanic as it is for a while, I thought I would chirp in. I have been playing the game for about 6 months and recently (past 2 months) I was given the chance to live in W-Space and I love it, the way the gameplay is and the additional stratergy of having to think more long term to make sure you are stocked up is what makes me love it. Yes I haven't utilized it to it's full potential because I still spend time in Hi-Sec, do I want to in the long run live in W-Space more? Yes. Do I think there is much that needs changing? Apart from POS, No. W-Space mechanics are fine as they are, the suggestion about a possible W-Space market with proper player owned stations (like I hear Null has) could make it a bit more interesting but that is all
Archdaimon NorCorp Enterprise No Holes Barred 175	Posted - 2013.04.05 11:49:00 - [40] - Quote Dear OP. The reason we are all against is because of the effects you do not foresee. If you had the chance to expand or increase the mass of a wh. It is a matter of days (not even weeks) before youd see wh's more similar to zero sec with titans and supers and mega blobs (more than we already have). Most people joined wh's because we like the limit of what you can bring through the WH. Any way to increase the size of a wh is a bad idea because it increases the blob without increasing the effort. This, above, is the long explanation of the past two pages of "no". Go live in a wh and see how it is done before you propose change. Wormholes has the best accoustics. It's known. - Sing it for me -
Caleb Ayrania TarNec 100	Posted - 2013.04.05 14:53:00 - [41] - Quote Archdaimon wrote: Dear OP. The reason we are all against is because of the effects you do not foresee. If you had the chance to expand or increase the mass of a wh. It is a matter of days (not even weeks) before youd see wh's more similar to zero sec with titans and supers and mega blobs (more than we already have). Most people joined wh's because we like the limit of what you can bring through the WH. Any way to increase the size of a wh is a bad idea because it increases the blob without increasing the effort. This, above, is the long explanation of the past two pages of "no". Go live in a wh and see how it is done before you propose change. First off; Thanks for the civil tone. I am well aware that WH space is very liked by the 5% populating them. That means 4 times more live in null and 15 times that live in empire. I would say WH population needs to double in size and a way to do this is bring something different. The size of things players have managed to bring into WH is a bit above and beyond what I believe it was initially build for. Next people will want more, STATIONs or building CAPS.. I see this as a natural development, but would prefer letting it be part of something with a few new mechanics and a novel aspect of narrative. Introducing a whole new concept with Phase Space, that I also linked a littel explanation on. The space "around" the wormholes. Like the dough in the loaf description in cosmology seems to fit well in EVE concepts. Also the fact that a lot have been asking for stabilizers and something along those lines for a long time, this would suit their needs, while playing into the expertise of current WH denizens. It would be "easier" to access then WH and could attract people bored with null and the explorative kind from empire, that still is not ready for the masive logistics in WH space. With the coming exploration and scanner changes something like this would most likely be exactly what is needed to spread players around more, and give space and motivation to new ventures. Maybe we might be getting a lot of new blood coming in from the success of DUST. Where do we put these players? The universe is not as empty as it was 3-4 years ago. How do we bind people and activities together when they spread "thinner" in space? I think Phase Space would be an excellent way to glue things together, without breaking anyones game.
