I'd go into nullsec in a heartbeat and mine the ever loving hell out of the minerals down there except it's completely unsafe for an industrialist to get resources in space which is inherently insecure.

Gankers...in the deep null sec alliance enclaves...giggle.

BTW, on a different note, that quarter trillion you invested in ice products, on the strength of just the screen shot of the Pax presentation, guess that turned out pretty well for you. Most people would suggest that a 250 billion investment in something like that would be called a crazy gamble, unworthy of a great economic mind. Unless of course, you had some way of knowing that it was a pretty safe bet.

In completely unrelated news, a dev was fired this past summer for giving away key info to null sec alliance members.

You're not making any sense.
Maybe you're just trolling, since, well, goons do that, but I seriously doubt any intelligent miner is going to go "welp, if that neut that just entered local warps in and cynos a fleet on my ass to blow me up, that's just the cost of operation."

He's going to warp to a safe pos because not getting your ship blown up is a lot more cost effective.

EDIT: Or maybe I misunderstood what you said.

Wow, you Goons scanned 60k+ moons? What a carebearish thing to do.... lol. ;)

Please do not add more slots to outposts, except perhaps for additional corporate office slots. Industry in null should take place in POSes, not in outposts. POS industry is better from a game design perspective than outpost industry. First, POSes require fuel, so increased POS use stimulates PI and ice mining; more POSes means more PvE, which means a more active economy, more ISK in player pockets, AND more targets in space to shoot at. Second, POSes are objectives to fight over. Third, a POS is a stake in the ground, and creates a sense of ownership. Fourth, POS industry encourages cooperation between corp members, and creates openings for corp thieves.

Someone please explain to me how less hauling is good for the game, long-term.

We recognize that the Outpost slot changes do not go as far as many people would have liked, but in this case we want to ensure that we don't design ourselves into a corner later by making outposts impossible to compete with. There may be room to adjust some of the numbers upwards a bit but we probably won't go as high as everyone might hope.

Once again thanks for all the feedback.

The best solutions are the ones we come up with ourselves. Let us anchor multiple stations per system, and WE will deal with production capacity in null sec, you won't need to tweak anything.

You'll always have the option of up to 72 offices in CCP-US if you fully upgrade, that should help with the overflow.

Right now the rorqual can compress ore to match the mining rate of 20 perfect ore miners in perfect boosts with 5% implants. Currently a rorqual can only compress ice to match 4 perfect ice miners. After the expansion it will only be able to match compression rates with 2 ice miners. That's a factor of TEN difference. Please reconsider the compression times for ice BPOs for rorquals

Fozzie, do you see this changing the calculus of when industry upgrades are installed in null? if the system already has access to ABC ores, there will be less reason to upgrade space. the protection offered by current grav site mechanics gives incentive to spend isk improving even good trusec. if you remove this mechanic, they will be less reason to improve space if attractive ores are already in abundance in that system.

Spoken like a true ignorant.

Let me speak it slowly for you: moving 30-ish freighters worth of ice is not a small task even if I currently have 2 freigthers and 1 JF so I am in a better situation than most..

Continuosly relocating requires standings with the appropriate stations for perfect refine and grinding standings is not an overnight task either.

Also, I have multiple rocks mining fleets and 4 Orca boosting characters, *maybe* I also mine rocks? Who knows

Feel free to find out.

It's fun to tell the employer he has to adapt so that the player can adapt to the new EvE schedule.

Low sec has extra issues with security that are not found in Null Sec. It seems that CCP generally thinks of risk as High -> Low -> Null, which makes it difficult to balance risks and rewards for common activities within Low Sec.

^^

Which is the fundamental problem. In reality lowsec is more dangerous than null or even wh under certain circumstances. The only exception to this would be the use of bubbles true. But I look at it from an economic danger not purely a ship loss danger. Economically, the risks do not equal the rewards thus it is more dangerous.

That is so laughable I don't even know where to start. Yes, bottlenecks that involve player time, skill and even luck do what you say, but artificial and static supply side bottlenecks do not.

