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Caleb Ayrania
TarNec
95
|
Posted - 2013.04.04 01:15:00 -
[1] - Quote
I was watching a nice documentary about the role of canals during the industrial age, and it inspired me to come here and ask a crazy question.
What if Wormholes could be plowed as well as collapsed?
What I was thinking was to have wormholes size be a playre driven dynamic. So a small hole would need to be plowed to allow bigger ships. The mechanic would be that depending of size you would get damage when passing through the wormhole. When you exit on the other side if unscathed you would have widdened the hole a little bit depending on your ship size versu hole size.
This way you would have a sort of stabilization mechanic that was purely based on trafic and player activity.
Collapsing wormholes would be done by sacrificing ships inside the wormhole. So if you intentionally passed through a hole letting the ship get damaged to explode in the wormhole, it would collapse a little. So lost megatons inside the hole would destabilize it.
Passage through wormholes would also be length based like warping, so you knew the time it would take to pass. The DPS from the wormhole would tell you if you would survive, (I would like some level of uncertainty here to not make the system to "hackable")
Something like this would maybe create some rather unique new ways to view and use wormholes. Sort of like canals in mentioned historical context.
To make sure it did not totally change current "status quo" maybe just adding a percentage of WH space to work like this, until its a known mechanic.
With Plowing some parts of WH space could become practically semi civilized.. and routes would become a sort of player owned unwritten SOV ownership of ROADS.
These player created routes would make exchange of information about WH entry points really interesting to new types of player movement. A sort of paid highway system, where the routes had really good benefits?
I know suggesting something totally different to what we have now risk a lot of opposition, so please this is thought as a question and that is why its posted here where the experts live.
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Derath Ellecon
Washburne Holdings Situation: Normal
1253
|
Posted - 2013.04.04 01:49:00 -
[2] - Quote
WH space and WH's are one of the few areas that CCP hit a home run on their first try. They aint broke. They don't need to be "fixed" or "adjusted"
There is plenty of "civilized" space in EVE. It is nice having at least a small part still semi "unknown" |

Incindir Mauser
Adhocracy Incorporated Adhocracy
143
|
Posted - 2013.04.04 02:05:00 -
[3] - Quote
Bob says "No."
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Jack Miton
Aperture Harmonics K162
1565
|
Posted - 2013.04.04 02:19:00 -
[4] - Quote
nope. |

CeNSeR
Jazz Associates Azgoths of Kria
17
|
Posted - 2013.04.04 02:31:00 -
[5] - Quote
Can I have some of what you have been smoking plz op. |

unimatrix0030
Viperfleet Inc. Transmission Lost
20
|
Posted - 2013.04.04 05:35:00 -
[6] - Quote
NO!
But it is a cleaver try of renaming the old wormhole stabilisers idea 0.0 players always want... . |

Caleb Ayrania
TarNec
96
|
Posted - 2013.04.04 05:48:00 -
[7] - Quote
unimatrix0030 wrote:NO!
But it is a cleaver try of renaming the old wormhole stabilisers idea 0.0 players always want... .
Well its not really the same. There are no ideas of structures and what not. Also made sure to take into account that it should be biased towads the defenders, since they have plenty to worry about.
I would even add to the idea that damage should be linked to direction, so when you move towards a higher class you take more damage, and when you move down you take a lot less.
Similar effect strength regarding the widening and collapse effectiveness.
So the initiative and benefits are towards those already operating in the WH.
Again this is just a brainstorm on an idea that could spread new dynamics, not everywhere but where players would want to CAUSE it. Since the strain on invested time to actually get an effect should be high enough to not break existing gameplay.
My point is that the mere though of having wormhole space develop unseen like an ant colony under the nose of null and empire seem rather exciting.
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Roime
Shiva Furnace
2407
|
Posted - 2013.04.04 07:49:00 -
[8] - Quote
Caleb Ayrania wrote:
My point is that the mere though of having wormhole space develop unseen like an ant colony under the nose of null and empire seem rather exciting.
It has developed for years, not because it's unseen, but because guys like you just don't have a clue.
-á- All I really wanted was to build a castle among the stars - |

