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a possible way to deal with macro miners

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Face Lifter	Posted - 2005.09.27 03:28:00 - [1] What's the best way to deal with a macro miner? with your own macro! or in this case, CCP's CCP could implement a new subfunction for CONCORD, that would automatically check everyone who mines in 0.5+ area for longer than 10 minutes. If you mine for longer than 10 minutes in 0.5 space, a CONCORD ship spawns and initiates a dialog with you, which is basically a modal window with "yes" and "no" buttons. The questions could be anything, different stuff, similar to what GMs ask sometimes when they want to test a person for macro. The answer shouldn't always be "yes", it should be a bit random. If someone ignores the question, not answering yes or no, the window stays up and since it is a modal window, the person wouldn't be able to do anything in game until he closes the window. If the person answers "wrong", an automated message would be filed to GM, saying that so and so is a "possible" macro user. After the first question, special CONCORD ship would disappear and reappear in random time between 10-30 minutes at a belt where people are mining. Then ask another question. If the same person answers another question "wrong", then the automated message to GM would say "warning level 2". So if someone continuously answers question wrong, the warning level will be high and a GM reading messages will go check it out first. One could say that regular miners would be annoyed getting such questions every 10-30 minutes. But they could be implemented in such a way as to show how much CONCORD cares for people :-) That it adds to interactivity of NPCs with people.
Therin Dracul	Posted - 2005.09.27 04:25:00 - [2] Needs a little more thought. A. even if you randomly switched the dialogue around, it would be relatively simple to right a parser to get the deduce the answer. Unless you made it use some really circuitous and or archaic english phrasing... but there are decent, law-abiding REAL players that have english as a second language. But you have touched upon an interesting idea! MINI-GAMES!
Minthos	Posted - 2005.09.27 04:36:00 - [3] Miners are often bored. Dont harass them by asking them the same stupid questions over and over, but inspire them instead to pay attention by actually entertaining them a bit. But on the flip side, one of the great advantages of mining is that it's very peaceful and requires very little of the player, so people do it when they want to relax and maybe just chat a bit. They can mine, so they don't have to sit in station and do nothing. So maybe it should be optional. For busting macro miners, I don't know. I don't care much about it tbh, show me someone macro mining morphite and I'll come and kill their ass ingame.. Let's see how long they continue to make profit afk after getting podded a few times :)
Draaven	Posted - 2005.09.27 05:04:00 - [4] Ever see those identification spot checks on some mail clients that ask you to type in the letters on the screen, which are too distorted for a parser to read? Maybe that's the answer. But you'd need to define the rules of when to apply it, otherwise it would annoy the legitimate players to death. Maybe it's a test that should be used only when macro mining is suspected. If there is no response, then the group either gets warped out to the middle of nowhere, or they get the ol' Concordokken just for a good laugh.
Gwindor	Posted - 2005.09.27 05:27:00 - [5] Great Idea actually, but you have to make the POP up box randomly apear on screen in deferent area's to avoid macro answering, and random times and random order of questions i think its perfectly fair, and people maybe should get a standing, where they well only be check a maxumum of blah blah times a week and reduce it as they are on good behavor, but still random.
Nikolai Nuvolari	Posted - 2005.09.27 06:25:00 - [6] Originally by: Therin Dracul A. even if you randomly switched the dialogue around, it would be relatively simple to right a parser to get the deduce the answer. Instead of a "yes/no" question, change it so that it takes actual knowledge, i.e., the answer can't be deduced from the question. For example: "What year is it? (2005) (2003)" "What is the name of this game? (EVE) (Pong)" GDBT is recruiting!
