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Gierling
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Posted - 2005.09.09 04:46:00 -
[1]
and replace them with a class of tech 1 vessels that perform the same function.
This uber... uber-duper, uber-super-duper, uber-duper-OMEGA etc progression takes away from the fun.
Yeah its fun to punch someone in the face with the HAC, but it breaks the balance paradigms to have a never ending cycle of more powerful vessells coming out.
Bastards we are lest Bastards we become. |
Necrologic
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Posted - 2005.09.09 04:47:00 -
[2]
The only ship in the game right now breaking balance paradigms is the battleship.
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Zayle
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Posted - 2005.09.09 05:23:00 -
[3]
Edited by: Zayle on 09/09/2005 05:23:38
i dont agree with this a single bit... t2 ships are out there for the more skilled players to use and thats how it should be, if your complaining bc someone more skilled than you can fly one, then dont post a thread. t2 ships arent all that special anyways, properly fitted, you can take out a hac, af or an inty, they just have better resistances and a couple more bonuses
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Thorax Implailer
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Posted - 2005.09.09 05:29:00 -
[4]
 Originally by: Zayle
Edited by: Zayle on 09/09/2005 05:23:38
i dont agree with this a single bit... t2 ships are out there for the more skilled players to use and thats how it should be, if your complaining bc someone more skilled than you can fly one, then dont post a thread. t2 ships arent all that special anyways, properly fitted, you can take out a hac, af or an inty, they just have better resistances and a couple more bonuses
If you mean player skills as in the real person not character skill levels then I laugh at you. Eve does take some "skill" but not like some other games out there like say an FPS game. Not only this but if it came down to player skill and not character skill there would be alot of differences in this game. Oh and getting a HAC is just a matter of time for anyone who wants it, it doesn't take skill of any sort (well besides your characters skills :P)
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Voltron
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Posted - 2005.09.09 05:47:00 -
[5]
T2 ships can be quite easily killed with 100% insureable T1 ships, you just have to know how to fly and fit your ships.
Volt
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Lagar
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Posted - 2005.09.09 05:51:00 -
[6]
Edited by: Lagar on 09/09/2005 05:54:15
there is one thing that is imposible atm.. and that is to REMOVE something that almost every person have trained for (some might even be exlusivly training their chars for a T2 frigate)
so no... T2 ships are here to stay and there is no way T2 ships can be removed no matter how much you try...
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Necrologic
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Posted - 2005.09.09 06:16:00 -
[7]
But i do think t3 ships are gonna get pritty stupid.
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Roxanna Kell
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Posted - 2005.09.09 07:01:00 -
[8]
if u train it, u get the bonuses, t2 ships seem to have the high resistance, normal ships dont ..
keep it the way it is, jsut make em do more damage.
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Rex Martell
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Posted - 2005.09.09 07:25:00 -
[9]
Tech II ships and Mods are here to stay. Personally I think the whole concept of powerfull ships and mods being player manufactured and widely available to all Players is one of the things that makes this game so great.
The Point about Player skills V Character Skill again I think that the Training over time aspect of eVe is fantastic and a great balancing point between those players who have 6 hours a week to play and those with 60. Those who stay the course and specialise get rewarded by being able to use elite equipement.
"The object of war is not to die for your corp, but to make the other b@##@#d die for his" |
Saicon
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Posted - 2005.09.09 07:58:00 -
[10]
/me wants his tech 6 deathstar 
Originally by: Necrologic
This made me laugh so hard cottage cheese came out of my nose.
More disturbingly, i wasn't eating cottage cheese at the time.
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Randay
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Posted - 2005.09.09 07:59:00 -
[11]
yeah who the hell wants to play a game thats constantly getting better? take out all t2 modules and make this game boring please, we hate having all these cool new features and content!
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"Det hõr kan betyda krig!" |
Raaki
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Posted - 2005.09.09 08:19:00 -
[12]
T2 Hac's are what the cruiser should have always been imho.