No, its not a expression of my lack of desire for a challenge. I like challenges that make sense. This new way of setting up the ice fields is absolutely retard3d the amount of ice should NEVER be determined by player needs. It should be in an ort cloud, or if there is anomalies they should be comets. Ort clouds should be be non regenerative and be present in all systems in varying degrees based on security status. IE how long the system has been occupied and used in empire. The longer its been in use the less ice should be initially put in the cloud. The total high sec ice should be enough to take eve thru it's 20th anniversary.

Anomalies should be comets which are moving till the ice is gone. Comet mining anyone?

I think CCP has gotten stuck on the idea of being a driver of conflict. I have no problem with this on a small scale, but to radically shift a basic item like this is ABSOLUTELY the wrong direction to take the game. You want players to be active doing things like PVP, then don't make them go hunting and pecking for ice fields. Hydrogen is the most common element in the universe. How does this change make sense? Only if Stupidity is the most common element on Fozzie's team.

Can you tell I am a little upset about the repercussions of this change?

You bring in your vast experience in the field to produce that statement right?

Because my multi-years experience tells me that Orca + 10 Macks "soloers" / bots will smash the beegezus of the "1 retriever" guys.

The small miner will only find a respawn timer, not a piece of the now more valuable pie.

True.. but the 10 account miner will pull in 10 times more in that few minutes the belt is actually alive.

Yeah the joys of waiting for hours for the ice to spawn.

I can hardly contain the excitement.

People will be better off getting out of Ice mining and doing something with a steady income. Ice mining has now become the working on commission, life style, if your lucky you make the sale, if not well your living in a box.

Welcome to the new Eden booking system! Where you log in to play and... find a spawn timer. But hey, it's a FAIR spawn time for everyone, how could it be wrong?

4) (Only the first days) move the whole fleet to another system 5-6 jumps away either in slowass Orca or in 17s aligment time ships that can't even travel a medium size system in one jump.

I could be the most hard core ever, yet without an extensive playtime to cover 4 hours, I'd never get a decent belt.

A WoW player classic.

"We have loads of time in our no-life, we raid 14 hours a day to grind gear quicker thus we are better".

I won't say high sec hasn't got perks. But thats rich coming from someone who's alliance sucks at the teet of Tech.

I am curious as to who is excluded from the current non4 hour ice spawn mechanic right now?

I won't say high sec hasn't got perks. But thats rich coming from someone who's alliance sucks at the teet of Tech.

They weren't always in the south. Good work on history.

They pay a sub, like (perhaps) you do.

Then, "your own success" should not be a "boxed edition" tied to where one lives.

It's a sandbox? Then it should be "flat" and give everyone as many chances as everyone else.

buffing ganking is never useful in any MMO. I believe ganking is a necessary evil, and can never really be stopped even if you wanted to.

But making it easier is not needed, and will only result in more carebears rage quiting.

Age of Conan was a great PVP game, but they promoted ganking and made ganking and spawn camping very easy to do and impossible to avoid. After all hyboria is supposed to be a harsh dangerous play. (sound familiar) yet that game died?

EVE is a far better game than AoC ever could have been. But ganking is ganking, and carebears hate it.

Ganking needs to have a risk vs reward balance just like everything else.

NO SORRY,

Regular PVP is fighting other players who fight back.

Ganking is a form of PVP, but the lowest form, and not worthy of the PVP flag.

Don't think so much. He talks about the past and does not seem to know how many ice miners actually are around. A ton.

First of all, this change is exactly counter to the stated goal of making POS easier to manage.

Third the proposed change undoes all the work of bring up the price of minerals, by flooding the primary market with 'free' trit.

CCP has, apparently until this, been trying to make mining viable again (in any sec) outside massive operations that strip entire systems of every last drop of every ore present. To do this, they've been releasing change after change that has slowly driven up the price of mins, particularly trit. The price of mins had dropped to a level so low that it made sniping high sec belt rats look profitable compared to mining.

This undoes that by flooding the major market for trit, in particular (nullsec), with 'free' trit that is being added to the mins that most nullbears mine anyway. This is bad, as it does away with the trade dynamic between high sec and nullsec, and concentrates ever more wealth in the hands of a few players.

