So what you're saying is though you knew the order to fire was wrong, you did it anyway, and now you criticise the order you voluntarily followed?

You aided and assisted a hostile invasion fleet against the allies of the Republic, and broke strict terms of the Yulai convention. Your actions have likely put unnecessary strain on an alliance already battered by pointless sabre ratting and politicking over this shooter.

And it seems that a woman who spent her life campaigning for peace will be remembered with her death leading to a pointless f##king bloodbath. You made your own choice today, the pilots with you did the same.


I only hope that lessons can be learned from today today, and learned in time to repair this battered relationship and find a peaceful resolution to the situation at hand.

For those of us who were there, to do nothing would have been equally disrespectful to her memory.

You remember what she did concerning Karishal Muritor, right ?

It included assassinating their warmongering leader, abandoning their whole fleet in the process.

Today at about 16:00 I and some other known loyalists received a request from the Republic Fleet to assist in an operation to forcibly extradite the shooter of Karin Midular from Federation care. The leader of the operation was given as General Aruko Aruman of the Republic Fleet; point of contact was Heder Elislar. I stated my opinion that I thought the operation was madness and that the Fleet should stand down, but under what for me counts as orders gathered a patrol force to support.

I was at no point given further intel about the exact plans of the Fleet. I went into Bei with the goal of coming out of this without having to engage and without betraying my oath to the Minmatar Republic. I failed in the first.

At about 20:00 local a Republic Fleet capital wing entered Colelie and demanded passage further. Federation Navy capital wing denied. Words were exchanged. Both in public and in private I and others from Electus Matari pleaded for the Republic Fleet to stand down, but this was in vain. When the Republic Fleet engaged, I was told by the officers in charge of the capitals that this was under orders "from the top".

Being an oath-bound warrior of the Republic I could personally see no other option than to follow the Fleet. I did not agree with the order and I agree with our current leadership even less, but to refuse simply because I found the order disagreeable would have gone against everything I have spoken for during my career in space.

I gave the order to the EM fleet to engage; the pilots with me should not be blamed.

We lost.

To whom it may concern: Electus Matari does not agree with this course of action. This is not the way to treat our allies. This is not the way to win the war with the real enemy. This is not the way to honor the legacy of the Ray. We followed our leaders now, but we warn you to remember that you can only lead free people to where they are willing to follow. The Matari people in space have always been divided into two: those who cherish war for the sake of honor and emotion, and those who rather avoid it for the sake of long-turn survival of our people. When the Ray was in charge, she managed to balance the two for a long time. The "Sanmatar" now needs to do the same.

Elsebeth Rhiannon
Director, Gradient
Diplomat, Electus Matari

You seem to be confused.

It would be astounding - save for the fact we are talking about the most superficial, vapid, and self-absorbed members of the pod community.

Like yourself.

Can you imagine being a fly on the wall of the Imperial Court today?

Answers to some questions and concerns:

1) I was not "just following orders". I made a choice to follow the chain of command I have willingly taken an oath to. Those are two different things and if you are unable to grasp the difference, I really have nothing further to say to you

2) If I could do it over again, I would make the same choice. I think the decision to cross the border with force was dead wrong, but for me, personally, to bail out at the first unpleasant order I disagree with would make the above oath completely meaningless.

3) I called myself 'an oath-sworn warrior'. Others used the world soldier, which is indeed a misnomer. I am not part of the military, I am an indie capsuleer. I could have refused without facing court-martial and I was under no personal duress of any kind.

4) I wish I could say this was definitely the last time you will see Electus Matari forces on a similar operation. I cannot, however. Not only can I not guarantee we will not be there if the Republic leadership decides to continue this madness, but also what has been started now has a chance to escalate so that we will in reality not have a choice.

I am sorry I cannot be more reassuring.

Elsebeth

I would have abandoned the fleet.

I will not abandon my boss, friends, and relatives.

You seem to be confused. My friends, boss, and relatives werent on Naglfars.

1) I was not "just following orders". I made a choice to follow the chain of command I have willingly taken an oath to. Those are two different things and if you are unable to grasp the difference, I really have nothing further to say to you

If anyone got in the way of vengeance against one who has murdered my family they would be treated in like fashion.

And for you who harp on about how Karin Midular worked for peace with the Amarr and Ammatar and tried to institute a Gallente-style democracy in the Republic - remember where that got her and the Republic.

She'd had her eyes opened since then.

Electus Matari - fly free

I will bear arms on behalf of the Minmatar Republic in times of war, and will perform civil service on its behalf in times of peace.

