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Radax Glenn
Jester Syndicate
S2N Citizens
16
   |
Posted - 2013.04.23 18:08:00 -
[1] - Quote
It seems there is a difference of interpretation regarding the upcoming expansion, and how Skill Points will be handled.
I read the dev blog and interpret the new racial BC's and Destroyers one way, and other pilots seem to speculate something entirely different.
For instance, let's say:
I have Gallente Frigate V, Destroyers V, Gallente Cruiser V, and Battlecruiser V
I also have all other Racial Frigates and Cruisers up to level III, or IV
The way it is presently I can fly all BC's, but it behooves me to fly Gallente BC's to be the most efficient.
When the Odyssey expansion goes live, will pilots be able to reallocate the extra skill points added to ensure they can fly the Racial BC's and Destroyers they choose to fly, or will they just be automatically allocated?
I'm not necessarily "in love" with one way or the other, but I would like a clarification.
If this has already been addressed and answered by CCP, can you provide links?
Best case scenario: DEV answers in the thread...
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Antal Marius
No Bullshit
Jokers Wild.
29
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Posted - 2013.04.23 18:13:00 -
[2] - Quote
It's been hashed and rehashed too many times to count.
For whatever racial frig you have to 3, you get that racial destroyer to 5.
For whatever racial cruiser you have to 3, you get that racial battlecruiser to 5
The SP will be automatically put into the racial destroyers and battle cruisers, you will not be able to allocate them.
I would recommend getting Command Ships injected before the patch though. |
ShahFluffers
Ice Fire Warriors
Late Night Alliance
2287
|
Posted - 2013.04.23 18:13:00 -
[3] - Quote
Automatically allocated. The only way you will get unallocated SP is if you have the skills Destroyer and/or Battlecruiser but no racial frigate or cruiser skill respectively (which is almost impossible).
What will happen is that the generic skills will be broken up and automatically turned into the racials at the level the generic was at.
Change isn't bad, but it isn't always good. Sometimes, the oldest and most simple of things can be the most elegant and effective. |
Radax Glenn
Jester Syndicate
S2N Citizens
16
|
Posted - 2013.04.23 18:39:00 -
[4] - Quote
I suppose the more I think about it though, automatically allocating makes sense, but it only really benefits a "Jack of all Trades" toon. If you're planning/training correctly it's going to make toons look ridiculously lopsided.
If a toon is spec'd to be specialized in flying a Harbinger for instance, with all of the supporting Energy Weapon skills, he's not truly going to receive any benefit from the extra skill points he will receive to "sit" in a Drake.
I suppose this is not going to have any real detriment right away, but in the future when you look at two toons side by side, it's going to feel really off balance.
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ExAstra
Echoes of Silence
Kraken.
28
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Posted - 2013.04.23 18:44:00 -
[5] - Quote
Radax Glenn wrote:I suppose the more I think about it though, automatically allocating makes sense, but it only really benefits a "Jack of all Trades" toon. If you're planning/training correctly it's going to make toons look ridiculously lopsided.
If a toon is spec'd to be specialized in flying a Harbinger for instance, with all of the supporting Energy Weapon skills, he's not truly going to receive any benefit from the extra skill points he will receive to "sit" in a Drake.
I suppose this is not going to have any real detriment right away, but in the future when you look at two toons side by side, it's going to feel really off balance.
Not really. If someone has:
Amarr Frig V, Dessy V, Amarr Cruiser V, Battlecruiser V, and all relevant energy weapon, ewar, tank, etc. etc. skills invested
But doesn't have Caldari Cruiser III (plus relevant missiles, ewar, tank, etc.).. they weren't flying a Drake. They don't seem to be planning on flying a drake. So why should it matter that they're not getting Caldari Battlecruiser V, post patch?
Save the drones! |
Ruze
Next Stage Initiative
Trans-Stellar Industries
114
|
Posted - 2013.04.23 18:48:00 -
[6] - Quote
ExAstra wrote:Radax Glenn wrote:I suppose the more I think about it though, automatically allocating makes sense, but it only really benefits a "Jack of all Trades" toon. If you're planning/training correctly it's going to make toons look ridiculously lopsided.
If a toon is spec'd to be specialized in flying a Harbinger for instance, with all of the supporting Energy Weapon skills, he's not truly going to receive any benefit from the extra skill points he will receive to "sit" in a Drake.
I suppose this is not going to have any real detriment right away, but in the future when you look at two toons side by side, it's going to feel really off balance.