Says a man who is so utterly devoid of skill at PvP that he thinks ganking noobs is grounds for boasting.

No a real man eats grits and road kill.

Do you not even know what a redneck is??

I can agree that ganking is the far better way of collecting tears, but a real man does not need to make a child cry to feel better about himself.

I will say though, winning a fight you should have lost is far more rewarding then killing a noob in a mining ship.

Collecting tear is just the excuses bad PVPers use so they can stroke their e-peen through ganking.

A group of spider tanking drakes can be surprisingly hard to kill. A group of miners can be killed by a 1 week old noob, where is the challenge in that? I my book something that is so easy to do, is not worth doing, at least not in a game I pay to play.

Obviously you haven't checked out Osmon this last week.

CCP are neither changing the absolutely craptastic AFK-bot-friendly game mechanic nor introducing any incentive for PvPers to waste hours and hours playing watch on something that will never come or - if it'll come - it'll have scanned them and will bring in enough to crush them anyway.

The "static caravans / sitting ducks staying pinned down there" whole concept is wrong. Who's so stupid to accept sitting in a defensless ship if there's consistent risk being popped?

Before you say that so they should NOT be reaping the benefits for being AFK, mining is not nearly as lucrative a business as running anoms, sites etc. So do you really think that all those guys mining in null/low/WH will continue to do so with the GREATLY increased risk to their safety and LITTLE increase in reward vice moving on to the more lucrative activities

That's why almost nobody mined endless ice in sov null sec when in 2012 it was worth 1500 ISK pu, right?

[quote=EvilweaselSA][quote=Vaerah Vahrokha]

So, a relatively short event clearly dictates years of nothingness, eh? That is many years of almost nothing are clearly contradicted by your lol short event?

"Facts" is a BOLD word in your mouth.

After a lot of written pages, can we agree at least on one thing? There's no real improvements in this patch?

No, it was the last (so called "perma") Hulkageddon, not your Gallente interdiction.

Facts are YOUR enemy, just check prices of all ices, if you were saying the truth, you'd see only a Gallente ice spike, whereas all four ices spiked.

As I said, facts is a bold word in your mouth.

LOL, you talk ice mining and then pull out that chart? HAHAHAHAHAHAAAAA. HAHAHAHAHAHAHA. A two year old with a crayon could draw a better chart.

But lets say for arguements sake the chart which provides no supplimentary numbers is accurate. If we are to believe hulkageedon in infinite, then the chart needs to be read in full and that little "blip" you see is just that, a blip on what is essentially a straight line for null mining efforts. And as the chart, as you for once have rightly indicated, does not distinguish between ice and ore, there is no possible way to derive any valuable data from it to indicate ice production.

And as you can do this all day long, I suggest posting to at least one other forum perhaps Goons private forums? At least there you will find other delusionals whom will believe your claims.

No sir, I disagree. I shall deposit for others to consider the exact quote used to support his claim;

"Although high-sec suppliers of Blue Ice were largely driven out for the time being, Oxygen Isotopes were still being supplied from outside of high security space. However, traded volume of Oxygen Isotopes fell by a further 46% from October to November, probably due to reduced demand as more starbase operators lost patience with the high prices and switched to starbase types that require different fuel."

Contained within the provided quote, his quote, not mine. No unequivocal statement of increased null ice production exists. And again I point out to you that traded volumes decreased while not indicating directly, a reduction in Gal. ice mining. Certainly supportive of.

I don't give a crap if it bothers you at all. It provides no data to support your claim of higher ice production from null sec. Thus, at best it is a weak crutch for you with those who do not pay attention. At worst it completely invalidates your claims as it does not help your case.

Who is w? Speak plainly. If you mean the other poster you have been going back and forth with, I cannot substantiate anything she choses to say. Only refute what you say if you do not provide supportive data. You and your cohorts blasted me aplenty for it. Here is the ROI.

I believe its more; If a Goon says it, take it with a grain of salt. As the old proverb says.

