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Warp Core Stabs: Pros and Cons

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Charisma Jones	Posted - 2005.09.26 17:43:00 - [1] Edited by: Charisma Jones on 26/09/2005 17:43:23 So there was enough off topic debate on the forums over the weekend on this. Thought it would be a useful exercise to have a dedicated post. Also a useful exercise to see if pilots can behave on what was clearly an emotive subject. So, WCS, an annoying fact of life, or a life saver... discuss! Here is my personal view: - Transporting things of value, why not? It lessens the risk But does not remove it altogether (Interceptor wings prove the point where multiple scrambling strength can be brought to bear easily and quickly, so the indy with WCS, or the battleship in transit for a forthcoming op, all work for me - In combat, it gimps set-up and I would prefer to use the slots for damage mods - Sniping, definitely not, I expect to be far enough away to move out of danger if required, and take the consequences if hostiles warp to a covert ops and catch me Most things smaller than a battleship, definitely a waste of slots, although I can see some arguement (based on little experience albeit) for close range ships to have a balance of scramblers and wcs if set-up allows to hold targets, move out, regroup, and come back in. Maybe there should be some kind of price to pay for using them. Off the top of my head, you can only warp 150k and then have to off-line them or something. And specially to avoid such comments as 'until you have combat experience, don't talk on the topic', or 'you need 20mill skillpoints to be qualified to comment on this post' (yes, had a few of those yesterday), Charisma is not an alt, is in-game, and the youngest of 3. All arguements welcome if they are reasoned and rationale.
Joerd Toastius	Posted - 2005.09.26 18:32:00 - [2] Make them active?
Shadrin	Posted - 2005.09.26 18:33:00 - [3] this really isn't much of an argument, it's really just personal preference. ------------------------------------ -Shadrin Nominated for "Mr. I Think I'm Way Too Tough For My Own Thorax 2005"
HippoKing	Posted - 2005.09.26 18:52:00 - [4] if ppl start flying t2 BSs into combat, i think WCS will become more common. who wants to see that much ISK down the toilet? -- This Zig. For great justice!
Charisma Jones	Posted - 2005.09.26 18:53:00 - [5] Shadrin, I agree with you. The main discussion on other threads brought in aspects on the honor of not running away and being allowed to die needlessly for the glory of ones corp. I think that these drivers are also personal preference. Anyone know if any PvP corps have banned the use of WCSs amongst members?
Grimpak	Posted - 2005.09.26 18:55:00 - [6] Originally by: HippoKing if ppl start flying t2 BSs into combat, i think WCS will become more common. who wants to see that much ISK down the toilet? ....even if I fly a 2bil pimp mobile thru PF-346, I won't fiy any WCS in it, simply because I hate WCS. Do or Die, that's my motto. ------------------- Celestial Horizon: we go zerg on you
MWEI	Posted - 2005.09.26 21:44:00 - [7] Warp scamblers have strength of 2, while stabs have only one. So a person have to use two low slot for every med slot the attacker is using. Sounds pretty balanced to me. making it active dosnt change much, its not very hard to active a module after all.
Pheragras	Posted - 2005.09.26 21:49:00 - [8] WCS are perfect just the way they are. You gimp your set-up and don't get the most out of your ship when you mount them. One of the reasons I never use them. On the other hand the griefers and pirates that are getting upset that they can't kill the players who don't want to play the way they play is BS. This is a role-playing game. If someone would rather be "safe" than effective that is their choice. And to try to nerf someone from being able to escape the fight they don't want to be in in the first place is childish. Someone wants to PvP...go find someone else who wants to play that way! A ship can be a large investment, and just as in real life there are those who want to protect their investments. Others would disagree. Fine, disagree with the way they play, but let them play their style.
Liu Kaskakka	Posted - 2005.09.26 21:54:00 - [9] Originally by: HippoKing if ppl start flying t2 BSs into combat, i think WCS will become more common. who wants to see that much ISK down the toilet? The people who think that its more kuul to die fighting than run?
Meridius	Posted - 2005.09.26 21:54:00 - [10] Originally by: MWEI Warp scamblers have strength of 2, while stabs have only one. So a person have to use two low slot for every med slot the attacker is using. Sounds pretty balanced to me. making it active dosnt change much, its not very hard to active a module after all. Warp scramblers use mid slots which on average are less common then low slots. Warp scramblers have a pathetic 7.5km range that forces the user to mount a MWD which uses lots of grid, cpu, nerfs cap and uses a lot of cap when activated. WCS have no range limiations or penalties and stack perfectly, yeah, real balanced ________________________________________________________
Salusa VC	Posted - 2005.09.27 00:55:00 - [11] Im sure its been mentioned before, but an idea I would like to see, is to make Scramblers/Disruptors chance based, same as EW. Each ship type would have an inherent "strengh" that can be increased by WCS and countered with Scramblers/Disruptors on a chance basis same as ECM etc...