Tsobai Hashimoto
Hard Knocks Inc.
125
|
Posted - 2013.04.04 08:35:00 -
[9] - Quote
Roime wrote:Caleb Ayrania wrote:
My point is that the mere though of having wormhole space develop unseen like an ant colony under the nose of null and empire seem rather exciting.
It has developed for years, not because it's unseen, but because guys like you just don't have a clue.
My old corp and I jumped into WH when they very first came about years ago, setup a POS and learned a lot, we were all just carebare PVE guys.....after around 60 days the sites dried up and we packed up and left, not really knowing much about how the whole WH systems worked or the whole statics thing, not even sure what kind of static we had at the time lol
I have just recently rejoined WH space, and my god has WH become one of the most advanced, metagamed worlds within EVE and its hidden to most eyes. I thought Null Sec blocs had lots of interconnected comms, out of game applications and intel channels..... WH have it beat 3 fold easy
The live stream instantly updated WH maps that graph out everywhere you and your corp mates have gone into (giving you a drawn out pathway of all the WH and how they are connected) is the most amazing map I have ever seen...it puts dotlan to shame |

Akinesis
CRIMSON ASSAULT Brotherhood of the Kebab
11
|
Posted - 2013.04.04 08:40:00 -
[10] - Quote
Unkown space is challenging enough and the Wormholes themselves can provide people with more than a few headaches (polarity timers, mass variation, vague current mass indications and spawning within 2000m once passed through to name a few). So adding more would just make them an annoyance and a chore, especially if damage or ship loss is incurred on transit. That would discourage PvP in itself, if I understand correctly what you're suggesting. As already said, no need to fix what isn't broken.
There are plenty of other things that need tweaking (POS's, for instance) before big changes are considered. But I can pretty much guarantee that your suggestion will never come to fruition. |

Caleb Ayrania
TarNec
96
|
Posted - 2013.04.04 08:58:00 -
[11] - Quote
Tsobai Hashimoto wrote:Roime wrote:Caleb Ayrania wrote:
My point is that the mere though of having wormhole space develop unseen like an ant colony under the nose of null and empire seem rather exciting.
It has developed for years, not because it's unseen, but because guys like you just don't have a clue. My old corp and I jumped into WH when they very first came about years ago, setup a POS and learned a lot, we were all just carebare PVE guys.....after around 60 days the sites dried up and we packed up and left, not really knowing much about how the whole WH systems worked or the whole statics thing, not even sure what kind of static we had at the time lol I have just recently rejoined WH space, and my god has WH become one of the most advanced, metagamed worlds within EVE and its hidden to most eyes. I thought Null Sec blocs had lots of interconnected comms, out of game applications and intel channels..... WH have it beat 3 fold easy The live stream instantly updated WH maps that graph out everywhere you and your corp mates have gone into (giving you a drawn out pathway of all the WH and how they are connected) is the most amazing map I have ever seen...it puts dotlan to shame
Thanks for an actual post. No real comment on the concept, but still better than getting a single line with no content.
Is there a status quo bias? Saying WH space works perfect seem to contradict a lot of voices and the stats tbh. 5% of the population seem pretty low, at least if its so good?
Is it not a bit like saying that PI works perfectly because my factory setups are fully optimized and my cycle activity fits with my current real life time frames.
There seem to be an aversion to change, except if and when it specifically boosts peoples biz.
I do not really have any direct interest in WH space, only from the perspective of what I would tell new players to try. As it is I would be rather hesitant suggesting WH, because it seems a lot like a pocket dead end game aspect of EVE. Def not something open to newcomers or am I missing something?
What exactly is so horrible about having a mechanic that allows partial control of WH access and routes into the hands of player activity?
What if it was something like 500 brand new systems that worked pretty much like current WH space, with a few variation, but connected using a system like described? Would it still be so terrible?
What I am saying is the change aversion is natural, but if we are to expect 10 more years, would anyone prefer WH mechanics to remain the same? Personally I think all the current systems in EVE needs a lot more player direct interaction and effects, and a ton of new dynamic npc aspects. The latest nice article on things I believe is the correct direction was on the Mittani recently. bringing-life-highsec-tying-worlds-together
|

