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drunkenmaster
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Posted - 2003.07.29 22:44:00 -
[1]
I've been testing the new gates on chaos just recently. We only managed a few tests, because by the time we'd done test 2, we'd both lost our cruisers to concord.
- Shooting NPC's will not block the gate
- Shooting the gate/sentry guns will block the gate
- Firing upon someone will block the gate
- Being fired on will not block the gate
- Returning fire will not block the gate
We havent tried damaging corp or gang members, as I couldn't move my clone to the required system, and was 20 minutes away from our testing ground.
Also untested is firing upon members of a gang, of which another member shoots you.
I would imagine stations use the same system.
Now, add into this that you can't MWD out of warp, and you have some very, very interesting situations.
Discuss.
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Nicholas Marshal
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Posted - 2003.07.29 22:48:00 -
[2]
Good work m8.
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drunkenmaster
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Posted - 2003.07.29 23:54:00 -
[3]
note that during the testing we only fired at each other, we didn't destroy ships, or pod each other. The penalties for this may be longer (I'd hope).
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Endureth
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Posted - 2003.07.30 00:07:00 -
[4]
Sounds like some good changes. I think though that firing at NPC's should lock the gate also. Overall I think this patch is going to help spice things up. Now all we need is to move the trade routes out of Concord space?
-E
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j0sephine
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Posted - 2003.07.30 00:10:00 -
[5]
Edited by: j0sephine on 30/07/2003 00:12:02
"- Returning fire will not block the gate"
Mhmm i think it'd be generally better if this one was removed; if someone thinks they're good enough to take on the attacker, they should fight on equal conditions.
Otherwise, picture the usual tactics:
* some guy at the station, other guys camping around the station in order to get him.
* the hiding guy comes out, doesn't shoot. The opponents have no choice but either webify/warp scramble him (offensive action) or shoot at him (again, offensive action) lest he simply warps away. That makes them attackers, unable to dock.
* however, the hiding guy is still free to use the good ol' "shoot some, redock to repair" tactics. because he's a 'victim' who is allowed to return fire with no consequences...
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PropanElgen
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Posted - 2003.07.30 01:03:00 -
[6]
No MWD out of warp huh?
Great, let's all just stay in our stations and train skills.
Maybe undock to take a look at the stars and the Concord vessels going about, then dock again.
Now where did that nerf-bat go?
All the angels and the puny men of god looked away...
Frightened to death by the evil that was born on that day!
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7sunami
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Posted - 2003.07.30 01:46:00 -
[7]
how about this scenario
- you attack a -5 player pirate in empire space security lvl 1. Will it lock the gate/station?
Would like to know if its based on aggression as the note indicated, or based on secuirty rating lost.
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Jax Sirius
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Posted - 2003.07.30 09:21:00 -
[8]
Well that will definatly put a stop to gate camping..
Takes badger baiting to a whole new level!
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Glowing Star
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Posted - 2003.07.30 10:40:00 -
[9]
are the no gate jump after combat changes , empire space only or everywhere? And are they specific to that gate, or any gate, can you warp to the other gates and jump etc..
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Falhofnir
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Posted - 2003.07.30 10:53:00 -
[10]
 Quote:
- Returning fire will not block the gate
great. 
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Ruffles
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Posted - 2003.07.30 12:42:00 -
[11]
This won't stop gate camping - there are plenty of other gates to leave by, or go an hide at a planet, log an alt, and come back later to leave.
Yes I agree these points have good points, but thinking that the majority of pirates camp gates, this produces two issues:
1) Fire first whilst you have the lock and lag advantage. Expect to flee to some other area in the system if the force is too big, and possibly wait there, planet hop until gates unlock, or log and alt and come back later.
2) Wait for the attacking force to fire, whilst remaining in jump-range of the gate. When they fire, jump out laughing knowing they can't follow you.
What other options are there?