Not really. If someone has: Amarr Frig V, Dessy V, Amarr Cruiser V, Battlecruiser V, and all relevant energy weapon, ewar, tank, etc. etc. skills invested But doesn't have Caldari Cruiser III (plus relevant missiles, ewar, tank, etc.).. they weren't flying a Drake. They don't seem to be planning on flying a drake. So why should it matter that they're not getting Caldari Battlecruiser V, post patch?
More or less, you're saying "CCP, can I use the extra SP instead of getting the skills automatically? I don't really care to fly the other guys' ship."
Either way works. Like the learning skills, though ... if you let me, I'll assign it where I want to and get me at LEAST six rank V skills out of it.
If you're driven to threaten others with harm or violence because of what they do in game, you can't separate fantasy from reality.-á That 'griefer/thief' is probably more sane than you are.-á How screwed up is that? |
Radax Glenn
Jester Syndicate
S2N Citizens
16
|
Posted - 2013.04.23 19:11:00 -
[7] - Quote
Points well taken, but if you do have Racial Frigs & Cruisers trained to level III, you are going to get the Racial Destroyers and Racial Battlecruisers at V. There is a difference between dabbling in different racial frigs and cruisers with a skill level of III, and investing in the training time to get a skill to V. The difference is going to be more prevalent in the future comparing toons post and pre expansion.
I do think it would be more balanced to have the pilot choose his specific Racial BC's and Racial Desi's and then put the extra into something they will actually use.
The main reason the SP system works is because training is pretty much a level playing field.
Let's say a player stops his training on his main toon with 25M SP to train an alt on the same account. A few months later if he goes back to training a main, he can rest easy knowing that their main will pretty much be on par with other 25M SP toons out there. After the expansion though, a player with 6M SP less can have the exact same effectiveness, theoretically. This doesn't seem balanced at all. |
ExAstra
Echoes of Silence
Kraken.
28
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Posted - 2013.04.23 19:16:00 -
[8] - Quote
Radax Glenn wrote:Points well taken, but if you do have Racial Frigs & Cruisers trained to level III, you are going to get the Racial Destroyers and Racial Battlecruisers at V. There is a difference between dabbling in different racial frigs and cruisers with a skill level of III, and investing in the training time to get a skill to V. The difference is going to be more prevalent in the future comparing toons post and pre expansion.
I do think it would be more balanced to have the pilot choose his specific Racial BC's and Racial Desi's and then put the extra into something they will actually use.
Okay, but if they "dabbled" in the other cruisers, and have Battlecruisers to V, they will get the relevant Battlecruisers to V post patch. Meaning, effectively, nothing has changed but their level of SP. The battlecruiser level is what really matters here, not the frig/cruiser levels (they matter but it's only a tiny amount in comparison)
I still don't see exactly what matters, are you worried about SP levels (epeen)? Do you think it's not fair that those who have trained BC to V (and all relevant Cruisers to at least III) are "gaining" approximately 6 million SP? Even though absolutely nothing changes? And you want that excess SP as well so that you can spend it in further specialization of one race?
Or are you more worried about the fact that it will take a newer player longer to hit the same "level" of flying a Battlecruiser post patch? I'm not sure I'm reading what your issue here is exactly.
Save the drones! |
Ruze
Next Stage Initiative
Trans-Stellar Industries
114
|
Posted - 2013.04.23 19:38:00 -
[9] - Quote
ExAstra wrote:Radax Glenn wrote:Points well taken, but if you do have Racial Frigs & Cruisers trained to level III, you are going to get the Racial Destroyers and Racial Battlecruisers at V. There is a difference between dabbling in different racial frigs and cruisers with a skill level of III, and investing in the training time to get a skill to V. The difference is going to be more prevalent in the future comparing toons post and pre expansion.
I do think it would be more balanced to have the pilot choose his specific Racial BC's and Racial Desi's and then put the extra into something they will actually use. Okay, but if they "dabbled" in the other cruisers, and have Battlecruisers to V, they will get the relevant Battlecruisers to V post patch. Meaning, effectively, nothing has changed but their level of SP. The battlecruiser level is what really matters here, not the frig/cruiser levels (they matter but it's only a tiny amount in comparison) I still don't see exactly what matters, are you worried about SP levels (epeen)? Do you think it's not fair that those who have trained BC to V (and all relevant Cruisers to at least III) are "gaining" approximately 6 million SP? Even though absolutely nothing changes? And you want that excess SP as well so that you can spend it in further specialization of one race? Or are you more worried about the fact that it will take a newer player longer to hit the same "level" of flying a Battlecruiser post patch? I'm not sure I'm reading what your issue here is exactly.
