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Gosakumori Noh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
201
   |
Posted - 2013.05.08 04:16:00 -
[31] - Quote
Samira Kernher wrote:Gosakumori Noh wrote:It would be astounding - save for the fact we are talking about the most superficial, vapid, and self-absorbed members of the pod community. Like yourself.
Indeed. I am an expert on the subject. Idiot. |
Elsebeth Rhiannon
Gradient
Electus Matari
379
|
Posted - 2013.05.08 04:59:00 -
[32] - Quote
Answers to some questions and concerns:
1) I was not "just following orders". I made a choice to follow the chain of command I have willingly taken an oath to. Those are two different things and if you are unable to grasp the difference, I really have nothing further to say to you
2) If I could do it over again, I would make the same choice. I think the decision to cross the border with force was dead wrong, but for me, personally, to bail out at the first unpleasant order I disagree with would make the above oath completely meaningless.
3) I called myself 'an oath-sworn warrior'. Others used the world soldier, which is indeed a misnomer. I am not part of the military, I am an indie capsuleer. I could have refused without facing court-martial and I was under no personal duress of any kind.
4) I wish I could say this was definitely the last time you will see Electus Matari forces on a similar operation. I cannot, however. Not only can I not guarantee we will not be there if the Republic leadership decides to continue this madness, but also what has been started now has a chance to escalate so that we will in reality not have a choice.
I am sorry I cannot be more reassuring.
Elsebeth |
Morwen Lagann
Tyrathlion Interstellar
579
|
Posted - 2013.05.08 05:52:00 -
[33] - Quote
It is still better to be honest and up-front about it now, than to attempt to backpedal later like many others would do in order to avoid accountability for their words and actions.
You have my respect and thanks for the way you have handled the aftermath of today's events, more readily than I would have expected, had one suggested this would be the outcome.
Morwen Lagann
Director, Tyrathlion Interstellar |
Rodj Blake
Praetorian Auxiliary Force
Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
1329
|
Posted - 2013.05.08 06:28:00 -
[34] - Quote
Shintoko Akahoshi wrote:Can you imagine being a fly on the wall of the Imperial Court today?
There are no flies in the Imperial Court.
Dulce et decorum est pro imperium mori. |
Laerise
PIE Inc.
Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
44
|
Posted - 2013.05.08 07:12:00 -
[35] - Quote
So Electus Matari aided the republic fleet in a heinous act of terrorism against a foreign nation?
Considering their long history of supporting radical elements in the so called "republic" I'm not really surprised... |
Amseln deBrabant
Ochsenbruegger
8
|
Posted - 2013.05.08 07:16:00 -
[36] - Quote
Elsebeth Rhiannon wrote:Answers to some questions and concerns:
1) I was not "just following orders". I made a choice to follow the chain of command I have willingly taken an oath to. Those are two different things and if you are unable to grasp the difference, I really have nothing further to say to you
2) If I could do it over again, I would make the same choice. I think the decision to cross the border with force was dead wrong, but for me, personally, to bail out at the first unpleasant order I disagree with would make the above oath completely meaningless.
3) I called myself 'an oath-sworn warrior'. Others used the world soldier, which is indeed a misnomer. I am not part of the military, I am an indie capsuleer. I could have refused without facing court-martial and I was under no personal duress of any kind.
4) I wish I could say this was definitely the last time you will see Electus Matari forces on a similar operation. I cannot, however. Not only can I not guarantee we will not be there if the Republic leadership decides to continue this madness, but also what has been started now has a chance to escalate so that we will in reality not have a choice.
I am sorry I cannot be more reassuring.
Elsebeth
i respect your actions and i agree that the choice you made was the only way you could handle this. I did the same in defending my Navy and shooting at the Naglfars.
And i must say, despite your action today, there will be a tommorow and i truly wish to have the opportunity to fight under such a commander like you are.
When the slavers will take any actions against your people, call on me if you wish, and i will come to help you as best as i can to blow Amar ships to pieces. |
Halete
Pyre Falcon Defence Cadre XV-01A
Pyre Falcon Defence Combine
803
|
Posted - 2013.05.08 08:59:00 -
[37] - Quote
There is no question of it; the Republic has shown it's ugliness.