So irrelevant that YOU keep bringing in the Gallente thing, while I directly talk about Hulkageddon 2012, the ONE Hulkageddon that altered mine volumes by more than 3-4%. The ONE event that lasted several months and impacted volume and price a lot.

The initial effect on traded volume was quite different, as Blue Ice quantity dropped by a whopping 80% from September to October while Oxygen Isotopes only fell by 22%. Although high-sec suppliers of Blue Ice were largely driven out for the time being,

A whopping 22% (the result that plays on the markets) or even a 80% (your e-peen appetizer) for *1 whole month*, *1 ice only!. Wow, that's game changing, I mean, 1 whole month over 10 years I am surprised you hadn't a sudden peen-jaculation over it!

At a 22% reduction, price quadrupled. This cost was passed on to buyers of T2 goods. T2 prices rose, T2 demand dropped among PvPers and ratters forcing POS operators to either shut down or find an alternate solutions as players were not willing to spend enough money on their goods to operate profitably.

This has been your eve economy 101 Lesson from Professor Cygnet.

As I stated above, "dramatically" is only in the local point of view. A 200% or even 300% of almost nothing is still minuscule.
...
My "claims" are about Hulkageddon, you sing the solo Gallente interdiction to pretend and create an opposite example.
I am not going to touch the interdiction as I consider it a blip not worth of long term analysis.
...
That's quite a given.

That's why almost nobody mined endless ice in sov null sec when in 2012 it was worth 1500 ISK pu, right?

Remember, "how much" does not mean "null sec before vs after" (that is from almost nothing to something, showing a big percentage increase over... nothing) but "null sec production vs global production".

If prices shot up, it's because you did not replace most of hi sec supply, else price'd stay the same. That's really basic stuff my friend. You produced *some* of the former hi sec supply but did not replace it.

I earn a living in RL by trading. I earned the majority of my quite sensible EvE wealth by dealing with ice, ice products, ice related ships and BPs. There are past ice trades and screenshots of mine transcribed around including on my website, since years ago.

Everyone but you knows this.

Delusional much? High sec ice tychoons did not get rich during the no risk days. They became rich (including me) by mining and speculating during Hulkageddons, interdictions and all the other market movers.

You are not better, you are not smarter, you are just an organization that takes their calculated risks... like many others.

Null sec will have to mine but it won't be a major activity because it' won't be worth doing it. I am all but sure that the change will make ice price rise enough to compete with the copious ISK fountain alternatives you got down there.

Why do 25M per hour in a sitting duck (also requiring millions of quite PvP useless industry SP) when you can do a multiple of that in other ways?

Sorry I have missed part of this conversation.

Could you update me with your 2 solid points and the proof behind them?

Would be true if you had supplied the missing volume (at higher cost). But no, your own provided graph shows you provided a little fraction of what was needed. It'd be also nice to see which kind of "much higher marginal cost of production", because you are talking more vague than what you claim I do.

It's a lucky streak going on since 2008. That's quite a TON of luck!

I saw it happen once, well maybe not 50 man blob, but it was 3 highly skilled carrier pilots, that were attacked by a blob fleet. They not only survived but killed half the blob before the blob gave up and left. Lions and Sheep my friends. But in real PVP it is the gankers who are the sheep. Even if they call themselves Lions while taking candy from babies in high sec.

Exactly, you're pathetic, miserable, talentless bastards, and you want other people to be miserable so you can feel better about yourselves. People suggesting you have no talent at PvP unless it's 500 to 1 makes your epeen look small, so you must mock them vigorously, because you have nothing else in your hollow, pathetic lives.

- Gallente ice interdiction: raw ice dropped (as it should) but refined ice dropped by just 22%. That "just" 22% did not come because null sec wholly supplied but from hi sec stockpiles (including Block Ukx's and mine (but I have a small one so it's irrelevant)). In fact, the lol sentence I highlighted posts ago: "However, traded volume of Oxygen Isotopes fell by a further 46% from October to November, probably due to reduced demand" is what happened after the stockpiles ended and the 22% "plus further 46%" indicate how much null sec would supply.

- Hulkageddon: numbers were even more drastic, all it takes is a pair of eyes and look at the graph.

