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dalman
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Posted - 2005.09.29 16:54:00 -
[1]
This gotta stop.
Introduce a timer on the cloaking devices.
This is used by Burn Eden for example.
They place a covert ops ship cloaked at a safespot.
Where it's idle all day long. We're talking 15 hours straight.
At the same time they have an EW raven (or more) logged off at a safe in the system.
This effectively shuts down the entire system. As you never know if that covert ops ship really is idle, or if he's scouting you just waiting to log in the raven the same second you get scrambled by a belt NPC.
And there is absolutely no way of countering this. As it's impossible to find a cloaked ship at a safe. And the raven can't be baited either as he has 4 sensor dampeners and 5 stabs fitted.
With a timer on how long the cloaking device can stay active this will stop without in any way affecting the proper use of covert ops. Like 15 minutes active time, then another minute before it can cloak again.
/rant mode off
Drink up, shoot in. Let the beating begin.
Distributor of pain. Your loss becomes my gain...
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mirel yirrin
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Posted - 2005.09.29 16:59:00 -
[2]
why is everyone trying to nerf covert ops?
They are fine as they are.
The ships are specilised peices of tech that can maintain the cloak indefinatly. just don't npc in that system. there aren't enough players to cover every single system.
Also
Buhu (tm) adapt or die.
---------------------------------
KORKY Is Recruiting now!
Convo me for More Details.
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dalman
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Posted - 2005.09.29 17:20:00 -
[3]
1. It's not like they only have 1 of these covert ops 
2. It's not like they stay in the same system all the time
3. It doesn't only affect NPCing. It can also be used for log in traps at gates and stations. Example: Raven logs off at station or gate. Covert op scout around and see when a player warps to that gate or station. He logs in the raven which will arrive there before the player does.
4. I adapt and kill. Except in this case it's impossible to kill which is frustrating...
Drink up, shoot in. Let the beating begin.
Distributor of pain. Your loss becomes my gain...
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MrCue
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Posted - 2005.09.29 18:52:00 -
[4]
Edited by: MrCue on 29/09/2005 18:52:50
Sensor Booster II's, and a friend or 3 in the next system. will solve all your Burn Eden problems.
Or camp every system they enter with your friends until they get bored and leave.
Killmail Database |
dalman
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Posted - 2005.09.29 19:43:00 -
[5]
 Originally by: MrCue
Sensor Booster II's, and a friend or 3 in the next system. will solve all your Burn Eden problems.
Or camp every system they enter with your friends until they get bored and leave.
It is not Burn Eden per se that is the problem, they don't want to fight me (though they do score many other kills).
The problem is that ppl leave covert ops cloaked at safespot online all the time. Ffs, ppl leave them afk for hours when they are away from the computer.
And there is no way for ppl to tell if he is afk or if there is a high danger of an attack.
Drink up, shoot in. Let the beating begin.
Distributor of pain. Your loss becomes my gain...
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Ange1
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Posted - 2005.09.30 01:33:00 -
[6]
As someone who constantly uses a cloak on his HAC, I'm familiar with this tactic. I've only used it against people who insist on outblobbing me 10-1, rather than just doing it in a mining system to stop them from doing anything. Its my way of saying 'fine, waste your time'
But I seldom do it anyway, mainly because I don't trust my ship to stay cloaked while I sleep =P
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CEO of The Establishment |
WizEye
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Posted - 2005.09.30 04:12:00 -
[7]
How about simply disconnecting people who are idle for hours while still logged on? It could save some lag and also that particular issue
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Zyrla Bladestorm
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Posted - 2005.09.30 04:14:00 -
[8]
I've had engagements where I was stalking a stealth bomber pilot for a good 45-60 minutes, I consider that within the bounds of "proper use" surely ?
Even putting a limit of a few hours would probably hamper legitimate use.
Trying to put it simply : Covert ops players give up most/all defense/offense in order to gain the ability to gain intel - If they are doing so they are tieing up an account and character all the same.
If there is a covert player and a ganking ship (two players/accounts), them being able to beat players who try to operate alone doesn't seem that ludicrous - If they have only one gankship then presumably they cannot win if there are two of you equalling there total numbers.
To me, this just sounds like superior numbers and a little tactics being applied, Possibly lamely yes, but still doesn't seem to be anything out of the ordinary for how eve tactics actually go most of the time.
.
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Apologies for any rambling that may have just occurred.