Yet, in these troubled times, you portray a prettier facet of your nation, Elsebeth.
Thank-you.
Trading chains for shackles, I am free. |
Vinh Trahn
Re-Awakened Technologies Inc
0
|
Posted - 2013.05.08 10:25:00 -
[38] - Quote
Last night I joined the Electus Matari fleet into Colelie under the command of Elsebeth Rhiannon.
I joined the fleet as a member of the Republic
I joined the fleet as a tribesman.
I joined the fleet of my own free will, something I value dearly.
I understand that I irreversibly tied my name and through proxy that of the corporation I represent to these events.
My actions were my own and I understand I am accountable for blood spilled, lives lost, and crew rescued alike.
I would like to point out that what I did was not done out of hatred or malice towards the Federation, to it's Navy and it's people. I set out to support the Republic, and that is what I did. |
Lyn Farel
Kitzless
491
|
Posted - 2013.05.08 10:43:00 -
[39] - Quote
Ava Starfire wrote:Lyn Farel wrote:It included assassinating their warmongering leader, abandoning their whole fleet in the process. I would have abandoned the fleet. I will not abandon my boss, friends, and relatives. You seem to be confused. My friends, boss, and relatives werent on Naglfars.
I am not especially blaming you for what you did... |
Kade Jeekin
Masuat'aa Matari
Ushra'Khan
42
|
Posted - 2013.05.08 11:11:00 -
[40] - Quote
If anyone got in the way of vengeance against one who has murdered my family, Ray of Matar or not., they would be treated in like fashion.
And for you who harp on about how Karin Midular worked for peace with the Amarr and Ammatar and tried to institute a Gallente-style democracy in the Republic - remember where that got her and the Republic.
She'd opened her eyes since then. |
Draqone an'Alreigh
EVE University
Ivy League
17
|
Posted - 2013.05.08 12:51:00 -
[41] - Quote
I would say you have made the right choice.
I am Gallente. I arrived on the field as part of grideris' fleet hoping that the negotiation between the Republic and the Federation will be a way out of the situation. As the exchange I realised that I can NOT side with the Gallente who clearly are hiding something. There is no reason why they can not hand over a terrorist.
While not happy with the resolution, I think the Minmatar were right pursuing justice. |
Caellach Marellus
Aideron Technologies
910
|
Posted - 2013.05.08 13:01:00 -
[42] - Quote
Elsebeth Rhiannon wrote:
1) I was not "just following orders". I made a choice to follow the chain of command I have willingly taken an oath to. Those are two different things and if you are unable to grasp the difference, I really have nothing further to say to you
This oath, does it state you'll willingly take up arms as part of an invading fleet against allies of the Republic?
Does it state you'll break the Yulai convention willingly over a dispute to which you have no legal standing?
Does it state you'll blindly start firing just because others did so first?
See, if this was a Federal fleet in Republic space I'd completely understand your oath. You'd be defending the Republic from a hostile invader. You assisted an invading fleet against your own allies, what kind of bullshit oath is that Elsebeth?
Enjoy your gaming.
http://northern-goblin.blogspot.com |
Elsebeth Rhiannon
Gradient
Electus Matari
385
|
Posted - 2013.05.08 13:15:00 -
[43] - Quote
I hereby declare my oath of loyalty to the Minmatar Republic. I absolutely and wholly renounce all pledges, fidelities, and allegiances to any foreign sovereignties or powers. I swear to support and defend the Minmatar Republic, its people, policies, holdings, and agents, its sovereignty and the integrity of its territory against all enemies and usurpers, foreign and domestic. I will bear arms on behalf of the Minmatar Republic in times of war, and will perform civil service on its behalf in times of peace. I will obey, uphold, and defend its laws and treaties. I will perform work of national importance under governmental, military, or civilian direction as required by the Minmatar Republic in times of emergency. I make this commitment unreservedly, with no mental reservation or purpose of evasion.
With this oath, I affirm and assert my loyalty to the Minmatar Republic.
One could, naturally, weasel out of following unpleasant orders by said "governmental, military or civilian, direction" by splitting hairs about how this is not really a "time of emergency" despite the nation being at war, or "work of national importance" despite being a Fleet operation lead by an Admiral, or how following that direction actually contradicts with the "obey, uphold and defend its... treaties" part.
