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mirel yirrin	Posted - 2005.09.13 06:49:00 - [31] Originally by: Dark Shikari Rob, you seem to not understand how EVE works. If there was no combat, there would be no ship losses, and the market would collapse. Without the market, there would be no EVE. Second thing, they aren't called "PKs." EVE is not Ultima Online, there are no "PKs." Yah, look at my post 3 down fromm the first. --------------------------------- The Comments and/or Actions above in noway indicate the veiws or actions of my corporation.
ScoRpS	Posted - 2005.09.13 07:21:00 - [32] Originally by: mirel yirrin I think What laughs very hard he means is that either CCP should stop anyone podkilling or playerkilling anyone, or setup a bounty system. It already exsists. And to be quite honest, remove PK'ing from the game and eve loses everyone. No PK'ing = Lessened Demand for ships = market Crash. Its a cycle, provides Ships and modules for. provides the demand by losing and destroying ships. Without one, the other will die, and vice versa. I am quite suprised you have such a deep understanding of eve economics, where did u learn all that? docked at 9cg during your pathetic tour of duty in FIX? Cant wait to catch you pirating sometime
gfldex	Posted - 2005.09.13 08:13:00 - [33] Originally by: Dark Shikari If there was no combat, there would be no ship losses, and the market would collapse. Please open your map and switch shipkills on then switch to NPC losses. You will see a match here. Most ships are lost in Empire and to NPCs! Players _do_not_ loose ships to grim men or in fleet battles (well ... some do /me looks at his killmails) but to advice resistent, overestimation of one's own capabilities and bad luck. So please stop to blame pirates. Oveur is the root of all evil! -- $ perl -e 'do not $fear and do not die;'
Dark Shikari	Posted - 2005.09.13 09:32:00 - [34] Originally by: gfldex Originally by: Dark Shikari If there was no combat, there would be no ship losses, and the market would collapse. Please open your map and switch shipkills on then switch to NPC losses. You will see a match here. Most ships are lost in Empire and to NPCs! Players _do_not_ loose ships to grim men or in fleet battles (well ... some do /me looks at his killmails) but to advice resistent, overestimation of one's own capabilities and bad luck. So please stop to blame pirates. Oveur is the root of all evil! "NPC losses" = Number of dead NPCs Not number of dead players. -- Proud member of the [23]. Selling Capital Cargo Bays and Kernite Mining Crystal IIs, cheaper than anyone else.
gfldex	Posted - 2005.09.13 10:17:00 - [35] Originally by: Dark Shikari "NPC losses" = Number of dead NPCs Not number of dead players. That's exactly what i meant. Go to the systems in question and cruise around there for a while. You will see no PvP at all. I was in 2 corps so far (thanks god it's over) where ppl try to shield and armor tank at the same ship at the same time. Needless to say what happens after a while. CCP does know it for sure and when the next dev chat is announced I will ask them about that fact. But im realy sure what the answer will be. -- $ perl -n -e 'print "Stop blameing pirates! Oveur is the root of all evil!\n" if m/podkill\|lost my ship\|gank\|gate camp\|Verone/;'
Nafri	Posted - 2005.09.13 10:50:00 - [36] Originally by: Dark Shikari Edited by: Dark Shikari on 13/09/2005 09:34:13 Originally by: gfldex Originally by: Dark Shikari If there was no combat, there would be no ship losses, and the market would collapse. Please open your map and switch shipkills on then switch to NPC losses. You will see a match here. Most ships are lost in Empire and to NPCs! Players _do_not_ loose ships to grim men or in fleet battles (well ... some do /me looks at his killmails) but to advice resistent, overestimation of one's own capabilities and bad luck. So please stop to blame pirates. Oveur is the root of all evil! "NPC losses" = Number of dead NPCs Not number of dead players. A lot of ships are lost in empire--surprise--BECAUSE THERE ARE WARS IN HIGHWAY SYSTEMS. D'oh? There are easily 20 times more ships lost in PvP than mission runners will ever lose. If you believe otherwise, you haven't done any research to back up your claim. CCP in fact knows exactly what the statistics are, and this is why they implemented the PvP system how it is. And cause PvP-Characters are the mostly the only ones playing this game from the start to now. Most of the guys wanting to change Eve into PvE grinding are leaving after a few month anyway. No chance to make any plans with only such a population. If there is a new hypegame like WoW Eve would die with only such players. Your bla bla hit bla bla for bla bla damage. Wanna have some bubu now?