This doesn't address the fact that people can target a ship moving at amazing speeds, and fire before you are out of warp? Thats quite impressive dont you think? Passive targetting not affected by a warping targets speed? Humm...
This does prevent the use of tactics like activating shield hardeners, etc. Yes we have probably flogged this point to death, still no answers back in that thread.
You still can't warp to an object/waypoint you might want to create in system, so that you don't suffer the amazing disadvantages you do currently. Alternatively allow a choice of warp-out ranges, to allow you to assess a gate/area with that wonderful 200km scanner we all have, but never have the ability to use.
I just see lots of ships warping into situations where they can't do anything to defend themselves now.
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Daan
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Posted - 2003.07.30 13:10:00 -
[12]
Edited by: Daan on 30/07/2003 13:15:44
Edited by: Daan on 30/07/2003 13:15:02
cool,
so now all pirates can do is attack miners in low sec... mega and zyd will be so easy to get now!! yeah!!!!
very good!
NOT
whats next?> place sentry guns at roidfields?
uhoh, think i gave em a new idea :/
i think i'll send a petition to change the text on the back of my eve copy...
ah nm, im wasting my time
edit:
i got it!!! change it into "Conceive a new life without boundaries, where can stealing, can stealing, mining, boredom and can stealing will lead you into even more boredom"
woohoo
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Ellyris
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Posted - 2003.07.30 14:48:00 -
[13]
A couple of things.
1. They are right to allow you to fire back. Say you have been warp scrambled and don't want to fight, but suspect you won't survive run for the gate ... of course you should fire back and still be allowed through the gate.
2. They should make pod killing as severe as it is supposed to be, and have it impose a LONG ban for that systems stations (maybe a day first time, a week 2nd time in same system and permanent after that).
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Barl Rathbone
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Posted - 2003.07.30 15:02:00 -
[14]
Quote:
This won't stop gate camping - there are plenty of other gates to leave by, or go an hide at a planet, log an alt, and come back later to leave.
.
The intention isnt to stop people running away and hiding at another planet.
Its to stop them having a risk free way of attacking players and having a guaranteed method of escape.
Yes they can still warp away but the defender has the option of warp disrupting them if they so feel.
I think it makes it much fairer and will make pirates have to think about how they ambush.
The point about being able to target ships at high speed is valid though.
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Jarjar
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Posted - 2003.07.30 15:20:00 -
[15]
Quote:
A couple of things.
1. They are right to allow you to fire back. Say you have been warp scrambled and don't want to fight, but suspect you won't survive run for the gate ... of course you should fire back and still be allowed through the gate.
[...]
While I agree with this, the problem is bounty hunters/pirate killers etc.
A group of friendly people killing pirates warps to the pirates' gate, opens fire. The pirates jumps, the "offenders" stays there waiting for the gate to allow them to jump. |
Lijah Reaper
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Posted - 2003.07.30 16:59:00 -
[16]
This method of gate blocking makes no sense outside of empire space.
In empire space, it would make sense that a gate or station would be programmed not to allow agressors pass through or dock. Outside of empire space, this does not make sense.
What would make sense everywhere is if gates merely shut down for EVERYONE for a period of time when there is PVP fighting near a gate. Of course, I don't even this should be implimented before jump drives are available to bypass stuck gates... but that is another story.
Lets see how the current gate blocking works itself out.
*note: only personal opinions are expressed here*
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drunkenmaster
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Posted - 2003.07.30 17:03:00 -
[17]
Quote:
A group of friendly people killing pirates warps to the pirates' gate, opens fire. The pirates jumps, the "offenders" stays there waiting for the gate to allow them to jump.
Maybe if 'everyone' attacked. If the attackers had any sense, they just use one attacker at a time.
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j0sephine
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Posted - 2003.07.30 17:13:00 -
[18]
"1. They are right to allow you to fire back. Say you have been warp scrambled and don't want to fight, but suspect you won't survive run for the gate ... of course you should fire back and still be allowed through the gate."
