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AlexCA
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Posted - 2005.09.14 20:41:00 -
[1]
hey, relatively new player here (a month old or so).
Loving the game so far but there is one point that annoys me to quite some extent.
Me and my corpmates have been mining in 2/3 man groups with destroyers and a huge secure container. we're already running into the problem that the container sometimes fills so fast we have to have one person almost continually moving a industrial between the mining site and the nearest station. I cringe to think how to handle this when were actually using ships that are ment to mine.
the answer to this problem is quite obvious: use a jetcan.
however here is where my frustrations lie.
Whats the prupose of secure containers when they only hold 3900M3 for the price of 200K+ if you can launch a free ludicrously large container. I understand that these containers were never intended to be used for mining but were made this large to accomedate dropped loot, and transfer stuff between ships in space.
thats why I suggest making jetcans smaller (which rats actually drop 27900 or summat M^3 of loot?) making larger secure containers.
my idea is something along the lines of this:
have these new secure containers the same volume as current huge secure containers while increasing their cargo capacity a lot, but only usable (putting stuff in and out of it) when they are anchored, and only allowing anchoring/unanchoring when they are empty.(to prevent them being used as uber cargo expanders) to prevent them being misused near POS as alternatives to hangars and SILO's simply make them not deployable near POS's
any comment/criticisms/horrible flamage of this idea?
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MWEI
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Posted - 2005.09.14 20:48:00 -
[2]
the key is the word SECURE. need I say more?
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AlexCA
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Posted - 2005.09.14 20:59:00 -
[3]
definatly but its a dead end, mining your ore into a "secure" container becomes pretty much stops becoming a viable option past a certain point, It would seem more logical that the costless option should become useless once you progres beyond a certain point.
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Shinnen
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Posted - 2005.09.14 21:22:00 -
[4]
Sry buy i fail to see what you are getting at. What's the point, sum it up in 1 or 2 sentences please :)
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Shinnen
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Guardian Alpha
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Posted - 2005.09.14 21:37:00 -
[5]
 Quote:
definatly but its a dead end, mining your ore into a "secure" container becomes pretty much stops becoming a viable option past a certain point
Good miners eventually learn (not insinuating you are a bad miner) that multiple secure cans at a similar location in a trinagular position (cans at the 3 points) provide an very respectable amount of ore security for mining. The problem isn't that you are running out of space rather than these two points:
1. You've already tasted jet can mining and thus doing something that was indeed origonally meant for mining securly seems a bit useless due to the speed and efficiency of jet-can mining. It's true jet can mining is faster than secure can mining, but that doesn't mean secure can mining is useless. Just that certain miners have not yet streamlined the tactic because it is not mainstream and secondly because they would rather mine solo and expect the same profit as group mining.
2. Mining solo shouldn't be as profitable as mining with a group, and not just for sheer amount of ore. Someone with a group can handle 2 secure cans with ease as a hauler insta jumps from one point to a nother, cleaning out all 3 secure cans with a single jump. By they time it comes back, they generally will not be full enough to take again for another minute or two. OF course, the more people you have the more secure cans/haulers you need. But that's the bullet of mining into a secure can for the additional defence (they don't pop easily) against fighters and ore thieves (password anyone?).
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Brolly
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Posted - 2005.09.14 22:54:00 -
[6]
What we need is larger secure cans which can hold an indy's worth of ore, the largest secure cans are now virtually obselete when you can fill one in no time at all with t2 strip miners.
Also with larger cans it should (in theory at least) cut down on all the can spam around belts.
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Dark Shikari
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Posted - 2005.09.14 23:17:00 -
[7]
Originally by: Guardian Alpha
Quote:
definatly but its a dead end, mining your ore into a "secure" container becomes pretty much stops becoming a viable option past a certain point
Good miners eventually learn (not insinuating you are a bad miner) that multiple secure cans at a similar location in a trinagular position (cans at the 3 points) provide an very respectable amount of ore security for mining. The problem isn't that you are running out of space rather than these two points:
1. You've already tasted jet can mining and thus doing something that was indeed origonally meant for mining securly seems a bit useless due to the speed and efficiency of jet-can mining. It's true jet can mining is faster than secure can mining, but that doesn't mean secure can mining is useless. Just that certain miners have not yet streamlined the tactic because it is not mainstream and secondly because they would rather mine solo and expect the same profit as group mining.