Roime
Shiva Furnace
2408
|
Posted - 2013.04.04 09:29:00 -
[12] - Quote
Caleb Ayrania wrote: Is there a status quo bias? Saying WH space works perfect seem to contradict a lot of voices and the stats tbh. 5% of the population seem pretty low, at least if its so good?
People living in wormholes: Yes, w-space is pretty much perfect as it is People who have no clue: Wormhole stabalizitarosssss plox idk why but yeah stabilisators are needed ok
-á- All I really wanted was to build a castle among the stars - |

c4binfever
Morte Aut Gloria
126
|
Posted - 2013.04.04 09:34:00 -
[13] - Quote
Caleb Ayrania wrote: widdened the hole a little bit depending on your ship size versu hole size.
"Stick it in deeper I like in hard fast and deep" -Lil Wayne <--dotbot |

Tsobai Hashimoto
Hard Knocks Inc.
125
|
Posted - 2013.04.04 09:40:00 -
[14] - Quote
Caleb Ayrania wrote:Tsobai Hashimoto wrote:Roime wrote:Caleb Ayrania wrote:
My point is that the mere though of having wormhole space develop unseen like an ant colony under the nose of null and empire seem rather exciting.
It has developed for years, not because it's unseen, but because guys like you just don't have a clue. My old corp and I jumped into WH when they very first came about years ago, setup a POS and learned a lot, we were all just carebare PVE guys.....after around 60 days the sites dried up and we packed up and left, not really knowing much about how the whole WH systems worked or the whole statics thing, not even sure what kind of static we had at the time lol I have just recently rejoined WH space, and my god has WH become one of the most advanced, metagamed worlds within EVE and its hidden to most eyes. I thought Null Sec blocs had lots of interconnected comms, out of game applications and intel channels..... WH have it beat 3 fold easy The live stream instantly updated WH maps that graph out everywhere you and your corp mates have gone into (giving you a drawn out pathway of all the WH and how they are connected) is the most amazing map I have ever seen...it puts dotlan to shame Thanks for an actual post. No real comment on the concept, but still better than getting a single line with no content. Is there a status quo bias? Saying WH space works perfect seem to contradict a lot of voices and the stats tbh. 5% of the population seem pretty low, at least if its so good? Is it not a bit like saying that PI works perfectly because my factory setups are fully optimized and my cycle activity fits with my current real life time frames. There seem to be an aversion to change, except if and when it specifically boosts peoples biz. I do not really have any direct interest in WH space, only from the perspective of what I would tell new players to try. As it is I would be rather hesitant suggesting WH, because it seems a lot like a pocket dead end game aspect of EVE. Def not something open to newcomers or am I missing something? What exactly is so horrible about having a mechanic that allows partial control of WH access and routes into the hands of player activity? What if it was something like 500 brand new systems that worked pretty much like current WH space, with a few variation, but connected using a system like described? Would it still be so terrible? What I am saying is the change aversion is natural, but if we are to expect 10 more years, would anyone prefer WH mechanics to remain the same? Personally I think all the current systems in EVE needs a lot more player direct interaction and effects, and a ton of new dynamic npc aspects. The latest nice article on things I believe is the correct direction was on the Mittani recently. bringing-life-highsec-tying-worlds-together
Move into a well organized C5+ WH group and see what its all about....the really well thought out groups have this already, ways to manipulate WHs to get them places they want to be...... I have already learned a ton about Rolling statics and the mapping system
On that note I do agree that more WH space would be sweet and most likely needed to be added if they ever expand the T3 line, I personally think T3 BC would be sweet, and throw in a higher class or two of WH....and while then that idea could be used I dont think it ever will
To name a few reasons of the top of my head, the current WH system is pretty cool, glad CCP put them in. another is coding, dealing damage to ships and changing mass up and down etc could tax the servers pretty hard, at least more so then current gates or WHs
And if bringing ships into a WH creates bigger WH, well....that just pushes it to more blobbing, something I think true PVP pilots dont want to see, if anything we want less |

