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Ormand Antollare
The Scope Gallente Federation
0
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Posted - 2013.04.15 23:36:00 -
[1] - Quote
Hey guys. I am a relatively new player. About 3 months old. Anyways I spent freaking 40 days to get into this mackinaw. That's almost half the time I've even been around. And what do I get? 7,000 bigger ore hold. THAT'S IT. It says that the two strip miners can actually do the work of three, which it should, BUT IT DOESN'T. My yield is exactly the same as if I was using a retriever. It's literally exactly the same ship except with a bigger ore hold. How does that make it worth it? Instead of selling my load for about 4 mil it was 5.3 mil. Big whoop. I mean, it took a little bit longer to fill too.
I am extremely disappointed and confused. It seems like there should be a bigger yield bonus associated with it. The degree to which it's better is so miniscule. So what was that 40 days and 200 mil for? The retriever only takes 4 days, and like I dunno, 30 mil or so? Maybe 40 including fittings? Something is wrong. If I gotta do like 10 times the amount of training time and freaking 7 or whatever times the cost, then why only a tiny improvement? |
Buzzmong
Aliastra Gallente Federation
257
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Posted - 2013.04.15 23:53:00 -
[2] - Quote
Ormand Antollare wrote:Hey guys. I am a relatively new player. About 3 months old.
Quote: CURRENT CORPORATION The Scope [TS] from 2013.04.14 01:34 to this day PREVIOUS CORPORATION(S) Equinox Logistics [-POST] from 2013.04.14 00:13 to 2013.04.14 01:34. The Scope [TS] from 2013.04.13 23:03 to 2013.04.14 00:13. Moon 16 Mining Industries (Closed) from 2013.04.13 12:37 to 2013.04.13 23:03. The Scope [TS] from 2013.04.13 12:26 to 2013.04.13 12:37.
0/10 Troll.
I wonder if the ISD will lock this for trolling or for ranting.
Also, Mack is for ore hold, not mining amount. Skiff is for mega tank. |
Ormand Antollare
The Scope Gallente Federation
0
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Posted - 2013.04.15 23:59:00 -
[3] - Quote
What are you going on about? This is a legitimate concern... |
Drake Doe
SVER True Blood Unclaimed.
123
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Posted - 2013.04.16 00:03:00 -
[4] - Quote
You're quite literally doing it wrong |
Eram Fidard
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
70
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Posted - 2013.04.16 00:04:00 -
[5] - Quote
My only legitimate concern here is the fact that the evelopedia hasn't been updated with the mining barge changes, so I'd have to actually log in to the game to dig out the numbers to prove you wrong.
In case you haven't noticed, EVE is a game where people will pay billions for a few scant percentile. |
Zan Shiro
Alternative Enterprises
124
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Posted - 2013.04.16 00:15:00 -
[6] - Quote
Ormand Antollare wrote:. My yield is exactly the same as if I was using a retriever. It's literally exactly the same ship except with a bigger ore hold. How does that make it worth it?
if not jet can mining and solo you mine longer. Saves going back to station as much.
If on supported mining ops (orca/hauler(s) to clean out jet cans) you can run miners full bore and not have the oldl fill up to keep on mining. Bigger ore capacity is a buffer against laser shutdown due to hold being filled. Bit more space, that final cycle fills you up say 90% shoot out the jet can while still mining non stop. Vice that final cycle shutting down lasers on a full hold. Then you are jet canning and restarting lasers all the time.
Perfect example of this imo, mining rokh. Do not manage your laser cycles like a champ and you wiill fill up hold fast before you even get a chance to jet can dump.
And be happy, not too long ago exhumers were way more specialized. This here mack was a waste outside of ice fields. You wanted rocks too, you bought the hulk to do that as well.
Fit and fly your ship to get your desired resutls. |
Tsukino Stareine
EVE University Ivy League
69
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Posted - 2013.04.16 00:16:00 -
[7] - Quote
You're solo mining in a fleet mining ship
doingitwrong.com est. 1996 |
Ormand Antollare
The Scope Gallente Federation
0
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Posted - 2013.04.16 00:26:00 -
[8] - Quote
Tsukino Stareine wrote:You're solo mining in a fleet mining ship
doingitwrong.com est. 1996 What? I thought the mack was good for soloing. I thought the hulk was for fleet mining.