Ikvar	Posted - 2005.09.13 12:21:00 - [37] Originally by: Capsicum People, flaming is against the forum rules. Originally by: ScoRpS I am quite suprised you have such a deep understanding of eve economics, where did u learn all that? docked at 9cg during your pathetic tour of duty in FIX? Cant wait to catch you pirating sometime Originally by: James Lyrus Complaining about PvP & Pirates in EVE is like complaining about the mines in minesweeper.
ScoRpS	Posted - 2005.09.13 15:28:00 - [38] Edited by: ScoRpS on 13/09/2005 15:29:02 Ok Ivkar and Mirel i am sorry for the flamage as SNIG is a cool corp and perhaps mirel can start enjoying pvp as do the rest of SNIG. And as for derailing the thread....sorry again. Edit: this has nothing to do with me running for mr universe
Horsefly	Posted - 2005.09.13 17:14:00 - [39] Edited by: Horsefly on 13/09/2005 17:15:05 Originally by: ScoRpS Originally by: mirel yirrin I think What laughs very hard he means is that either CCP should stop anyone podkilling or playerkilling anyone, or setup a bounty system. It already exsists. And to be quite honest, remove PK'ing from the game and eve loses everyone. No PK'ing = Lessened Demand for ships = market Crash. Its a cycle, provides Ships and modules for. provides the demand by losing and destroying ships. Without one, the other will die, and vice versa. I am quite suprised you have such a deep understanding of eve economics, where did u learn all that? docked at 9cg during your pathetic tour of duty in FIX? Cant wait to catch you pirating sometime You know you should be a bit more kind ScoRpS. We havent seen you guys either since we have moved into the area. Or did you find new targets? (dont worry I always give them a way out.) Edited. Dang it just when I get upset you say sorry. Well then my bad. I should have read all the way down.
Tulor	Posted - 2005.09.13 19:21:00 - [40] perhaps people lose ships to npc's. And perhaps they lose all there basic and tech I gear. Or their medium guns on their typhoons or whatever. But an experienced player won't be loosing expensive stuff to npc's. Someone with tech II guns and armor reps, Tech II cap rechargers and all that other good stuff is probably experienced enough to efficently cut through those poor NPC clods. Therefore, the Tech II market and rare module market is driven by PVP combat. I will admit that PVP probably has little effect on the Probe or basic capacitor flux coil market. Yarrr!
GoGo Yubari	Posted - 2005.09.13 21:40:00 - [41] Originally by: Jane Vladmir Teddybear alt anyone?
