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Ramon Ro	Posted - 2005.09.13 22:27:00 - [1] Also known as tech 2 ships. I really dont see this much different than Master levels in some mmorgps or powerscrolls in uo. These simply make tech1 version look like piece of junk and new player have no way to compete against these. When I first started eve I was amazed of the skill system when I reliazed I didnt have to grind and skills I trained were like choices that gave me options for new modules or ships, but now i am reliazing that instead of grinding there is this horrible long waiting before you can get these competive skills.
Kjewla	Posted - 2005.09.13 22:31:00 - [2] Originally by: Ramon Ro Also known as tech 2 ships. I really dont see this much different than Master levels in some mmorgps or powerscrolls in uo. These simply make tech1 version look like piece of junk and new player have no way to compete against these. When I first started eve I was amazed of the skill system when I reliazed I didnt have to grind and skills I trained were like choices that gave me options for new modules or ships, but now i am reliazing that instead of grinding there is this horrible long waiting before you can get these competive skills. Brains are much more important than skills in this game. And for the waiting for the skills, well there is a reason why we never get boored of eve compared to other mmorpg`s out there. Nest etter styrken er ingenting st°rre enn evnen til Õ beherske den. Teddybears Forum
Moghydin	Posted - 2005.09.13 22:32:00 - [3] You're right only in 1 case - in case that you're planning to play Eve exclusively solo. Originally by: Ramon Ro Also known as tech 2 ships. I really dont see this much different than Master levels in some mmorgps or powerscrolls in uo. These simply make tech1 version look like piece of junk and new player have no way to compete against these. When I first started eve I was amazed of the skill system when I reliazed I didnt have to grind and skills I trained were like choices that gave me options for new modules or ships, but now i am reliazing that instead of grinding there is this horrible long waiting before you can get these competive skills.
Ramon Ro	Posted - 2005.09.13 22:44:00 - [4] Originally by: Moghydin You're right only in 1 case - in case that you're planning to play Eve exclusively solo. Originally by: Ramon Ro Also known as tech 2 ships. I really dont see this much different than Master levels in some mmorgps or powerscrolls in uo. These simply make tech1 version look like piece of junk and new player have no way to compete against these. When I first started eve I was amazed of the skill system when I reliazed I didnt have to grind and skills I trained were like choices that gave me options for new modules or ships, but now i am reliazing that instead of grinding there is this horrible long waiting before you can get these competive skills. So in team t1 junk become better? How do you think equal gang with t1 mods would do against gang with t2?
Beovvulf	Posted - 2005.09.13 22:49:00 - [5] Ive lost a vagabond to a thorax. Ive killed a harpy in a kestrel. This game isnt all about your skill points. Pilot skills and putting good thought into a ship setup are much more important. Both of those come from hard work and experience.
Marar	Posted - 2005.09.13 22:55:00 - [6] Edited by: Marar on 13/09/2005 22:56:02 Ramon Tech 2 gear can be a bit of a double edged sword sure it gives you an advantage stat wise but ive seen plenty of people with all tech2 mods get so c*cky that they just rush into battle thinking they are invulnerable have a look in the crime and punishment section there is a post called "underestimating a brutix" where a character flying a brutix(not the person who made the post)destroyed an armaggedon with mostly tech 2 gear. now obviously the brutix is nowhere near as tough and can deal nowhere near as much damage as an armaggedon yet with a little smarts and forethought these advantages can easily be circumvented. Lycanth.
Vydek Daamth	Posted - 2005.09.13 22:55:00 - [7] I remember watching a video not too long ago where a Rifter almost...and I mean almost took down a Wolf. (that was awesome to watch btw.) It came down to about 2 shots. I would guess the Wolf had 5-25 structure left. Its more about how you fit your ship and how you fly it. (as in knowing its strenghts and weaknesses based on your fitting)
Hllaxiu	Posted - 2005.09.13 22:56:00 - [8] Originally by: Ramon Ro So in team t1 junk become better? How do you think equal gang with t1 mods would do against gang with t2? Dunno. Perhaps given exact ship configurations, engagement ranges, skill points of players involved, and irl skill of players involved and you could get an answer. Proud member of Elite Academy.