Caleb Ayrania
TarNec
96
|
Posted - 2013.04.04 10:03:00 -
[15] - Quote
I really do not understand the opposition?
People are perfectly happy throwing swarms of ships at freighter, miners and other fleets, but strategically suiciding to collapse a WH or limit its size is a problem?
Also its preferable to have only collapse option, and needing to cycle statics to get new destinations, instead of planing and maintaining WH with destinations that benefits the denizens?
I can see that some existing tools becoming redundant is a HUGE issue, and thus why I pointed out that I would prefer a system like described in a new seed of WH systems.
The mentioned problem of getting trapped would in my opinion not be a problem but an actual feature. This would bring CHASE in a whole new way, and I would find a nice alternative to a lot of current behaviour?!
Regarding the use of equipment, I do like the idea of using lasers to widen and bombs or missiles to collapse, but I think that would need some testing and consideration. Its something a lot have argued well against in the past.
|

Roime
Shiva Furnace
2409
|
Posted - 2013.04.04 10:21:00 -
[16] - Quote
Caleb Ayrania wrote:I really do not understand the opposition?
People are perfectly happy throwing swarms of ships at freighter, miners and other fleets, but strategically suiciding to collapse a WH or limit its size is a problem?
Suicide battleships are in fact used on occasions to collapse wormholes, but the difference is in the ease of return to your home, and number of available pilots.
In wormholes, every pilot counts. That's why we pod, it prevents reshipping very effectively as clone vats are somewhere in k-space, 30+ jumps out, and enemy possibly controlling your only way back.
Quote:Also its preferable to have only collapse option, and needing to cycle statics to get new destinations, instead of planing and maintaining WH with destinations that benefits the denizens?
No, it's preferable to maintain the current mechanics of wormhole space, that are the only thing separating it from known space. Wormhole mass, lifetime and their random connectivity are the fundamentals that shape our lives and fights here.
Anyway, what you should try to argument is why these fundamentals need to change.
What's wrong with current mechanics?
-á- All I really wanted was to build a castle among the stars - |

Caleb Ayrania
TarNec
96
|
Posted - 2013.04.04 10:33:00 -
[17] - Quote
Well I have no issues with current mechanics. Its worked a long time and some rather epic stories and events have and take place in current WH space.
My question here is based on evolution of the whole of EVE, why I asked how something like this would feel to those with experience in WH space as it is.
Ferns and trees worked fine for millenia before flowers evolved, but they are related. I am just asking the biologists so to speak what would be the next logical step for WH space, and giving a suggestion of something I could imagine would be very engaging new mechanics.
Also I have a bit of a feeling of some latteral integration missing between WH and the rest of EVE. The industrial results ofc gets into the rest of the game, but it seems a bit like its developped into its own little sideshow. Null at least admits how integrated they are and need to be to what is derogatorily called carebears.
|

DJ P0N-3
Table Flippendeavors
179
|
Posted - 2013.04.04 11:53:00 -
[18] - Quote
The next logical step for w-space would be to seriously overhaul POSes and see what that does to the landscape and the population. I don't think you understand the degree to which people who live in w-space master the ability to get wherever they want to go. Wormhole stabilizers or expanders aren't "engaging new mechanics", they're cheat codes to bypass stealth, skill, and understanding of the terrain. |

Caleb Ayrania
TarNec
96
|
Posted - 2013.04.04 12:03:00 -
[19] - Quote
DJ P0N-3 wrote:The next logical step for w-space would be to seriously overhaul POSes and see what that does to the landscape and the population. I don't think you understand the degree to which people who live in w-space master the ability to get wherever they want to go. Wormhole stabilizers or expanders aren't "engaging new mechanics", they're cheat codes to bypass stealth, skill, and understanding of the terrain.
I think that is what some would call a barrier of entry.
The current mechanics seem to force players to take a degree in WH to even explore it.
We have two philosophies in EVE active atm BIG Corp mechnics and SOLO. Everything in between is meh!
I am a huge supporter of EVE complexity, but some entry level access in more areas would really help the game.
Also suckers and soft targets is not a bad thing for the "elites"
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Nathan Jameson
Talocan Dominion Talocan United
895
|
Posted - 2013.04.04 12:11:00 -
[20] - Quote
Caleb Ayrania wrote:The current mechanics seem to force players to take a degree in WH to even explore it.
Welcome to EVE. Here's your Rubik's cube. Nathan Jameson for CSM 8! My CSM 8 Blog My Twitter |

