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Chewyguru
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Posted - 2005.09.15 19:05:00 -
[1]
This has probably been ranted at a lot but I figured I would give it a whine because its something I think many of us feel is needed.
New content is nice, but what about insurance that actually covers the average MARKET cost of tech two ships
not just the Manufacture cost. If you look at a free market system. It is obviously based on supply vs demand.
This would say that prices on tech 2 hacs and af's are going to go UP not down because as time goes on more people will be able to fly and afford said ships. yet insurance still does not cover that gap. I mean honestly would it be that hard to put in a few lines of code that make the insurance cost relative to What it pays out, and make what it pays out based on a Regional price average.
Its frustrating that a hac pilot pays just as much for his ship and a battleship pilot. yet the battleship pilot recieves full insurance payout that (almost) covers his loss. It makes no sense what so ever. Insurance in Real life doesnt cover the manufacturing cost of your brand new chevy. It covers an amount based on a yearly revised avg price aka the bluebook value. as hacs are obviously selling for 100 mill plus in some cases i would say that that would be thier "value" not some 5 million isk that is covering the cost of its BUILDING. And while i understand that some people may cry out immediatly that covering the market cost vs build cost would provide a means of exploit. ie build a new deimos for 4-8 mill in parts then just insure it and blow it up for the isk. but couldnt that be tracked rather easily. I mean wouldnt someone getting 9 kill mails a day on empty no mod ships be rather obvious and easy to find out. Also consider who is building these tech 2 ships. its not newbs or players who
have very little sp's. Its the older more advanced players who have much more to risk from trying to exploit the system. also think about it why would someone exploit and risk a ban when if the insurance doesnt cover 100 percent they can jsut sell it on market. its obvious from the price that the demand for such ships is out there.
also i believe ( i really do) that most players in this game are here for the simple fact that they love the game and are intensly interested in keeping it fun and fair for all( note macro ban ) based on that wouldnt it be nice if
ccp had a bit of basic faith in its own player base that exploiters would be reported and easily punished.
just a few ideas. imho its not fair to punish tech 2 ship pilots in this way. and I am pretty sure that Most people agree that something needs to be done. It's obviously broken and needs fixed.
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Joshua Foiritain
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Posted - 2005.09.15 19:06:00 -
[2]
t2 = luxury, current system is fine.
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[Coreli Corporation Mainframe] |
Thaylon Sen
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Posted - 2005.09.15 19:25:00 -
[3]
t2 = luxury = isk sink for the rich = good
Peace Out |
infused
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Posted - 2005.09.15 19:26:00 -
[4]
I fit all t2 on my ship so insurance does not cover my costs, not even slightly.
[EvE Domination]
YARRRRRR!!!!!!!!! |
The Cosmopolite
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Posted - 2005.09.15 19:36:00 -
[5]
It's called the death penalty.
There are people who argue that T1 battleships shouldn't be insurable for near full cost so just give thanks the game is gentle while you stick with T1 and is rightly rather harsher when you decide you can afford to fight in T2 threads.
Cosmo
Jericho Fraction |
Meehan
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Posted - 2005.09.15 19:37:00 -
[6]
 Originally by: Thaylon Sen
t2 = luxury = isk sink for the rich = good
No. T2 = luxury = shafting money from combat characters to industrial characters, no sinking of ISK whatsoever = good/bad, you decide
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Kerby Lane
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Posted - 2005.09.15 19:40:00 -
[7]
Originally by: Joshua Foiritain
t2 = luxury, current system is fine.
Agree on that
T2 insurance is fine
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Ticondrius
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Posted - 2005.09.15 19:40:00 -
[8]
* Offers to sell T2 10 foot poles to viewers of this thread. 
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Verone
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Posted - 2005.09.15 19:41:00 -
[9]
Originally by: Meehan
Originally by: Thaylon Sen
t2 = luxury = isk sink for the rich = good
No. T2 = luxury = shafting money from combat characters to industrial characters, no sinking of ISK whatsoever
The man from PIE makes a good point. Agreed.