Raptors Mole The Pheasant Pluckers 88	Posted - 2013.04.05 15:57:00 - [42] - Quote Caleb. Not flaming. But well, comments below. I am well aware that WH space is very liked by the 5% populating them. That means 4 times more live in null and 15 times that live in empire. 1. That 5% is very active. You need a good understanding of game mechanics, logistics, and teamwork. As well as ISK and the skills to live in WH space. I am not saying the elite of eve live there as there are great players in all the areas, just very few poor/low skilled players. It is a challenging environment. Yes the rewards are good but you can and will get punished harshly unless you are well prepared, even then you can get evicted. I would say WH population needs to double in size and a way to do this is bring something different. 2. Double you say. What is this based on? 95% of people choose not to live in WH as said earlier it takes commitment to do well. The size of things players have managed to bring into WH is a bit above and beyond what I believe it was initially build for. Next people will want more, STATIONs or building CAPS.. 3. No we really don't. A better POS system yes. Bigger ships - no. Small fleet stuff is WH bread and butter. It is WH that actually dictate the this. Also the fact that a lot have been asking for stabilizers and something along those lines for a long time, this would suit their needs, while playing into the expertise of current WH denizens. 4. Profoundly NO. 1 or 2 peeople have suggested this and have been roundly flamed. Bad, bad idea for WH space. It turns WH space into null sec. It would be "easier" to access then WH and could attract people bored with null and the explorative kind from empire, that still is not ready for the masive logistics in WH space. 5. C1-3 have exits to K-space. Not that hard logistically - certainly no harder than Null sec. It shouldn't be easy as it would invalidate the risk v reward. With the coming exploration and scanner changes something like this would most likely be exactly what is needed to spread players around more, and give space and motivation to new ventures. 6. I hope so. Maybe we might be getting a lot of new blood coming in from the success of DUST. Where do we put these players? The universe is not as empty as it was 3-4 years ago. 7. WH space is not for the newbie player. you need to learn the game first. How long is dependent on the individual player. How do we bind people and activities together when they spread "thinner" in space? I think Phase Space would be an excellent way to glue things together, without breaking anyones game. 8. I am not change resistant and the vast majority of WH dwellers are flexible and robust players. You need to be more specific about the "How" and "Why" and fill your idea out more. Any permanent or semi Permanent WH will be resisted, and quite rightly IMHO. The vast majority of Null Sec is empty of players for the majority of the time. Jump in a cov Ops and go have a look around. WH space can't support the same numbers as K-Space as money is made not from your own WH but from farming the static WH in many cases. Anyhow. In short your idea is novel, but has too many flaws, is missing details to support. You have kind of ignored negative responses, hence the general hostility in this thread from the very people who know WH space.
Akinesis CRIMSON ASSAULT Brotherhood of the Kebab 11	Posted - 2013.04.05 16:31:00 - [43] - Quote Wrote a post, but it didn't send and now I've lost it. But Raptors Mole has summed up pretty much what I said beautifully!
Caleb Ayrania TarNec 100	Posted - 2013.04.05 16:32:00 - [44] - Quote AHH F*** Me too..
Borlag Crendraven Future Corps Sleeper Social Club 310	Posted - 2013.04.05 17:02:00 - [45] - Quote I find it amusing that the very idea you're proposing, would actually work against your intents of bringing more life to wormhole space. The only outcome of any stabilizer type of idea is easier time sieging out small corps, the carebear corps, people who look like they could have juicy loot, people who just happen to be there when you're bored enough... Get the idea yet?
Caleb Ayrania TarNec 100	Posted - 2013.04.05 17:23:00 - [46] - Quote Borlag Crendraven wrote: I find it amusing that the very idea you're proposing, would actually work against your intents of bringing more life to wormhole space. The only outcome of any stabilizer type of idea is easier time sieging out small corps, the carebear corps, people who look like they could have juicy loot, people who just happen to be there when you're bored enough... Get the idea yet? Let me give you a VERY concrete example of how to resolve that. Put maintenance strains on manhours. More roids less content. More moons less content. Make Station services POS driven, so facilities slots are linked to POS structure. Thus forcing inclusivity due to need of casual labor force. Shift towards more speciality on faction equipments, so a system would benefit from different POS Towers and different skilled players etc. To much of EVE is not spread out enough regarding these things. To much one size fits all. I think this is shifting a bit with CCP though, they are coming to terms with what the playerbase is capable of and how well they adapt. In the core of the Phase space concept is the maintaining of passages. If a huge income would come from selling short cut access or exploration rights, I think players would adapt.
Borlag Crendraven Future Corps Sleeper Social Club 310	Posted - 2013.04.05 17:40:00 - [47] - Quote That will resolve absolutely nothing regarding this. While people in w-space might have alts to do science, industry, PI and so on and so on...the people who are here for the pew will continue being in it for the pew. The people who want to take a dump in your sandbox will continue taking a dump in your sandbox and by making it possible for them to keep bringing more without the need to roll for new connections for the same system, you're essentially making drive by sieges extremely easy. It would also make actual fights even more scarce simply by allowing you to bring more capitals and that way the blobbing would become even worse than it already is in some fights. In short, neither of your idea would work towards what you think it does.