Maybe a time will come when I will resort to that. That time did not come yesterday, however, and it is not today. The true meaning of the oath is not in the individual words to be played lawyer about, it is in the spirit of support to my nation. They called; I answered.
Would I take this oath today, knowing what I know now? No.
But that is beside the point.
Elsebeth |
Caellach Marellus
Aideron Technologies
910
|
Posted - 2013.05.08 13:28:00 -
[44] - Quote
Your oath swore you to defend the Republic.
In what twisted universe do you live in where defending the Republic means "Invading and assaulting it's allies."?
Or are the Republic and the Federation suddenly at war, or was this really a time of emergency? Because if you call this a time of emergency then your oath is practically meaningless to allow such an open ended interpretation to be used on a whim.
Nothing in that oath supports what you did yesterday, I thought your principles to be better than this Elsebeth. I held a lot of respect for you, that despite disagreements you were a person with integrity regarding doing the right thing when push came to shove.
Clearly I was wrong.
Enjoy your gaming.
http://northern-goblin.blogspot.com |
Lyn Farel
Kitzless
493
|
Posted - 2013.05.08 13:40:00 -
[45] - Quote
Kade Jeekin wrote:If anyone got in the way of vengeance against one who has murdered my family they would be treated in like fashion.
And for you who harp on about how Karin Midular worked for peace with the Amarr and Ammatar and tried to institute a Gallente-style democracy in the Republic - remember where that got her and the Republic.
She'd had her eyes opened since then.
Electus Matari - fly free
Midular merely was elected prime minister in a democratic system. She has nothing to do with its implementation. The only thing she can be blamed of could be that she did nothing to change the system, if that is something to be blamed for. |
Sepherim
PIE Inc.
Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
415
|
Posted - 2013.05.08 14:31:00 -
[46] - Quote
I understand your position. Once in the Navy and under superior command, one must follow through with what comes. That is the duty of the soldier.
That said, if you expressely mentioned you didn't want to wage war, there were other paths: a fleet of logistic support ships, for example. Not that it would keep the stains off your hands once combat started, but at least they would be less. And you should have been aware, since the beggining, that a fleet of military vessels entering Gallente sovereign space would end in bloodshed, so you chose to proceed and join the fleet knowing such was the probable fate it would face. And do note that your oath says:
Elsebeth Rhiannon wrote: I will bear arms on behalf of the Minmatar Republic in times of war, and will perform civil service on its behalf in times of peace.
You are at war with us, not with the Federation. Thus, for that operation, those were not times of war. You should have fallen to civil service. So, I'm afraid you, and those who followed you, are guilty of agression with knowledge. You had the chance to choose, not to follow orders or not (which, obviously, is no choice, once in the command structure you stay in the command structure), but to join or not a fleet that is going to start a combat, possibly ignite conflicts that can even lead up to a potential war. You chose to join such a fleet, and I suppose you probably followed the Republic Navy with the best fits for combat you had.
Thus, you are guilty: you knew you were going into combat, and you proceeded. You knew you were going to attack the Federation, and you proceeded. Your oath doesn't justify it. I understand loyalty to your faction, I do, but this is the only justification you have left. And yours is a faction known for starting wars and conflicts.
And if I'm replying to captain Rhiannon's post is only because she's clearer on the subject. All the rest are as guilty. You all carry now a burden for which there is no solution, no absolution, no making up for.
Sepherim Catillah
Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris Liuteneant
Ex-Imperial Navy Imperator Commander |
Elsebeth Rhiannon
Gradient
Electus Matari
386
|
Posted - 2013.05.08 14:52:00 -
[47] - Quote
I never denied guilt, and I never tried to claim that I am innocent, just because I went into battle due to an oath of loyalty rather than supporting the action.
All you trying to argue with me in order to prove me wrong: you are wasting good effort on me. I am aware of all the points you could possibly make.
Elsebeth |
Sepherim
PIE Inc.
Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
416
|
Posted - 2013.05.08 14:55:00 -
[48] - Quote
I'm not arguing you are wrong. I would have done the same had it been an Amarr Navy action instead of a Minmatarr one. Just saying that "following orders" only comes after joining a fleet, the guilt comes from joining that fleet.