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Dash Ripcock
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Posted - 2005.09.09 08:38:00 -
[13]
Originally by: Thorax Implailer
Originally by: Zayle
Edited by: Zayle on 09/09/2005 05:23:38
i dont agree with this a single bit... t2 ships are out there for the more skilled players to use and thats how it should be, if your complaining bc someone more skilled than you can fly one, then dont post a thread. t2 ships arent all that special anyways, properly fitted, you can take out a hac, af or an inty, they just have better resistances and a couple more bonuses
If you mean player skills as in the real person not character skill levels then I laugh at you. Eve does take some "skill" but not like some other games out there like say an FPS game. Not only this but if it came down to player skill and not character skill there would be alot of differences in this game. Oh and getting a HAC is just a matter of time for anyone who wants it, it doesn't take skill of any sort (well besides your characters skills :P)
I am sorry sir, but that is a complete and utter nonsense.
Granted an FPS requires high reaction times and a dab hand with the mouse, as well as the more tactical side of things (what gun for what situation, which route to pursue on the map etc) but more skilful than EVE? I, along with quite a few I imagine, would beg to differ.
EVE is not a simple case of 'click F1, F2, F3...Æ close your eyes and hope that you don't wake up in a station. In fact, EVE is probably one of the hardest combat games out there due to the need to think extremely quickly but plan ahead at the same time. Countering your enemies set-up, countering his tactics, keeping an eye out for reinforcements, deciding whether to fight or flee - all of these are a small portion of what makes EVE so damn fantastic in a scrap.
As for the whole skills issue, yes of course the more specialist items are inevitable if that is what the pilots in question set out to achieve, but can you propose an alternative for an MMO? I'd rather have a time-based system that rewards the casual player, than a ludicrous grind resulting in those with the smallest smidgen of a real-world life to gain all of the good stuff within the game environment.
The Firing Range |
Tulor
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Posted - 2005.09.09 09:02:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Thorax Implailer
Originally by: Zayle
Edited by: Zayle on 09/09/2005 05:23:38
i dont agree with this a single bit... t2 ships are out there for the more skilled players to use and thats how it should be, if your complaining bc someone more skilled than you can fly one, then dont post a thread. t2 ships arent all that special anyways, properly fitted, you can take out a hac, af or an inty, they just have better resistances and a couple more bonuses
If you mean player skills as in the real person not character skill levels then I laugh at you. Eve does take some "skill" but not like some other games out there like say an FPS game. Not only this but if it came down to player skill and not character skill there would be alot of differences in this game. Oh and getting a HAC is just a matter of time for anyone who wants it, it doesn't take skill of any sort (well besides your characters skills :P)
if you think eve doesn't take skill then, um, well you're wrong. That's the only way I can say it. The skill comes from forcing the fight into terms favorable to your ship and unfavorable to your opponents. That means you have to quickly process data and then figure out ways on the fly to psych out, trick or just plain intimidate your opponent.
This is even more obvious in small group vs small group fights. when each side has between 4 and 8 people the outcome is decided entirely on quick thinking, team work, flexibility and coordination.
Your comparison between eve and a fps is similiar to someone comparing chess to basketball. Both games require skill, so much that I could never even possibly begin to play at the highest level's in either game even if I devoted my life to them right now. However, trying to compare the two is ridiculous. They both take skill, just entirely different skills.
Yarrr! |
Joerd Toastius
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Posted - 2005.09.09 10:57:00 -
[15]
When considering T3, bear in mind that there are currently a whole set of named T1 items for each base T1 item but no named T2 items at all. T3 could be a long, long way off.
Originally by: Dash Ripcock
In fact, EVE is probably one of the hardest combat games out there
Oh please.
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El'hith
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Posted - 2005.09.09 11:15:00 -
[16]
i have only one complaint regardin T2 ships....... Insurance!!!!!!! WTF is goin on with it!?
4 example a enyo costs about 20mill average on the market yet it is only rated as been worth about 3 mill with regard to insurance!?
why is it like this ? 
i may just be sad coz i lost my enyo last night..... but i cant c why there is such a difference between cost and insurance payout!
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LUKEC
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Posted - 2005.09.09 11:15:00 -
[17]
t2 should be more available. Npc drops t2 bpcs etc...
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B0rn2KiLL
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Posted - 2005.09.09 11:23:00 -
[18]
t2 ships are great.
t1 ships are all nice and pink for empire space, but what about 0.0.
besides, u can get t1 ships at about 6 mil sp and ud have it all even a BS.
personally im waiting for the t2 battlecruiser, ferox hull, god it will pwn:P
plus u got the dread now, and soon a carrier (portable pos?)
as to the game development, i dont think CCP are mindless grunts that will keep introducing t2, t3, t4 ships every cycle. at somepoint, the ships database will be suffeciant and effective enough to keep the community with a fistful. i see CCP moving on to focus on the soial aspect of the game. Corp missions, Better corp management and even some 0.0 tweaking, etc.
as to skill, this game is 50% sp, 50% player skill. trust me. if you think otherwise then you'r not that experienced in the game, or just hadnt had the oppertunity to cross real experienced players.
