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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 58 post(s) |
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Tuxford
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Posted - 2005.09.15 16:13:00 -
[1]
Stats and bonuses might change before this hit TQ
Frigates
Mining
Tormentor
- Gets an extra low slot
- CPU output increased to 140tf
Bantam
- Gets an extra low slot
- CPU output increased to 150tf
Navitas
- Gets an extra med slot
- CPU output increased to 150tf
Burst
- Gets an extra med slot
- CPU output increased to 140tf
Tackling
Executioner
- Max velocity increased to 410m/s
Condor
- New mass 1 150 000 kg
- Poweroutput increased to 25MW
- High slot added
- Max velocity increased to 375m/s
- Turret hardpoint changed to launcher hardpoint
- Existing bonuses replaced with 5% missile kinetic damage per level and 10% missile velocity per level
Atron
- New Mass 1 100 000 kg
- Max velocity increased to 380m/s
- Targetting range bonus replaced with 10% bonus to small hybrids falloff per level
Slasher
- Max velocity increased to 390m/s
- Max velocity bonus replaced with 5% projectile damage per level
Scout All the Scout frigates get one of their bonuses replaced with 5% bonus to scan probe duration. Heron
- CPU output increased to 250tf
- Launcher slot added
- Targetting range bonus replaced with scout bonus
Imicus
- CPU output increased to 230tf
- Small hybrid damage bonus replaced with scout bonus
Probe
- CPU output increased to 220tf
- Max velocity bonus replaced with scout bonus
EWAR I haven't really changed these ones, their bonuses already make them pretty unique. Vigil
- Max velocity bonus replaced with 5% small projectile damage bonus per level
Assault The missile frigates, Inquisitor, Kestrel and Breacher have all lost their rate of fire bonus. Instead they get 5% damage per level to all missile damage types except for their race specific damage type where they get 10% per level.
Punisher
- Poweroutput increased to 45MW
- CPU output decreased to 115tf
- Capacitor capacity increased to 340
- Cap recharge bonus replaced with 5% armor resistance per level
Merlin
- Gets an extra med slot
- CPU output increased to 175tf
- Capacitor Capacity increased to 280
- Shield hitpoint bonus replaced with 5% shield resistance per level
Tristan
- Poweroutput increased ot 38MW
- Max velocity increased to 260m/s
- Capacitor capacity increased to 280
Rifter
- Poweroutput increased to 37MW
- Max velocity increased to 320m/s
- Max velocity bonus replaced with 10% accuracy falloff per level
Inquisitor
- Poweroutput increased to 32MW
- High slot added
- Max velocity increased to 270m/s
Kestrel
- Max Velocity increased to 260m/s
- CPU output increased to 150tf
Incursus
- Poweroutput increased to 34MW
- Max velocity increased to 300m/s
- CPU output decreased to 110tf
- Capacitor capacity increased to 260
- Tracking bonus replaced with 10% accuracy falloff per level
Breacher
- Poweroutput increased to 31MW
- CPU output increased to 135tf
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Tuxford
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Posted - 2005.09.15 16:13:00 -
[2]
Cruisers
Mining The Mining Ships Osprey and Scythe are the best miners of it's race and I don't see any reason to change that.
Logistic Augoror
- Existing bonuses replaced with 150% bonus to range and 10% bonus to remote armor repairer cap efficiency per level
Exequror
- Bonuses replaced with 150% bonus to range and 5% bonus to effect of tracking links per level
EWAR The EWAR cruisers get a bonus to
Arbitrator
- Low slot changed to a med slot
- Medium energy weapon cap reduction bonus replaced with 5% bonus to tracking disruptors efficiency per level
Blackbird
Celestis
- High slot changed to a med slot
Bellicose
- Low slot changed to a med slot
- Max velocity bonus replaced with 5% bonus to target painter effect per level
Assault
Maller
- Poweroutput increased to 900MW
- CPU output decreased to 270tf
Moa
- Shield boost bonus changed to 5% shield resists per level
- CPU output increased to 400tf
Thorax
- Dronebay decreased to 100m^3
- Poweroutput increased to 850MW
Rupture
- Poweroutput increased to 850MW
- CPU output increased to 45tf
Omen
- Launcher hardpoint added
- Poweroutput increased to 730MW
- CPU output decreased to 250tf
Caracal
- Poweroutput decreased to 530MW
- CPU output increased to 350tf
Vexor
- Poweroutput increased to 675MW
- CPU output decreased to 270tf
Stabber
- Poweroutput increased to 700MW
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Tuxford
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Posted - 2005.09.16 10:23:00 -
[3]
I'm getting some nice feedback here, thanks. I wanted to post here sooner but was a bit busy last night. Some things I just want to clarify and justify.
First faction cruisers and frigates are getting a look at too. As do Battlecruisers and Destroyers. Actually the Battlecruisers do have new stats.
Prophecy
Ferox
Brutix
- Powergrid 1150MW
- CPU output 425tf
- Armor repair bonus increased to 7.5% per level
Cyclone
- Powergrid 1210MW
- CPU output 425tf
- Shield boost bonus increased to 7.5% per level
Thorax drone bay reduction Let's take a look at the numbers. Thorax with 5 medium pulse laser does 56 hitpoints/sec. A maller with 5 heavy pulse lasers does 69 hitpoints/sec. The difference is 13 hitpoints/sec. Now guess what the damage output of 8 Ogre I drones are. I'll give it away it's 140.8 hitpoints/sec. Surely drones have their drawbacks but this difference in damage output is a bit extreme. Even with when the drone bay has been halved Thorax gets quite an extra damage output from it's drones, and is still a much better drone carrier than every other assault ship except for the Vexor.
Minmatar speed reduction I forgot to increase the Probe and Vigil speed when I removed the velocity bonus. They are now the fastest ships within their class. The Velocity bonus was removed from all the Minmatar frigates, it was just creating too much imbalance.