Sepherim Catillah
Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris Liuteneant
Ex-Imperial Navy Imperator Commander |
Adreena Madeveda
Re-Awakened Technologies Inc
118
|
Posted - 2013.05.08 16:08:00 -
[49] - Quote
Knowing the Republic Fleet was preparing to enter the Federation, I had little hope it would end well. I knew the Republic wasn't in her right doing so.
I was pretty certain Thousand-Eyes Grideris would assemble one of his juggerfleet. Pretty certain that this fleet's canons would be pointed at the Republic ships if, when **** hit the fan.
I could have ignored the call : I didn't. I could have left Elsebeth's fleet : I didn't. Let the Fleet run into a wall of fire and minding my own business was probably the right thing to do... well, in that case I'd rather being blamed for things I've done than being praised for staying idle.
...................\o\
/o/................... |
Lyn Farel
Kitzless
495
|
Posted - 2013.05.08 16:30:00 -
[50] - Quote
Huh ? What kind of logic is that ? |
Adreena Madeveda
Re-Awakened Technologies Inc
120
|
Posted - 2013.05.08 16:32:00 -
[51] - Quote
Lyn Farel wrote:Huh ? What kind of logic is that ?
Mine.
...................\o\
/o/................... |
darmwand
Repo.
117
|
Posted - 2013.05.08 17:45:00 -
[52] - Quote
With allies like these, who needs the Squid.
Does anyone really believe that acts like this one are going to convince the Federation to extradite one of their own citizens, a citizen who deserves a fair trial rather than a lynch mob, to a bunch of (apparently) raving lunatics? To people whose blind rage and blood-thirst drives them to kill tens of thousands of allied soldiers simply because they cannot wait for justice?
I can only hope that my government realizes that these were the actions of a bunch of cowards that do not represent the Minmatar people. Neither side can afford a war, not with the other empires just waiting for a chance to hop in, not in the name of somebody who would not ever have wanted this and most certainly not over an incident that would most likely have long been settled had it not been for the constant threats and harassments by your leaders.
darmwand
Repossession Agent
http://www.repo-corp.net/
Recruitment is OPEN |
Calathorn Virpio
Golden Construction Inc.
Legacy Rising
319
|
Posted - 2013.05.08 18:30:00 -
[53] - Quote
Hadrian Tivianne wrote:I can say with a certainty that the desire to avoid conflict was just as strong with the fleets on the Gallente side. it should never have gotten as far as it did, the outcome is nothing short of a tragedy.
as a caldari, i sat back and watched th.....oh who am i kidding, i KM whored onto the dread deaths on BOTH sides
BRING BACK THE JUKEBOX
I attended the School of Hard Nocks, the only place you will ever learn anything of value, sadly most Americans never meet the requirments to attend
|
Calathorn Virpio
Golden Construction Inc.
Legacy Rising
319
|
Posted - 2013.05.08 18:31:00 -
[54] - Quote
Adreena Madeveda wrote:Knowing the Republic Fleet was preparing to enter the Federation, I had little hope it would end well. I knew the Republic wasn't in her right doing so.
I was pretty certain Thousand-Eyes Grideris would assemble one of his juggerfleet. Pretty certain that this fleet's canons would be pointed at the Republic ships if, when **** hit the fan.
I could have ignored the call : I didn't. I could have left Elsebeth's fleet : I didn't. Let the Fleet run into a wall of fire and minding my own business was probably the right thing to do... well, in that case I'd rather being blamed for things I've done than being praised for staying idle.
he needs this as another title.
also, falcon screwed with his plans, so he basically ended up siding with the gallente
BRING BACK THE JUKEBOX
I attended the School of Hard Nocks, the only place you will ever learn anything of value, sadly most Americans never meet the requirments to attend
|
Altaen
Calamitous-Intent
48
|
Posted - 2013.05.08 19:17:00 -
[55] - Quote
Graceful as ever, Else.
But it might be wise for all of the pilots of the Electus and others loyal to the Tribes to slow down somewhat on how strongly you disagree with orders that came, as you were told, "from the top."