Moghydin	Posted - 2005.09.13 22:56:00 - [9] Originally by: Ramon Ro So in team t1 junk become better? How do you think equal gang with t1 mods would do against gang with t2? Just curious, why can't you be in a gang with both t1 and t2 ships? Also, smartly picked t1 setup can defeat tech II setup which was not intended to fight against that specific tech 1 setup.
Kyle Caldrel	Posted - 2005.09.13 22:58:00 - [10] t2 is not insta win. Furthermore, if you specialize, it dosent take THAT long to get into tech 2 ships, 2 months tops.
Ramon Ro	Posted - 2005.09.13 22:58:00 - [11] Originally by: Beovvulf Ive lost a vagabond to a thorax. Ive killed a harpy in a kestrel. This game isnt all about your skill points. Pilot skills and putting good thought into a ship setup are much more important. Both of those come from hard work and experience. You were doing something very wrong as well was that harpy pilot. Doesnt change the fact that T2 ships are just like master levels. Saying that eve is all so different and special when it comes to skill training isnt true. It's true eve got offline skill gaining, but it also have long waiting before you can get effective is bad as long grinding.
Remedial	Posted - 2005.09.13 23:04:00 - [12] T2 mods represent more risk for more reward. Somebody spent a lot of time and money getting together a T2 setup vs. the person who flies a T1 setup. Compare the costs of a Dominix fitting 4 Cap Recharger Is (100k total) to 4 Cap Recharger IIs (>40M total). The second Dominix user spent more than 400 times what the original person spent on his ship, for a total benefit of ~20-25% more capacitor recharge per second. An Enyo costs more than 100 times what an Incursus costs. A Deimos costs 20 times what a Thorax costs. These costs are magnified by T2 ships lacking insurance. Economically, it makes more sense to fly T1 ships, but it's much more fun to have the ability to risk a lot of money and fly a T2 or faction ship that has more advantages. I would happily give anybody that wanted to spend billions of isk on a Faction BS with Faction equipment all the advantages of the Marachiel over a Megathron, because I can lose 30 insured Megathrons to that guy's one lost Marachiel, and I would still come out on top. In any given fight, the Marachiel outguns the Mega. But that doesn't mean he'll always win.
Ramon Ro	Posted - 2005.09.13 23:11:00 - [13] Originally by: Remedial T2 mods represent more risk for more reward. Somebody spent a lot of time and money getting together a T2 setup vs. the person who flies a T1 setup. Compare the costs of a Dominix fitting 4 Cap Recharger Is (100k total) to 4 Cap Recharger IIs (>40M total). The second Dominix user spent more than 400 times what the original person spent on his ship, for a total benefit of ~20-25% more capacitor recharge per second. An Enyo costs more than 100 times what an Incursus costs. A Deimos costs 20 times what a Thorax costs. These costs are magnified by T2 ships lacking insurance. Economically, it makes more sense to fly T1 ships, but it's much more fun to have the ability to risk a lot of money and fly a T2 or faction ship that has more advantages. I would happily give anybody that wanted to spend billions of isk on a Faction BS with Faction equipment all the advantages of the Marachiel over a Megathron, because I can lose 30 insured Megathrons to that guy's one lost Marachiel, and I would still come out on top. In any given fight, the Marachiel outguns the Mega. But that doesn't mean he'll always win. So you're saying that pvp comes down isk wars? Isk vs Isk? Time vs Time?