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Zhilia Mann
Tide Way Out Productions
1153
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Posted - 2013.04.16 00:28:00 -
[9] - Quote
Eram Fidard wrote:My only legitimate concern here is the fact that the evelopedia hasn't been updated with the mining barge changes, so I'd have to actually log in to the game to dig out the numbers to prove you wrong.
In case you haven't noticed, EVE is a game where people will pay billions for a few scant percentile.
I did the math for you. 14%, in this case. Mack mines 14% more, plus has the larger ore hold. Which, yeah, makes it a pretty good buy in the world of marginal returns. |
Ormand Antollare
The Scope Gallente Federation
0
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Posted - 2013.04.16 01:29:00 -
[10] - Quote
Zhilia Mann wrote:Eram Fidard wrote:My only legitimate concern here is the fact that the evelopedia hasn't been updated with the mining barge changes, so I'd have to actually log in to the game to dig out the numbers to prove you wrong.
In case you haven't noticed, EVE is a game where people will pay billions for a few scant percentile. I did the math for you. 14%, in this case. Mack mines 14% more, plus has the larger ore hold. Which, yeah, makes it a pretty good buy in the world of marginal returns. 14% more yield or ore hold? From what I can tell, neither. The exhumers skill bonus is only 1% per level. Meaning a max of 5% per laser. Also the hold is only 25% bigger. |
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Zhilia Mann
Tide Way Out Productions
1154
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Posted - 2013.04.16 01:39:00 -
[11] - Quote
Ormand Antollare wrote:Zhilia Mann wrote:Eram Fidard wrote:My only legitimate concern here is the fact that the evelopedia hasn't been updated with the mining barge changes, so I'd have to actually log in to the game to dig out the numbers to prove you wrong.
In case you haven't noticed, EVE is a game where people will pay billions for a few scant percentile. I did the math for you. 14%, in this case. Mack mines 14% more, plus has the larger ore hold. Which, yeah, makes it a pretty good buy in the world of marginal returns. 14% more yield or ore hold? From what I can tell, neither. The exhumers skill bonus is only 1% per level. Meaning a max of 5% per laser. Also the hold is only 25% bigger.
Yield. Max yield on a Retriever is 1170/min. Max yield on a Mackinaw is 1339/min. (1339-1170)/1170 = .1444 = ~14%.
Hint: the third low makes a difference. |
Tsukino Stareine
EVE University Ivy League
69
|
Posted - 2013.04.16 01:45:00 -
[12] - Quote
Ormand Antollare wrote:Tsukino Stareine wrote:You're solo mining in a fleet mining ship
doingitwrong.com est. 1996 What? I thought the mack was good for soloing. I thought the hulk was for fleet mining.
nope my bad, i mixed up my exhumers.
But Zhilia pointed out the differences, increased yield in the form of extra laser upgrade and exhumer bonuses plus a larger ore hold makes its worth it. |
Ormand Antollare
The Scope Gallente Federation
0
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Posted - 2013.04.16 02:47:00 -
[13] - Quote
Ok. Thanks guys. I am beginning to see how it works. The max yield is increased 14% ok. That is pretty significant. So really I just need to up my skills more to the point where the mack is more worth it. Do you guys believe in mining drones? |
Zappity
Kurved Space
24
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Posted - 2013.04.16 05:29:00 -
[14] - Quote
Ormand Antollare wrote:Do you guys believe in mining drones?
I prefer mining asteroids.
Oh, that was truly bad... Hooray, I'm l33t! -á(Kil2: "The higher their ship losses...the better they're going to be.") |
ShahFluffers
Ice Fire Warriors Late Night Alliance
2219
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Posted - 2013.04.16 07:00:00 -
[15] - Quote
Ormand Antollare wrote:It says that the two strip miners can actually do the work of three, which it should, BUT IT DOESN'T. Technically you have the yield of about 3 strip miners. Check the role bonuses of the ship.
