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Rasta Rocketman
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Posted - 2005.09.30 13:26:00 -
[31]
TPS was an experiment into pirate alliances, which to me seemed pointless. We behaved exactly like an alliance, and had space to defend, as well as other hinderances of alliance-life. In the case of TPS, Celeste Apoc was invading 'our' space using guerilla tactics lmao. Was the funniest role reversal I had ever seen.
But the question at hand, I think hardened alliances would probably win vs a pirate alliance.
Reason being
1) they have fleet commanders experienced at blob warfare, pirates mostly use guerilla warfare and superior skirmish tactics.
2) would never happen anyway because many pirates don't like the idea of losing a ship for no particular reason or without having fun doing it (ie..blob warfare = primary dies regardless). There is no sense of 'defend my home/freedom/way of life/blablabla' with pirates so there would be no point.
3) pirates would get bored with rules and alliance life, so it probably not last long (see TPS).
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Skywalker
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Posted - 2005.09.30 13:36:00 -
[32]
Edited by: Skywalker on 30/09/2005 13:38:42
Edited by: Skywalker on 30/09/2005 13:37:30
MAFIA have been in Catch 22 alliance and FoE when it was at it's peak. I have seen how it works practically and from that i draw some conclusions.
Being in a pirate alliance is fun in many ways, but they are usually doomed to failed.
The main reason for this is controlling and claiming of space. When a pirate alliance settles down and claim a piece of space, they will draw attraction from all larger non-pirate alliances. This is what happend in FoE, and also the main reason why the alliance fell apart.
I have some ideas that might work for future pirate alliances...
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Problem: Claiming space draws attraction
Solution: Don't claim any space, be a "mobile" alliance.
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Problem: How to make money, if you don't claim space ?
Solution1: Charge other alliances a "protection" fee.
(If they don't pay, just reside in their space)
Solution2: Make deals with one alliance, if you can use their space for npcing, mining...they won't get attacked, and they will also benefit from the pirate alliance that will kos all enemies of the "host" alliance.
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Conclusion:
I think that my suggestions would work, and it might be fun to have a pirate alliance that do joint operations invading and blackmailing other alliances.
But i also think that it might be recommended to let the pirate alliance members have some time off to do their own pirating on different places, between the "bigger" alliance blackmail deals. This would be kind of like merc alliances work, except the unlawful side.
If any pirate corporations are intrested in my ideas, i might be willing to discuss this further, just drop me a line.
*added after initial post
- Of course it is of highest importance to keep politics at a minimum, politics are boring and so think most pirates if im not mistaken....
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Hans Roaming
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Posted - 2005.09.30 14:53:00 -
[33]
I think a Pirate alliance would win if they played to their strengths and not that of their enemies. Keep mobile, don't claim space, keep moving to fresh targets as every battle trains the enemy how to fight you. Engaging in blob warfare plays to an alliances strengths as does claiming space.
Think like the Necromongers in The Chronicles of Rid**** rather than becoming a pirate alliance that turns from what it does best. Don't bother with blob warfare and keep going. One way might be to go clockwise around the map and take say 3-6 months to make a circuit. Would be fun for sure.
Outreach Executive
Huzzah Foreign Affairs
"I need you guys to come right away, or better yet send someone who can fight" |
Boonaki
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Posted - 2005.09.30 14:58:00 -
[34]
TPS were a bunch of carebears that had also trained up for PVP :P
Fear the Ibis of doom. |
Dalgy
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Posted - 2005.09.30 15:10:00 -
[35]
 Originally by: slothe
FOE ? = Forces of Evil.
They camp 0.0 then run whenever hostiles come for them ;)
Still laughing at this, if you want to fight us bring 1 or 2 more ships to give you an advantage we arn't going to fight you when you have 20 more.
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darth solo
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Posted - 2005.09.30 15:15:00 -
[36]
Originally by: Lilan Kahn
no one remebers tps :(
i remember TPS... when we were fighting you, our corp was at its best.. we once had 28 BS just from celestial apocalypse in our gang... now we are lucky to have 2.8, ack.
d solo.
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Gift
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Posted - 2005.09.30 15:39:00 -
[37]
Originally by: Kjewla
Originally by: Gift
Soldier = Fights prepared enemy
Pirate = Targets unsuspecting victims
Soldier > Pirate
...Youre point being?
My point is this...
I have fought in alliances & I have pirated, Pirates can pick and choose targets and manipulated all the factors involved to create a favorable outcome. Alliances do that to an extent but if they are protecting their space the cant always choose who or when they fight.