I get the point here. I trained cruiser III for the other three races, not to fly their ships, but to get the most of the skill changes. One way or another, though, I'm now capable (or almost) of flying all race Battlecruisers to V. When this patch hits, nothing much will change for me. Even if I don't technically fly the other ships, I can still fly them if I want.
If you're driven to threaten others with harm or violence because of what they do in game, you can't separate fantasy from reality.-á That 'griefer/thief' is probably more sane than you are.-á How screwed up is that? |
Mole Guy
Xoth Inc
Unclaimed.
68
|
Posted - 2013.04.23 19:52:00 -
[10] - Quote
first off, cruiser skill has nothing to do with bc skill...
assuming all support skills/weapon skills are maxed, if u have gal cruiser 5 and all the others to 3, bc 5 and then jump into ANY bc, anything you do will be based off of you bc skill, not you cruiser skill.
so it doesnt behoov you to fly any race specific when it comes to bc. gal blasters will do the same as caldari blasters (plus taking bc bonuses into account).
if i have amarr cruiser 5 and i am flying a caldari bc (assuming i have caldari cruiser 3) and load missiles, my drake will hit just as hard as your drake even if you have caldari cruiser 5.
thats the odd thing about the destroyer and bc skills. i can train cruiser 3 in any race and as long as i never want to do t2 cruisers, i just have to train bc 5 for max benefit on ALL races.
i am gad they are redoing it.
i am just wondering if they will break the black ops and marauder up into racial skills as well. if so, BO 5 here i come...
that will be a nice sp jump! i wont train any more bs up to 5 and i will have all bs, black ops and marauder 5 in all races..
BOOYAH!!! |
Radax Glenn
Jester Syndicate
S2N Citizens
16
|
Posted - 2013.04.23 19:58:00 -
[11] - Quote
Hmmm,
I can certainly identify with all points of view on one side or the other, but it certainly feels like the automatic allocation method devalues the current Skill Point system.
Toons generated before the patch will have two or three useless Level V skills.
In the grander scope of things I have to say the automatic method feels very un-"sandbox" like. |
Mole Guy
Xoth Inc
Unclaimed.
68
|
Posted - 2013.04.23 20:07:00 -
[12] - Quote
well, for me, i have all cruiser 5, bc5, cs5, dessy 5, and all frig 5, so i actually spent the time to train this out.
all i get is a few points added to my total (which doesnt help anything but bragging rights.)
my 2003/2004 toons gain nothing...
if it allowed me to fly something new, then kewl. or give me those skill points back to allocate somewhere else and i would be beyond happy. as it stands, i dont need bragging rights, i want something useful.
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Radax Glenn
Jester Syndicate
S2N Citizens
16
|
Posted - 2013.04.23 20:59:00 -
[13] - Quote
Despite how it does happen with the SP, I am looking forward to the Fleet issue 'Cane.
Still I'm disappointed they've chosen the auto allocate method.  |
Danika Princip
Freelance Economics Astrological resources
Tactical Narcotics Team
1114
|
Posted - 2013.04.23 21:24:00 -
[14] - Quote
Aren't we being given several million SP if we have all the cruisers to 3 and BC to 5?
Would you really expect CCP to give you that much free SP to allocate yourself? |
Radax Glenn
Jester Syndicate
S2N Citizens
16
|
Posted - 2013.04.23 21:32:00 -
[15] - Quote
Sure.
Why not?
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Radax Glenn
Jester Syndicate
S2N Citizens
16
|
Posted - 2013.04.23 21:39:00 -
[16] - Quote
I'm a responsible skill allocator.
It's not like I'm going to go get drunk and then allocate skill points. |
Roime
Shiva Furnace
2626
|
Posted - 2013.04.23 22:32:00 -
[17] - Quote
There is no auto SP allocation or reimbursement or any such nonsense, they just give you the skill levels that you need to fly the ships that you can fly before the change.
-á- All I really wanted was to build a castle among the stars - |
Ruze
Next Stage Initiative
Trans-Stellar Industries
114
|
Posted - 2013.04.23 22:45:00 -
[18] - Quote
Roime wrote:There is no auto SP allocation or reimbursement or any such nonsense, they just give you the skill levels that you need to fly the ships that you can fly before the change.
By 'auto sp allocation', you're getting a whole new slew of sp from the skills they are adding. For those of us with BC V and Dessy V, and the related racial cruiser skill to III, that can add up to over 5 mil sp in one single release.