Ormand Antollare wrote:My yield is exactly the same as if I was using a retriever. It's literally exactly the same ship except with a bigger ore hold. How does that make it worth it? Instead of selling my load for about 4 mil it was 5.3 mil. Big whoop. I mean, it took a little bit longer to fill too.
I am extremely disappointed and confused. It seems like there should be a bigger yield bonus associated with it. The degree to which it's better is so miniscule. So what was that 40 days and 200 mil for? Understand something...
Better equipment in EVE comes at the exponential cost for [more or less] linear improvements. In order words... Tech 2 ships provide an edge in a certain specialty with a few extras. They are not, and have never been, all around better ships compared to their Tech 1 variants. Even combat ships [more or less] follow this rule.
This is what allows newer players to "keep up" in a sense. Having more skills and more money that the competition does not equate to "IWIN." This is how there is balance in EVE. Change isn't bad, but it isn't always good. Sometimes, the oldest and most simple of things can be the most elegant and effective. |
Ersahi Kir
Freelance Mining Company
137
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Posted - 2013.04.16 07:13:00 -
[16] - Quote
Ormand Antollare wrote:Ok. Thanks guys. I am beginning to see how it works. The max yield is increased 14% ok. That is pretty significant. So really I just need to up my skills more to the point where the mack is more worth it. Do you guys believe in mining drones?
Training all the skills to get a decent chunk of ore takes a while, but luckily all of them except mining drones V will be useful outside of mining. I personally don't use them, but if you micro them well they can be worth it.
The jump from mining barge to exhumer tends to be marginal in return, so it depends on if you mine enough for it to be worth it. The other hidden caveat is that flying a exhumer raises your chance of getting ganked because it's more expensive and only slightly harder to kill. Before jumping into a mack realize that you're adding additional risk as well.
Because of that many miners choose to use 3 MLU retrievers instead of 2 MLU + DC macks because the yield is higher on the retriever. Without the DC in the lows the mack is a decently squishy ship, even with the ship bonuses. Admitedly the 3 MLU is squishy too, but it's also much cheaper.
Just a friendly FYI so you know what's up when you get into a exhumer. |
Jacob Holland
Weyland-Vulcan Industries
139
|
Posted - 2013.04.16 07:32:00 -
[17] - Quote
Ormand Antollare wrote:Hey guys. I am a relatively new player. About 3 months old. Anyways I spent freaking 40 days to get into this mackinaw. That's almost half the time I've even been around. And what do I get? 7,000 bigger ore hold. THAT'S IT. It says that the two strip miners can actually do the work of three, which it should, BUT IT DOESN'T. My yield is exactly the same as if I was using a retriever. The retreiver also has strip miner bonuses which mean that two strip miners do the work of three which is why you're noticing little difference immediately between the two ships. The strength of the Exhumers come in the form of small boosts and the increased slots and base stats (HP, resists...etc). It is these boosts which allow the Mackinaw to fit a significantly larger tank for example, while still allowing more resources to be dedicated to yield increases.
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Bi-Mi Lansatha
Tactical Universal Research and Development Caldari Industrialist Association
83
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Posted - 2013.04.16 11:11:00 -
[18] - Quote
Ormand Antollare wrote:Why do exhumers SUCK?? They need the money. |
Baggo Hammers
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
10
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Posted - 2013.04.16 16:23:00 -
[19] - Quote
So you trained for something you did not research and we are supposed to feel.......what? |
Haulie Berry
435
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Posted - 2013.04.16 16:50:00 -
[20] - Quote
The mackinaw has a larger ore hold, substantially more tank, and can fit an extra flight of drones.
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Azitek
Dragon Knights of EvE The Dragon Alliance
85
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Posted - 2013.04.16 17:22:00 -
[21] - Quote
ShahFluffers wrote:Ormand Antollare wrote:Ok. Thanks guys. I am beginning to see how it works. The max yield is increased 14% ok. That is pretty significant. So really I just need to up my skills more to the point where the mack is more worth it. Do you guys believe in mining drones? I personally do not think so. Mining drones may give you a little extra ore yield here or there... but combat drones can easily take care of that NPC chipping away at your shields and can also attack any gankers attacking you (note: even with max skills drones may not kill a ganker... but it will ensure you get proof that he/she is dead).