Caleb Ayrania
TarNec
97
|
Posted - 2013.04.04 12:31:00 -
[21] - Quote
If done as a new iteration of WH space it would be really interesting if you could build stations, that only had system range ofc.
If possible then markets in such a system could become something really interesting regarding function as hubs for illegal materials. So we could get some new activity in smuggling.
The trade and view ranges could be dynamic, so you can see a limited number of jumps based on new trade skills.
So they would be a tier on top of current exploration based WH space.
So Null is working on controlling DOORs
WH on pathways
Latteral integration between WH, Null, low sec and high sec would get very open to new developments.
Especially is some changes to high sec like the article on The Mittani got considered.. then you would also start needing to consider what faction space you actually pass through. A lot more than currently.
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Derath Ellecon
Washburne Holdings Situation: Normal
1256
|
Posted - 2013.04.04 12:38:00 -
[22] - Quote
Why is it whenever someone comes up with some crappy, half baked idea and gets shot down they cry "aversion to change"
Why is only 5% of the EVE population in WH's? Because it is hard. Everything that people take for granted everywhere else in EVE is a struggle for wormholes. Just restocking your system takes teamwork and significant time. We can go weeks sometimes without a good chain to empire for restocking so we have to plan ahead.
As such it attracts a certain breed of EVE player. And that breed of player is what makes WH life so amazing.
It isn't an aversion to change. It is that the changes you propose don't improve WH life in any way.
Even your arguments are half baked. You talk about people throwing swarms of ships at freighters? Yes they do it for PROFIT.
If I have to sacrifice a BS to get through a WH connection, well now I have to spend HOURS getting back to k-space, and restocking those ships. How is that better? More fun? |

Caleb Ayrania
TarNec
97
|
Posted - 2013.04.04 12:50:00 -
[23] - Quote
I understand habits. I just dont see why WH space can not evolve?
Lets give it a better name, to not step on peoples current situation.
Phase Space : The space in between Wormholes Phase Space Pic
I have no issues with current mechanics or the difficulty, I would just like some new aspects to support it and involve new types of players.
Assets saved is the same as PROFIT just saying!
You dont have to sacrifice you need to calculate estimate the DPS and the Length of the tunnel. So you are basically TANKING the passage, to make it wider.
This would also make a lot of skill and strategy an aspect. Same with collapsing tunnels being a damage based mechanics.
You dont have to get back to normal space if you get better options to build locally, and restocking would be a matter of investing time in plowing a passage to fit the needs in capacity, and guard it from enemies and time.
|

Meytal
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
175
|
Posted - 2013.04.04 12:51:00 -
[24] - Quote
Caleb Ayrania wrote:Ferns and trees worked fine for millenia before flowers evolved, but they are related. I am just asking the biologists so to speak what would be the next logical step for WH space, and giving a suggestion of something I could imagine would be very engaging new mechanics. There are already plenty of pansies in W-space. They run to their forcefields the second they see an unknown sig and never leave even to scout it. |

Derath Ellecon
Washburne Holdings Situation: Normal
1256
|
Posted - 2013.04.04 13:04:00 -
[25] - Quote
Quote:I understand habits. I just dont see why WH space can not evolve?
Nobody said it can't. Again, why does everyone pull out this "OMG nobody wants to change, BS"
I'll keep this simple. The issue is not that people don't want WH's to change. The issue is that your proposals for change are just plain BAD.
One of the beauties of WH space currently is that CCP did a great job so that they haven't needed to be adjusted. They have evolved as well. But the evolution has been player driven. Which is the way it should be. |