I can't remember ever losing a 1v1 to a pirate but I have lost many to soldiers. This is not a shot at pirates as what I described is necessary to be an effective pirate, you don't get rich losing ships. Of course I am painting with a broad brush as there are always exceptions but this is the general conclusion I draw from 2+ years in eve.
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Karneh Vorous
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Posted - 2005.09.30 15:57:00 -
[38]
Pirates and Alliances just don't mix. A pirate is mobile and goes where the targets are. An alliance builds itself off of stability and how they interact with their neighbors.
The same thing happens over and over when you introduce a pirate corp to an alliance. The alliance makes NAPs with all the surrounding alliances and the pirate corp has to travel out great distances to seek out a fight. Meanwhile they are expected to also defend the homeland where "fighting" is limited to catching frigs and shuttles that try to break through your camp.
The only way a pirate alliance could survive is with a persistant enemy. An enemy that fights you daily and is in the same area as you. However, once the fighting is done and the resistance is gone... so is the fun. The alliance will die unless it finds new ground to fight on.
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Con'Mal
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Posted - 2005.09.30 18:12:00 -
[39]
Sugar come talk to me anytime
I think jumping in on myself and greenhornet the other day took balls and I would be happy to fly with you guys
"The race is not [always] to the swift, nor the battle to the strong."
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Lifewire
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Posted - 2005.09.30 19:25:00 -
[40]
A pirate alliance could easily take down any alliance in the galaxy. The key would be to not play the alliances game of blobbing and fleet battles. The key would be to have skirmish forces in the whole alliance territory and bring down the infrastucture and logistics of an alliance to zero performance. Then have the operation running long enough to make the alliance fall in pieces with people leaving the area and others loosing so much equipment until they also have to go.
In the end a very booring job to destroy an alliance and absolutly not pirate-like. It doesnt make sense to destroy your cattle. You need to give them time to breath to recover and mine some Zydrine that you can loot.
Try a Teddybear spawn or the Teddybear complexes in Pure Blind, Syndicate or empire. |
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PCP Mcgee
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Posted - 2005.10.01 03:17:00 -
[41]
Pirates generally lack the mentality to organize sufficiently to form an alliance. By nature they don't want to co-operate and play well with others. It'd be great for the game if pirates formed an alliance that worked. Imagine another alliance fleet forming to engage a pirate fleet only to warp inhave them scatter and realize it had be a diversion while other more pirates raided and destroyed the alliances supply lines.
Of course, a pirate alliance would have to have a MAJOR goal, like influencing game politics, fighting an empire for control of central space or becoming the enforcers in a region of space.
Think of that last one. Pirates unite to force the mighty concord out of a region. then charge merchants a 'fee' to jump through gates they control. not too much or they'll stop coming, 100K to move safely through, per jump. Times 100 jumps a day. Times how ever many solar systems the alliance controls. It adds up.
Pirates could do a lot better than killing traders they just haven't realized it yet. Control then profit. You'll always have some that try to run or not pay > hunt em down, charge em 'interest'. The mob makes more money than a petty crook.
I'm not sure where that came from, I'm not a pirate. I just like an interesting world to play in.
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Kjewla
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Posted - 2005.10.01 03:38:00 -
[42]
Originally by: PCP Mcgee
Pirates generally lack the mentality to organize sufficiently to form an alliance. By nature they don't want to co-operate and play well with others. It'd be great for the game if pirates formed an alliance that worked. Imagine another alliance fleet forming to engage a pirate fleet only to warp inhave them scatter and realize it had be a diversion while other more pirates raided and destroyed the alliances supply lines.
Of course, a pirate alliance would have to have a MAJOR goal, like influencing game politics, fighting an empire for control of central space or becoming the enforcers in a region of space.
Think of that last one. Pirates unite to force the mighty concord out of a region. then charge merchants a 'fee' to jump through gates they control. not too much or they'll stop coming, 100K to move safely through, per jump. Times 100 jumps a day. Times how ever many solar systems the alliance controls. It adds up.
Pirates could do a lot better than killing traders they just haven't realized it yet. Control then profit. You'll always have some that try to run or not pay > hunt em down, charge em 'interest'. The mob makes more money than a petty crook.
I'm not sure where that came from, I'm not a pirate. I just like an interesting world to play in.
This is funny, what you are saying is that pirates are less organized than others? 
Nest etter styrken er ingenting st°rre enn evnen til Õ beherske den.