Face Lifter	Posted - 2005.09.27 06:50:00 - [7] Originally by: Nikolai Nuvolari Originally by: Therin Dracul A. even if you randomly switched the dialogue around, it would be relatively simple to right a parser to get the deduce the answer. Instead of a "yes/no" question, change it so that it takes actual knowledge, i.e., the answer can't be deduced from the question. For example: "What year is it? (2005) (2003)" "What is the name of this game? (EVE) (Pong)" Actually, if I was a CCP game designer, I'd stay clear of such questions like a pleague. Those are horrible questions for the game. After a while they would create a negative mood in people who recieve them on regular basis. Those people would feel interrogated and their "EVE experienced" betrayed. It would be best to ask questions that actually promote immersiveness of EVE world. Maybe like: "Hi, Fleet Officier Heller here, just popping in to see how you are doing. My odd-ball superiors decided to create a survey of most popular asteroids among the miners. Could you tell me which asteroid you are mining right now?" With possible answers being name of asteroid being mined and a random other asteroid type. OR "Hey, Space Patrol here.. we are looking for any information on a Dread Guristas pirate named Hellrazer. Have you seen him at this belt?" Obviously, no such pirate could appear cause he doesn't exist. So the correct answer would be No
w0rmy	Posted - 2005.09.27 06:54:00 - [8] An excellent idea Not only is mining already boring... lets add boring questions to which we can give boring answers that earn us, the right to not get banned. Sounds like a winner!
Face Lifter	Posted - 2005.09.27 06:59:00 - [9] Originally by: w0rmy An excellent idea Not only is mining already boring... lets add boring questions to which we can give boring answers that earn us, the right to not get banned. Sounds like a winner! Questions don't have to be boring. Besides, this stuff is only for mining in 0.5+ space. Low sec and 0.0 mining will never be bothered
Nikolai Nuvolari	Posted - 2005.09.27 06:59:00 - [10] Originally by: Face Lifter Originally by: Nikolai Nuvolari Originally by: Therin Dracul A. even if you randomly switched the dialogue around, it would be relatively simple to right a parser to get the deduce the answer. Instead of a "yes/no" question, change it so that it takes actual knowledge, i.e., the answer can't be deduced from the question. For example: "What year is it? (2005) (2003)" "What is the name of this game? (EVE) (Pong)" Actually, if I was a CCP game designer, I'd stay clear of such questions like a pleague. Those are horrible questions for the game. After a while they would create a negative mood in people who recieve them on regular basis. Those people would feel interrogated and their "EVE experienced" betrayed. It would be best to ask questions that actually promote immersiveness of EVE world. Maybe like: "Hi, Fleet Officier Heller here, just popping in to see how you are doing. My odd-ball superiors decided to create a survey of most popular asteroids among the miners. Could you tell me which asteroid you are mining right now?" With possible answers being name of asteroid being mined and a random other asteroid type. OR "Hey, Space Patrol here.. we are looking for any information on a Dread Guristas pirate named Hellrazer. Have you seen him at this belt?" Obviously, no such pirate could appear cause he doesn't exist. So the correct answer would be No I'm not promoting this idea, really, I'm just saying that IF you're going to ask questions, they shouldn't be "yes/no" questions. I like your 'Roid Survey idea, btw :) GDBT is recruiting!
Discorporation	Posted - 2005.09.27 07:01:00 - [11] Originally by: w0rmy An excellent idea Not only is mining already boring... lets add boring questions to which we can give boring answers that earn us, the right to not get banned. Sounds like a winner! not only that, let's apply it to everyone in a 0.5< system every 10 minutes! [23]
Dtech	Posted - 2005.09.27 07:24:00 - [12] How about a NO I don't need to be bothered by some stupid pop-up signs while mining. Why the need to screw over every miner in the game cause a few don't play by the rules? I don't like macros, but I could care less about them. If you see someone who you think is using a marco, report him. No need to have the game do it.
Face Lifter	Posted - 2005.09.27 07:38:00 - [13] Well, I guess if people see that only bad things can come from this, fine. I give up Personally I'm of opinion that if the design is done right, it will only add to the game, not take away from it. But people are usually much more pessimistic about such things.