Huh ? What kind of logic is that ?

I can say with a certainty that the desire to avoid conflict was just as strong with the fleets on the Gallente side. it should never have gotten as far as it did, the outcome is nothing short of a tragedy.

Knowing the Republic Fleet was preparing to enter the Federation, I had little hope it would end well. I knew the Republic wasn't in her right doing so.

I was pretty certain Thousand-Eyes Grideris would assemble one of his juggerfleet. Pretty certain that this fleet's canons would be pointed at the Republic ships if, when **** hit the fan.

I could have ignored the call : I didn't. I could have left Elsebeth's fleet : I didn't. Let the Fleet run into a wall of fire and minding my own business was probably the right thing to do... well, in that case I'd rather being blamed for things I've done than being praised for staying idle.

As to the rest of your suggestions, go **** yourself.

Else

[...]

What could possibly be more inappropriate? It would be astounding - save for the fact we are talking about the most superficial, vapid, and self-absorbed members of the pod community.

Knowing the Republic Fleet was preparing to enter the Federation, I had little hope it would end well. I knew the Republic wasn't in her right doing so.

I was pretty certain Thousand-Eyes Grideris would assemble one of his juggerfleet. Pretty certain that this fleet's canons would be pointed at the Republic ships if, when **** hit the fan.

I could have ignored the call : I didn't. I could have left Elsebeth's fleet : I didn't. Let the Fleet run into a wall of fire and minding my own business was probably the right thing to do... well, in that case I'd rather being blamed for things I've done than being praised for staying idle.

There are better uses for your energy than public disagreement with the decisions of the Sanmatar.

Our government is newly reborn, and yet you are quick to stand against their decisions, rather than behind them.

"Our"? Cute.

Our government

You're talking about the Republic. Slight difference between that and the Tribes. I somehow doubt what you do in any way contributes to the security of "our" government. I cannot comment on your contributions to the Vherokior people.

Answers to some questions and concerns:

1) I was not "just following orders". I made a choice to follow the chain of command I have willingly taken an oath to. Those are two different things and if you are unable to grasp the difference, I really have nothing further to say to you

I voice my disagreement with the Federal decisions, but if it is my call, I will not start a war over them.

I made a choice to follow the chain of command

There is no reason why they can not hand over a terrorist.

There it is. We can't be quite as stupid as the Matari have just been. Some comfort, there.

Pretty sure you can be, and in fact, routinely are.

Oh? Tell me little miss who put the "sham" in "shaman," what champion of peace and cultural outreach should the Empire sacrifice to pull even with your "civilization?" Poor Midular - born a religious leader among a people who more commonly measure spiritual depth by the ink splattered on their pretty little faces.

You seem to have mistaken the Ray of Matar with Vuld Haupt.

Is that so, doll?

Graceful as ever, Else.

But it might be wise for all of the pilots of the Electus and others loyal to the Tribes to slow down somewhat on how strongly you disagree with orders that came, as you were told, "from the top."
It is fair to disagree with those orders based on how much information you have presently, but it should go without saying that that you may not have as much information as those at the top.
You are presently feeling wrong about opening fire on those you presently consider to be allies, but it might just be that a time will come in the future that you will realize that a higher commander with a broader set of intel knew exactly what they were doing when they gave those orders.
There are better uses for your energy than public disagreement with the decisions of the Sanmatar. It is only in the last 90 days that the first Tribal Council in a thousand years met, and a reaffirmation of Tribal Unity was made. Our government is newly reborn, and yet you are quick to stand against their decisions, rather than behind them.
I'm certainly no proponent of blind institutional faith, and I would never suggest that anyone should be. You know well my opinions of the RSS and their methods, for example...but I do think there is room to let things unfold somewhat before jumping to conclusions.
For the sake of Tribal strength I'd hope to see at least a sliver of the benefit of a doubt.

The recent Tribal Council made them one and the same. Unification. I'm not so certain "Republic" is an accurate descriptor for this reborn government. But I do know which authority gave the EM-led fleet the order to engage in Colelie, and I'd certainly have called it Tribal before I'd have called it government, even if they are one and the same these days.

It is so, girl.

Ah, splendid! So let's see if I have the idiot perspective down correctly:

Right. So as I said, spiritual depth determined by ink splattered on pretty little faces.

Ah, splendid! So let's see if I have the idiot perspective down correctly...

Wrong, wrong, wrong.

Vuld Haupt is the Sebiestor Tribes popular spiritual leader (I do not revere him as such), and chosen not due to his Voluval. I only point you to any synopsis of his biography if you're curious as to what about him lends to his 'spiritual depth'.