Attiladehun	Posted - 2005.09.27 01:16:00 - [12] Warp core stabs are the lamest module ever. I understand fitting a wcs to save youre ship, but that it gimps a setup is bull**. A bs can easily fit a few wcs and even be an evil ganker/tanker. And btw why on earth should people fit full low wcs slot bs's, if you can't afford to loose youre ship then don't use it damnid. Imho wcs need a heavy change it ruines the game. I never use wcs (barely), but i hate wcs it's crap. I find that wcs should have 50cpu or something, i mean if you wanna fly safe it NEED to gimp a setup, 30cpu for a wcs is way too low. It shouldn't be possible to fit full wcs & guns, should be a restriction cpu wise. Anyway i'm just **ed with seeing a bs warp off
David Darkstar	Posted - 2005.09.27 02:22:00 - [13] Originally by: Pheragras If someone would rather be "safe" than effective that is their choice. And to try to nerf someone from being able to escape the fight they don't want to be in in the first place is childish. Someone wants to PvP...go find someone else who wants to play that way! agreed.
David Darkstar	Posted - 2005.09.27 02:26:00 - [14] Originally by: Attiladehun And btw why on earth should people fit full low wcs slot bs's, if you can't afford to loose youre ship then don't use it damnid. So... You mean that instead of working my ass of to get to 130 MIL for my first BS, I should do double that time to get to 260 mil before I should fly one?
Ethan Tomlinson	Posted - 2005.09.27 03:18:00 - [15] GODF YOU ***** MORONS ARE *** STUPID... ARE U REALLY HONESTLY TRYING TO RUIN THE GAME... LOOK AT ME IM A HUGE BADASS AND FLY MY SHIPP WITH NO WCS'S I DONT CARE IF I LOSE IT I CAN BUY ANOTHER WITH MY BILLIONS UPON BILLIONS OF ISK MADEN FROM MY T2 BPO CAUSE I BEEN INN GAME A LOT LONGER THOAN MOST OF THESE PUSSIES WHO USE WCS'S THEY ARN'T UNBALANCED THEY DONT NEED A STACKING PENALTY THEY TAKE A LOT OF CPU AND GIMP YOUR SETUP MOST MEGATHRON PILOTS DONT USE EM BECAUSE THEY TAKE EITHER TO MUCH CPU OR GIMP SETPS...IF THEY END UP BEING NERFED AND REQUIRE SKILLS AND HAVE STACKING PENALTIES AND THE GAME WILL GO TO HELL BECAUSE EVERY NOOB AND OLDER FLYIN THERE SHIP FOR THE FIRST TIME INTO 0.0 WILL DIE. I LIKE MY SHIPS TO LAST ME MORE THAN 30MINUTES SO PLEASE STFU ABOUT *** WARP CORE STABS ***S. NOTHING OUTRAGES ME MORE THAN PEOPLE COMPLAINING ABOUT THE ONE THING IN GAME THAT IS PERFECT.... well wcs's and shuttles complain about the other like how the eagle needs a 5th turret hardpoint or the cerberus needs to do more dmg and how the megathron needs an mwd bonus... BUT PLEASE FOR THE LOVE OF GOD DONT THINK YOUR A BADASS OR SOMETHIN CAUSE(MERIDIUS) AND SAY WCS'S SUCK I DONT USE THEM.... IT DOESN'T MEAN YOUR UBER IT MEANS YOUR AN ARROGANT WHO THINKS JUST CAUSE HE DOESN'T NEED WCS'S THEN NOBODY ELSE SHOULD EITHER.... btw flame me all u want my intention was to ** ass many of you off as possible and get my opinion out and hopefully lock the thread so ccp will realise that these things are fine... MY
Zill	Posted - 2005.09.27 03:29:00 - [16] I'm personally sick of having ganking tempests sitting 60km off a gate, tanking them, setting up a ss to warp in on them, baiting them out, warping in on them and scrambling just to have them warp out because they have stabs. For those of you who say it gimps setup, I agree, but it doesn't nearly gimp it enough. For a battleship to be able to gank a non-tanked cruiser in one volley and to be able to warp away if not more than one scrambler is on them it's crap. WCS don't need to be taken out of the game, they just need to be made into more of a travelling item and less of a fighting item. They did it with mwd, why not with wcs.