2. Mining solo shouldn't be as profitable as mining with a group, and not just for sheer amount of ore. Someone with a group can handle 2 secure cans with ease as a hauler insta jumps from one point to a nother, cleaning out all 3 secure cans with a single jump. By they time it comes back, they generally will not be full enough to take again for another minute or two. OF course, the more people you have the more secure cans/haulers you need. But that's the bullet of mining into a secure can for the additional defence (they don't pop easily) against fighters and ore thieves (password anyone?).
The ultimate mining setup is a tetrahedron  . 4 secure cans in a tetrahedral shape provides nearly 16km3 of ore storage, all within a 5km sphere.
--
Proud member of the [23].
Selling Capital Cargo Bays and Kernite Mining Crystal IIs, cheaper than anyone else. |
Arcticblue2
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Posted - 2005.09.15 06:43:00 -
[8]
Originally by: Dark Shikari
The ultimate mining setup is a tetrahedron . 4 secure cans in a tetrahedral shape provides nearly 16km3 of ore storage, all within a 5km sphere.
Well that is not good enough is it ??? my hauler takes 22K m3 of ore, 5 km sphere you mean you have to move around to fill the cans ??? or can you stand stationary like I do when I jet can mine ?
I do mining in a large miningbarge ... it just is not good enough for a serious miner today... for newbies yes it is a good option.
Now if CCP would make a new secure can (bigger built for large miningbarges), and make these anchorable but destruct after like ... 1 day or so unless it is taken in.. (should cost some isk too so it encourage people to take it in).
For the post starter... Jetcan mining is a viable option if you are several guys (one hauler) make instantbookmarks between the miningop and station.
If for example you guys are jetcan mining you got to remember that this is not a safe option... orethief can come along and take your ore.
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"When I was a child, I spoke as a child, I felt as a child, I thought as a child: now that I am become a man, I have put away childish things."
1 cor. |
Pychian Vanervi
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Posted - 2005.09.15 08:07:00 -
[9]
Here is a thought......
mine in a .4 and below system into a normal jet can?
Pick a system plenty of jumps off the main drag and with a station and voila peaceful mining all day long.
Even if some evil pirate type comes along to ruin your day the ammount of ore you have mined before he get there hassle free will make up for any lost time dealing with him. So no need to worry about can size space and positioning.
Watch local, keep aligned and jobs a good un....
...not sure why i am trying to help!! 
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It's all about the fortune and glory, fortune and glory!
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Avon
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Posted - 2005.09.15 08:18:00 -
[10]
Stop moaning that mining solo is less profitable or more risky.
Miner mines to secure can, hauler takes from secure can.
Think of it as a method of transfer, not storage.
______________________________________________
Pay or pray..er..prey..yeah, pray you aren't prey. Er, just pay. |
MaiLina KaTar
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Posted - 2005.09.15 08:39:00 -
[11]
Edited by: MaiLina KaTar on 15/09/2005 08:43:51
Quote:
Sry buy i fail to see what you are getting at. What's the point, sum it up in 1 or 2 sentences please :)
The point is: you have cans holding 27.5k m¦ ore for free, whereas cans which cost you 300.000 isk hold the hilarious amount of 3.900m¦.
Giant secure cans should infact have their 3.900m¦ cargo while unanchored or stored in a ship's cargo, but they should go to 27.5k m¦ when anchored.
Face it, there *is* no valid reason why it shouldn't be this way. You pay quite a bit of cash for these damn things so they should be better than a free jetcan, in all aspects.
As a useful sideeffect this would also resolve the ore thieving issue and remove the need for the developers to waste their time coding extensive criminal flagging mechanics that are much more likely to cause bugs and exploits.
Quote:
Miner mines to secure can, hauler takes from secure can.
Think of it as a method of transfer, not storage.
Yeah... try doing that when you have 4 Covetors sitting in the belt. Face reality plz.