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dalman
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Posted - 2005.09.30 07:14:00 -
[9]
Edited by: dalman on 30/09/2005 07:16:09
Originally by: Zyrla Bladestorm
I've had engagements where I was stalking a stealth bomber pilot for a good 45-60 minutes, I consider that within the bounds of "proper use" surely ?
Even putting a limit of a few hours would probably hamper legitimate use.
Not really.
Provided that the pilot has any clue about what he's doing (which covert op pilots usually do), there is no way you can find an active player in 30 seconds or 1 minute when his cloak wouldn't work.
And with the "countdown timer" that's introduced on SiSi being used, the pilot would now exactly how long time he has until he would decloak.
And by the way, sadly, 'all' covert ops pilots are players with multiple accounts :/
Drink up, shoot in. Let the beating begin.
Distributor of pain. Your loss becomes my gain...
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zincol
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Posted - 2005.09.30 07:57:00 -
[10]
Marco cloaker ftw?
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dalman
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Posted - 2005.09.30 08:13:00 -
[11]
Originally by: zincol
Marco cloaker ftw?
Not really.
Cause you'd still be able to find someone running a macro, unless he has a very big ammount of safespots.
And he could be petitioned...
Drink up, shoot in. Let the beating begin.
Distributor of pain. Your loss becomes my gain...
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DeMundus
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Posted - 2005.09.30 10:21:00 -
[12]
I think its only good you NPC'ers and company get some attention from us people using covert ops - you should not feel as safe as you do. Now for using login traps that sucks, but if a player wants to cloak his ship in "your" system all day fine by me and an idle timer would fix it. But a timer on cloaks... nah.
Besides catching a BS in a belt these days with the new warp in 80 & 100 km, is next to impossible without a covert ops. you guys got it to easy as it is.
Regards
DeM
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Afonso Henriques
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Posted - 2005.09.30 11:17:00 -
[13]
Ist a valid tactic. dont see any wonrg in using it. co ops is working fine as it is now imo. Only thing id change would be to hide co ops with cloack active from local chat.
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JoCool
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Posted - 2005.09.30 11:29:00 -
[14]
That's what covert ops are for. They're satellites, they provide intel on the movements on your enemy, they can oversee the system while their allies wait in hyperspace (logged off). A valid pirate tactic you've read in many books.
CO frigates can hardly do anything else.
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dalman
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Posted - 2005.09.30 11:38:00 -
[15]
Originally by: JoCool
That's what covert ops are for. They're satellites, they provide intel on the movements on your enemy, they can oversee the system while their allies wait in hyperspace (logged off). A valid pirate tactic you've read in many books.
CO frigates can hardly do anything else.
Yes Jo. BUT to oversee the system and provide intel requires an active pilot to be there. It doesn't provide any intel, it's only griefing when it's left idle at a safe for hours.
Originally by: DeMundus
I think its only good you NPC'ers and company get some attention from us people using covert ops - you should not feel as safe as you do. Now for using login traps that sucks, but if a player wants to cloak his ship in "your" system all day fine by me and an idle timer would fix it. But a timer on cloaks... nah.
Besides catching a BS in a belt these days with the new warp in 80 & 100 km, is next to impossible without a covert ops. you guys got it to easy as it is.
Regards
DeM
I would have suggested an idle timer from the beginning if it hadn't been so extremly useless due to macros.
Second, your comments, are they directed at me or at players in general? Cause as an ex-CA I would expect you to know far better than to direct that at me And it's also pretty much common knowledge how much I try to promote close range combat and was against the added warp-in-ranges.
Drink up, shoot in. Let the beating begin.
Distributor of pain. Your loss becomes my gain...
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Shaemell Buttleson
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Posted - 2005.09.30 11:49:00 -
[16]
Originally by: JoCool
That's what covert ops are for. They're satellites, they provide intel on the movements on your enemy, they can oversee the system while their allies wait in hyperspace (logged off). A valid pirate tactic you've read in many books.
CO frigates can hardly do anything else.
Exactly! leave them as they are.
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Draenor Thalander
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Posted - 2005.09.30 12:17:00 -
[17]
The concern here isn't really that cloaked ships provide intel, it's really that all someone needs to do is log in and they can gank. It's fine if the ganking ship is online and hiding in an asteroid belt or something, but it's another issue if the ganking ship is "cloaked" also by being offline.
By being able to login and be instantly combat ready, ganking ships get free cloaking, though it's actually better than any old kind of cloaking because they don't even show up through _any_ means of intel until they log in.