Too bad I can post a screenshot of my account start date, moreover you can find all my posts on finance forums (and some on my finance EvE thread on MD), see when they start what they do and so on and see my analyses and several trades applied.
It's all written, all recorded and done in the *crysis* years, when markets went ranging (the hardest situation to trade), and trends deflated.

But hey, only you could imagine the crysis years are when markets trended and were easy.
As for monkeys being able to replicate anything, it has to be why from 85% to 95% of the traders (including those who do the so called "copy trades") consistently lose money on the markets. Be my guest, try yourself how much it's easy.

Here comes odesy!

1) No outposts should not have 500-700 bulding slots, if you need that many get a second (third, forth) one or place some (more) towers.

is as a good interpreation as it could be yours or mine.

I am talking of the vast HK induced decrease, you of your little null sec increase, apples and oranges but I can see you like to call the water to your mill.

Also, it DID work, because I have made 1/3 or more of my money exactly thanks to that HK.

I warmly invite you to go and post your opinion on one of the RL trading threads I post on. This is the official english one. Write at your leisure. Or keep dribbling here, showing you don't have the guts to confront with what you say in a forum where RL finance is all.
I am awaiting you there.

First of all it's nice to see something rubbing with salt on the same people who enjoy making life miserable and taking away from the others.

*shrug* if that's how you measure it, then your epeen is quite small indeed. Your feeble efforts to thwart me have, again, and again, come to naught. Your failure against me has been truly epic on occasion. I mean, seriously, you'd think flooding a system with over 500 guys looking for a single T1 frig and bubbling the **** out of both exits you'd have had at least something to show for it.

So far:

Goonswarm Killmails for Cygnet = 0.

He offered this chart above and you can see what could be a rise of up to 0.4m cubic meters from Null between March and May as overall production fell by over 3m cubic meters. You can probably draw your own conclusion about how well this supports his statements. I believe taken across the time series it is hard to conclude other than that there is at best no relationship between null production and price especially as high sec ore prices of all sorts peaked around mid June (you can check this in game) when null sec production was tailing off again.

It is worth noting the article does state that GÇ£Oxygen Isotopes where still being supplied from outside of high security spaceGÇ¥ it makes no statement about production.

Since EvilweaselSA has refused to explain I thought I would go back and make my best attempt. He made a number of points, which were I presumed to counter the argument raised by a number of people that ice will not be mined in null sec to make up the shortfall in High sec and there will be a reduction in supply leading to an increase in price and consequent decrease in demand for ice isotopes, as POSGÇÖs in particular are taken off line and the higher prices reduces demand for tech2 items.

Nice attempt, but a little late on the 'You are NO ONE!' line. You should have used it BEFORE you bragged about how you measure your epeen by your ability to deny me things, when, in all honesty, so far you have pretty much failed at that on every single occasion we've danced. This makes it look like you suddenly have no idea what you were talking about.

So, situation normal there.

You conveniently omitted the CCP economist statement about my work.

Keep raging more, it's fun to see.

You're in a 1-man corp in an alliance of a few miners/their mining alts. That screams "Hello everyone, I'm someone's industrial alt."

Still no comment on the economist appreciation I see. Dodge much, eh?

Imo it has to go to 2500 pu to really push the switch.
Even then, it'll be done by:

- bot farms

- big alliances with tons of space to accomodate such stuff and lots of newer characters that might opt for that.

Sounds a lot like economics.

It's so nice that you have finally reached the last refuge of an eve player losing a forum discussion: "You don't matter' or 'You're an alt!'.

There are a lot of movers and shakers in Eve, friend. Not all of them are Mittani or Chribba or Torn Soul, who openly broadcast their wealth, power, and influence. I like the subtle approach myself. A shipment of ammo and ships here, a passing mention there, a hilarious pile of bullshit in a chat channel on occasion, hiring some mercs to shore up a sagging corp there or to harass someone I don't like.

Whether or not 'you care' (and at least someone at goons does, either that or I have an amazing track record for being right in the path of something else you're gunning for) is immaterial to me, the player, because you have zero impact on my ability to enjoy the game.