Teddybears Forum |
PCP Mcgee
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Posted - 2005.10.01 04:47:00 -
[43]
Pirates on a small scale are very organized. I'm saying that on a larger scale, we haven't seen it in EVE. Pirates stick to performing fairly limited 'petty crime'. Mostly, I'd say, because nobody has offered them the opportunity to do something more. It would take a lot of charisma and determination to show them what they could be. Can anyone forge the pirates of EVE into a major force instead of the small-timers that they are now?
Bring on a MAJOR pirate alliance, with tactics to match!
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Famine Aligher'ri
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Posted - 2005.10.01 05:40:00 -
[44]
Originally by: darth solo
Originally by: Lilan Kahn
no one remebers tps :(
i remember TPS... when we were fighting you, our corp was at its best.. we once had 28 BS just from celestial apocalypse in our gang... now we are lucky to have 2.8, ack.
d solo.
Yes, it was really cool seeing atleast 20 of you storming p3 and raping people left and right. But most of us were in smaller ships. Still pretty good tactics none the less. Never saw it comming.
-Famine Aligher'ri, of The Aligher'ri
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Lifewire
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Posted - 2005.10.01 08:25:00 -
[45]
Edited by: Lifewire on 01/10/2005 08:25:12
As i said: there is no need to organise much in a pirate alliance, since it doesnt make sense to play the alliance blobbing game.
If for example TRS, Snigg and us would start a pirate alliance an we would additionally recruit as much small pirate corps as possible, we would be able to bring down any alliance territory. There would be zero traffic, zero mining, zero NPCing, zero industrial work once 200-300 pirates patrol the area. But this would be soooooooooo boring that no pirate would like to do it.
In the past there where several incidents of pirate corps merging temporary into alliances and nearly all these incidents changed the map. So saying pirates are not able is wrong - they are not willing to have 1000 napped targets.
The only pirate alliance that could offer some fun would be a temporary merger of all pirates to cut the empire tradelines with dozens of camps at all strategic locations in empire. So basically what pirates do right now anyway, just more organised with a command team that organises to cut down as much trade lines as possible at the same time. But what would we gain??? Just some Tomb nerfe bashing.
Try a Teddybear spawn or the Teddybear complexes in Pure Blind, Syndicate or empire. |
SHYBUM1
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Posted - 2005.10.01 10:13:00 -
[46]
Originally by: Xenios Alfar
I honestly believe an alliance of pirate corps could take on a lot of other alliances but its just not practical.. less loot for all. And as for the pirate bashing.. Gah you suck. The minute a pirate orientated thread comes up you get some hateful little carebear coem along and state things that are better than pirates without any discernable proof. Please prove that Soldier > Pirate comment with evidence.
Well for one he is living proof...and I know you didn't just call him a carebear...
The thing is eve changes and if it didn't it would get boring...I mean look at it now they add all this stuff and its still getting boring I understand they need to do the small changes before the big and its prolly one of the hardest things to do while tryn to keep a time scale for all the "Uber" SP guys but what ever, my point is this...
Yeah we can all form up and make an "Alliance" and go out there and kill kill kill, and win against anyone we want, it can be done and it can be sustained if thatÆs what everyone wants but ppl change their minds just as fast as your kid sh1ts himself and its time for a changing. At this point in time there isn't enough incentives to wanna do all that, yeah we can do what BOB did and gather everyone we take over and have them fight with us to keep their space and any new space we go after blah blah blah...but what you really gotta look at is the definition of being a pirate in eve... doing this "Alliance" thing will just make us another alliance nothing more yeah it may have different goals in the beginning but you all know its gonna come down to having our own production corp to make money. An alliance can't run on npc kills alone and besides if it was the uberest fun to do, then everyone would love doing it but not everyone does. I tell you one thing though it would be alot of fun to just go out and do it if I never had to worry about money.
For all of you who keep repeating yourselves I feel sorry for ya, truly I do.
In the words of GIFT "That is all"
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ParMizaN
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Posted - 2005.10.01 11:48:00 -
[47]
I took pride in leading what i thought as one o the strongest flee in the game: 120 pilots from FOE; efficient, skilled and deadly.
At that time FOE was ne of the strongest alliances in the game and was made up of nearly all pirate corporations. It was just a pity that we got blobbed to hell and back by like 5 alliances and began to fall apart 
Killing the rich and giving to me |
Tenacha Khan
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Posted - 2005.10.01 14:01:00 -
[48]
I think that when pirate alliances have no common goal beyond isk its more fun.