This is all fine, but far too subtle to guarantee things will always be handled 'fair' by the system. That's why imo it makes more sense to lock access on equal basis, without trying to guess who still has the right to use gates/stations and who doesn't -- leaves far less room for manipulations because you know exactly what to expect.
In the given example, the warp-scrambled victim has the choice to fire their AFBs and run away from the gate, outside the warp scrambler range. Or they can try to shoot at the scrambling ship in order to break free if they think they stand the chance. Or bring the warp stabilizer with them in the first place... am sure you can come up with more solutions on your own.
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Ywev
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Posted - 2003.07.30 22:39:00 -
[19]
I have a idea
lets just take pirating out of the game. So devs can work on something useful :0
Pod ya later..
Ywev
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Ivanav Soulsteal
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Posted - 2003.07.30 22:52:00 -
[20]
Edited by: Ivanav Soulsteal on 30/07/2003 22:53:56
Drunken, just courious. Did you test this with diffrent sec rated ppl?
For example, currently anyone can attack a -5.0 or less player without any drop of rating or responce for concord or local gov.
So is an attack on a -5.0 or less -10.0 considered an attack? (you should test this  )
Hear that?
Thats the sound of a lot of pirates realizing that they can be shot at first if they are in too high a sec area and if they return fire they can not jump. But the ppl chasing the can.
Of course this may have been a bug and not intended, it could be fixed now.... then again.
And so it begins.... |
drunkenmaster
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Posted - 2003.07.31 08:25:00 -
[21]
I tested with molly.
I shot first, and couldn't get through.
I don't think the gates are interested in sec status, only their own safety, so the agressor will always be blocked.
There are going to be some sweet standoffs on the cards. 
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XCalibre
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Posted - 2003.08.01 12:02:00 -
[22]
Ah, I can practically see it now.
The lone pirate blockading the gate in their Dominix... killing all the cruisers and frigates that pass by and dont make the gate on time exactly like the do now.
Suddenly... as if from no where comes a fleet of 5 scorpions and 5 Armaggedons a Tempest a Megathron 2 Dominix's and 4 Moa's. They move in and surround the pirate, who hasn't shot at them or anyone else in a while.
Defence Group: "Leave... now!"
Pirate: "Pi** off."
Defence Group: "Really, we mean it."
Pirate: "Yeah, prove it."
And then 2 ways it plays out...
a)Defence Group shoots... pirate jumps.
b)Defence Group doesn't shoot and the pirate laughs... and laughs... and laughs.
This makes very little difference that I can see. Just means pirate takes a little risk when they kill someone, as the defence group may be on it's way. And hunters have to sacrifice someone to kill the pirate by sending them in and waiting for them to confirm the pirate has shot them before warping. Which leaves them under a minute to trash the pirate after communications with sacrifice and warp+lock on time with a 90 second block.
I think this small difference is as intended. It certainly doesn't stop gate camping OR pirate hunting. It just adds a small element of risk to the pirate where there was none before.
Even though becoming a pirate is on my to do list I like this change. If gate camping adds to the thrill and excitement for 'normal' players trying to traverse space then surely the risk of getting killed adds to the thrill for the camping pirates.
==========================================
"Among the many mysteries of the universe the one which I ponder most often is this... Which would be worse? Peanut flavoured monkeys, or monkey flavoured peanuts?" - X
One day I might put something interesting in here. I wouldn't hold your breath. |
Bad Harlequin
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Posted - 2003.08.01 15:55:00 -
[23]
Edited by: Bad Harlequin on 01/08/2003 16:15:01
need to clean your monitors, i think.
Gatecamping pirates doing nothing (read: a bunch of people sitting at a gate. Not illegal, remember? Yet). 50 Bounty Hunters (read: unsanctioned vigilantes) warp in and attack. People at gate jump out. Attacker(s) cannot. The agressor is penalized.