Mining ships Forgot that the mining frigs get a 20% bonus to mining yield per level which should make them worth getting as a first mining ship. They also get 5% cargo per level.
Missile rate of fire bonus removed Too high ROF is bad for the server so those bonuses have been changed to damage. _______________ |
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Tuxford
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Posted - 2005.09.16 10:36:00 -
[4]
Originally by: Darius Shakor
OK this is so wrong. Leave the probe as it is. It is a gread little fast cargo ship. You know those missions where you get a cargo around 500m3? Who the hell want's to drudge about in a fat indy for that? You saddle up the probe. It seems that Cargo runners are a group left out here so why not make the group for this ship and have a little more emphasis on smuggling? Please, make this the first steps towards light smuggling duty with a 10% reduced chance of customs finding the goods per skill level. So many people will love you for it and, keeping with the back story of the minmatars, it would make a hell of a lot more sence than a scan probe ship.
With good skills the probe now gets 337.5 m/sec. so that's basically a 37.5m/sec reduction in speed, it won't kill anyone, it will still be my loot ship of choice. _______________ |
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Tuxford
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Posted - 2005.09.16 10:51:00 -
[5]
Originally by: Darius Shakor
OK but can it still make those 500m3 agent cargo runs without having to shell out for top end cargo expanders? I am not refering to the speed because I guessed the increase of base speed was to compensate for the speed bonus loss.
And I still think a Minmatar scan probe ship is against the spirit of Minmatar ship philosophy. Seems the change was done simply for the sake of it rather than it being needed. It just doesn't fit the theme of the Minmatar or the game itself.
It still has it's cargo bay bonus, so nothing has changed there it's just a slightly slower ship. It's not as good miner as it used to be but as every race has a competant mining ship now I think it's more than justified. _______________ |
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Tuxford
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Posted - 2005.09.16 10:56:00 -
[6]
I have my doubts about Bellicose as well. The other EWAR cruiser gets defensive bonuses, that is a jammed ship can't target you, a sensor dampened ship can not target you if you stay out of range and a tracking disrupted ship is pretty much immune to big guns. The target painters however make the targetted ship easier to hit and really annoyed with you. Kind of like sneaking up to a T-Rex and painting a bullseye on it _______________ |
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Tuxford
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Posted - 2005.09.16 11:08:00 -
[7]
Originally by: Alex Harumichi I also urge you to rethink the Exequror change, I really don't see anyone using it with the new bonuses and it's a cruiser a lot of people use right now in the "heavy hauler" role. Making a useful ship useless isn't the aim here, I suspect. [:|
I am rethinking it and actually have been thinking that this whole process. I know logistic isn't the most hip thing around these days but I still think it's good that new players have some entry level ship into that role. _______________ |
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Tuxford
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Posted - 2005.09.16 11:10:00 -
[8]
Originally by: Alex Harumichi
Please change the hybrid damage bonus into a (racial?) drone damage bonus or something else suitable to the drone role.
I kind of like that idea. _______________ |
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Tuxford
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Posted - 2005.09.16 15:31:00 -
[9]
Originally by: d'hofren Could you elaborate on how speed was causing an imbalance?
Rifter going 375m/sec when the fastest non minmatar frigate goes 285m/sec. That is Rifter goes 31.6% faster than Incursus, 26.3% at level 4. It is also the lightest assault frigate around which means it gets the most out of afterburner and mwd's.
They do have in general less armor hp and shield hp but not that much, ranging somewhere between 5% to 15%. Not that these numbers mean that much, how much more shield hitpoint should a merlin have if Rifter has 40% more velocity. Personally I think speed on a frigate is much more valuable than hitpoints.
Rifter however has less slots than the other primary assault frigs (Punisher, Merlin, Tristan) so I've been contemplating giving an extra low slot, which should work out just fine as you could just put a overdrive there to get similar speeds as you are getting now.
Minmatar frigates are still the fastest frigates around if you don't believe me just check how many minmatar frigates go faster than 300m/sec and then check how many of the other races frigs can. I'll safe you some time, apart from the dogfighting/tackling frigs then it's only incursus that can reach 300m/sec. Vigil, Breacher, Rifter and Probe all reach 300m/sec. _______________ |
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Tuxford
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Posted - 2005.09.16 15:35:00 -
[10]
Originally by: keepiru When can we get our dirty paws on them on SISI?
You should be able to get them now in fight club hangar. _______________ |
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Tuxford
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Posted - 2005.09.16 15:43:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Nafri why not giving rifter a third midslot, which is much more needed?
Also as you said:
Rifter does less damage/is more fragile/fewer slots
how should that be compensated? A lowslot wont help it anyway, cause it doesnt have CPU for an additional damage mod, nor you can tank it. Rifter is made for autocannons, not for howitzers, howitzers track soo poor and do less damage then most other frigate sized weapons, especially 250mm. And without the ability to web/scramble at once rifter is not even close to be able to compete against a ship like the imicus or punisher.
We'll see, as I've already given Merlin 4 med slots I more willing to give med slots to the Rifter, no promises though _______________ |
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Tuxford
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Posted - 2005.09.26 13:42:00 -
[12]
Mining and Logistic class updated. _______________ |
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Tuxford
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Posted - 2005.09.26 13:43:00 -
[13]
Originally by: Erim Kaluk
Originally by: Tuxford Cruisers
Bellicose
- Low slot changed to a med slot
- Max velocity bonus replaced with 5% bonus to target painter effect per level
The Bellicose doesn't have a Max velocity bonus. It has rate of fire and optimal range on Turret bonuses. Which bonus is getting taken away?