Sperril	Posted - 2005.09.27 08:18:00 - [14] I agree with the concerns of the miners. I wouldn't want to see any solution implemented in a way that hurts them at all. My question is: Why does it take so long for macro-miners to get caught and banned? I've petitioned the same groups of macroers over and over, and I continue to recieve responses that action will be taken, but nothing ever happens to them. (On the bright side, I've made quite a killing on stealing from their jet-cans.) The huge numbers of macro-miners, (usually consisting of at least 2/3 of the miners in the areas I frequent,) are starting to make we wonder if there is any point in reporting them anymore. A friend of mine and I have given up mining in our area altogether because of the futility in trying to keep up with them. The good roids are emptied as fast as they respawn. Now, we just go from jetcan to jetcan and empty them out. (Which I admit is a much more efficient than using actual mining lasers to collect ore.) It's even gotten to the point where we create instas so we can warp straight to the jetcans when the haulers come to empty them. (We call em' jump-and-grab operations.)
Miri Tirzan	Posted - 2005.09.27 10:00:00 - [15] I gotta say no to this. I dont mine that often any more but I dont listen on the local channel, I chat constantly on the Caldari channel. Mining is boring enough without having to take a test every 20 minutes. svetlana - "whining gets you stuff. that is why humans got to the top of the food chain and all the other animals got nerfed."
w0rmy	Posted - 2005.09.27 10:11:00 - [16] Originally by: Face Lifter Answering it wrong won't get you banned, it'll simply alert GM that he should check you out. Which he may not, if he's busy. So what youre saying is, the hundreds apon hundreds of petitions arent enough to alert a GM, we need more code to do it?
Face Lifter	Posted - 2005.09.27 11:16:00 - [17] Originally by: w0rmy Originally by: Face Lifter Answering it wrong won't get you banned, it'll simply alert GM that he should check you out. Which he may not, if he's busy. So what youre saying is, the hundreds apon hundreds of petitions arent enough to alert a GM, we need more code to do it? Many macros wouldn't be able to answer the question, if window opens in different positions. And as long as the window is up, all their operations are halted But whatever, I don't support this idea anymore
Fester Addams	Posted - 2005.09.27 11:26:00 - [18] Silly Idea in my opinion, I dont mine often... actually havent mined in over 6 months but I do know its anoying enough without the game spamming you with popup windows. Also what would happen if the Concord bot starts asking a player a set of questions and some PC by coincidence initiates his attack that very moment, the miner would have gotten away if it wasnt for the popups spamming him, would he then be elegiable for a reinbursement? CCP actually do a fair job at routing out macrominers and the best assistance we the comunity can give them is to report it every time we run into suspected macro users. Just make sure the player is a macro user before you send in the report, just like always when utilising a snitch system there are alot of false reports (people reporting people they dont like and so on) and we really dont need people reporting every miner they see that is taking part in a corp mining OP. ------------ 20. Is it true all pvpers have carebear alts? Yes, of course. I have so much fun looking up who's alt is who's kieron Community Manager, EVE Online
s4mp3r0r	Posted - 2005.09.27 11:31:00 - [19] CCP doesnt care about macro miners perse because theyre paying for their accounts. They only care because their customers complain about it. As for the questions, i¦d rather not be interrogated every 10 minutes. As for coding this to give gm¦s extra work, i say, they already have their hands full, most these guys don¦t get paid to do the work they do, so.... Lay of them, response time on petitions is already not great. Bad bad bad idea imho. Proud CEO of the I have a mirel yirrin corpse and do freaky things to it club. Convo me ingame for details on how to join, and a free " I ♥ mirel yirrin Ö" Bumpersticker!!
CelticKnight	Posted - 2005.09.27 11:40:00 - [20] id just find it funny having a GM rock up in a jove ship to question a couple of dudes + check if thier macroing.. would give us bored miners something to laugh and joke about at that local bar in space :) Cmon give us some entertainment... mate and i have gotten so bored we got to just mobbing each other with drones while the mining lasers did thier work... introduce in game cards/snake/poker (poker with isk!! must be over 18 to play :)) Originally by: Oveur I can make 100 Trillion ISK with a single click.