F'nog	Posted - 2005.09.13 23:12:00 - [14] Originally by: Ramon Ro Originally by: Beovvulf Ive lost a vagabond to a thorax. Ive killed a harpy in a kestrel. This game isnt all about your skill points. Pilot skills and putting good thought into a ship setup are much more important. Both of those come from hard work and experience. You were doing something very wrong as well was that harpy pilot. Doesnt change the fact that T2 ships are just like master levels. Saying that eve is all so different and special when it comes to skill training isnt true. It's true eve got offline skill gaining, but it also have long waiting before you can get effective is bad as long grinding. I don't know what a master level is, but a T2 ship is just a ship with some extra doodads. It's not an auto-win ship like in something like WoW where if you have the better armor and sword, you're going to win. You actually have to know how to use a T2 ship to take advantage of its strengths and limit its weaknesses. There's plenty of people in T2 ships who lose them to pilots in T1. They're not automatically better, just as a BS is not automatically better than a cruiser or a frig. Originally by: Idio T Only two types of people I hate in this game: People who discriminate against other races, and the French.
Liu Kaskakka	Posted - 2005.09.13 23:16:00 - [15] This "new players can't compete!" whine is getting almost as beaten to death as ore thief threads. Specialisation, team work, anyone? Which is easier, 2 lvl 5 characters in wow trying to kill a lvl 60 character or 2 2m SP characters, in say a scorp+arma, taking down a 30m SP char in a BS? Get a clue, kthx.
Dark Shikari	Posted - 2005.09.13 23:23:00 - [16] Yeah, we all know how tech 2 ships are an insta win against tech 1 ships! Right? Yeah, of course! -- Proud member of the [23]. Selling Capital Cargo Bays and Kernite Mining Crystal IIs, cheaper than anyone else.
Kanark	Posted - 2005.09.13 23:41:00 - [17] Originally by: Ramon Ro These simply make tech1 version look like piece of junk and new player have no way to compete against these. Check the boards more often, it wasn't more than a couple weeks ago that someone posted the interceptor kill going down to an industrial and 3 rookie ships. If that's not new players being capable of taking on tech 2 ships, I don't know what is. If you take a set value of tech 1 ships against an equal costed force of tech 2 ships, I very much doubt the tech 2 fleet will come out alive, there would be just too many tech 1 ships to take on.
Remedial	Posted - 2005.09.13 23:45:00 - [18] Originally by: Ramon Ro So you're saying that pvp comes down isk wars? Isk vs Isk? Time vs Time? No, that isn't what I said. In fact I specifically said that it was unlikely that a Faction modded Marachiel would beat a T1 Megathron many times in a row, even though he would have to win that often in order to justify his extremely high purchase price and risk. If Time and Money were the only factors in PvP, we would be a level based MMORPG where greater levels meant that you virtually always won against lesser levels, and more money meant that you virtually always won against less money across that same level. That clearly isn't the case, to which the killboards of various alliances and corps will attest. Small, cheap ships are quite capable of outperforming large, expensive ships. And large, cheap ships are quite capable of outperforming small, expensive ships. Younger players with greater out of game skill, luck, or numbers routinely beat older players. It is true that older players win more often than younger players, but much of that is due to accruing out of game skill and learning to deal with pvp situations through trial, error and innovation. It isn't "BS V" vs. "BS IV" which wins a fight between two players, but rather their respective loadouts and how they use them skillfully. I posted a longwinded play making fun of hellwarrior a long time ago because I beat him several times in 1v1 (and actually in 1v2 when he was playing two accounts) because he was so much older than me. He had more than 10M more SP than I did, maybe close to 15 or 20M, but I got the drop on him and I brought an EW Dominix setup to fight his Gankeddon setup outside Yulai X. Guess who won? SP and Isk are probably the least important elements of PvP in Eve. Out of game skill controls far more in a fight, including 1) where you fight 2) when you fight 3) whether to stay or run 4) in what order to call targets 5) the tactical use of modules 6) working as a group to accomplish a series of goals and of course 7) loading your ship out for combat.