Caleb Ayrania
TarNec
99
|
Posted - 2013.04.04 13:12:00 -
[26] - Quote
Derath Ellecon wrote:Quote:I understand habits. I just dont see why WH space can not evolve? Nobody said it can't. Again, why does everyone pull out this "OMG nobody wants to change, BS" I'll keep this simple. The issue is not that people don't want WH's to change. The issue is that your proposals for change are just plain BAD. One of the beauties of WH space currently is that CCP did a great job so that they haven't needed to be adjusted. They have evolved as well. But the evolution has been player driven. Which is the way it should be.
If you read through the thread you would have seen that I suggested this as a new seeding of WH-like systems.
I also gave arguments for why I would find an idea like Phase Space interesting.
The changes I suggest or rather the addition will make a lot more sense as new aspects and changes enter from other features. many of which I directly refer and link to..
|

Derath Ellecon
Washburne Holdings Situation: Normal
1256
|
Posted - 2013.04.04 13:20:00 -
[27] - Quote
Caleb Ayrania wrote:Derath Ellecon wrote:Quote:I understand habits. I just dont see why WH space can not evolve? Nobody said it can't. Again, why does everyone pull out this "OMG nobody wants to change, BS" I'll keep this simple. The issue is not that people don't want WH's to change. The issue is that your proposals for change are just plain BAD. One of the beauties of WH space currently is that CCP did a great job so that they haven't needed to be adjusted. They have evolved as well. But the evolution has been player driven. Which is the way it should be. If you read through the thread you would have seen that I suggested this as a new seeding of WH-like systems. I also gave arguments for why I would find an idea like Phase Space interesting. The changes I suggest or rather the addition will make a lot more sense as new aspects and changes enter from other features. many of which I directly refer and link to..
Yes, the "my idea is obviously crap so I will hedge my bets by recommending it be part of some new space". I read it.
That article on Themittani.com is also largely crap. It had some tidbits of interesting stuff, but overall it is yet another "have CCP hard code dynamics that limit players rather than let the metagame evolve the world on its own"
|

Caleb Ayrania
TarNec
99
|
Posted - 2013.04.04 13:41:00 -
[28] - Quote
Derath Ellecon wrote:
Yes, the "my idea is obviously crap so I will hedge my bets by recommending it be part of some new space". I read it.
That article on Themittani.com is also largely crap. It had some tidbits of interesting stuff, but overall it is yet another "have CCP hard code dynamics that limit players rather than let the metagame evolve the world on its own"
I never admitted to my idea being crap. Personally i think the current system IS crap, and have since it was introduced. I admitted to the fact that people have grown accustomed to the crap and fitted it into their habits. The genius of those few EVE players, that "hack" the often half finished features, is the way EVE have survived.
The fact you call the Mittani article crap shows you either do not understand its merits, or again just dont want to have to chance your activity.
The Blue Donut, The Frequency trading, and the WH Cricket wars is grid locking the game. Something that players seem very adverse to changing by changing their habits. My point is we need features and novelty too freshen up the field.
Some major overhauls are needed but the most vital ones are those that integrate latterally, because they reduce the ccp dev time needed. That means small changes with huge consequences, whether that be broker fees and taxes or wormhole space logistics, or SOV equipment hitpoints.
I can say these things will happen, and its already discernible from the CCP comments in CSM7 and from visible features that are inactive or underpowered.
Metagame has nothing to do with the changes in that article it takes place fully beyond the client. The changes suggested in the Mittani article is about practical ingame freedom of movement and engagements with enemies, with a lot of added latteral effects like faction warfare and its faucets.
|

Cheesy Feet
Reconfiguration Nation Existential Anxiety
18
|
Posted - 2013.04.04 13:57:00 -
[29] - Quote
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flogging_a_dead_horse
I think you'll find the exit from WH space -> That way
Feel free to use it |

Kennesaw Breach
Z3R0 Return Mining Inc. Illusion of Solitude
36
|
Posted - 2013.04.04 19:09:00 -
[30] - Quote
Great idea if you want fewer subscribing EVE players in wormholes... |
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