FireFoxx80	Posted - 2005.09.27 12:32:00 - [21] Nah, I don't like this idea. I routinely afk mine in an indy, whilst I go to work or whatever. I dont want to be banned just because I want to make a pityful amount of ISK over 8 hours. 23? # Missile Tool # ex: P-TMC : USAC
Summersnow	Posted - 2005.09.27 12:32:00 - [22] Originally by: Face Lifter Besides, this stuff is only for mining in 0.5+ space. Low sec and 0.0 mining will never be bothered Answering it wrong won't get you banned, it'll simply alert GM that he should check you out. Which he may not, if he's busy. GMs don't have to act like total asses about it either, they could make the experience interesting, show in nice ship, have a short role playing chat, or just a single message exchange. Why only HARASS players in high security space? Why DISCRIMINATE against only those people and for that matter why should only miners be bothered? I think gatecamping 0.1 - 0.4 gates to be a far bigger problem to eve then macro miners, lets toss in some random questions to harass those guys too :-) "Hello, have you pod'd a newbi today?", "What kind of ship were they flying", "do you like my cat?" What about all those production guys? They're a pretty suspicious bunch, I bet they bot all the time, lets harass them too ! "How many trit does it take to get to the soft chewy core?"... bad idea, besides I want the gm's free to deal with ship replacement due to lag more then tracking down mythical botters.
Azuriel Talloth	Posted - 2005.09.27 13:00:00 - [23] Originally by: Summersnow Originally by: Face Lifter Besides, this stuff is only for mining in 0.5+ space. Low sec and 0.0 mining will never be bothered Answering it wrong won't get you banned, it'll simply alert GM that he should check you out. Which he may not, if he's busy. GMs don't have to act like total asses about it either, they could make the experience interesting, show in nice ship, have a short role playing chat, or just a single message exchange. Why only HARASS players in high security space? Why DISCRIMINATE against only those people and for that matter why should only miners be bothered? I think gatecamping 0.1 - 0.4 gates to be a far bigger problem to eve then macro miners, lets toss in some random questions to harass those guys too :-) "Hello, have you pod'd a newbi today?", "What kind of ship were they flying", "do you like my cat?" What about all those production guys? They're a pretty suspicious bunch, I bet they bot all the time, lets harass them too ! "How many trit does it take to get to the soft chewy core?"... bad idea, besides I want the gm's free to deal with ship replacement due to lag more then tracking down mythical botters. Are you for real? Sounds like you don't understand what a macro is. "Making no mistakes is what establishes the certainty of victory, for it means conquering an enemy that is already defeated."
Spathi	Posted - 2005.09.28 04:26:00 - [24] Edited by: Spathi on 28/09/2005 04:31:35 Instead of bugging the miners with questions every 30 mins or so, why not take the idea someone (edit I believe it was Draaven) said of making people type in a random code. --- Jetcans: You would need to enter one to make a jetcan. This code would only apply in 0.5+ as the risks in anything less for the macroers just means they don't operate there. --- Secures: There would need to be something different to secures because in 0.5-0.7 you can (obviously) anchor secures. Therefore they dont have to type in the code many times as they only deploy and anchor once and can mine forever. Perhaps "upgrade" secures so you need to type the random code before you can remove things from them. Your code would "authenticate" you to be allowed to remove stuff for a period of time (same time as a jetcan life), after which you need to enter a new code before you can remove items. This would prevent macroers in 0.5-0.7 as secures are useless in 0.8+ really. Anyone could come along and steal the can, plus the code would still apply to them in 0.8+. --------------- The code window would have a timer which aborts the command to jettison/deploy but then they have to wait another minute or two while the ships computer "Reconfigures from aborted Jettison". Also the window would be modal and in a random position to throw off any kind of automation. If the miner gets the code wrong more than twice (different code each time) then they get towed to a CONCORD base for "Not authenticating with CONCORD before deploying objects in space". Once they get towed to the base they get put into a forced chat with a GM or perhaps given the set of questions to answer. They would be given a timer in which to reply before the game auto logs out while CONCORD "Investigate them for other offenses.". If you get the questions right or talk to the GM and they believe you, then CONCORD tow you back to where you were with a "Sorry for any inconvenience" evemail from some high up CONCORD exec or something. That way any legit miners using jetcans just