5 mining drones, 1 light damage drone, 4 light ECM drones. Combat drones won't do anything against an attacker before CONCORD comes by, but ECM drones might make a difference. 1 light combat drone is enough to take out belt rats. Use the mining drones on whatever's closest to you (to reduce travel time), use your lasers on rocks further away. When there's someone suspicious in belt, recall the mining drones and boot the ECM/damage ones.
Or, if you're in a high gank area, you have space for 4 medium ECM, 1 light ECM, and 1 light combat. |
Alara IonStorm
4902
|
Posted - 2013.04.16 17:26:00 -
[22] - Quote
What makes the Mackinaw better than the Retriever. (1.) Is the daily yield of the Mackinaw over 15 days. (2.) Is the daily yield of a Retriever over 15 days.
1. [_____][_____][_____][_____][_____][_____][_____][_____][_____][_____][_____][_____][_____][_____][_____]
2. [____][____][____][____][____][____][____][____][____][____][____][____][____][____][____]
The slashed is ISK you would never make in a Retriever period, it comes from the Mackinaw small increase in yield and the time saved making drop offs. Once the slashed ISK earned crosses above the cost of buying the Mackinaw paying off your investment that is pure surplus profit pouring in. That Mackinaw over time earns you profit the Retriever would never ever make in the same amount of man hours. |
Ormand Antollare
The Scope Gallente Federation
0
|
Posted - 2013.04.17 00:34:00 -
[23] - Quote
That's a uniquely disrespectful comment, you reprehensible psuedo-intellectual hard-ass loser. I feel some pity for you eve players whose lives are so pathetic that they feel the need to be hard on good people like me. I'm sorry your expectations in life have fallen short so many times that you take pleasure in trying to make me feel the same. I, on the other hand, have the character, good nature, and enough sheer success in life not to display this pitiful character flaw.
To those who where helpful, kudos for not being transformed into a malevolent basement-dwelling cretin.
As somebody with some REAL intelligence, (I don't just think I'm smart, I actually am) I don't entirely agree with this game mechanic. The price and sheer time invested are not reflected by the actual gain/return. If I manage to get the money to buy a Ferrari, it would not be right for me to receive only a slightly better honda civic. (With a different paint job) In this case nobody would want to pay the hundreds of thousands of dollars for only a slight upgrade. There is no actual need for the game to be this way. Games are fair because the rules are consistent from player to player.
If I spend 10 times more money and time on improving my tennis game than somebody else, for instance, Then I should expect to be about 10 times better, not 14% better. That's not how real life works; that's not how ANYTHING works. One more example. If I buy a handgun and somebody else spends 10 times more on a state-of-the-art assault rifle, I should expect to be blown the hell away in a gunfight between us! You get what you pay foe in life.
Yeah I already know what you miserable bastards are going to say: "If you don't like it, then quit." Yeah maybe I don't and maybe I will, but not necessarily because I am wrong and the game is right. But simply because I ******* disagree with the mechanics of this game. I will miss some of the lovely people on here but there are certainly many of you who I will not miss. |
Haulie Berry
447
|
Posted - 2013.04.17 01:49:00 -
[24] - Quote
Quote:As somebody with some REAL intelligence, (I don't just think I'm smart, I actually am) I don't entirely agree with this game mechanic.
If you were even fractionally as bright as you imagine yourself to be, you would probably understand a few things already, first and foremost of which is that the game design intentionally attempts to preclude more advanced ships from obsoleting less advanced ships, and that part of that balancing act is the fact that power is not a linear function of price. The consequence of this design decision is that, instead of a set of homogenized, "best" ships that everyone flies because they're clearly so much better than the alternatives, the position of "best" for any given individual varies according to their needs and situation. If Alice wants to do some AFK mining and minimize her loss potential in the case of a suicide gank, she has a good ship for that. If Bob wants to maximize his AFK mining and isn't overly concerned about his loss potential, he has a ship for that, too. This balance keeps a wide variety of ships in space, as opposed to a scenario where one simply outgrows a given ship class in a paltry 40 days and never uses it again.