Ooops, it's the optimal range bonus that is taken away. _______________ |
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Tuxford
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Posted - 2005.09.27 12:02:00 -
[14]
I haven't commented on the Minmatar velocity reduction because frankly I haven't seen one good arguement against it. So far I've only heard "Minmatar are supposed to be the fast race". Well guess what, they still are. Rifter is the fastas assault frigate in game. It's also the lightest one. Are you going to tell me that Rifter doesn't have a significant speed advantage over Merlin, Punisher and even Tristan. The only ship that even comes close is Incursus although it comes pretty damn close.
Vigil is as fast as Rifter and there isn't a EWAR frigate that comes close to it when we consider speed. Probe can still be used as a fast loot ship and actually isn't that much slower. The only ship that isn't fastest one in it's role is Slasher, if someone are then point them out.
Bottomline is that if you want me to consider boosting Minmatars speed more then give me some arguements other then, "it's supposed to be faster" when it clearly and obviously is. Show me that Minmatars speed advantage is less than Caldari's shield advantage and Amarr's armor advantage.
Same goes for Thorax's drone bay, show me that the drone bay nerf was unjustified and not by saying that Gallente is supposed to be the drone race because they still are even with Thorax's half drone bay. _______________ |
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Tuxford
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Posted - 2005.09.27 12:44:00 -
[15]
Originally by: Khaldorn Murino I never thought our speed bonus was better than the Caldari or Amarr armour/shield bonuses. I just thought it was the only area where we were better than another race.
However, is the speed bonus meant to be as effective as caldari's shields/damge and amarrians armour/damage?
Well it's really comparing apples and oranges. How many m/sec should a Rifter go compared to shield hp on a Merlin. The point is not to blindly compare how Rifter/Vigil/Probe were before the changes and how they are now but compare how Rifter is after the changes compared to Merlin/Punisher/Tristan... and so on. One might argue that Rifter needs another slot as it's speed has been reduced a bit. Also is 320m/sec and another bonus so much worse than 360m/sec at frigate level 5. _______________ |
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Tuxford
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Posted - 2005.09.27 12:45:00 -
[16]
Originally by: RedWyvern will faction ships be boosted in line with these changes? If not, many will rapidly lose their purpose - being slightly more uber for a signifigant cost.
The goal is not to make faction ships lose their purpose, tbh I think some of them, especially the navy frigs are to underpowered at the moment. _______________ |
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Tuxford
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Posted - 2005.09.27 13:44:00 -
[17]
Originally by: Nyxus Good job on the minnie frigs - now they are still faster, just not twice as fast.
Why can the Rax, Moa, and Rupture all fit thier strongest T2 medium weapons 250mmII's and 720mm II's .....
.....and the Maller/Omen can't fit T2 Beams?
Why does the Maller only have 50 more grid than the Rax when it's weapons need so much more to fit while lacking any dronebay?
Heavy Beam II = 275 grid per gun/ 22 cap per shot
250mm II = 236 grid per gun/ 10 cap per shot
Doesn't the Maller need at least 200 more grid just to mount it's heaviest weapons like the other 3 races?
If you won't boost the Maller, can you at least boost the Omen so it can fit 4 Heavy Beam II's easily? Then the Omen could actually have some reason exist, rather than being inferior to the Maller in every way - damage output, armor, grid, cpu, etc?
See those are some real arguements, only use tech 1 guns when you are comparing guns on a tech 1 ship and don't forget to take into effect the more grid you have the more grid you get out of grid upgrades and engineering skill. It might seem that Maller has less grid to spare but it also should have more cpu to spare.
The Omen and Maller is a bit of a problem because Amarr hasn't got any real speciality like Caldari and Gallente so it's hard to make a ship that is a combat ship but still different. The Omen should outdamage a Maller though with good Amarr cruiser skill and a missile launcher. _______________ |
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Tuxford
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Posted - 2005.09.27 13:56:00 -
[18]
Edited by: Tuxford on 27/09/2005 13:57:00
Originally by: Khaldorn Murino Edited by: Khaldorn Murino on 27/09/2005 13:42:41 Edited by: Khaldorn Murino on 27/09/2005 13:41:10
Originally by: Tuxford
Originally by: Khaldorn Murino I never thought our speed bonus was better than the Caldari or Amarr armour/shield bonuses. I just thought it was the only area where we were better than another race.
However, is the speed bonus meant to be as effective as caldari's shields/damge and amarrians armour/damage?
Well it's really comparing apples and oranges. How many m/sec should a Rifter go compared to shield hp on a Merlin. The point is not to blindly compare how Rifter/Vigil/Probe were before the changes and how they are now but compare how Rifter is after the changes compared to Merlin/Punisher/Tristan... and so on. One might argue that Rifter needs another slot as it's speed has been reduced a bit. Also is 320m/sec and another bonus so much worse than 360m/sec at frigate level 5.
Fair enough. Tell you what, how about a quick compare of the punisher and rifter.
Punisher Slots: 4/2/4 (10) Power: 45mw CPU: 115tf Speed: 250 Cap: 340 Armour: 300 Shield: 250
Rifter
Slots: 4/2/2 (8) Power: 37mw CPU: 125tf Speed: 320 Cap: 200 Armour: 225 Shield: 250
OK. I got these stats off Item database (not in game atm) and the new changes.
So the punisher gets two extra slots, 75 extra armour, 140 extra cap, 7 extra powergrid, and 5% extra resit per level
And in return the rifter has 10 more CPU and 70 base speed higher, and a falloff bonus.
Now, is it me, or does that look a bit odd. The punisher is now an even tougher frigate, and the rifter is slots down, power down, armour down, speed down (from previous levels), and has a falloff bonus which is a bit useless to what everyone things it its design.
So 70 base speed extra is worth all the extra bonuses of the Punisher? I would not have thought so, but perhaps I am wrong?
Check out what those ships fit, Rifter with 3 280mm howitzers and a standard launcher uses 44MW Punisher with three medium beam lasers uses 48MW not to mention that Rifter is a whole lot more flexible offensively then Punisher.