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Joerd Toastius
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Posted - 2005.09.09 13:50:00 -
[19]
Insurance is, IIRC, based on build cost. The payout you get from insurance is simply the amount the hull cost to actually manufacture at 100% efficiency and given certain assumptions about mineral costs. All that extra you pay for the hull is going into somebody's pocket.
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Artemis
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Posted - 2005.09.09 13:57:00 -
[20]
More T2 Ships!, Tech two battleship with reinforced mode!
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000Hunter000
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Posted - 2005.09.09 14:21:00 -
[21]
So does this mean u want to get rid of T2 mods too? I know! why not quit? that way u can get rid of the entire game!!! 
signature? What signature? ;) |
Kye Kenshin
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Posted - 2005.09.09 14:41:00 -
[22]
IMO T2 ships are balanced due to very poor insurance payouts and in the case of the HAC limited supply.
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Shai Faetal
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Posted - 2005.09.09 15:02:00 -
[23]
Originally by: Necrologic
But i do think t3 ships are gonna get pritty stupid.
tech 3 ships will be like the polaris legatus, 99% all round resist, cant fit guns and a 10K sig radius :D
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meh. go away |
franny
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Posted - 2005.09.09 15:13:00 -
[24]
Originally by: Lagar
some might even be exlusivly training their chars for a T2 frigate
that would be me, hell I had all the skills but frig 5 for my enyo/ishkur before I had cruiser 3(I had a move planned and didn't want frig 5 to finish in the middle)
I can't fly anything bigger than a cruiser, but I can fly assault frigs and could train for ceptors / covert ops easy enough |
Lagar
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Posted - 2005.09.09 15:19:00 -
[25]
Tech 3 ships i think will look like nothing the empire created ships... more of the ships design are player controled.
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Alowishus
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Posted - 2005.09.09 16:18:00 -
[26]
I think the game would be a lot more fun without T2 ships but unfortunately without new content the game will die.
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Lagar
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Posted - 2005.09.09 17:19:00 -
[27]
Originally by: Alowishus
I think the game would be a lot more fun without T2 ships but unfortunately without new content the game will die.
personaly i dont think so.. the reson peeps dont want T2 ships is cause they think they are to powerfull just remember this however.. once they are destroyed one will not get full insurance.. beceause usualy they cost more to buy than they actualy are worth.
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Dryxonedes Sae
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Posted - 2005.09.09 17:27:00 -
[28]
As far as EVE requiring RL skills... yeah it does. I play battlefield 2, previously also Desert Combat, almost religously some weekends (only jipped out on fine sunny days by my nice R6...), EVE just uses DIFFERENT skills. EVE i believe requires more thought than direct "skill" (though they could be considered the same area), as was said, to analyse the given situation, make your choice, and make it work. And hell no, don't go taking those T2 ships away, unless you want people to play for 2 months, experience all the ship types, then bail out.
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niko86
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Posted - 2005.09.09 23:44:00 -
[29]
I think T2 ships are great. The only aim before them was the BS. But now you never have to fly one to be able to kill one solo. Just need a well fitted HAC.
Only problem i see is T3 ships, how can CCP make new ships without making them 100% resists all round with 8/8/8 fitting slots and insane weapons bonuses. I would be happy once the rest of the T2 line of ships come out for no more new tech ships to come out until there is an obvious need for them.
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Layrex
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Posted - 2005.09.09 23:56:00 -
[30]
Edited by: Layrex on 09/09/2005 23:56:28
Originally by: Thorax Implailer
Originally by: Zayle
Edited by: Zayle on 09/09/2005 05:23:38
i dont agree with this a single bit... t2 ships are out there for the more skilled players to use and thats how it should be, if your complaining bc someone more skilled than you can fly one, then dont post a thread. t2 ships arent all that special anyways, properly fitted, you can take out a hac, af or an inty, they just have better resistances and a couple more bonuses
If you mean player skills as in the real person not character skill levels then I laugh at you. Eve does take some "skill" but not like some other games out there like say an FPS game. Not only this but if it came down to player skill and not character skill there would be alot of differences in this game. Oh and getting a HAC is just a matter of time for anyone who wants it, it doesn't take skill of any sort (well besides your characters skills :P)
That is true even I have a HAC. And i'm like, THE worst player in eve.