Caleb Ayrania TarNec 100	Posted - 2013.04.05 18:05:00 - [48] - Quote Borlag Crendraven wrote: That will resolve absolutely nothing regarding this. While people in w-space might have alts to do science, industry, PI and so on and so on...the people who are here for the pew will continue being in it for the pew. The people who want to take a dump in your sandbox will continue taking a dump in your sandbox and by making it possible for them to keep bringing more without the need to roll for new connections for the same system, you're essentially making drive by sieges extremely easy. It would also make actual fights even more scarce simply by allowing you to bring more capitals and that way the blobbing would become even worse than it already is in some fights. In short, neither of your idea would work towards what you think it does. Your argument is basically none of your ideas will work because EVE players shoot things? I think I am aware of this, and did not omit it in any of my posts. So your argument is a non sequitur. Its actually the opposite BECAUSE players shoot things my ideas would work. Its what generates the needs to engage in the features mentioned. You need to aggress or defend, or risk plowing tunnels, and maintaining them would need income, and that would need population etc etc.. You take damage moving through tunnels so you would need repairs, this would be logi or stations, these would need fueling and back the ring we go again.
Borlag Crendraven Future Corps Sleeper Social Club 310	Posted - 2013.04.05 18:19:00 - [49] - Quote No, time after time it has been proven that those people who refuse to fight, will resort to self destructing everything they own rather than bringing that fight. If they're not there defending what is theirs now, they wont suddenly start doing it if you make it even harder for them. While I don't have much sympathy for those who just carebear around in w-space, it'd still be a shame to allow something like that happen as all it results in, is those smaller corps getting bent over in favor of those who are already stronger. That's what the situation is in null already, we don't want that and the game doesn't become any better if you introduce that, on the contrary.
Roime Shiva Furnace 2431	Posted - 2013.04.06 07:21:00 - [50] - Quote Caleb Ayrania wrote: First off; Thanks for the civil tone. I am well aware that WH space is very liked by the 5% populating them. That means 4 times more live in null and 15 times that live in empire. I would say WH population needs to double in size and a way to do this is bring something different. This is why very few people bother with civil tone with you. You just drag things out of your hat without any ind of backing, and base your idea on them. Why wh population needs to double? Did you know that most systems are already occupied? Quote: The size of things players have managed to bring into WH is a bit above and beyond what I believe it was initially build for. Next people will want more, STATIONs or building CAPS.. You seem to be the only one who wants such things, and that's pretty much all there is to this thread. -á- All I really wanted was to build a castle among the stars -
Caleb Ayrania TarNec 102	Posted - 2013.04.06 08:03:00 - [51] - Quote Roime wrote: Caleb Ayrania wrote: First off; Thanks for the civil tone. I am well aware that WH space is very liked by the 5% populating them. That means 4 times more live in null and 15 times that live in empire. I would say WH population needs to double in size and a way to do this is bring something different. This is why very few people bother with civil tone with you. You just drag things out of your hat without any ind of backing, and base your idea on them. Why wh population needs to double? Did you know that most systems are already occupied? Quote: The size of things players have managed to bring into WH is a bit above and beyond what I believe it was initially build for. Next people will want more, STATIONs or building CAPS.. You seem to be the only one who wants such things, and that's pretty much all there is to this thread. I think I was pretty precise in the estimated needed number of new systems about 500 to add to the existent 2500 or so. Bringing the population up to double its size would be expected with a lot more options to work from docked systems, and increased interest from null and the need to defend higher valued entities. Also the added aspect of exploration and maintaining the routes would support a doubling. (I think this is an example of supporting my idea with arguments and premises) The fact that WH space is already pretty full as you say, I think I already mentioned as an argument for bringing something new like this to WH space, and add new systems. I am sure if you read the thread and the replies, you should not end up feeling this concept takes away something from WH space, it actually add to it. True it would change the dynamic a lot, but the fundamental value of the experience and the modes of operation would much remain the same. Well from other thread around the eve-o I am pretty sure I am not the only one that want these things. I might be the only one currently in the forum that want these things, because the people that do are not in WH exactly because of its current shortcomings. I guess here the counter will be well then they should just stay out, or try it the way it is to change their minds, and see that it works fine. That could be true, but I see no reason why some of the things people envision should not be considered. EVE needs to bring new things to the game, and not just tweak things. As to the civility tone. My point was to ask questions and get a discussion going, if people dont want to actually discuss there is no reason to reply. I brought the question to those with most experience and insight, and I had expected that would be respected by you guys. I did not take it to the traditional proposal forus, because then you end up with someone suggesting things that would demand changes and dev time on a scale that is huge. Most of the aspect in the proposal and concept as it is uses a lot of existing mechanics with most aspects being a reuse of what we already have. The actual mechanic of the tunneling being the only really new thing added.