Gatecamping pirates at a gate. Lone ship warps in. Pirates open fire: lone ship can return fire unless or until he makes it to the gate, and jumps. They cannot follow. The agressor is penalized.
This doesn't "ruin" anything; it just makes you use tactics that make sense. And logisitcs. Frex, 40 ships warping into a gate and opening fire doesn't make sense, but a bait-ship or 2, ganged with others at a nearby moon, warping in and taking fire and running allows the waiting ambush to jump in.
The reason this doesn't make piracy impossibly hard is players - especially from different corps - banding together to do this in an organized fashion are unlikely.
Likewise, pirates can organize differently; if one "spokesperson" is not in the fighting-group gang, he can be the first shooter without tagging the rest as an aggressor.
All of this requires everyone to pay more attention to what they're doing, what everyone else is doing, and what's going on. My sympathy for anyone too lazy to deal is nil .
oh. As for the above scenario - the standoff is solved thusly. Offer gang membership to travellers who pass through. Now the pirates can't shoot without being valid targets. Of course, he's probably at this point calling for backup...
oh for - and now we know why CONCORD and NPC pirates hang out at gates together without shooting; they don't wanna be locked out of the gates
Now instead of 40:1 muggings or fights that become races for gates, escalation and real fighting might get done. The reinforcements, frex, won't be listed as aggressors when they arrive.... adding another dimension and requiring people to think about who they're shooting =8).
Okay, does anyone remember the newly-kitted-out B5 Defense Grid episode? The faceoff with the Centauri battleship?
"Sir, they're powering up their weapons..."
"Activate defense grid!"
insert kickass CGI sequence here.
"Now they're locking us..."
"Return the favor. Lock them."
"Energy spike! They're firing!"
"Oh, hell..."
nothing like a tense standoff to liven up the evening
You are in a maze of twisty little asteroids, all alike. |
Silver Striker
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Posted - 2003.08.01 17:53:00 -
[24]
Interested to see this in practice.
The more I go through scenario's in my head the more this rule makes sense. If we just locked the gate down to all ppl firing guns then blocade runners would have to hold fire while they run the gate.
The way it is now you can have a group of ships come chargin in, holding fire until fired upon then all hell breaks loose with ships firing point blank until the runners make the gate or die trying.
Sounds like fun! Once the runners make the gate they have a moment of safety, which they should, so they don't just get ambushed immediately on the other side.
Of course Pirates could also jump to other side instead of opening fire when they see someone coming...
Changes of tactics coming, you want to move things safely in industrials better pay some ppl to guard :).
Will be a lot of fun. But we definitely won't see ppl camping a station or gate firing on noob players only to dock when someone comes out rdy to hand their asses to them :)
That's fantastic, really, but we need more COW BELL!!!! |
Emon
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Posted - 2003.08.01 21:48:00 -
[25]
The one thing i was wondering about is if somebody is locked out by a gate by initiating a agressive action. They then eject or their ship is destroyed and they are left in space with a pod.
Are they still locked out by the gate in their pod or are they able to go freely thru the gate in their pod.
Has this been tested?
____
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Nephlite
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Posted - 2003.08.02 01:58:00 -
[26]
"Ah, I can practically see it now.
The lone pirate blockading the gate in their Dominix... killing all the cruisers and frigates that pass by and dont make the gate on time exactly like the do now.
Suddenly... as if from no where comes a fleet of 5 scorpions and 5 Armaggedons a Tempest a Megathron 2 Dominix's and 4 Moa's. They move in and surround the pirate, who hasn't shot at them or anyone else in a while.
Defence Group: "Leave... now!"
Pirate: "Pi** off."
Defence Group: "Really, we mean it."
Pirate: "Yeah, prove it."
And then 2 ways it plays out...
a)Defence Group shoots... pirate jumps.
b)Defence Group doesn't shoot and the pirate laughs... and laughs... and laughs."
How about:
c) Half the force jumps and waits to greet the priate at the other end if and when he jumps to escape.
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