Grimpak	Posted - 2005.09.13 23:48:00 - [19] Originally by: Dark Shikari Edited by: Dark Shikari on 13/09/2005 23:25:26 Yeah, we all know how tech 2 ships are an insta win against tech 1 ships! Right? Yeah, of course! (More info: Click the link, check the majority of the AF kills. Notice something about the single ship constantly killing them) bombing kessie ftw \o\ ------------------- Grimpak, all round nice guy
Dark Shikari	Posted - 2005.09.13 23:50:00 - [20] Edited by: Dark Shikari on 13/09/2005 23:50:29 Originally by: Grimpak Originally by: Dark Shikari Edited by: Dark Shikari on 13/09/2005 23:25:26 Yeah, we all know how tech 2 ships are an insta win against tech 1 ships! Right? Yeah, of course! (More info: Click the link, check the majority of the AF kills. Notice something about the single ship constantly killing them) bombing kessie ftw \o\ She is infamous throughout the [5] for her ebil tactics . She taught me how to do it too, and I took down an F-E claw a bit back -- Proud member of the [23]. Selling Capital Cargo Bays and Kernite Mining Crystal IIs, cheaper than anyone else.
Ticondrius	Posted - 2005.09.14 00:12:00 - [21] WTF is a master level? Something from Ever****? I mean, in good ol AD&D we had mastercraft items, is the concept similar? As for T2 making T1 useless, yeah, right. T1 frigs rock when you need a fast, cheap, solution. They're great for building PvP experience for the new pilot too, as if the ship is lost, it's no big deal. T1 cruisers are still excellent ships and used a lot. T2 cruisers are as expensive as battleships to buy and fit, and the insurance is useless...so HACs are used very carefully. poke* Battleships are STILL T1. No one complaining that they suck. Along the same lines, Frieghters and Dreadnoughts are T1 also. A well fitted Brutix can almost match the power of a Deimos...and you can be in one in just a few weeks from day 1. Pilot experience and game education are just as important as skills. This isn't a fragger's game, it's the armchair admiral's game. It requires much thinking and strategy to win in combat. "If I'm brutally honest and it offends you, that's not my fault."
Ampoliros	Posted - 2005.09.14 00:13:00 - [22] Originally by: Ramon Ro Also known as tech 2 ships. I really dont see this much different than Master levels in some mmorgps or powerscrolls in uo. These simply make tech1 version look like piece of junk and new player have no way to compete against these. When I first started eve I was amazed of the skill system when I reliazed I didnt have to grind and skills I trained were like choices that gave me options for new modules or ships, but now i am reliazing that instead of grinding there is this horrible long waiting before you can get these competive skills. This is just inane; tech2 in EVE is nothing like Master levels(at least in daoc as i'm familiar with). While it does take time to get them, you don't: a) have to sign up for a raid with up to 40+ of your fellow eve players b) go on said raid for 3-7? hours, hoping everything goes without a hitch, and no bugs occur, that no one screws up, that you dont get disconnected, that everyone's not afk c) farm for MLxp after completing said 3-7 hour raid. Training for tech2 ships in eve is so comparatively simple, its astounding. It does take time, but simply put, if you specialize - that is, don't say try to get tech2 stuff in every single type at once. I mean, some tech2 stuff requires like 2days more training than tech1 stuff; gyro2s, etc. Some takes longer, but is quite doable. Not to mention, tech2 variants don't require that you have 40 people sitting around you who know exactly what to do. :P ------------------------------------
Jaabaa Prime	Posted - 2005.09.14 00:21:00 - [23] Originally by: Ramon Ro So in team t1 junk become better? How do you think equal gang with t1 mods would do against gang with t2? Have you seen a BS run away from a bunch of T1 Frigates ? I have. Have you seen a HAC run away from a bunch of T1 Frigates ? I have. Have you seen a T2 AS or T2 Inty run away from a bunch of T1 Frigates ? I have. Get a clue, get organised, then return to the boards. -- Intergalactic Teeth Pullers "Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former." Albert Einstein