Such as when In the early days of tundragon we were allied with pld, biomass and crusaders 10k ad and i think it was called pod mafia. We used to camp lots of low sec empire systems and it was all about loot and ransoms with plenty of fun.
Then alot more pirate corps joined such as space invaders, carebears on weed, spang, huff, TLBC, valkryies (sp?) and a few more. It was the begining of the Dark Empire later called the forsaken empire as there was a corp called the dark empire already. In the begining it was still just more of the same with camps all around and the odd incursion into Venal to kill some NVA, then all of a sudden it was all about killing nva, nva died and were forced to leave venal in their 24hr ceasefire.
So at this point there is a large war engine on the go but with no large target, but at the same time m0o was invading FA and some FE guys headed that way out on their own, then the entire FE moved that way to occupy Fountain. This imo was boring and not piracey so I only went to kill FA indys with a few other Tundragons but would never engage in these fleet battles. At this point FE realised that they needed a stronger leadership heirachy and a sound logistics base and formed one corp called FE and started to claim space around vale and tribute.
Thats where it got boring for me, too many FE going mining ops and claiming space and not at all piracey so we more or less split but kept a nap.
So as you can see in the begining it was fun when pirating people, but kicking an alliance out of a region just for the sake of it was boring.
Our next alliance
BNC had claimed fade which was one of tundragons hunting grounds, so we hooked up with spang again along with TINK, FREE, phonixs old corp (dunno the name) and also some FE to form Rising storm alliance (later became fade union) to kick bnc and arcadia out and claim all fade stations. In the begining it was fun, but so many blue squares was annoying and normal alliance life became dull until every pirate hunting/merc/good boy corp in eve began to attack as RSA were harbouring pirates. We in tundragon and bncl hated this defending space idea, so we moved out.
Defending empty gates is boring for pirates, another reason why a pirate alliance is boring.
I know I would never join a war objective alliance as it kills off the people i like to pirate. All alliances will become organised and will claim space, its just a matter of time then it gets dull.
My best short time alliance was TDG, SPVD and Zombies, we were together for a few weeks, killed lots of people then realised there were too many pirates in syndicate so SPVD and Zombies left for curse to kick some ass there.
My best long term alliance is tundragon, teddys and bncl, we stayed small and never tried to kill off an alliance, just taking the cream off the top and have lasted since march 2004. We have no long term goals besides survival and thats why we last as a pirate alliance.
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Har Ganeth
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Posted - 2005.10.01 16:42:00 -
[49]
Pirates always run.
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SugarDaddy
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Posted - 2005.10.01 17:29:00 -
[50]
Originally by: Har Ganeth
Pirates always run.
Pirates always run to scramble and web their targets.... even ALTS like you
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Gift
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Posted - 2005.10.01 18:00:00 -
[51]
Originally by: Xenios Alfar
I honestly believe an alliance of pirate corps could take on a lot of other alliances but its just not practical.. less loot for all. And as for the pirate bashing.. Gah you suck. The minute a pirate orientated thread comes up you get some hateful little carebear coem along and state things that are better than pirates without any discernable proof. Please prove that Soldier > Pirate comment with evidence.
listen little nub, I was at -10 one year before you even started playing. I am still an outlaw unlike you who seemed to be hiding behind the sentrys, so who is the carebear?. You know nothing about what you speak. I wasn't even bashing pirates, I am saying war isnt their game, extortion is. So in a war senerio I think they will fall short.
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Fredbob
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Posted - 2005.10.01 18:08:00 -
[52]
Pirates and 0.0 alliance members play very different games. Whilst both can be uber at PvP, their PvP is very different, and as such, I think "pirates" would have to change their tactics if they were to "beat" alliances from their homes. Alliance members are used to larger gangs (usually), and rarely head out to gank haulers in belts, pirates have to overcome all situations with their setup, and operate either solo or smaller gangs. However to "beat" a 0.0 alliance you'd have to adapt to 0.0 fighting, which more than likely would involve massive BS fleet combat, not your usuall pirate's tactic 
This isn't a anti-pirate flame, most are damn good at what they do  , it's just pirating and attacking/defending 0.0 space need very different tactics/setups/ship combinations etc. 