MY NAME IS VERONE OF SNIGG, AND I'M GOING TO KILL YOU TILL YOU DIE FROM IT! |
Zaldiri
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Posted - 2005.09.15 20:30:00 -
[10]
How the hell is T2 an isk sink?
Ok its not the isk well insurence is but still...
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Admiral of King Frieza's Super Saiyan fleet.
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Cobaalt
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Posted - 2005.09.15 20:40:00 -
[11]
Relative insurance is a very good idea.
T2 ships bring to Eve some diversity in combat.
(Before them, everyone in 0.0 used to ride BS, and remember, it WAS boring.)
So I don't think the "T2 = luxury" argument is really recievable.
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Talos Darkhart
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Posted - 2005.09.15 20:40:00 -
[12]
Yep but the question that should be asked is are T2 a luxury. imho not any more it is getting to the stage where if you do not have t2 ships or mods it is very easy to get wtfpwnd from equal size or smaller ships. That and the amount of corps and alliances fielding hac and af fleets is increaseing at an alarming rate. which while not being a problem for the larger alliances with more hardcore players to defend against must be a problem for some of the smaller ones. And before anyone says yes i have been both a hardcore player who spent far to much time on this game and now more casual play due to RL and now the t2 insurance is starting to effect me as i just do not have the time to mine 6 or 7 hrs a week to get the isk needed to survive and replace t2 ships and equipment. And a divison is starting to happen like in every other persistant online game but instead of it being the ppl of different lvls it is the ppl who can spend 20hrs a week mining to get the isk to be able to surport there t2 habit.
excuse the spelling i want to get into an SA corp when i grow up
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Keta Min
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Posted - 2005.09.15 21:13:00 -
[13]
even better: make t1 insurance more like t2.
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Marcus Aurelius
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Posted - 2005.09.15 21:15:00 -
[14]
It's good, optherwise we'd all be flying tech2 in no time seeing that the payout from a ship lost would cover the new ship for the best part as we see with tech1 already.
Killing T2 ships is the last possibility of doing considerable isk damage to someone, it stays in.
Also: risk v reward. The reward is the better ship (all other things being equal), the risk is the financial loss.
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R31D
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Posted - 2005.09.15 21:20:00 -
[15]
I know about all pricing and stuff and own a load of t2 ships myself, but I think insurance should be increased a bit, not to cover market price (especially not at current market prices) but still a bit
Free bumpage for all |
Khatred
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Posted - 2005.09.15 21:40:00 -
[16]
There are 2 facts:
1. Usualy the chain goes like this:
Miner mines ice, he sells it to the POS owner for a profit. POS owner extracts moon materials and makes simple reactions wich he sells to the T2 component manufacturer for a profit. T2 component manufacturer makes the t2 components and sells them to the t2 ship bpo owner for a profit. T2 ship bpo owner sticks the bpo into the factory for 30-36 hours!! and he sells the ship for a profit.
And let's take a look at the Zealot (ignoring market trend for a bit). Payout ~18mil??? I mean the Omen is at least 3 mil so payout 15 mil? For a ship that takes THAT long to make and involves such a long chain? It's a joke!
2. Now, on the other hand maybe somebody at CCP thought "What if the Zealot BPO owner will mine his ice, deploy his own POSes, make his own components? Could be exploited!! He will blow his ships for a 12 mil comeback in isk!! THis should not happen!
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The narrow minded and selfish people posting on EO forums made me bitter |
Marcus Aurelius
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Posted - 2005.09.15 22:11:00 -
[17]
Originally by: Khatred
There are 2 facts:
1. Usualy the chain goes like this:
Miner mines ice, he sells it to the POS owner for a profit. POS owner extracts moon materials and makes simple reactions wich he sells to the T2 component manufacturer for a profit. T2 component manufacturer makes the t2 components and sells them to the t2 ship bpo owner for a profit. T2 ship bpo owner sticks the bpo into the factory for 30-36 hours!! and he sells the ship for a profit.