gfldex	Posted - 2005.09.14 08:46:00 - [42] Originally by: Tulor Someone with tech II guns and armor reps, Tech II cap rechargers and all that other good stuff is probably experienced enough to efficently cut through those poor NPC clods. One of our fleet commanders (no names here :) thought it would be a good idea to snipe belt rats. He learnd that belt rats can relocate from a different belt right next to you when you warp in at 100km. He went down befor we where able to help him. Got plenty of money is not the very same to smart or experienced. There are indeed tec 2 items like sensor boosters, tracking comps or guns witch are seldom lost to NPC but a lot tec 2 items are never used in combat and still got high prices. When I tell you ppl loose ships to NPC then I have seen then going down. It's not guessing or wishing it might be so. I know that the human brain is a very effective pattern matching machine. It's so effective that it is able to found patterns where no such are! That's where common myth like 'dont pop the ark roid. i will grow faster then' or 'leave all CRU in a spawn so the BS spawn faster' come from. I learned (the hard way) that common sense is not the best way to get knowledge. Yes sure 'PvP is driving the marked' sounds so nice it has to be true! There are hundreds of ppl in noob corps and there a thousends of small corps that sit in empire all night and day. And none of them does any PvP at all. But feel free to get catched by the common sense trap. -- $ perl -n -e 'print "Stop blameing pirates! Oveur is the root of all evil!\n" if m/podkill\|lost my ship\|gank\|gate camp\|Verone/;'
Dark Shikari	Posted - 2005.09.14 09:43:00 - [43] Originally by: gfldex Originally by: Tulor Someone with tech II guns and armor reps, Tech II cap rechargers and all that other good stuff is probably experienced enough to efficently cut through those poor NPC clods. One of our fleet commanders (no names here :) thought it would be a good idea to snipe belt rats. He learnd that belt rats can relocate from a different belt right next to you when you warp in at 100km. He went down befor we where able to help him. Got plenty of money is not the very same to smart or experienced. There are indeed tec 2 items like sensor boosters, tracking comps or guns witch are seldom lost to NPC but a lot tec 2 items are never used in combat and still got high prices. When I tell you ppl loose ships to NPC then I have seen then going down. It's not guessing or wishing it might be so. I know that the human brain is a very effective pattern matching machine. It's so effective that it is able to found patterns where no such are! That's where common myth like 'dont pop the ark roid. i will grow faster then' or 'leave all CRU in a spawn so the BS spawn faster' come from. I learned (the hard way) that common sense is not the best way to get knowledge. Yes sure 'PvP is driving the marked' sounds so nice it has to be true! There are hundreds of ppl in noob corps and there a thousends of small corps that sit in empire all night and day. And none of them does any PvP at all. But feel free to get catched by the common sense trap. Most of the people staying in noob corps are alts scouting enemy space -- Proud member of the [23]. Selling Capital Cargo Bays and Kernite Mining Crystal IIs, cheaper than anyone else.
gfldex	Posted - 2005.09.14 10:14:00 - [44] Originally by: Dark Shikari Most of the people staying in noob corps are alts scouting enemy space Login one of your alts who is in a noob corp and read the corp chat. Then go to Yuali, sit near a highway gate for a while and count players in frigs, CRU und haulers with a noob corp tag. -- $ perl -n -e 'print "Stop blameing pirates! Oveur is the root of all evil!\n" if m/podkill\|lost my ship\|gank\|gate camp\|Verone/;'
Dark Shikari	Posted - 2005.09.14 10:40:00 - [45] Originally by: gfldex Originally by: Dark Shikari Most of the people staying in noob corps are alts scouting enemy space Login one of your alts who is in a noob corp and read the corp chat. Then go to Yuali, sit near a highway gate for a while and count players in frigs, CRU und haulers with a noob corp tag. Yes, there are also trading alts. If you go to noob corp chat and ask who is an alt, everyone will jump in and say yes. The number of real newbies = rookie help channel size divided by two or three (as most have joined a corp). Especially in state war academy, probably at least half the channel are alts, whether for scouting or trading or just seeing the market in Oursaelert without going there. -- Proud member of the [23]. Selling Capital Cargo Bays and Kernite Mining Crystal IIs, cheaper than anyone else.
Nakatre Read	Posted - 2005.09.14 10:52:00 - [46] Quote: Especially in state war academy, probably at least half the channel are alts, whether for scouting or trading or just seeing the market in Oursaelert without going there. How does one go check the Gallente market in a Caldari noob corp without having to leave the station? I also do not think everyone will just jump up and say "yes! i am an alt! (and proud of it)" There are more newbies in a noob corp than you think, not everyone joins the help channel, and i've come across a lot of players wanting to figure things out on their own, not wanting to join a corp for the first couple of weeks. To some, joining a corp is a must-do-because-everyone-else-does-it, to others its a (eve) life commitment, like marriage.