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Eonov
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Posted - 2005.09.10 00:22:00 -
[31]
u say get rid of t2 ships yet faction uber ships are par for the course (coulndt be arsed reading all this thread), noone has any reason to whinge about t2 ships in eve, all factions have em, any1 can learn to use em, if ya dont want too then sod off and do somthing awsome like learn uber science skills, then ul never have to launch and u can still make billions......
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akrotor
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Posted - 2005.09.10 02:24:00 -
[32]
Edited by: akrotor on 10/09/2005 02:24:17
i have an even better idea lets just get rid of all the ships exept the shuttle so tht eve is the most fun and exiting game ever for those whiners that just dont seem to like the fact there sp less chars cant take a good punding from a good pilot
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Ethan Tomlinson
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Posted - 2005.09.10 02:50:00 -
[33]
/me cant wait for his tech 10 jovian interceptor :)))))))
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Vaevectia
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Posted - 2005.09.10 04:55:00 -
[34]
Why would you require 99% resist to all on a T3 ship?
Lets say, for the sake of arguement, t1 ships have avg calculated 50% resist to all.
T2 coming out have 75%.
This does not mean that for the T3 to follow suit, it requires 100%, in fact, if you do the math, it'd require 87.5%.... so no, to have the same level of upgrade, you wouldn't need to make them invulnerable, just better.
Anyways, IMO, t2 ships spit in the face of the newbie when it was said that a "three month old player can compete with a three year old player"; no, that's LESS true in this game than nearly any other MMORPG.
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Zayle
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Posted - 2005.09.11 09:00:00 -
[35]
Edited by: Zayle on 11/09/2005 09:00:37
Originally by: Layrex
Edited by: Layrex on 09/09/2005 23:56:28
Originally by: Thorax Implailer
Originally by: Zayle
Edited by: Zayle on 09/09/2005 05:23:38
i dont agree with this a single bit... t2 ships are out there for the more skilled players to use and thats how it should be, if your complaining bc someone more skilled than you can fly one, then dont post a thread. t2 ships arent all that special anyways, properly fitted, you can take out a hac, af or an inty, they just have better resistances and a couple more bonuses
If you mean player skills as in the real person not character skill levels then I laugh at you. Eve does take some "skill" but not like some other games out there like say an FPS game. Not only this but if it came down to player skill and not character skill there would be alot of differences in this game. Oh and getting a HAC is just a matter of time for anyone who wants it, it doesn't take skill of any sort (well besides your characters skills :P)
That is true even I have a HAC. And i'm like, THE worst player in eve.
lol, thats funny as hell, anyways, about the skill issue i meant both, you cant run into a fight with guns you just trained for and you cant run into a fight without knowin what you're doin, and yes, anyone can get a hac, anyone can get any ship... thats the point of eve...
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HippoKing
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Posted - 2005.09.11 09:38:00 -
[36]
Originally by: Vaevectia
Anyways, IMO, t2 ships spit in the face of the newbie when it was said that a "three month old player can compete with a three year old player"; no, that's LESS true in this game than nearly any other MMORPG.
yup - no newbie can ever compete with a 3year old player. theres a good reason for that. afaik, there ARE no 3year old players
however, a 3month player who has specialised CAN kill a long term player who hasn't. hell, they can even kill players with more skillpoints in that particular area just by using 10% more brain.
tell me that in world of warcraft i can run up to a lvl60 character and nut him with a lvl40, and still have a hope of winning, then i'll believe that this is less true in eve than any other MMO
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R Dan
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Posted - 2005.09.11 11:49:00 -
[37]
Tech 2 ships rock, They are why I'm still playing EvE they keep the older players interested in the game.
And yes, there is a growing gulf between the players that have been here for years and the newer chaps.
But there is ALWAYS going to be one in any game -UNLESS there is no character progression (which lets face it would make any game like this alittle "samey" and would get old damn fast)
But yeah the new guys could still kill me if they have specialised more than me, have better fitting, and more/better equiped team mates (and Eve is after all a team game).