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DeMundus
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Posted - 2005.09.30 13:38:00 -
[18]
Edited by: DeMundus on 30/09/2005 13:43:51
Edited by: DeMundus on 30/09/2005 13:42:41
Originally by: dalman
Originally by: JoCool
That's what covert ops are for. They're satellites, they provide intel on the movements on your enemy, they can oversee the system while their allies wait in hyperspace (logged off). A valid pirate tactic you've read in many books.
CO frigates can hardly do anything else.
Yes Jo. BUT to oversee the system and provide intel requires an active pilot to be there. It doesn't provide any intel, it's only griefing when it's left idle at a safe for hours.
Originally by: DeMundus
I think its only good you NPC'ers and company get some attention from us people using covert ops - you should not feel as safe as you do. Now for using login traps that sucks, but if a player wants to cloak his ship in "your" system all day fine by me and an idle timer would fix it. But a timer on cloaks... nah.
Besides catching a BS in a belt these days with the new warp in 80 & 100 km, is next to impossible without a covert ops. you guys got it to easy as it is.
Regards
DeM
I would have suggested an idle timer from the beginning if it hadn't been so extremly useless due to macros.
Second, your comments, are they directed at me or at players in general? Cause as an ex-CA I would expect you to know far better than to direct that at me And it's also pretty much common knowledge how much I try to promote close range combat and was against the added warp-in-ranges.
My comments was directed at players in general, no worries m8. I think that its poor that its really only on gates players are weak towards attacks. Probing still sucks and WCS needs to be dealt with soon. Until then ill use my covert ops as I think is most benificial.
On a last note, I know you dalman - you used to "NPC" alot in Curse right (nah thx for dealing with the cearbears in CA)
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j0sephine
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Posted - 2005.09.30 13:40:00 -
[19]
Wouldn't it make more sense to give these tech.2 destroyers that are supposed to come "soon" the ability to locate cloaked ships... (by 'pinging' within certain area, or whatever) rather than plain nerf cloaks/covert ops? ^^;;
That's what part of the destroyers' job used to be, after all -- find the submerged, hiding vessels... and then either kill them, or bring someone who could.
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JimmySav
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Posted - 2005.09.30 18:07:00 -
[20]
Josephines idea is quite good actually
Make destroyers (only) able to fit a 20km pinger module which disrupts cloaks within 20km and some %age further out depending on skills or something maybe.....
cos lets face it, destroyers ahve little role in advanced game after their "nub big frigate" at start of game....
Jim'll Fix it For You. ( and you and you!)
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FalloutBoy
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Posted - 2005.09.30 18:51:00 -
[21]
Originally by: MrCue
Edited by: MrCue on 29/09/2005 18:52:50
Sensor Booster II's, and a friend or 3 in the next system. will solve all your Burn Eden problems.
even if you are running 2 sensorboosters 4 damps will still shut you down. and more boosters and thier is no way you could npc properly.
you would have about 250ish locking range with two boosters and damp pilot with lvl 4 skills will turn that into a 8km locking range with 4 damps
need a sig? Gallery Contact me for more info |
MrCue
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Posted - 2005.10.01 09:54:00 -
[22]
So the real issue is not being able to NPC with a refit to counter these people on?
Uh oh, how about you stop NPC'ing and close of your space instead?
Killmail Database |
Alberta
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Posted - 2005.10.01 11:24:00 -
[23]
I think the problem here lies more with the ease in which the raven can log on and off than with what the cov-ops is doing. The covert is doing exactly what it's job is and entirely in game.
My opinion: The PvP timer needs to be extended so people who use the logon-gank-logoff style have to either bring a cloak of their own, or spend a discouraging amount of time watching the scanner for probes before they can logoff.
My Thoughts on Game Balance |
dalman
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Posted - 2005.10.01 11:32:00 -
[24]
Originally by: MrCue
So the real issue is not being able to NPC with a refit to counter these people on?
Uh oh, how about you stop NPC'ing and close of your space instead?
No, it's NOT.
It seems most ppl reading this don't understand the issue.
The covert op frigate is left cloaked in space for hours afk. Ffs, ppl leave them online in space while they go to sleep.
And there is no way for ppl to know if the covert op really is afk for hours or if there is an active player there using it the way it's intended.
I don't wanna nerf the proper use of covert ops.
I can even stand the log-in traps used with it.
BUT I CAN'T STAND that there is no way for me to tell if a log in trap is imminent of if the ****** has left his ship afk in space for 5 hours just to ruin my playing time.
THAT is the issue.
Drink up, shoot in. Let the beating begin.