Randay	Posted - 2005.09.27 05:14:00 - [17] pros: they let you run away cons: 1.you will spend all your time running away 2.they use up valuable low slots 3.they make you look like a wuss 4.ill call you a wussy 5.ill go like this, "WUSSY!" 6.then ill work twice as hard to kill you 7.then youll log off 8.you cant play eve while logged off ------------------------------------------- "Det hõr kan betyda krig!"
Vaevectia	Posted - 2005.09.27 07:11:00 - [18] If someone wants to fit themselves SPECIFICALLY TO NOT FIGHT YOU, what's the harm? Can ships warp when there's no stabbing/scrambling? Yes. Should they be able to warp when there's equal effort in both sides? YES. Scrambling should be hard and require dedication, not something that you can fit as an afterthought.
Weirda	Posted - 2005.09.27 07:20:00 - [19] interdictors ship should change things... -- Thread Killer (attempting to train verbosity from 4 back down to 1) <END TRANSMISSION>
Randay	Posted - 2005.09.27 07:24:00 - [20] Edited by: Randay on 27/09/2005 07:25:03 Originally by: Ethan Tomlinson GODF YOU ***** MORONS ARE *** STUPID... ARE U REALLY HONESTLY TRYING TO RUIN THE GAME... LOOK AT ME IM A HUGE BADASS AND FLY MY SHIPP WITH NO WCS'S I DONT CARE IF I LOSE IT I CAN BUY ANOTHER WITH MY BILLIONS UPON BILLIONS OF ISK MADEN FROM MY T2 BPO CAUSE I BEEN INN GAME A LOT LONGER THOAN MOST OF THESE PUSSIES WHO USE WCS'S THEY ARN'T UNBALANCED THEY DONT NEED A STACKING PENALTY THEY TAKE A LOT OF CPU AND GIMP YOUR SETUP MOST MEGATHRON PILOTS DONT USE EM BECAUSE THEY TAKE EITHER TO MUCH CPU OR GIMP SETPS...IF THEY END UP BEING NERFED AND REQUIRE SKILLS AND HAVE STACKING PENALTIES AND THE GAME WILL GO TO HELL BECAUSE EVERY NOOB AND OLDER FLYIN THERE SHIP FOR THE FIRST TIME INTO 0.0 WILL DIE. I LIKE MY SHIPS TO LAST ME MORE THAN 30MINUTES SO PLEASE STFU ABOUT *** WARP CORE STABS ***S. NOTHING OUTRAGES ME MORE THAN PEOPLE COMPLAINING ABOUT THE ONE THING IN GAME THAT IS PERFECT.... well wcs's and shuttles complain about the other like how the eagle needs a 5th turret hardpoint or the cerberus needs to do more dmg and how the megathron needs an mwd bonus... BUT PLEASE FOR THE LOVE OF GOD DONT THINK YOUR A BADASS OR SOMETHIN CAUSE(MERIDIUS) AND SAY WCS'S SUCK I DONT USE THEM.... IT DOESN'T MEAN YOUR UBER IT MEANS YOUR AN ARROGANT WHO THINKS JUST CAUSE HE DOESN'T NEED WCS'S THEN NOBODY ELSE SHOULD EITHER.... btw flame me all u want my intention was to ** ass many of you off as possible and get my opinion out and hopefully lock the thread so ccp will realise that these things are fine... MY Jesus F'ing Christ anyone this unstable should be prescribed a daily dose of WCS to keep them from biting thier own tongues off. Fit 4 WCS and call me in the morning. ------------------------------------------- "Det hõr kan betyda krig!"
Demon Johnson	Posted - 2005.09.27 07:47:00 - [21] I think WCS should have some bad negativ bonus like -90% to capacitator recharge. So you fit them when you really want to run, but no hit AND run. Remember: No hands...no cookies.