Mai's Idealog |
Avon
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Posted - 2005.09.15 08:53:00 -
[12]
Originally by: MaiLina KaTar
You pay quite a bit of cash for these damn things so they should be better than a free jetcan, in all aspects.
Why?
Jetcan lasts a couple of hours, a secure can is for life.
______________________________________________
Pay or pray..er..prey..yeah, pray you aren't prey. Er, just pay. |
MaiLina KaTar
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Posted - 2005.09.15 09:01:00 -
[13]
Edited by: MaiLina KaTar on 15/09/2005 09:01:23
Originally by: Avon
Originally by: MaiLina KaTar
You pay quite a bit of cash for these damn things so they should be better than a free jetcan, in all aspects.
Why?
Jetcan lasts a couple of hours, a secure can is for life.
Jetcans last as long as I want them to. Takes 5 seconds to renew them.
To any serious miner there is no practical difference between a giant sec and a jetcan. The only difference is that a free jetcan holds 7 times as much as the giant, making the giant effectively useless for mining ops.
IMO it shouldn't be this way. Why should a free item be better than something you pay 300k for?
Mai's Idealog |
The PigDog
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Posted - 2005.09.15 09:10:00 -
[14]
your all missing the point, we as corp mine with 6 barges, and 2 indys, to haul the jet can is the only option for us, and as for giant sec cans you have all yet to grasp there one and only use.
Cargo expander+s The can takes up 3km3, but has 3.9k m3 inside it, it's like a tradis biger on the inside, fill you indys with the best cargo expanders u can then fill it with jet cans, and you have even more room than you had before.
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Avon
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Posted - 2005.09.15 09:13:00 -
[15]
Originally by: MaiLina KaTar
Edited by: MaiLina KaTar on 15/09/2005 09:01:23
Originally by: Avon
Originally by: MaiLina KaTar
You pay quite a bit of cash for these damn things so they should be better than a free jetcan, in all aspects.
Why?
Jetcan lasts a couple of hours, a secure can is for life.
Jetcans last as long as I want them to. Takes 5 seconds to renew them.
To any serious miner there is no practical difference between a giant sec and a jetcan. The only difference is that a free jetcan holds 7 times as much as the giant, making the giant effectively useless for mining ops.
IMO it shouldn't be this way. Why should a free item be better than something you pay 300k for?
No, you are right.
Make it impossibe to add to jetcans - that would make everything fair.
______________________________________________
Pay or pray..er..prey..yeah, pray you aren't prey. Er, just pay. |
Baleine4Nerver
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Posted - 2005.09.15 10:42:00 -
[16]
what about a secure "Mining Container" Specially designed for loading ore. 10,000 m3 or summik, maybe a new skill that ties in with mining skills and anchorable containers.
So you need to be a well trained miner to use one.
===============================================
In the immortal words of Socrates...
"I drank what ? " |
Jastra
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Posted - 2005.09.15 11:06:00 -
[17]
Originally by: Arcticblue2
Originally by: Dark Shikari
The ultimate mining setup is a tetrahedron . 4 secure cans in a tetrahedral shape provides nearly 16km3 of ore storage, all within a 5km sphere.
Well that is not good enough is it ??? my hauler takes 22K m3 of ore, 5 km sphere you mean you have to move around to fill the cans ??? or can you stand stationary like I do when I jet can mine ?
I do mining in a large miningbarge ... it just is not good enough for a serious miner today... for newbies yes it is a good option.
Now if CCP would make a new secure can (bigger built for large miningbarges), and make these anchorable but destruct after like ... 1 day or so unless it is taken in.. (should cost some isk too so it encourage people to take it in).
For the post starter... Jetcan mining is a viable option if you are several guys (one hauler) make instantbookmarks between the miningop and station.
If for example you guys are jetcan mining you got to remember that this is not a safe option... orethief can come along and take your ore.
Surely this is just an issue of Balance, group mining is efficient and fosters online play and playing together, jetcan mining is efficient in large groups as someone can haul.
If a solo player could effectively secure jetcan mine, where is the challenge vs reward and effort?