The second thing is that, in a supply/demand driven market, linearly increasing yield would not actually result in linearly increasing income. If Exhumers had a yield advantage sufficient to obsolete their T1 counterparts, that supply increase would only serve to drive down mineral prices, making barges even more worthless than they would already be in an environment where they were obsoleted by exhumers (and, from experience, we already know that the low entry barrier and attention requirement of mining means that, yes, people would continue to mine, just for less money - we would most assuredly not maintain the current equilibrium prices).
The third really obvious thing that I'm sure you've realized because you're just so gosh-darn space-smart (your mom told you so, right?) is that "yield" is not the only characteristic of a mining ship. With 3 additional med-slots, a resistance bonus, better fitting, and higher base shield, armor, and hull, a Mackinaw can outtank a retriever by an extremely wide margin. Its additional drone bay also allows it to pack both a flight of mining drones and a flight of combat drones, allowing it to enjoy drone yield without having to sacrifice the ability to kill NPC rats.
Finally, I'm at a loss as to how an authentic smart-guy like yourself somehow failed to notice that the yield characteristics of a Mackinaw are very similar to those of a Retriever prior to training for and purchasing one. The stats are quite plainly available and easily compared, even without the benefit of any number of third party fitting applications. The description line stating that the ship is capable of making two strip-miners do the work of three is not unique to the Mackinaw, and is present in the Retriever description, as well. |
ShahFluffers
Ice Fire Warriors Late Night Alliance
2232
|
Posted - 2013.04.17 02:16:00 -
[25] - Quote
Ormand Antollare wrote:As somebody with some REAL intelligence, (I don't just think I'm smart, I actually am) Socratic? Is that you?
If not... stop. No, seriously... that phrase "quit while you're ahead" is very applicable here. The last guy who self righteously claimed to be "smarter than everyone" was tricked into figuratively nailing himself to his own crucifix by the unsavory elements of EVE. And the rest of the game celebrated what happened because while some people hate griefers and others hate complacency... everyone almost universally hates a superiority complex... and love it when it's taken down a few pegs.
So if someone insults you or says something that offends you... roll with it. And if you can toss back a clever, but light insult back... even better.
edit:
Ormand Antollare wrote:If I spend 10 times more money and time on improving my tennis game than somebody else, for instance, Then I should expect to be about 10 times better, not 14% better. That's not how real life works; This is not real life. This is a game. The rules of real life are not very applicable here and will always be trumped when "balance" is an issue. Change isn't bad, but it isn't always good. Sometimes, the oldest and most simple of things can be the most elegant and effective. |
Dave Stark
2630
|
Posted - 2013.04.17 06:54:00 -
[26] - Quote
Ormand Antollare wrote:Hey guys. I am a relatively new player. About 3 months old. Anyways I spent freaking 40 days to get into this mackinaw. That's almost half the time I've even been around. And what do I get? 7,000 bigger ore hold. THAT'S IT. It says that the two strip miners can actually do the work of three, which it should, BUT IT DOESN'T. My yield is exactly the same as if I was using a retriever. It's literally exactly the same ship except with a bigger ore hold. How does that make it worth it? Instead of selling my load for about 4 mil it was 5.3 mil. Big whoop. I mean, it took a little bit longer to fill too.