Total cap means very little if you don't have the recharge rate, which you neglected to post, it's 150sec for the Rifter and 225sec for the Punisher meaning that Rifter has base average of 1.333 cap/sec and Punisher has 1.511 cap/sec. Also check out that Rifter doesn't use any cap offensively but Punisher uses quite a bit, even with the bonus.
Mass happens to be fairly important and again the Rifter comes on top so I wouldn't say that Rifter's only benefit is the 70 base speed.
Edit: The two missing slots are the real issue though, perhaps it should get an extra slot. _______________ |
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Tuxford
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Posted - 2005.09.27 14:10:00 -
[19]
Originally by: j0sephine Edited by: j0sephine on 27/09/2005 14:03:58
"Why can the Rax, Moa, and Rupture all fit thier strongest T2 medium weapons 250mmII's and 720mm II's ....."
Moa can't fit full set of strongest weapons without grid enhancing modules, even with maxed out skills -- please don't forget in addition to 4 turret slots she also has 2 missile launcher hardpoints.
Thorax can fit the 250's, Rupture i didn't check so won't comment.
I'll have a look at the Moa, last time I checked the cpu boost was a bit over the top too. I'll take a look at the numbers better when I get time Perhaps it needs a little less cpu and a little more grid. _______________ |
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Tuxford
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Posted - 2005.09.27 14:12:00 -
[20]
Originally by: Khaldorn Murino Fair enough, i wasnt trying to mislead, i just grabbed a load of numbers from the database.
Its the armour/resist vs the lower number of slots and speed of the rifter then really, if the weapons balance out (lasers have better tracking/damage, projectiles have minimal cap use and varying damage types, much longer reload tho - but that argument has been done to death all over the place)
So what were left with is, does the speed/agility of the rifter equate with the toughness of the punisher, and two slots less?
Im not having a go Luxy old chap, just trying to understand.
The speed advantage is significant but I think an extra slot is in order. It would still have one less then Punisher/Tristan/Merlin but I don't think Rifter will be underpowered. _______________ |
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Tuxford
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Posted - 2005.09.27 14:13:00 -
[21]
Originally by: Alex Harumichi Tux, if you have time could you please let me/us know if you agree or disagree (or are undecided :) that the following two points are problems?
1) The Executioner is classified as a tackler even though it has only one medslot. Do you see it used as a tackler in that configuration, and if yes how?
2) The Bellicose is much too fragile, since its EW capabilities (target painting) do not protect it, unlike the other 3 forms of EW.
1) agree, just want to sleep on how I'm going to fix that. 2) same as number two tbh, oooh I think I just came up with an idea I'll let you know later.
Now quit bothering me I'm working _______________ |
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Tuxford
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Posted - 2005.09.27 15:07:00 -
[22]
Originally by: Khaldorn Murino Oh yeah Tux, what exactly is the reasoning behind the falloff bonus for the Rifter? I mean, it doesnt seem to lend well to what the ship is used for?
Goes very well with autocannons do to their large falloff and is pretty good with artillery too. I can't give it rof bonus but perhaps double damage bonus. _______________ |
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Tuxford
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Posted - 2005.09.28 10:04:00 -
[23]
Originally by: Nyxus Ships Leftover Grid & CPU using Tech 1 Heaviest Weap
Thorax using 5 250's or 5 Nuet(same grid)- Grid Left =50 MW
- CPU = 225
Moa using 4 250's & 2 H. Launcher- Grid Left =-52.5 MW
- CPU = 305
Rupture using 4 720's & 2 H. Launcher- Grid Left =-17.5 MW
- CPU = 235
Maller using 5 Heavy Beams- Grid Left = 0 MW
- CPU = 206.25
Omen using 4 Heavy Beams- Grid Left = 12.5 MW
- CPU = 207.5
This shows a couple of things conclusively. The Moa needs more grid to be competative. With Max skills both using best weapons the Rax should not have 100 more grid than the Moa. The Rax will still be hands down the best T1 cruiser post MKII. Easier to fit, still has twice the dronebay of any other cruiser for more firepower and flexibility.
Good post but you totally ignored what kind of defenses these ships use. Medium shield booster uses 12MW, medium armor repairer uses 150MW. Thorax gets bonus to microwarpdrive which is grid heavy too but I might have overdone the grid boost. But like I said I'll look over the grids on these ships.
Oh you also forgot about the proposed launcher slot on the Omen. _______________ |
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Tuxford
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Posted - 2005.09.28 10:48:00 -
[24]
Originally by: Khaldorn Murino
Originally by: Tuxford
Good post but you totally ignored what kind of defenses these ships use.
Isnt the Rupture meant to armour tank as well?
It kind of swings both ways, personally I armor tank it as it only has 3 med. _______________ |
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Tuxford
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Posted - 2005.09.28 15:50:00 -
[25]
Originally by: Sewell Best speed = minmatar, this was basically the only thing minmatars had that the other races didn't. Sure our ships may be worthless in many aspects, but at least we were (usually) fastest. That advantage will still be there; but it will be slim at best and really: considering everything we have to suffer to get that speed advantage, I have to say that we are getting a bad deal.
Slim at best? Rifter goes 320m/sec while Merlin goes 230m/sec, Punisher goes 250m/sec. Slowest frigs for sure but hardly a slim advantage. Want to take a look at the combat frigs with mwd fitted because what you didn't say is that Minmatar frigates are also lighter than other races frigs.
Rifter 2743.75 m/sec Merlin 1669.71 m/sec Punisher 1834.41 m/sec Tristan 2066.07 m/sec
Inquisitor 1529.24 m/sec Kestrel 1709.94 m/sec Incursus 2572.27 m/sec Breacher 2177.88 m/sec
Rifter goes almost twice as fast as the slowest frigate Inquisitor. How fast should it go for it not to be a slim advantage?