I remember when I started, I thought the older players were untouchable. but even then the Devs had given the new players a chance to get even with te older ones, and before long in many tasks i was as good as them. Most old players have had to diversify with PvP ers having learnt how to refine with no waste (at the time now we have greater specilisation skills) or haul etc.
Lets not forget that the Devs have given the new chaps things which we never had. Advanced learning skills, mining barges, new little ships classes like destroyers. Which allow the newer players to fill a nieche nicely and get involved with the older chaps much faster.
Personally my feelings are split about T3 ships. As an older player I do want something which is Bigger, Better, Faster, Stronger. but this will again have the affter of destabilising the game. NPC hunting would be a dodle in a T3 HAC.. or you could upgrade the NPCs and then new players couldnt take them.
Maybe these fabled T3 ships could have other bonuses? not necesarily higher resists but other things like speed/special skills.
Anyway I've left my point which is:
Additional content is always good.
T2 ships + mods are additional content and therefore good.
and finally: Eve ROCKS!
Bite me....for i taste good :)
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Jon Xylur
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Posted - 2005.09.11 15:14:00 -
[38]
Tech 2 ships are OK. They migth be slightly uber but they need lots of skills to fly. Bjt I don't like the idea of tech 3 ships. They would be remodels of tech 2 ships that are remodels of tech 1 ships and they would be super uberific. Imagine an assaul frigate that's as strong as a HAC and can easily kill any battleship, or an uber cruiser with the firepower of a dreadnaught!
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Zelakil
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Posted - 2005.09.13 01:39:00 -
[39]
Tech 2 ships and modules are in the game for a very good reason, and they are there to stay. Imagine playing Eve for three or so years and having absolutely no benefit for time spent training skills...? As players get older, they will need more advanced items to keep the game interesting. That's not to say that tech 3 should follow the same route as tech 2, resistanecs etc...At some point CCP will have to come up with radical changes to ship design, slots, etc, in order to keep the game interesting for long time players. I would be happy with options such as a ship that allows a choice of how many slots in low, med, high etc.
The only real problem I forsee is providing players with the income potential/economy to afford ultra-expensive items.
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Dash Ripcock
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Posted - 2005.09.13 13:50:00 -
[40]
Originally by: Joerd Toastius
When considering T3, bear in mind that there are currently a whole set of named T1 items for each base T1 item but no named T2 items at all. T3 could be a long, long way off.
Originally by: Dash Ripcock
In fact, EVE is probably one of the hardest combat games out there
Oh please.
Oh please? Care to elaborate?
I've spent a long time playing FPS games, both online and otherwise, and whilst both require good hand-eye coordination and decent reactions as well as sound knowledge of the game, neither have the ability to surprise you like EVE does - especially the online variants.
Some of the fights I have in EVE literally leave my heart in my throat, and are a far cry from the easy kills in games such as CS:Source and Battlefield 2. Sure they might not offer the bone-crunching kinetic impact or the blistering pace, but when it comes to full workout I think EVE most definitely stands out.
The Firing Range |
Lan Malkier
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Posted - 2005.09.13 17:38:00 -
[41]
Personally I think the "heart in your mouth" feeling is more to do with the consequences of losing. Lose in an FPS and you just re-spawn. Lose in most space combat sims and you just re-start the mission. You lose in EVE and you've just lost a ship which you have to work to regain. ok, insurance mitigates this to some degree but for bs and t2 ships the insurance is still pricey (either to buy or to lose). And this isn't even dealing with expensive implants if you get podded.
Then of course there's the ongoing nature of it with corps and claimed territory. Losing has more strings attached than most other games and that is why it's so edgy. |
Joerd Toastius
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Posted - 2005.09.13 17:42:00 -
[42]
www.themis-group.com/jg for one. Yes, there is a certain amount of strategic and tactical thought needed in choosing loadouts and running large combat ops, but the actual combat itself is (comparatively) laughably straightforward once you actually engage the enemy. Yes, there is skill, but there are far far more skilled games out there (and no, I don't mean games like CS, particularly at the level most people play it).
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Skyscorcher
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Posted - 2005.09.13 17:55:00 -
[43]
Edited by: Skyscorcher on 13/09/2005 17:55:35
Quote:
tell me that in world of warcraft i can run up to a lvl60 character and nut him with a lvl40, and still have a hope of winning, then i'll believe that this is less true in eve than any other MMO
Just wanted to pop in and say that I've done that. Warriors > Rogues.
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