have to type in a code when they deploy or make a jetcan. The macroers would be able to make one can (as I assume someone would be there to set it going) but after that can dies they have to be at their computer supervising the macro to get it to work over long periods. Any macroers would soon get caught out by this as they get a number of wrong answers/auto logouts and CONCORD towings which makes it obvious to the GMs. To make the macroers fail faster you could reduce the jetcan timer to under an hour. While this might annoy some miners it would help the macroing problem. I believe this potential solution would certainly drive the macroing activities down a bit as the efforts required to keep it going are higher. If they have to keep coming back every hour to type in a code then they are almost at the level of AFK miners except that hauler would need something to catch it out (any ideas?). Just an idea ;) ~Spathi
Dimitri Chandler	Posted - 2005.09.28 06:04:00 - [25] Eve should come with finger traps that lock you to the keyboard so you can't go afk. Failing that, a padlock and chain that attaches you to your PC with 5-10ft room for manoeuver so you can at least make it to your fridge / pee bucket. --------------------------------------------------
Cadela Fria	Posted - 2005.09.28 07:26:00 - [26] Like it was said earlier...'aint no way in bloody hell that I'm gonna sit there and play 20-questions, it's simply too annoying, that'd be like having to answer questions while you're doing a miltary op, sitting in a safespot waiting for something, then as you're just about warp or something, a question dialog comes up "Hi! What year is it" - response: omgwtfbbq DIE CCP!!!!... As far as the jetcan, I'm sorry but having to enter a code everytime I wanna make one is not any less annoying and there aint no chance I'm gonna do that..that'd be like having to enter a code to be able to fire your bloody guns, could you just imagine that? - Fleet battles would be so obscure cause every module requires a code to activate.
Ly'sol	Posted - 2005.09.28 08:19:00 - [27] Wanna give miners some excitement and kill Macro Miners ? Make the roids explode.
Deka Kador	Posted - 2005.09.28 08:22:00 - [28] They'd have to be some pretty big explosions to knock out even an untanked Apoc...... ______________________________________________ Note\| This character is for forum posting purposes only.
Lifewire	Posted - 2005.09.28 08:59:00 - [29] The best way to finish macrominers is to allow -10 characters (IN THEIR SHIPS) in high sec. This means -10 characters can enter high sec and dont get attacked by Concord until they attack themselves. Believe me, macroers are at the end if pirates take care of these little buggers. BTW: if a player-police wants to hunt the pirates that dare to enter high sec...they are free to do that. Concord itself is the reason that macroers are in this game...nothing else: it¦s Concord defending these cheaters. Try a Teddybear spawn or the Teddybear complexes in Pure Blind, Syndicate or empire.
sonofollo	Posted - 2005.09.28 09:07:00 - [30] all good points as a player the quickest way to determine is to convo them if they accept most likley not a macro Also type in loca is x player a macro miner if they are not they will usually defend themselves with a response. If not then u can usually at least watch them gather evidence then petition then steal their jetcan
Jesters Knight	Posted - 2005.09.28 10:04:00 - [31] Edited by: Jesters Knight on 28/09/2005 10:03:51 i think i can handle being called an ore thief by a macro miner :)
Day Trade	Posted - 2005.09.28 10:54:00 - [32] Until CCP puts "Knowledge of the english language" as a requirement for playing this game the questions are out. Mr. "Keke Kwai" character that doesn't speak english will in theory have a 50/50 chance of getting the question right, this invalidates any results gathered from a player, so the only identification becomes "Did the client answer?". That can easily be automated.
Pyro Miner	Posted - 2005.09.28 12:56:00 - [33] The idea sucks i dont like mining anymore, but i do ice mining for the pos. and i dont want stupid questions that interupt me i also dont understand that the macroers diddnt get a permanent ban. away with those fools. only banned for a week is a joke _______________________________________________ Pyro is the name... Burning asteroids is my game...
Delacho	Posted - 2005.09.28 13:08:00 - [34] Ok, lets do it, lets even add way more questions, each time you attack someone in PVP a question pops up asking if you want to attack the other person. but no option to turn of the questions like it is now. Then after you aswer yes to the first question, a second appears asking if you are sure. Also during the time of the attack, every 10 seconds a question appears asking if you wanne keep shooting the poor guy on the other side, during the time the question window is up, nothing gets done by your ship.

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