Allen Deckard	Posted - 2005.09.14 00:39:00 - [24] Originally by: Jaabaa Prime Originally by: Ramon Ro So in team t1 junk become better? How do you think equal gang with t1 mods would do against gang with t2? Have you seen a BS run away from a bunch of T1 Frigates ? I have. Have you seen a HAC run away from a bunch of T1 Frigates ? I have. Have you seen a T2 AS or T2 Inty run away from a bunch of T1 Frigates ? I have. Get a clue, get organised, then return to the boards. Get a clue yourself then return to the boards AFTER you read a post eheh? Lets see what did he say? So in team t1 junk become better? How do you think equal gang with t1 mods would do against gang with t2? He said GANG of t1 against GANG of t2. YOU in your infinate wisdom translated this to. some sort of twisted thing of a bunch of t1 frigs killing a bs ect ect. See key words of GANG AGAINST GANG. I am so sick of all the b.s. posts of how equal t1 and t2 are. Or how it's all in the pilots skill of setup or even how it's all the t1 guys fault cause he didn't come to the field with 3 guys to kill the 1 in the t2 setup. Look t2 is far and beyond more powerfull than t1 what is so hard to admit about that? Why is it so hard to admit that it is infinately easier to setup a t2 ship than a t1? And that a gang of t2 is gonna womp butt on any t1 gang of same size. Yes yes yes there is that 1 drunk-ass fool that you were capable of killing on a sat night when he was nearly passed out and forgot to turn on a hardner or maybe never realized he was being shot at until he was dead but it's the exception not the rule. MOST anyone that has skilled up into a hac has a pretty good idea how to set it up by the time he gets there.
OffBeaT	Posted - 2005.09.14 00:49:00 - [25] oh save it, if you cant fit the mods or lack in firepower your dead... ok, i would agree with you in the past about being able too be a smart/crafty pilot but not today. today its eather you have the skills worked for the most part or you sit around and wait too have the ability too do what you wont too. today i would scare the living crap out of a 10 man noob corp hands down solo. in the past no-way.
SengH	Posted - 2005.09.14 00:51:00 - [26] there is always a t1 setup that can be used to beat a t2 setup. Nuff said.
OffBeaT	Posted - 2005.09.14 00:54:00 - [27] hehe, yea.. they can tank and run. oh wait, they can jam there way out. naaa! you need at lest all ew skills too 4 at lest too pull that off these day.
Hllaxiu	Posted - 2005.09.14 00:56:00 - [28] Edited by: Hllaxiu on 14/09/2005 00:56:39 Originally by: Allen Deckard Look t2 is far and beyond more powerfull than t1 what is so hard to admit about that? Why is it so hard to admit that it is infinately easier to setup a t2 ship than a t1? And that a gang of t2 is gonna womp butt on any t1 gang of same size. Tech 1: 8 Tempests 2 Scorpions - cycle Jamming Tech 2: 10 HACs of your choice. Proud member of Elite Academy.
SengH	Posted - 2005.09.14 00:57:00 - [29] large NOS is t1 and is the wtfpwn module vs hacs.......
Kunming	Posted - 2005.09.14 00:59:00 - [30] Edited by: Kunming on 14/09/2005 01:00:10 I have beaten HACs with my BC on many 1on1s. What you initially said is actually true, skills open you up the use of new equipment but its up to you how you fit them. There will come a point where you have all your skills at lvl 5 in a profession that you wanna go further, thats the reason for the specialisation and T2. I think your point of view is wrong, you have to see the pilot as the most valuable asset, 1 interceptor will kill a T1 frig in most cases but make that 2 T1 frigs and things get evened out pretty much. About dreads, they are not T2, even the vets must train for months to use them properly add another 1-2 months if you dont have the initial skills. Besides if you'r a space cadette fresh out of the academy you didnt expect to get close to high tech military equipment anytime soon,did ya? Intercepting since BETA

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