Minmatar ships also have the lowest signature radius which further decreases their chances on being hit. _______________ |
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Tuxford
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Posted - 2005.09.28 16:23:00 -
[26]
Originally by: Slan Traveller Speed is about the only thing keeping the Rifter in one piece under fire.
Respectfully
Pretty much as any frigate. Do you know what the shield armor hp between the combat frigs are? Punisher has 75 more armor hitpoints than Rifter, Merlin has 50 shield hitpoints more than Rifter and Tristan has 50 armor hitpoints more than a Rifter. For comparison then the 8 ogre drones that todays Thorax can field does about 140hp/sec.
Rifter and merlin ofcourse get a 5% resistance bonus but then again Rifter is faster and has lower sig radius which makes it harder to hit. _______________ |
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Tuxford
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Posted - 2005.09.28 16:27:00 -
[27]
Originally by: Khaldorn MurinoDid you think the minmatar frigates truly were that overpowered as they were?[/quote
Not really, but they haven't been massively nerfed as you like to think. I'm just pointing out that even with a slightly reduced speed it's still has a significant speed advantage over other races.
There is a one frig that is faster than Breacher, I think it's fine the way it is, Breacher is a bit on the heavy side as all Missile frigs are. _______________ |
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Tuxford
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Posted - 2005.09.28 16:42:00 -
[28]
Originally by: Khaldorn Murino Im still interested in the design philosophy around minmatar ships if you got a spare minute to explain it?
Im sure the devs hate us moaning minnies, but we really really want to love our ships even more than we do, we just get confused about what is being tried to achieved with them
Case and point: The Cyclone, meant to be a high damage dealing beasty with 8 highslots, but its secound bonus is shield tanking. with 4 med slots. All the others have 5 in their relevant tanking positions. A speed/agility mod would have made more sense?
Anyway, perhaps its just me, I get confused rather easily these days :)
Thansk for the answers btw.
I don't think there has ever been anything posted about design lines but you can see it pretty clearly when you look at stats on ships.
Minmatar are the fastest, lowest sig rad, highest scan res lowest second highest shield and so on.
Moaning Minnies made me laugh _______________ |
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Tuxford
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Posted - 2005.09.29 09:47:00 -
[29]
Originally by: Khaldorn Murino
Exactly! I mean cmon Tux, really now mate, When you jump up ship classes, like Hak says, speed and sig rad is gonna matter only so much. On a battleship, i think we'd all rather have more tanking/firepower ability than a few more m/s.
I don't really get this comment, The speed, mass and hitpoint difference is a lot smaller with battleships than with frigates. Actually Tempest has more combined shield and armor hitpoints than Megathron, it has more shield hitpoints than Megathron has armor hitpoints.
Seems to me that you want have Minmatar speed advantage really big where it matters, on frigs and really small where it doesn't matter. _______________ |
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Tuxford
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Posted - 2005.09.29 09:54:00 -
[30]
Originally by: Nafri Yeah, but our slotlayout sucks for shieldtanking
check my lenghty post for my ideas and analyze of what some matari ships just lack
I just looked over it. It's not really only a Matari problem, overall there are less med slots than lowslots. _______________ |
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Tuxford
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Posted - 2005.09.29 10:01:00 -
[31]
Originally by: Nafri Edited by: Nafri on 29/09/2005 09:59:48 Yeah, but most races (ok unliky caldari too) dont have to tank with their midslots.
That was kind of my point, it is really a problem with all ships that shield tank. _______________ |
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Tuxford
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Posted - 2005.09.30 11:13:00 -
[32]
Griffin ECM range bonus changed to 10% ECM cap need per level. I think that it's more important that griffin can actually run these modules than to be able to use them at 80km range. _______________ |
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Tuxford
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Posted - 2005.09.30 11:21:00 -
[33]
Originally by: Zendor Tux,
Have you thought any more about the Beli
Yes, haven't quite made up my mind. The target painting bonus already makes it a pretty unique ship although I'll be the first one to admit that it is somewhat not as sexy as the other EWAR ships. _______________ |
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Tuxford
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Posted - 2005.09.30 11:38:00 -
[34]
1000th reply _______________ |
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Tuxford
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Posted - 2005.09.30 15:09:00 -
[35]
Originally by: Khaldorn Murino Well I had thought it was intended to make useless ships useful. which is a nice idea. Not to overhaul tech 1 ships. And its making some ships less useful :)
I just thought of a decent bonus for the rifter, instead of the falloff which no one seems to think will be useful (bar ole tuxy ofc)
Tracking speed bonus.
Tracking isn't really a good bonus for it. Just try the tracking guide, small guns usually track pretty well and a 25% bonus to it does nothing if it tracks well enough.
Battlcruiser mostly got Grid and CPU tuning, there is a post somewhere around here. _______________ |
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Tuxford
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Posted - 2005.09.30 15:30:00 -
[36]
Originally by: Khaldorn Murino [Not our guns :)
Yes your guns. Checked with 280mm howitzers on a ship with 35m sig radius with 1000m/sec transversal velocity and the falloff still performed better, that is curve peaked higher and you got better range. Did you check or did you just assume? _______________ |
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Tuxford
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Posted - 2005.10.01 19:14:00 -
[37]
Originally by: Nafri
Originally by: Tomias Itaraou Would it be possible to give the Incursus another lowslot to balance out the nerf it got?
Currently - the switch from a tracking bonus to falloff is a bit annonying - I much prefered the tracking bonus.
incursus is already too strong, thats why it got a slightly nerf
It's not a nerf it's a boost. _______________ |
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Tuxford
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Posted - 2005.10.01 22:08:00 -
[38]
Originally by: Meridius Tuxford. What would you describe the Omens role as?
Right now it can't do anything better then a Maller. It has a trivial drone bay and pointless missile launcher. It can't out damage or out tank a Maller.