madaluap	Posted - 2005.09.27 08:02:00 - [22] Edited by: madaluap on 27/09/2005 08:02:42 Please download the eve promotion vid en go to: 4:02 minutes..there you will see ccp there standing towards warpcorestabs....IT makes meh cry
Ithildin	Posted - 2005.09.27 08:39:00 - [23] Pros: They let you run away from situations you could not otherwise handle Cons: They use slightly more than avarage amount of CPU for an EWar module As you can see, the con list isn't very long. That is, it's actually kind of non-existant after you realize that every module you fit on your ship is an upgrade. Only high slot items are really necessary in order to do the job. However, they are really a comparison. A comparison to their counter-module. Their strength is more or less on a 1:1 basis, due to certain aspects. WCS: They are local, and works without having to lock. They are passive, you do not need to mind them. Scramblers: They are targeted, you need to lock on to a target before using them. They are targeted, they only work on a single target. They have a range limit, you need to be close to your target. They are not passive, you need to keep them going with cap and you need to activate them. Over all, scramblers are fine. Warp Core Stabilizers are not. The yield is too high compared to the sacrifice, and this is not even counting that scramblers have natural counters in speed, ECM and Energy Drains. The current situation is rigged for a tackler to need approximatly 4 to 5 med slots and have atleast 400 m/s base speed in order to reliably tackle a ship. At 4 med slots you aren't guaranteed to tackle, either, but the chance of escape is eliminated for those who run a "fair" amount of stabs. One ship in the entire game fit the lesser criteria - Stiletto - and no ship fit the greater criteria (the criteria needed to tackle the so called Burn Eden Raven) This is a rather abused term. Burn Eden has become famous for using a very high amount of warp core stabilizers. Whether true or not, they did the misstake of confirming (and bragging about it) it rather than denying it in the past. The reputation now sticks, in much the same way that Zombies are still infamous for the Yulai incident and mOo, although dormant/canceled, are still infamous for their (among other things) battle against the Dev Fleet of DOOOOOM. (back when battleships were uncommon, the devs set out to show mOo that their stacking-abuse was not neat - a large fleet of devs in battleships engaged mOo's cruisers, the BS were equiped with lots of non-stacking-nerfed dmg mods and tracking enhancers they claimed) -- Give Stealth Bombers an anti-battleship role! Give them torpedoes instead of cruise missiles!
Rexthor Hammerfists	Posted - 2005.09.27 09:01:00 - [24] good post ithilidn, says all.
Grimwalius d'Antan	Posted - 2005.09.27 09:12:00 - [25] The problem is that people use them in combat to save their ships if they see they can't win. WCS should be for safe travel only, not escaping a death they rightfully deserve. A WCS-fitted ship is gimped, yes, and that makes it more frustrating to see them warp off. Alot of satisfaction in PVP comes from the actual destruction, and that is lost when a weaker enemy can warp off at any time. The only way to counter it is to use more tacklers, but then it isn't as fun to kill it. Anyone can overrun a single ship of reasonable size if they are 2 in the gang.
Vathar	Posted - 2005.09.27 09:53:00 - [26] I might also add that they are useful for guerilla tactics ... Warp to enemy while in inferiority, pick up a target, blast it, and get away unless enemy fleets focuses its scramblers ... THIS makes them useful modules, even for fighters who actually are willing to engage larger fleets, but are not willing to commit suicide And, no matter what people might say, I consider this a valid combat tactic. ____________ Space Shaman Don't take life seriously, you'll not survive it anyway
Angelus X	Posted - 2005.09.27 10:17:00 - [27] Originally by: Vaevectia If someone wants to fit themselves SPECIFICALLY TO NOT FIGHT YOU, what's the harm? This is not the problem. If someone's fit an indy or BS for travelling, i.e. full stabs in lows, its perfectly understandable for it to be hard to capture. The problem is, as several people have mentioned, WCS gimp your setup, but depending on the ship and the number of low slots it often does not gimp it ENOUGH. So people can fly the 5-stabbed ravens into combat, and while they wont 1on1 most other BS, they will still be horribley overpowered to a battlecruiser sized ship or smaller, and be very difficult to capture if flown by a competent pilot. (dont get me started on the 8-stab geddons..)
Joerd Toastius	Posted - 2005.09.27 10:35:00 - [28] How about making them a) active, b) cap-eating and c) have a fairly long cycle time. This means that if you want to use them in combat you have to switch them on, they suck your cap, and you can't just toggle them on when you want to escape - you have to do it in advance. Could be further enhanced by saying that you can't enable them once you're already scrambled, and also giving them some kind of effect so others know they're on. This basically means you need to switch them on all the time or at latest as soon as you see enemies incoming, which means if you want to try your luck and run if things get hairy you're going to do so at a capacitor disadvantage
Erim Kaluk	Posted - 2005.09.27 10:51:00 - [29] If you're in a fleet battle of equal ship types and numbers. The side with the WCS fitted will usually die because their damage output isn't as high. If you want to kill something DPS is the priority. If you're just travelling and don't want the hassle of fighting, load up on the WCS's. That's the usual consensus I've come across. As for PvP corps banning them. Well, if your ship went down in a fleet battle and the kill mail showed WCS fitted. You'd just get the **** seriously ripped out of you.
Fredbob	Posted - 2005.09.27 11:05:00 - [30] I fly a stiletto loaded up with points and a MWD as it's funny seeing someone die with multiple stabs on, as they didn't expect to go home without that ship . I do think stabs should have an anti-combat penalty though personally ___________ ~Fredbob~

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