If it was easy, we'd all get bored, life is a compromise, this is a multiplayer game so I;m guessing lots of things are set to try and encourage working in a team
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Arcticblue2
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Posted - 2005.09.15 12:33:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Jastra
Surely this is just an issue of Balance, group mining is efficient and fosters online play and playing together, jetcan mining is efficient in large groups as someone can haul.
If a solo player could effectively secure jetcan mine, where is the challenge vs reward and effort?
If it was easy, we'd all get bored, life is a compromise, this is a multiplayer game so I;m guessing lots of things are set to try and encourage working in a team
Well yeah who said a large mining container needs to be secure, it only needs to be a container that you have to buy and can anchor but also... it is destructable so it don't litter the belts.
Besides... in a larger miningops I can guarantee you that using giant secure containers definitly don't hold water... if several barges (and we happens to be like that) work together then even my hauling alt can get problems and it can haul 22 500 m3 of ore at the time !!! so it is good to have some sort of buffer on the containerside...
----------------------------------------------
"When I was a child, I spoke as a child, I felt as a child, I thought as a child: now that I am become a man, I have put away childish things."
1 cor. |
Avon
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Posted - 2005.09.15 12:38:00 -
[19]
Originally by: Arcticblue2
Originally by: Jastra
Surely this is just an issue of Balance, group mining is efficient and fosters online play and playing together, jetcan mining is efficient in large groups as someone can haul.
If a solo player could effectively secure jetcan mine, where is the challenge vs reward and effort?
If it was easy, we'd all get bored, life is a compromise, this is a multiplayer game so I;m guessing lots of things are set to try and encourage working in a team
Well yeah who said a large mining container needs to be secure, it only needs to be a container that you have to buy and can anchor but also... it is destructable so it don't litter the belts.
Besides... in a larger miningops I can guarantee you that using giant secure containers definitly don't hold water... if several barges (and we happens to be like that) work together then even my hauling alt can get problems and it can haul 22 500 m3 of ore at the time !!! so it is good to have some sort of buffer on the containerside...
If it doesn't have to be secure then what is wrong with a jetcan?
______________________________________________
Pay or pray..er..prey..yeah, pray you aren't prey. Er, just pay. |
Don't Panic
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Posted - 2005.09.15 12:46:00 -
[20]
The jetcan is THE corner stone of EVE. Nerf it, and you nerf EVERYTHING. Its importance can not be stressed enough.
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Avon
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Posted - 2005.09.15 12:59:00 -
[21]
Originally by: Don't Panic
The jetcan is THE corner stone of EVE. Nerf it, and you nerf EVERYTHING. Its importance can not be stressed enough.
I'd take that risk.
______________________________________________
Pay or pray..er..prey..yeah, pray you aren't prey. Er, just pay. |
Bsport
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Posted - 2005.09.15 13:13:00 -
[22]
i still think the option to load directly into a gang indy's cargo would be very cool!
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Seleene
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Posted - 2005.09.15 13:13:00 -
[23]
I am in absolute awe of this thread. I've seen people discuss ship setups for PvP and even argue about how to best use a hauler... but the configuration of cans for mining? Wow. That's just... wow! 
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We're outnumbered! That simplifies the problem! |
Spy4Hire
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Posted - 2005.09.15 13:19:00 -
[24]
Originally by: Dark Shikari
The ultimate mining setup is a tetrahedron . 4 secure cans in a tetrahedral shape provides nearly 16km3 of ore storage, all within a 5km sphere.
1 jettison can provides 27.5 thousand cubic meters of storage space within 500 meters, so feneagaling 4 cans to anchor themselves in a usable range is pointless (as you cannot anchor them within a usable range from the asteroids, either).
The simple solution would be to just remove a zero from the size of jet cans. That would force people to use larger (i.e. secure) cans to be productive.
JSYK: You can jettison as many secure cans as you want, and access them, just fine without anchoring them. Thus you could spit out ten cans in a 2km area and open all of them if you wanted. But they would be just as unsecure as a jet can... any hauler can come along and simply scoop the whole can.
CCP has designed the game expressly this way to foster thieves in high sec, giving them excellent training in being absolute asswipes in empire so that they might eventually graduate out to 0.0 and become anal rimmers.
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