Before missiles were balanced they were put on certain ships in small numbers because they could do something turrets could not, hit small targets with great damage. Now they can't so there is no need to put 1 of them on a pure turret ship. If the purpose is for defenders well, defenders are pretty **** poor
I've never seen an Omen in pvp before this mk2 patch and it doesn't look like i'll be seeing any after
I can see 2 possible solutions. Make sure it can outdamage a Maller or have greater EW potential through midslots.
Take the Armageddon and Apocalypse for example. They both fill in their respective roles perfectly. The geddy out damages the apoc and the apoc out tanks the geddy. All tier 1 battleships fill their roles better then there tier 2 brothers (besides the phoon). It'd be nice to see this on the cruiser level otherwise all we'll see is tier 3 cruisers flying around.
I kind of want to see the Omen as the damage dealing ship and the Maller as the tanking ship. The problem is as you have, and many more have pointed out that Maller does everything better than Omen. Well the Omen should with good skills and the extra launcher slot do more damage than Maller but it just doesn¦t go far enough.
I haven¦t been really happy with how the Omen turned out. The other tier 2 combat cruisers all have a special gimmick. Caracal has it¦s missiles, and you might not like that they have no close range missiles or launchers but it makes it pretty unique. Vexor has it¦s drones and Stabber has it¦s speed. Omen is pretty much worse than Maller in every way except speed, mass and it¦s recently acquired only launcher slot
I want to see Omen more suited for pulse lasers and damage but Maller for long range Beams. Keep in mind that I can't add a turret hp to the Omen. _______________ |
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Tuxford
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Posted - 2005.10.02 20:11:00 -
[39]
Originally by: Trelennen
Originally by: Ithildin Edit - Sneaky, sneaky, Tuxford. The Rifter has recieved a fifth high slot (3 turrets and 2 launchers) without it entered in first page. Thus: Strong tier 3s: Merlin(10), Puisher(9+1), Rifter (9), Tristan(9+1). The Merlin is ahead with 10 slots, Punisher and Tristan has 9 and an additional high slot with no hardpoint, and the Rifter is slightly behind with 9 and no utility slots.
I guess you refer here to the "Rifter MK3" added on http://evegames.hostingbig.com/eve/data/indexSissi.html Dunno if you notice that this MK3 don't even have the 2 more pg of the "Rifter MK2". How the hell are people supposed to fit those 5 highs? (without even considering that it's definitely the worst slot that could have been added... and you have less choice in fitting highs with this change => you have to fit 3+2, where you could choose between 3+1 or 2+2 with current one and MK2 one).
Sneaky little Haxzors
Giving Rifter was just a crazy idea me and Hammer got so I made a mk3 version. It's pretty hard to fit 3 280mm howitzers and two standard launchers on it with 35MW of grid but fitting Autocannons and rocket launcher is pretty easy.
Rifter should get a slot but I still haven't decided where to put it. Med slot would make it a pretty good tackler. _______________ |
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Tuxford
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Posted - 2005.10.03 09:53:00 -
[40]
Originally by: Sorja don't think it's because he hates Caldari (does he? )
Quite the opposite I'm afraid. I'm a caldari pilot, Moa is my cruiser of choice and Eagle HAC. It's only natural that I'm a bit cautious when it comes to boosting those ships. I've been hearing some good arguements for rearranging slots to give them more med slots. The same with Minmatar ships or at least make a choice, that is make them either a shield tanker or an armor tanker and make the slots suit that role instead of this whole, could armor tank or shield tank and them winding crappy at both.
There won't be any drastic overhauls on Battlcruisers or destroyers. Mostly there will be just powergrid and cpu tweaking, although I do want to make Cyclone better shield tanker. _______________ |
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Tuxford
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Posted - 2005.10.04 08:49:00 -
[41]
Originally by: Jahlina Kantar A little confused from conflicting comments regarding the stabber. Checking out the mark2 stats and what Tuxford stated would change, the stabber is not having its speed bonus removed. Some people, however, have voiced their disappointment in the stabber supposedly losing that bonus.
Is it or isnt it losing the speed?
Hope it doesnt. Its a unique vessel and definitely not overpowered. Keep in mind that not everybody is using the ship for flat out zooming combat. I've made good use of it as a fast, convenient courier and scouting ship. Actually dont load it for combat at all.
This is what I think is good about eve. There's a range of unique ships available which will appeal to any career choice. I hope they dont all get normalised and made the same, because they had to be given the same potential when you look at it from a combat angle. There are many other angles to look at ships too..
It's just the frigates. Stabber is pretty unique and fun ship and I don't want to mess with it much. _______________ |
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Tuxford
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Posted - 2005.10.05 08:39:00 -
[42]
Shield boost bonus on Eagle changed to a 5% shield resistance per level. _______________ |
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Tuxford
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Posted - 2005.10.05 16:09:00 -
[43]
Originally by: Andouus La
Originally by: Tuxford Shield boost bonus on Eagle changed to a 5% shield resistance per level.
rofl
Can I have the stats of how many players do actually in this game have eagles compared to players who have t1 ships... like the moa.
That's a drop in the sea.
At my level of skills, in a Moa I do zero dammages on a drone at optimal range (voice of your average idiot moron player... witch is 70% of all players in this game).
I've checked the dammage ratio on rail charges and from distance to dammage it's reversed so at optimal range generaly speaking calderi ships do limited dammages... (limited meaning zero from what I saw).
Can somebody explain to me why the chosen rail type charges for caldari ships do reverse dammages when used properly at optimal ranges? (from antimatter at close range to ... iron at long range)
Why do I like the caldari race...
(at least feels good to spill your guts out!!!)