I am extremely disappointed and confused. It seems like there should be a bigger yield bonus associated with it. The degree to which it's better is so miniscule. So what was that 40 days and 200 mil for? The retriever only takes 4 days, and like I dunno, 30 mil or so? Maybe 40 including fittings? Something is wrong. If I gotta do like 10 times the amount of training time and freaking 7 or whatever times the cost, then why only a tiny improvement?
actually it's 7500. already off to a bad start there. also, that's not it. look at the ship bonuses, you get 5% more yield. not to mention other base stats being increased. you're right, it should, however you're wrong because it does. your yield isn't the same as the retriever, due to the ship's 5% yield bonus. yes, it is literally the same ship but with it's primary attributes increased. that's how it works going from t1 to t2. how does it make it worth it? well if it's primary stat increases that means it's better at it's intended job. congratulations you just complained about making more isk, do i need to point out how urgently you need a slap?
you're "disappointed and confused", well so is every one else in this thread. just, not for the same reasons. oh finally, you make a legitimate point; yes, mining barge yield is too high given the comparison to exhumer yield. that doesn't mean exhumers should have more yield though, barges should just have less. the 40 days and 200m was to fly a mackinaw. why only a tiny improvement? because you're picking one non primary attribute of the mackinaw and getting butthurt.
you, are the reason people think miners are idiots. i hope you get ganked. |
Taoist Dragon
Bastion of Mad Behaviour Caldari State Capturing
377
|
Posted - 2013.04.17 07:25:00 -
[27] - Quote
Exhumers suck because thats what they were designed to do. Suck rocks!
All you are whining about is how the suckage compares.
Damn! I promised myself I'd stop posting in 'I'm an idiot this XXX sucks' threads! Now you made me break a promise. You do realise this means a fairy has just karked it right! That is the Way, the Tao.
Balance is everything. |
Jacob Holland
Weyland-Vulcan Industries
139
|
Posted - 2013.04.17 07:48:00 -
[28] - Quote
Ormand Antollare wrote:If I spend 10 times more money and time on improving my tennis game than somebody else, for instance, Then I should expect to be about 10 times better, not 14% better. That's not how real life works; that's not how ANYTHING works. One more example. If I buy a handgun and somebody else spends 10 times more on a state-of-the-art assault rifle, I should expect to be blown the hell away in a gunfight between us! You get what you pay foe in life. I'm afraid that that is how everything works.
If you purchase a set of cheap but servicable golf bats with which you can acheive drives of (let's say) 150yrds, you will find that switching out to a very expensive, carbon shaft, diamond studded sticks (worth hundreds of times as much) you will, if you experience any performance increase at all, only gain a few yards on the drive - call it a dozen at most... eight percent.
If you buy an expensive, state-of-the-art, German made assault rifle I'm afraid you won't find that your expendature offers a linear performance increase over a stamped steel, Russian model available for a tiny fraction of its price.
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Egravant Alduin
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
11
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Posted - 2013.04.17 08:33:00 -
[29] - Quote
Ormand Antollare wrote:Ok. Thanks guys. I am beginning to see how it works. The max yield is increased 14% ok. That is pretty significant. So really I just need to up my skills more to the point where the mack is more worth it. Do you guys believe in mining drones?
As all people replied in here I'm also gonna say that mackinaw is better than retriever but you must max the skills for it to see good change.Also mining drones give about 1% of total ore so i never use them .I just have some lights in orbit to protect me.
Remember eve is about skills and then good ship. |
Dave Stark
2635
|
Posted - 2013.04.17 09:01:00 -
[30] - Quote
Zhilia Mann wrote:Ormand Antollare wrote:Zhilia Mann wrote:Eram Fidard wrote:My only legitimate concern here is the fact that the evelopedia hasn't been updated with the mining barge changes, so I'd have to actually log in to the game to dig out the numbers to prove you wrong.
In case you haven't noticed, EVE is a game where people will pay billions for a few scant percentile. I did the math for you. 14%, in this case. Mack mines 14% more, plus has the larger ore hold. Which, yeah, makes it a pretty good buy in the world of marginal returns. 14% more yield or ore hold? From what I can tell, neither. The exhumers skill bonus is only 1% per level. Meaning a max of 5% per laser. Also the hold is only 25% bigger. Yield. Max yield on a Retriever is 1170/min. Max yield on a Mackinaw is 1339/min. (1339-1170)/1170 = .1444 = ~14%. Hint: the third low makes a difference.
hint: it doesn't. they both have 3 lows.
the difference is 5%. you're the second person i've corrected on exhumer yield mathematics today. |
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