It is fair to disagree with those orders based on how much information you have presently, but it should go without saying that that you may not have as much information as those at the top.
You are presently feeling wrong about opening fire on those you presently consider to be allies, but it might just be that a time will come in the future that you will realize that a higher commander with a broader set of intel knew exactly what they were doing when they gave those orders.
There are better uses for your energy than public disagreement with the decisions of the Sanmatar. It is only in the last 90 days that the first Tribal Council in a thousand years met, and a reaffirmation of Tribal Unity was made. Our government is newly reborn, and yet you are quick to stand against their decisions, rather than behind them.
I'm certainly no proponent of blind institutional faith, and I would never suggest that anyone should be. You know well my opinions of the RSS and their methods, for example...but I do think there is room to let things unfold somewhat before jumping to conclusions.
For the sake of Tribal strength I'd hope to see at least a sliver of the benefit of a doubt.
On a lighter note...I don't suppose you'd put in a good word for me regarding who I'd need to bribe to get a cyno jammer offlined for a moment or two, would you? Some very useful friends you made during this fleet if they've got that capability. Maybe we could do something similar in hostile space sometime, with shiny golden targets? I'm pretty sure I could arrange for a capital fleet that would get somewhat more decisive results... |
Elsebeth Rhiannon
Gradient
Electus Matari
407
|
Posted - 2013.05.08 19:52:00 -
[56] - Quote
Altaen;
If new information surfaces, we will naturally revise our statements in its light.
You will notice I explicitly said that not knowing enough of the situation and its consequences, we cannot guarantee anything about future EM operations.
As to the rest of your suggestions, go **** yourself.
Else |
Altaen
Calamitous-Intent
49
|
Posted - 2013.05.08 20:06:00 -
[57] - Quote
Elsebeth Rhiannon wrote:
As to the rest of your suggestions, go **** yourself.
Else
What manners...
Love you, mean it, and I'll be here when our people really need me, so keep in touch.
The time for pragmatism to outweigh idealism may be closer than we think. |
Tarryn Nightstorm
Hellstar Towing and Recovery
748
|
Posted - 2013.05.08 20:07:00 -
[58] - Quote
Gosakumori Noh wrote: [...]
What could possibly be more inappropriate? It would be astounding - save for the fact we are talking about the most superficial, vapid, and self-absorbed members of the pod community.
Well...It takes one to know one, eh?
Meta-gaming for carebears:
Whine on the forums like a little ***** until CCP gets sick of you and hands you everything you ask for just to shut you up. |
Grideris
Fleet Coordination Commission
Fleet Coordination Coalition
633
|
Posted - 2013.05.08 20:40:00 -
[59] - Quote
Adreena Madeveda wrote:Knowing the Republic Fleet was preparing to enter the Federation, I had little hope it would end well. I knew the Republic wasn't in her right doing so.
I was pretty certain Thousand-Eyes Grideris would assemble one of his juggerfleet. Pretty certain that this fleet's canons would be pointed at the Republic ships if, when **** hit the fan.
I could have ignored the call : I didn't. I could have left Elsebeth's fleet : I didn't. Let the Fleet run into a wall of fire and minding my own business was probably the right thing to do... well, in that case I'd rather being blamed for things I've done than being praised for staying idle.
Thousand-Eyes Grideris? That's a new one. Curious how that one came about.
The fleet's original orders and intention was to force both fleets to a standstill using electronic warfare. Unfortunately, that wasn't an option with Dreadnoughts on the field. And yes, they did get pointed at the Republic fleet because let's be honest; it's Federation space they were in. Had it been the other way around with the Federation invading Republic space, we would have been firing upon the Moroses instead.
http://www.dust514.org - the unofficial forum for everything DUST 514
http://www.dust514base.com - the blog site with everything else DUST 514 you need
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ISD LackOfFaith
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
516
|
Posted - 2013.05.08 20:47:00 -
[60] - Quote
I have removed a transmission from this thread as it was largely incomprehensible static. Please check and maintain your transponders, guys.
((OOC: Please keep IGS posts in character. Note that CCP developers do not exist as in-character entites.))
ISD LackOfFaith
Lieutenant
Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs)
Interstellar Services Department |
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