Sorry I don't get what you're saying. What do you mean by reverse damages? Do you mean that Iron does less damage than antimatter, if you are then that's normal. If the long range ammo would do most damage why would you ever use close range? _______________ |
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Tuxford
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Posted - 2005.10.05 16:58:00 -
[44]
Well it works like that for all the ammo and it's the way it should be. As I said what would be the point of antimatter if it did less or same damage as iron. _______________ |
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Tuxford
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Posted - 2005.10.10 11:04:00 -
[45]
Originally by: Damien Vox
So now the Rifter is a tackler? Its the assault frigate of the Minmatar Tech 1 frigates. You just removed its speed bonus and your saying "fitting autocannons and a rocket launcher is pretty easy". Well your saying "put lesser damage mods on it and kill your target with crap armor, no ability to tank, lesser DPS guns, less speed, and less cap so even if you do find a tank set-up you can't use it anyways" to us.
When did I say Rifter was supposed to be a tackler. I said a med slot would make it a very good tackler, not that it was suppposed to be.
Originally by: Damien Vox
Did ya even think about the speed nerf when you thought about the auto's and the rocket? I mean it requires speed to get in close on a frigate. If we fight a Punisher at close ranger were dead, it tanks better, can go just as fast (with the tank on mind you) and can kill us faster then we can close, do even moderate damage, etc. I'm sorry but your taking away the major namesake ship of the Minmatar tech 1 line next to the Tempest and turning it into exactly what people joke about the Minmatar: a trash can with duct take and a stick to beat the opposing ship with.
That is simply a lie. Have you flown a Punisher. How the hell is it just as fast as a Rifter. It has a base velocity of 250m/sec, in order for it to go as fast as a Rifter it needs to put on 2 overdrive injector systems i which brings it up to 310m/sec and that is only to match it's speed with no speeds ab or mwd on. If both ships would put mwd on the Rifter is still much faster because it's lighter. _______________ |
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Tuxford
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Posted - 2005.10.10 12:56:00 -
[46]
Originally by: Ishana
Don't get hung up on details of peoples posts Tuxford.
Well if speed is a minor detail then what's the big deal?
Originally by: Ishana
Fact is that for a close range setup to work you have to get into range as fast as possible. The time it takes to get under another ships guns determines how much damage you take on the way there. Minmatar are currently faster so they take less damage coming in as a result. To compensate the other races can tank better, and thus get into range as well. (be it slower). Narrowing the gap between the races speeds, will cause minmatar to take more damage coming in while not getting more ability to tank.
A couple of good examples can be found in the game already. Autocannon vagabond/Blaster thorax/blaster megathron (and a few more but you get the idea). All these rely on the fact that they get into range before they are shoot to bits with bigger guns. Be very careful removing speed, without giving something back!
Would be relevant if Rifter wasn't the fastest combat ship around. I'm perfectly aware that Rifter isn't as fast as it used to be and you can just save your time trying to convince me that it's slower. What you should be trying to convince me is that the speed advantage it has isn't big enough. Check the number there are only a handful of ships that come close to the speed of Minmatar frigates. _______________ |
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Tuxford
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Posted - 2005.10.10 13:26:00 -
[47]
Originally by: Leshrac Shepherd When I first started using frigates, minmatar ones were the only good ones because they did not insta-die to cruise missiles. Now this issue has been solved and speed is not much of an issue as it used to be.
However, I do think there's something that is not quite right about the proposed changes. The rifter had the advantage of being so blistering fast that that speed offseted the fact that other ships like the Punisher had more powergrid, more capacitor, more hp, more dps, 2 more slots... I'm worried by the fact that after those proposed changes you can fit a punisher with 2 nanofibers in low slots and still have the same amount of slots available as a rifter, comparable speed, near infinite cap, rougly the same dps, much more hitpoints, high resitances...
Punisher won't go as fast as a rifter with two overdrives but close. Of course it's also a lot heavier so it's slower with ab and mwd. Rifter will get another slow, I'm considering low or med, definitly not high. Punisher won't have infinite cap either as it's losing it's 10% bonus to cap recharge rate for resistance bonus. Punisher also has more hitpoints but not lot.
I'm also rethinking the falloff bonus even though I still think it's a better bonus. Other bonuses that would work would be 10% damage bonus instead of the 5% or tracking bonus. Tracking is pretty useless for autocannons though. 10% bonus to damage might be to overpowered but we'll see. _______________ |
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Tuxford
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Posted - 2005.10.10 14:00:00 -
[48]
Originally by: Leshrac Shepherd But even if it loses (I think it was 5% cap recharge, not 10%) bonus, it will still have 340 base cap, when comparing to the 200 on a rifter, it feels gimped.
Actually had 10%, description was wrong, well or bonus. Also Punisher has higher recharge time than Rifter. It does have higher average recharge rate but not by as much as these numbers would suggest.
Originally by: Leshrac Shepherd
The only other ship I don't like is the bellicose, I kind of would have turned it into a missile or drone ship (seeing it has the largest drone bay of any minmatar cruiser, not much I know), it does not look like the target painter bonus will make it much more useful, when comparing it to a vigil, for example, cheaper, faster, with short lock and more difficult to track.
Not really a fan of Bellicose either. _______________ |
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Tuxford
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Posted - 2005.10.12 12:25:00 -
[49]
Originally by: Critta
So the Rifter is being taken from 450m/s w/skills down to 320m/s... Whatever happened to the Minmater relying on speed?
375m/sec actually if you have minmatar frigate level 5. Most likely 360m/sec as if you have minmatar frigate level 5 you are probably flying assault ships or interceptors to fight with. _______________ |
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Tuxford
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Posted - 2005.10.12 13:03:00 -
[50]
Originally by: Nyxus
Originally by: Meridius
Originally by: MIstress Saki would be to increase the ROF bonus, something between 10-15% per level. That should be be best way to increase the fire power over that of the maller.
Yeah just by a tad
15% per level is WAY too much. 8% or 9% per level give it more damage than a maller and it's much lower powergrid keeps it from tanking effectively.