And let's take a look at the Zealot (ignoring market trend for a bit). Payout ~18mil??? I mean the Omen is at least 3 mil so payout 15 mil? For a ship that takes THAT long to make and involves such a long chain? It's a joke!
2. Now, on the other hand maybe somebody at CCP thought "What if the Zealot BPO owner will mine his ice, deploy his own POSes, make his own components? Could be exploited!! He will blow his ships for a 12 mil comeback in isk!! THis should not happen!
That reasoning holds no merit.
The only difference between outsourced material aquisition and mining your own stuff is the profit that is saved by not having the trades in-between. The ore and materials still cost you the same, because the value is determiend by market value, not by wether or not you actually paid for them.
Essentially, tech2 insurance has nothing to do with ship value anymore, and that is totally fine. We need something that makes these ships a real loss to bear, and thus both rare as well as an increased risk to the pilot.
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Khatred
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Posted - 2005.09.15 22:14:00 -
[18]
IMO all ships insurances should be the same, and I won't mind seeing the same kind of insurance on T1 
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The narrow minded and selfish people posting on EO forums made me bitter |
Chewyguru
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Posted - 2005.09.15 23:09:00 -
[19]
the point is is that t2 is no longer rare, its not a luxury
faction items and other named are luxury items. tech 2 is supposed to be a step up from tech one. The point is that its not just rich 30 mill sp characters flying it anymore
and its very hard for someone with limited time in game to sustain more than one or two hac losses a week. Imho this is totall BS and not the ship. tech 2 isnt meant to be some uber rare class of items , its what we all train and slave and PAY real life money to use. but either ccp needs to cap prices on tech 2 or step up with proper compensation insurance. as it is the current system rewards those with no lives or jobs that play for 18 hours a day and punishes those that only have an hour or three tops a day to pursue thier love of the game.
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Khatred
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Posted - 2005.09.15 23:31:00 -
[20]
Originally by: Chewyguru
the point is is that t2 is no longer rare, its not a luxury
faction items and other named are luxury items. tech 2 is supposed to be a step up from tech one. The point is that its not just rich 30 mill sp characters flying it anymore
and its very hard for someone with limited time in game to sustain more than one or two hac losses a week. Imho this is totall BS and not the ship. tech 2 isnt meant to be some uber rare class of items , its what we all train and slave and PAY real life money to use. but either ccp needs to cap prices on tech 2 or step up with proper compensation insurance. as it is the current system rewards those with no lives or jobs that play for 18 hours a day and punishes those that only have an hour or three tops a day to pursue thier love of the game.
I don't think a viable solution can be implemented. If minerals are quite traded on the market and so an average for minerals costs => battleship cost => insurance cost can be quite accurate, it's not the same with tech 2 comps. A lot of tech 2 comps are delivered by direct trade/escrow as part of a supplying contract so an average can be quite innacurate => tech 2 comps price can't be used as a reference for insurance cost.
But my sympathy goes only to those who fly certain Tech 2 ships, if your deimos for wich you paid 120mil goes boom, you deserve the current insurance for paying that much.
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The narrow minded and selfish people posting on EO forums made me bitter |
Chewyguru
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Posted - 2005.09.15 23:34:00 -
[21]
thats why i said base it on ship cost not component cost.
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DrunkenOne
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Posted - 2005.09.15 23:37:00 -
[22]
Originally by: Chewyguru
thats why i said base it on ship cost not component cost.
And how do you determine ship cost?
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Chewyguru
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Posted - 2005.09.15 23:40:00 -
[23]
take the cost on market of all regions add it up and divide by the number of regions. basic elementary math.
hell it doesnt even have to cover all of it but anything is beter than whats out there now
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Khatred
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Posted - 2005.09.16 00:00:00 -
[24]
Most wanted Heavy Assault Cruisers are rarely sold on market.