Some, like myself, would rather just be given the ability to fly the new ships (i.e. to III) and the extra sp back. This of course is wishful thinking.
If you're driven to threaten others with harm or violence because of what they do in game, you can't separate fantasy from reality.-á That 'griefer/thief' is probably more sane than you are.-á How screwed up is that? |
Radax Glenn
Jester Syndicate
S2N Citizens
16
|
Posted - 2013.04.23 22:46:00 -
[19] - Quote
Roime wrote:There is no auto SP allocation or reimbursement or any such nonsense, they just give you the skill levels that you need to fly the ships that you can fly before the change.
Can you please indicate your sources for this information sir?
If you are listing that there is not SP allocation, why in this dev blog, do they encourage you to increase your clone grade prior to the expansion?
EDIT: Read the very last three paragraphs. Why are the specifically listing refund of SKILL BOOK Prices, and mentioning "...then the skill points will be moved in the free allocation pool when the old skills are removed." |
Ryelek d'Entari
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
56
|
Posted - 2013.04.23 23:19:00 -
[20] - Quote
You linked the source there yourself, sparky. Roime's exactly correct: after the patch you'll have the skills to fly all the ships that you could fly before the patch, at the same level of effectiveness.
reading comprehension wrote:
As mentioned above, since we are splitting Destroyers and Battlecruisers skills in four, we need to make sure we reimburse those properly to follow the motto of GÇ£if you could fly it before, you can fly it nowGÇ¥ that we have been stating for quite a while now.
The fact that your skill point number total increases is just a side-effect (and generally a negative one, it will probably increase your clone cost).
moar reading comprehension wrote:
If, for some odd reason, you have Destroyers and/or Battlecruisers skills, but have no Racial Frigate/Cruiser 3 at all, then the skill points will be moved in the free allocation pool when the old skills are removed.
You can't actually have no racial frigate skill at all (right? maybe there's some corner case for very old characters from the dawn of time?) but you could train BC without training any cruiser skills, if you were a non-combat pilot (indy, trade, throwaway alt, whatever), in which case you'd get a pretty good chunk of unallocated skill points at a 4:1 ratio. |
Radax Glenn
Jester Syndicate
S2N Citizens
16
|
Posted - 2013.04.23 23:24:00 -
[21] - Quote
Okay...I see what you're getting at now.
I still think it would be better to choose exactly which racial BC you want to fly and I'm not convinced that a year from now when comparing toons pre/post side by side we'll be better off. |
Danika Princip
Freelance Economics Astrological resources
Tactical Narcotics Team
1114
|
Posted - 2013.04.23 23:44:00 -
[22] - Quote
Radax Glenn wrote:Okay...I see what you're getting at now.
I still think it would be better to choose exactly which racial BC you want to fly and I'm not convinced that a year from now when comparing toons pre/post side by side we'll be better off.
If we were just given all the SP in a lump instead of as the skills, then I would take the SP intended for the amarr ships I trained for but will never fly and dump it into something useful like Gallente capitals or wing command skills. I'd be given 2 million or so free skillpoints to do with as I please, and that's assuming I used the rest to get the other three races up to V. Sure, I'd be better off, but I wouldn't exactly call it fair, would you? |
Kirimeena D'Zbrkesbris
Republic Military Tax Avoiders
71
|
Posted - 2013.04.23 23:51:00 -
[23] - Quote
Ryelek d'Entari wrote:
You can't actually have no racial frigate skill at all (right? maybe there's some corner case for very old characters from the dawn of time?) but you could train BC without training any cruiser skills, if you were a non-combat pilot (indy, trade, throwaway alt, whatever), in which case you'd get a pretty good chunk of unallocated skill points at a 4:1 ratio.
Actually you can: train spaceship command to 4 and then BC skill directly without learning any racial cruisers. you will have BC skill but wont be able to fly any. Same with frigates and destroyers skills: just dont learn any racial frigate to lvl3... |
Wyack
Beurdin Corp.
1
|
Posted - 2013.05.08 01:05:00 -
[24] - Quote
Antal Marius wrote:I would recommend getting Command Ships injected before the patch though.
This !
In my case, before Odyssey, training for Absolution + Damnation = 42 days. After Odyssey : 70 days |
Zappity
Kurved Space
59
|
Posted - 2013.05.08 05:11:00 -
[25] - Quote
Have they confirmed this? Having a skill injected is (in the case of command ships) not the same as being able to fly the ship which was their commitment.
Hooray, I'm l33t! -á(Kil2: "The higher their ship losses...the better they're going to be.") |
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