Nyxus
9% gives you about 80% boost to dot, which is to much. I'm not touching the amount of rof bonus. _______________ |
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Tuxford
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Posted - 2005.10.12 13:48:00 -
[51]
Originally by: Summersnow
Originally by: Tuxford
Originally by: Critta
So the Rifter is being taken from 450m/s w/skills down to 320m/s... Whatever happened to the Minmater relying on speed?
375m/sec actually if you have minmatar frigate level 5. Most likely 360m/sec as if you have minmatar frigate level 5 you are probably flying assault ships or interceptors to fight with.
Ahh, so the "bone" yer tossing minmatar pilots for ruining the rifter is to drop all of the other level V requirements on our t2 ships so we can hop in them as soon as we get min frig V trained?
Your also cutting the cost and increaseing the insurance payouts on the t2 frigs?
no????
Telling the minmatar that we should all just fly t2 ships because you've got a hard on against the rifter ( podded as a newb by one I assume ) should get you FIRED and us an apology. ( especially since the minmitar t2 ships aren't the best for missions, etc due to severe cap problems )
Your complete ignorance of the roleplay aspects of this game, racial histories and design philosophies as well as the non-pvp game elements make you the wrong person for this project. ( missle launcher on an omon???? no one who's been with this game since the start and gives two seconds of thought to the racial roleplay would ever consider that acceptable )
Your desire to make this WoW in space ( oh, look lets give all the ships classes, lets make them hunters, priests, warriors, etc just like WoW ) defeats the attraction of eve, its DIFFERENT then all the run of the mill MMRPG.
Your intent of make all the ships vanilla also defeats the entire purpose of cross training racial ship skills and defeats the whole collectability aspect of the game. It was a lot of fun to crosstrain to get the specific ships people wanted from each race, now there will be no point to it. Instead it gets down to a numbers game, the old min / max powergamer which right now goes TRAIN AMARR !
I want to reply this because you obviously put considerable effort in to misinterpretating a two line sentence, so kudos to you. _______________ |
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Tuxford
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Posted - 2005.10.12 14:11:00 -
[52]
Originally by: Khaldorn Murino Guys, its a game, there's no need to get personal about it. I mean, he listenend to alot of your points, if you got stuff to get across to him, putting it like that, well, that aint gonna work and theres no need for it.
Im still gonna get a few more m/s out of Tux, as soon as I find the time to do a compare of the assualt frigates. :) And try and convince him that a 10% tracking bonus would be just the thing for the Rifter.
Tux, you know it makes sense bruv!
FYI no ship gets 10% tracking per level. _______________ |
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Tuxford
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Posted - 2005.10.12 14:21:00 -
[53]
I'll tell you what I do. I'll keep the 10% falloff bonus on the current Rifter on SiSi and put a 5% tracking bonus on Rifter MK2. Then I'll get someone to spawn it in fight club (heck I might even do it myself ) then you can give me some feedback on which one you'd like. I'm also gonna run some numbers and see whether a 10% damage bonus will make it overpowered.
I've already said that Rifter is getting either a med slot or a low. A low would allow it to reach similar speed as before. A med slot would make it a damn good ship and imo a much better ship than it was before. _______________ |
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Oveur
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Posted - 2005.10.14 10:11:00 -
[54]
New thread coming up within the next week, we're going over some stats and feedback, show some fresh stats and stuff.
BTW, is this a record? 48 pages, gj Tux _____________________________ "There's no reason to become alarmed, and we hope you'll enjoy the rest of your flight. By the way, is there anyone on board who knows how to fly a plane?" |
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Tuxford
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Posted - 2005.10.14 13:07:00 -
[55]
Originally by: Eftim S'Jet Hoping that my opinion counts as well...
Being a missile man, I really must object to the KEstrel and Caracal changes.
First of al, Kinetic damage bonus is useless. Who here uses it? Most ships' shields are weak vs EM and their armor/hulls are weak againt Explosive.
Missile Launch rate bonus was the defining trait of the Kessie. Bring it back, bring it back, don't take it away from us, cause you don't knoooow...
On the Caracal: 5 heavy missile launchers (be it standard, named or whatever) will take more than 90% percent of the powergrid. That's preposterous. How is it a missile cruiser if equiping the launchers leaves it with next to no equipment? Instead of a nerf it needs a god boost.
Please, before applying such changes, try to think on how these changes will affect their role. In these two cases, there's not much proof of it.
On the other changes, I will not state an opinion, since I've not flown many other ships (except the Merlin, who needed the boost).
Cheers!
I did a nice excel sheet the other day which displayed how long a ship would last given that it would only take one kind of damage. As I recall I checked on some Minmatar ship what damage type I would need to do to kill it fastest. That damage type was kinetic, followed closely by thermal. Of course the difference wasn't really dramatic and the amount of shield and armor you have could change this result but it doesn't change the fact that the kinetic is far from useless.
Compare Caracal with other similar ships with a full rack of their best weapon. Caracal looks pretty good now doesn't it? _______________ |
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Tuxford
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Posted - 2005.10.14 16:02:00 -
[56]
Originally by: Diana Merris
Yes, the Caracal is still sub par but not because of grid. Somewhere along the way it seems to have lost one of its slots. Add the 5th mid slot back and it'll be alot better.
Well that was kind of my point, not that Caracal is an uber ship but more that it's "suckiness" is not due to it's low grid. Incidentally adding a 5th mid slot is exactly what I did this morning
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Tuxford
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Posted - 2005.10.17 15:11:00 -
[57]
I'm just making some final changes before I post again. Congrats on pulling this thread to 50 pages guys and girls _______________ |
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Tuxford
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Posted - 2005.10.19 15:21:00 -
[58]
Originally by: keepiru Where's the new thread tux?
Been a bit busy with other stuff and having some posting problems as well. I've made some more changes to the ships. I'm not gonna tell you what it is right now though as I want to start a fresh discussion in the new thread. _______________ |
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