Jonathan Davis	Posted - 2005.09.14 11:34:00 - [47] Originally by: gfldex Originally by: Tulor Someone with tech II guns and armor reps, Tech II cap rechargers and all that other good stuff is probably experienced enough to efficently cut through those poor NPC clods. One of our fleet commanders (no names here :) thought it would be a good idea to snipe belt rats. He learnd that belt rats can relocate from a different belt right next to you when you warp in at 100km. He went down befor we where able to help him. Got plenty of money is not the very same to smart or experienced. There are indeed tec 2 items like sensor boosters, tracking comps or guns witch are seldom lost to NPC but a lot tec 2 items are never used in combat and still got high prices. When I tell you ppl loose ships to NPC then I have seen then going down. It's not guessing or wishing it might be so. I know that the human brain is a very effective pattern matching machine. It's so effective that it is able to found patterns where no such are! That's where common myth like 'dont pop the ark roid. i will grow faster then' or 'leave all CRU in a spawn so the BS spawn faster' come from. I learned (the hard way) that common sense is not the best way to get knowledge. Yes sure 'PvP is driving the marked' sounds so nice it has to be true! There are hundreds of ppl in noob corps and there a thousends of small corps that sit in empire all night and day. And none of them does any PvP at all. But feel free to get catched by the common sense trap. Just because your entire experience of EVE combat is against NPCs doesn't mean that is what all of EVE is about. I did missions for ages whilst in the Ushra'Khan, meaning i was at war at the same time. And even though i didn't PvP all that much whilst i was there, the amount of ships i lost in it far outweighed the amount of ships i lost in missions, which is what i spent 95% of my time online doing. And since i turned pirate i killed far more ships in the first 2 weeks than i have ever lost. Sure, 'most ships are lost to NPCs' sounds so crap it must be true, but come on - why, when you look at 'ships destroyed in the last 24hrs' the big blobs are always on the chokepoints? And even if you claim the rest adds up to more than the chokepoints (in number of kills) (which I doubt it does), a large number of the kills that arn't on chokepoints are pirate searching low sec, wars ...etc. Just becuase you have never had much experience of PvP doesn't mean noone else in empire has, i can assure you that there is a very large number of empire corps in wars with each other, from the RP community, alliances / corps with grudges, 'griefers' (i use the term loosely) declaring on carebear corps ...etc. The fact is people learn quickly about how to take on certain NPCs, and what they can and cant handle, and therefore wont lose more than a couple of ships to a new spawn, owing to the fact that NPCs are so predictable. Quote: There are hundreds of ppl in noob corps and there a thousends of small corps that sit in empire all night and day. And none of them does any PvP at all. Yes, and lets guess how many ships the lose compared to the PvP corps
gfldex	Posted - 2005.09.14 11:53:00 - [48] Originally by: Jonathan Davis Just because your entire experience of EVE combat is against NPCs doesn't mean that is what all of EVE is about. Here is a not very up to date list of my pvp experience. Sadly most of my early killmails are lost because of bad clicking skills. http://dexhome.homelinux.org/~dex/eve/killmails.txt And thank you for disqualifying yourself. -- $ perl -n -e 'print "Stop blameing pirates! Oveur is the root of all evil!\n" if m/podkill\|lost my ship\|gank\|gate camp\|Verone/;'
Jonathan Davis	Posted - 2005.09.14 14:05:00 - [49] Originally by: gfldex Originally by: Jonathan Davis Just because your entire experience of EVE combat is against NPCs doesn't mean that is what all of EVE is about. Here is a not very up to date list of my pvp experience. Sadly most of my early killmails are lost because of bad clicking skills. http://dexhome.homelinux.org/~dex/eve/killmails.txt And thank you for disqualifying yourself. Disqualifying myself from what? And ok, so you do have some experience of PvP, i was wrong and being prejudgemental, I apologise. But, having this much 'experience', surely you can't still claim more ships are lost to NPCs. How many have you lost to NPCs compared to in PVP? judging by your killmails, not many.
Zanner	Posted - 2005.09.15 23:50:00 - [50] The best advice I can give you is to make lots of friends and travel in groups in low sec space. And fly cheap ships. When you encounter a pirate, make a collective decision to either run or fight. You would be surprised what 5 frigs can do if they try. Especially with covert ops, you could turn the tables and ruin the pirate's day. This is the way I believe EVE was intended to be played. Bottom line: More people, less chance to die. Convo me in game if you need help with anything. my two

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