___________
~Fredbob~
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Kjewla
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Posted - 2005.10.01 18:56:00 -
[53]
Originally by: Fredbob
However to "beat" a 0.0 alliance you'd have to adapt to 0.0 fighting, which more than likely would involve massive BS fleet combat, not your usuall pirate's tactic
Fleet battles are all about having anuff scramblers tbh
-only English in your signature graphic please - Jacques
Teddybears Forum |
Famine Aligher'ri
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Posted - 2005.10.01 20:32:00 -
[54]
Pssh, most of the experience pirates I pay attention too have enough skill and be able to adapt to any alliance pvp enviroment. They just choose not to go that route for the fact alliances are for high rollers. There is no isk envolved in blobbing. There is no skill envolved in having numbers. Most of the pirates in EVE are in yes smaller groups if not solo. This is far greater learning experience in PvP than hiding behind a 1000man alliance. Sure your fleet might be elite and all of that. Still doesn't mean you don't get ganked 1 on 1 by someone who doesnt hide behind alliances.
-Famine Aligher'ri, of The Aligher'ri
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Lifewire
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Posted - 2005.10.01 22:39:00 -
[55]
Lets make it short and brutal:
Ask yourself: what does make people nap 1000 or more other players??? It¦s pure fear!!! It¦s the safety of the blob...nothing else.
Mass-napping makes your corp loose individuality. It will get less respected, less feared, less known. Being in an alliance is admitting to be too weak for 0.0.
Try a Teddybear spawn or the Teddybear complexes in Pure Blind, Syndicate or empire. |
Shaelin Corpius
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Posted - 2005.10.02 19:06:00 -
[56]
Originally by: PCP Mcgee
Pirates on a small scale are very organized. I'm saying that on a larger scale, we haven't seen it in EVE. Pirates stick to performing fairly limited 'petty crime'. Mostly, I'd say, because nobody has offered them the opportunity to do something more. It would take a lot of charisma and determination to show them what they could be. Can anyone forge the pirates of EVE into a major force instead of the small-timers that they are now?
Bring on a MAJOR pirate alliance, with tactics to match!
Thing is, blob warefare is the ultimate most boring, unprofitable, worst ship kill/loss ratio gameplay you can get. Pirates are not about sitting in one spot for 3 hours having the enemy blob up on us and sit a fight it out from 150km. Each side losing a ship here and there. Its pure crap fighting like that, ends in the server node dying and people getting ****ed off, bored, and eventually broke.
We would rather engage a severly bigger blob in skirmish tactic, and take them out 1-2 ata time, which almost always works. If you think pirate allies don't exist, you should ask around. Some of us work together, and are very precise. Too fast for them to react properly.
In face to face combat, I would say some small pirate stuff kill more ships in a day, than most major alliances.
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Torpedo2k
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Posted - 2005.10.03 03:28:00 -
[57]
Originally by: Har Ganeth
Pirates always run.
Yes, to pick up your can. <- Intentional Flame. So ban me.
There are no:
1-Safe spots
2-Ore thieves
3-Corp thieves
Just people that do not understand game mechanics.
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PCP Mcgee
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Posted - 2005.10.03 06:08:00 -
[58]
I was saying bring on a Pirate alliance with tactics to match. NOT adopt the tactics of existing alliances. NOT engage in blob battles. NOT destroy the people making isk by mining or trading.
Think of the possibilities besides blowing a ship up and running away with the loot (if there is any).
That was my point.
The lack of ingenuity to do anything new or different. Camp, run, shoot. I guess for some people thats the limit. I thought that a lot of the pirates in EVE were more sharper than that. Some of the ones I've talked to have been anyway.
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FoRGyL
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Posted - 2005.10.03 06:44:00 -
[59]
Pirates and war well what can I say the day I struck -5 I was with war with anyone who wanna proceed it.
The thing is i like this idea just to cover ground (info) and get peps toghter ,LifeW first post about InfraDest, combine that with SKy's post and u have pirating on a bigger scale but the thoughts is to be alittle bit everywhere ..as now!
But event's, bigger evil and shuch could be arranged now and then ...no logistics short funny stuff then back to normal or such ...just get a underground network going and stay in shape as we r now kinda thing .
That is my few morningthoughts on this well back to wrok!
-out-
*********************************************************
Pay or don't!
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SugarDaddy
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Posted - 2005.10.03 12:34:00 -
[60]
Originally by: FoRGyL
The thing is i like this idea just to cover ground (info) and get peps toghter ,LifeW first post about InfraDest, combine that with SKy's post and u have pirating on a bigger scale but the thoughts is to be alittle bit everywhere ..as now!
But event's, bigger evil and shuch could be arranged now and then ...no logistics short funny stuff then back to normal or such ...just get a underground network going and stay in shape as we r now kinda thing .
underground network.........sounds ebil....
Do you think we could put this on? From time to time we could put this network to work and show all Eve who runs the show...
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