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The narrow minded and selfish people posting on EO forums made me bitter |
Sadist
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Posted - 2005.09.16 00:03:00 -
[25]
Originally by: Kerby Lane
Originally by: Joshua Foiritain
t2 = luxury, current system is fine.
Agree on that
T2 insurance is fine
Insurance is fine, its the ******* price that makes people tick. Either release more HAC BPO's or give out BP's via agents for a REASONABLE amount of LP. Kthx.
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VIP member of the [23] |
Khatred
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Posted - 2005.09.16 00:06:00 -
[26]
Originally by: Sadist
give out BP's via agents for a REASONABLE amount of LP. Kthx.
yeah so we can farm them . Weeeeeee \o/
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The narrow minded and selfish people posting on EO forums made me bitter |
Blacklight
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Posted - 2005.09.16 01:30:00 -
[27]
There's nothing wrong with T2 ship insurance.
The edge that T2 ships and modules can give you comes with an increased risk, which in turn rewards better play, more organisation, greater teamwork and gives a nice method of inflicting real loss and a degradation in capability if you don't have the infrastructure to support your war machine.
Sounds perfect to me.
Eve Blacklight Style
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Drutort
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Posted - 2005.09.16 02:00:00 -
[28]
TBH nobody cares about accuracy at all... what ppl would like to see is at least 50%-75% at 100% insurance... atm its a joke... and its possible to still use the regional or global avg, that would change per day (DT)/week or whatever
so what will happen when t3 comes out? will you say that t3 is luxury and then what would you call t2? and t1? 
when something becomes quite mainstream I fail to see how itÆs a luxuryà its not its been out for quite some time now (t2 that is) many people can afford any of the t2 shipsà the problem is not being able to afford them which would imply them being luxury the problem is people donÆt wish to lose them because OF broken insuranceà THAT is the general problem, it isnÆt a problem of IF you can afford ità as its obvious if you can afford a BS you can afford a HAC
You could say that insuring the t2 stuff could cost more to insure but payout is 100%, and make some kind of relation to it being some what a luxuryà but not stating because the insurance system is BROKEN for tech2 that, thatÆs the reason for calling it luxury.
There is a big difference between having to pay high % to insure the ship vs NOT having an option to pay MORE to get 100% insuranceà
the only time its really a luxury is when its far above prices, I would call faction ships and items luxury and quite rare etcà
support Idea: QuickInfo an alternative to ShowInfo
my PhotoBlog |
Taketa De
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Posted - 2005.09.16 15:21:00 -
[29]
Insurance as it is in eve right now is a charity. Any insurance company that is a business would have long gone out of business.
This charity and hand holding is ok and good for T1, that way new people and those who want less of a risk can play in a safer environment. Makes it easier for people to get into PvP and also recover from unwanted PvP.
T2 is premium. Nobody is forcing anybody to use it, but if one does I think it is good that there is the added risk and loss factor involved.
It creates a newer and harder variation on gameplay that is closer to the original vision of the game (assumption based on information I read on how insurance used to be). Death and loss should hurt and T2 is the place where that starts to be true. Good. 
Added power should be added risk, just as actions should have consequences...
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Kalixa Hihro
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Posted - 2005.09.16 16:09:00 -
[30]
Just the fact that there are nearly an equal number of people on both sides of this fence tells me the game is right where it needs to be in this respect. Balance is good, and if T2 paid out what it was worth, everyone would have them, and not be afraid to lose them.
Do you want pirate gank squads all running around in T2 gear? If they could just replace them, that's all anyone would ever use. As it is you need to be confident, know how the game works, and be careful to be in a T2 ship for very long.
Remove the risk of the lost isk = remove the challenge and will to survive. Next thing you know T2 is like a body part, everyone's got one and using it. Then everyone would be screaming we need T3, and the cycle starts over. You can't just keep making everything more and more uber and removing risk at the same time... at some point this would ruin the game. Fighting and combat in the latest technology is supposed to be expensive when you lose.
-Kalixa
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