Raptors Mole The Pheasant Pluckers 97	Posted - 2013.04.06 11:18:00 - [52] - Quote Caleb, You have asked for opinions on an idea you have had to improve an area of EVE that you don't currently understand very well. Hence asking in the WH forum. The general consensus of the people who replied is your idea is not supported in its current format. Phase Space sounds interesting. Will there be Thargoids? Back to the drawing board mate. You can't win the Grand National on a dead horse, no matter how hard you flog it.
Caleb Ayrania TarNec 102	Posted - 2013.04.06 11:25:00 - [53] - Quote Raptors Mole wrote: Caleb, You have asked for opinions on an idea you have had to improve an area of EVE that you don't currently understand very well. Hence asking in the WH forum. The general consensus of the people who replied is your idea is not supported in its current format. Phase Space sounds interesting. Will there be Thargoids? Back to the drawing board mate. You can't win the Grand National on a dead horse, no matter how hard you flog it. This kinda is meant to be the drawing board. I will even supply a crateful of crayons. I appear to have colored a bit outside the lines though.. I have no problem with criticism. If I did I would not post on eve-o. OFC there should be Targoids, or Vogons, or Daleks. Not sure which would convert well into EVE.. I am currently betting on Daleks, their philosophy seem to match best..
Cheesy Feet Reconfiguration Nation Existential Anxiety 19	Posted - 2013.04.06 11:38:00 - [54] - Quote Caleb wrote: , OFC there should be Targoids, or Vogons, or Daleks. Not sure which would convert well into EVE.. I am currently betting on Daleks, their philosophy seem to match best. Now your talking! Daleks instead of Sleepers or as well as? Add Cybermen too, forget all the other stuff and I'm sure the WH community will be fully behind you Fleet Issue Tardis FTW \0/
Caleb Ayrania TarNec 102	Posted - 2013.04.06 12:18:00 - [55] - Quote Let me go back to the ideas that should not rub anyone in any way.. The actual idea of a space type that looks and feels different. The Phase Space image shows the core of that idea and I think that fits most peoples flavor of EVE cosmology. Phase Space Image The second part is that movement is in a tunnel like warping. This would be different that gates and WH, since it would be kind of an inversion of current movements. Your warp through space and jump through gates and WH, in Phase Space you locate a tunnel and you enter it in a similar visual as warp. The best equivalent is seen in Deep Space 9 where Sisqo enters the "WH" in a Tunnel version when meeting the Oracle. Like seen in the battle inside the Wormhole HERE The difference is usually there is no time going through the WH is DS9, but sometimes the travel is not instant.. While in this type of instance based tunnel space you could even let players see and interact with each other? So the space would be "Real" and while in the tunnel there might be combat possible with players and spawning rats?
Arox Dax Posthuman Society 10110001100111101000 42	Posted - 2013.04.06 13:20:00 - [56] - Quote Caleb, I am nowhere near as eloquent or erudite as Raptor, so I'm not gonna try to add to his excellent reply to your argument, but I do have an observation or two. You came up with an idea, you plainly state in your very numerous replies that you want the perspective and critiqu+¬ of the WH population, quite a number have answered you, the majority without flaming, they have added constructive and educated arguments to your idea. Yet you decide that we are "change averse", you keep committing to your argument over 3 pages against more and more hostility, whilst your determination to get your argument across is admirable, there is a point where you have to know you are not going to get a consensus in favour of your idea, that point was on page 1, no matter how well you argue, no matter how well you put forward your "facts/statistics" they are not going to sway the WH community, as someone else mentioned earlier, "if it ain't broke, why try to fix it". Whilst this doesn't mean there aren't things that need to be fixed/addressed in WH's, plowing a WH isn't one of them. You also state somewhere on page 1 (I'm way too lazy to go find it and quote it verbatim) that you have no direct interest in WH's, so why keep the argument going for 3 pages. We don't like the idea, we don't need the idea, we don't want the idea, think that's about as clear as it's gonna get, civilised society has gates, stations, ganks and police to look after you, they may listen to your idea, we in WH's like the basic mechanics as they are.

ISD Dorrim Barstorlode ISD Community Communications Liaisons 2097	Posted - 2013.04.06 18:53:00 - [57] - Quote Moving this from Wormholes to Features and Ideas. ISD Dorrim Barstorlode Captain Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs) Interstellar Services Department

Caleb Ayrania TarNec 103	Posted - 2013.04.06 19:00:00 - [58] - Quote ISD Dorrim Barstorlode wrote: Moving this from Wormholes to Features and Ideas. Dead Horse moved to the grinder. I guess we can let it have a proper burial here then..

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