Distributor of pain. Your loss becomes my gain...
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Baraak Tizhaan
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Posted - 2005.10.01 13:05:00 -
[25]
I think that an automated, idle timer logoff is the way to go. Admittedly people could use macros to make it appear that they are still online, but these are banned by CCP and therefore could be policed by them.
In fact it's always surprised me that Eve has no automated, idle timer to log off players as this would be an easy way to reduce server load. It need not be a few minutes, but maybe an hour would be a place to start.
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MrCue
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Posted - 2005.10.01 13:27:00 -
[26]
Edited by: MrCue on 01/10/2005 13:28:25
Try playing in a different system.
An, no i dont agree with the whole login to gank attitude.
IMO, if you logout in space claimed by someone, your standings should determine the ammount of time you stay in space.
5 Minutes for friendly, 30 minutes for neutral, 1 hour for hostiles.
And when you login again, it should take
10 Minutes for friendly, 20 minutes for neutral/enemy
For your ships systems to come back online.
Killmail Database |
Alberta
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Posted - 2005.10.01 22:44:00 -
[27]
Originally by: MrCue
And when you login again, it should take
10 Minutes for friendly, 20 minutes for neutral/enemy
For your ships systems to come back online.
Problem is without close to 100% stability people are gonna get bored of that real fast.
My Thoughts on Game Balance |
Zarthanon
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Posted - 2005.10.02 06:16:00 -
[28]
Ok, I run 2 accounts on my computer nearly 100% of the time I play. I run one of them in a Covert oftentimes, and one of them in another ship be it BS, HAC, or a Frig. I play the game for a couple hours at a time and often leave the covert sitting at a gate or safe spot just spying for the hours flying around on my alt. I sometimes am there but don't move for a couple hours as there is no reason to. If I were to have to warp out and in every 15 minutes, that would do my head in.
The point to my rambling is that I don't want to be at a gate and have some stupid timer just log me off and decloak me at the gate ruining all of the time I've sat there without anyone knowing where I was, what I was in, and all that good tricky/element of surpsise junk. If you don't like the way Burn Eden plays the game, or how the game allows them to do that--QUIT. You could even just move away from them, it's not that hard to get away from things like this.
Originally by: ParMizaN
i mayv or may nit abe a bit drunk
Originally by: Buddrow
TO THETR DRUMNBS OF WAR WET GHO
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Dallenn
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Posted - 2005.10.02 09:10:00 -
[29]
Originally by: Zarthanon
I play the game for a couple hours at a time and often leave the covert sitting at a gate or safe spot just spying for the hours flying around on my alt. I sometimes am there but don't move for a couple hours as there is no reason to. If I were to have to warp out and in every 15 minutes, that would do my head in.
So in other words, a timer would be an effective way to nerf this tactic. CCP has taken steps to prevent afk mining with alt armies, why would they not try to prevent afk spying with alt armies? The point is that you have to play the game yourself actively for it to be fun and balanced, not just buy n number of accounts and have the game play the accounts for you.
Quote:
The point to my rambling is that I don't want to be at a gate and have some stupid timer just log me off and decloak me at the gate ruining all of the time I've sat there without anyone knowing where I was, what I was in, and all that good tricky/element of surpsise junk.
IF we assume that it's your main that is sitting at the gate for hours, and you are there personally to check things, then everything is fine by me. In fact this could be a valid argument against timers. But I think you could implement a timer so that if you move, the timer is reset, which would make the thing sensible for players that don't play AFK.
Quote:
If you don't like the way Burn Eden plays the game, or how the game allows them to do that--QUIT. You could even just move away from them, it's not that hard to get away from things like this.
Or if you see an unbalanced tactic that makes the game less fun for everyone, try to change it. And if you can have people move away from an area with just 2 pilots (accounts really, of which only 1 has to have the character logged on), I think you have come into possession of an unbalanced tactic to gain territory in Eve.
Roleplaying in Eve |
j0sephine
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Posted - 2005.10.02 09:54:00 -
[30]
"CCP has taken steps to prevent afk mining with alt armies, why would they not try to prevent afk spying with alt armies?"
... Because afk miner still actively mines the ore, while afk spy is well, afk... and as such can see and report jack sh.t? ^^;;;
"But I think you could implement a timer so that if you move, the timer is reset, which would make the thing sensible for players that don't play AFK."
If anything, that'd be incentive for people to create macros, just so their ship appears for the client/server to occasionally move even when they're afk. Seeing how that's the 'normal' reaction to activity timers in all other games using them :/
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