Goodness dear, pay attention, I know you are not this dim.

Vagary.

No, child. Wrong still! Now act not so supercilious whilst flaunting such a grasping understanding of our late Ray of Matar.

Our "religion" does not back us into a corner with dogmatism and the insane droolings of prophets. Our shamans -- of which Ava is an honoured member -- give us advice and guidance, but do not rule over us in the tyrannical way the citizens of the Empire seem to crave.

I leave for about a week and it seems space is exploding all around us. With one fleet gone, I just hope the Amarr don't get any wise ideas.

At the risk of revealing some intel on our operational capacity: yes, we could.

The Voluval looks perfectly like spiritual, dogmatic tyranny to me. To my eyes, it is mostly a petty matter of pots and kettles here.

An illegal order is one which does not need to be obeyed.

This is something that the Electus Matari chose to ignore.

You really don't have a clue, do you? What's tyrannical about the Voluval? Please enlighten us.

You should quit pretending to be some kind of rational voice and wear your bias towards the Empire proudly. You're not fooling anyone. Those who regularly read your little snipes understands and personal attacks know differently.

As for the Voluval, some might say that letting marks dictate, or at least, point the way to go for a living is pretty tyrannical.

You really don't have a clue, do you? What's tyrannical about the Voluval? Please enlighten us.

You should quit pretending to be some kind of rational voice and wear your bias towards the Empire proudly. You're not fooling anyone. Those who regularly read your little snipes understands and personal attacks know differently.

You really don't have a clue, do you? What's tyrannical about the Voluval? Please enlighten us.

So you'll be disobeying orders from your authorities if you feel them to be illegal then Blake? Oh wait, that can't happen in your Empire since all orders come from your god and are vetted by the Theology Council, right?

I ask you to cast your mind back several years to when fleets led by myself assisted in the bringing to justice of an Imperial heir who had issued illegal orders to his forces.

At the risk of revealing some intel on our operational capacity: yes, we could.

On to the sublime:



and



Emphasis in the original oh dear Heavens it doesn't get better than that... all right, three of my Sebboi Plushies are better than that, but just barely. Tears of joy.

On to poor Witch Midular:

As James pointed out elsewhere more politely, in life, the Matari "civilization" reviled her for being a woman of peace.

I ask you to cast your mind back several years to when fleets led by myself assisted in the bringing to justice of an Imperial heir who had issued illegal orders to his forces.

You see, the Empire has a complex system of checks and balances to ensure that it's difficult for people to overstep their authority, and when they do they are chastised accordingly.

This is different to the Republic, which is increasingly adopting a system of "What Shakor says, goes"

Indeed, the Empire has many checks and balances to ensure that its laws and traditions are respected.

Traditions such as Godflesh. I'm sure all would agree such laws are sacrosanct, even to one such as the Empress.

You do realize those two statements are not actually contradictory, right?

It was "her call" whether to fire. She called it. Contradiction established. Weasel around all you want, dear. The more you do, the more times I get to observe that even an alliance of halfwits doesn't add up to a full wit.

The Republic Fleet did, however, and at that point it was no longer "my call", but theirs: a call I chose to respond to.

Amarrians crapping up an EM thread and casting accusations and insults....

So, business as usual, then?

A weaseling distinction without a difference, doll. It was your call, and you made it. In making it, you not only choose not to take up Midular's mantle of "Rise Above, Move Beyond" (tangent: has little "shaman" sweet pea found the spiritual message in that, yet?) but in fact to tear it into shreds. How appropriate, all things considered.

Let's face it: you and your hypocritical band of halfwits just wanted to blow things up. Nothing wrong with that, dear. Happens all the time. You'd have been better off admitting as much from the start. These rationalizations are taking you a bit out of your depth.

I'll say this one last time, though I doubt it'll succeed at getting into that vapid brain of yours....

Your insipid, mealy-mouthed rationalizations only serve to provide me with additional opportunities to point out that Electus Matari is a Band of Hypocritical Halfwits. How is it possible that you haven't figured that out yet? Ah, yes. You're an idiot, too.

Kind of a thing with you lot, eh?

Oh look, my prediction was right. It didn't get into that vapid little brain of yours.

The Moros Class Dreadnaughts do Outclass our Nagfler class, but they have a weakness the Nag does not, why was there no "Nuet" fit battleships on standby to shut down the Moros's, or is it Mori, offensive capability?

The Moros Class Dreadnaughts do Outclass our Nagfler class, but they have a weakness the Nag does not, why was there no "Nuet" fit battleships on standby to shut down the Moros's, or is it Mori, offensive capability?

As for Illegal orders Mr Blake, Must I bring up some from my time under the Empire? Some of which was relayed by you intact.

The Republic fleet was not equipped for the battle they engaged in.

Why then, did they engage?

That is the 50,000 isk question.

We all get fracked up orders, but as warriors and soldiers "Ours not to make reply, Ours not to question why, ours but to do and die..."

For common soldiers, yes. For officers, no.

In what bizarre world is a fleet commander expected to unquestioningly follow orders?

Your explanation doesn't change my point, if anything it reinforces it.

You* had a choice, you had the choice to refuse, to point out the folly of what was a stupid idea. You had the chance to make a stand and point out what they were suggesting was a step too far, you had the chance to put doubt in their mind as to the logical nature of their actions.

You had a chance to prevent it in your hands, and you chose not to.






* I will note "you" here is not the personal, but toward the organisation. Except for whoever made the call, that person can take credit for the choice made.

I think you completely missed the point.

Ah, this again. And look, the same tired accusations and holier than thou tripe are being thrown around.



I was second in command of the Electus Matari fleet in Coleile.

Command fell to me, once Elsebeth Rhiannon's vessel was destroyed.

No one "ordered" me to remain on the field. I made that decision to keep my fleet in the fight, and gave the order to my fleet to continue the engagement.

Electus Matari DID receive very direct orders from the Fleet to assist in the operation. It was not my decision to follow those orders, though, had I been in overall command from the beginning, I would have done no differently than my superior.

I regret my part in that attack, and I wish none of us had been there. We were. It is past.

If the situation repeated itself? I would still stand and fight alongside my brothers and sisters.

We were well aware that the attack was a blunder, and that the battle was a losing proposition. We could either abandon our kin, many of whom were NOT in a position to choose their fate, the normal crew aboard the vessels involved, or we could stand beside them.

We chose to follow that order, because it was the only real "choice".

Enjoy the view from your unassailable ivory towers. No one gives a damn about your condemnation. Have a nice day.

Elsebeth is taking a well deserved break, and tending to the many duties that have befallen those within our Tribe - like her - who must cope with the fallout of Midular's death.

All complaints/questions/comments can be directed to... well, you can shove them, to be honest.

re-+gret
[ri-gret] verb, re-+gret-+ted, re-+gret-+ting, noun
verb (used with object)
1. to feel remorse for (an act, fault, disappointment, etc.): He no sooner spoke than he regretted it.

You do not feel regret, pilot. Not if you would do the same thing over again. Regret implies that you see that you did something wrong and would change it if you could.

I do not know very much about Matari honour, and will not pretend to speak on their feelings. But to me, at least, the pointed part of honour is to be driven to take an action which one may regret. One may take this action again, still, should the same situation arise once more, and the remorse will be just as valid and heartfelt.

This is something I think the honourable person deeply understands. My heart goes out to you Matari who were driven by love of kin and a rashly-acting Chief to take an action you despised. It is my hope that your friends in the Federation can learn why you took this action, and why you would take it again. That understanding will be the key to rebuilding trust and your alliance, both.

I had a choice, I outright said I did.

We chose to follow that order, because it was the only real "choice".

The revered Admiral was ordered to betray her kin by destroying the homeworld of the Caldari people. She chose to stand with her people, as was honourable and just. She died in the defense of her people.

The brave warriors of Electus Matari were posed with the choice of abandoning their kin to face the Moros or fighting alongside them, doomed though they might be for engaging and damned thought that they might be for engaging their allies. They chose to stand with their people, as was honourable and just. They died in the defense of their people.

They are not perfectly analogous, but they are analogous enough that I think I understand. I hope that you can understand also.

You are all reeeeally missing the point here.

I had a choice, I outright said I did.

I followed the order, and pressed on the attack, because it was the least distasteful option available to me at the time. I would not abandon my kin to their deaths, regardless of what any of you think of me. I dont want your approval.

Oh, the whole cluster has disdain for me, because I didnt do what they would do. Woe is me.

I love how people put words in my mouth and emotions in my heart, and have NO concept of why me, Elsebeth, and others participated in the attack anyway.

I have given my reasons. The fact that you do not accept them really isnt my problem.

Ah Elsebeth, after all these years I find you facing a bitter pill from the Republic I now serve. How things change yet remain the same.

I feel for you in this. I once faced an order I could not in good conscience follow, I decided to throw in my lot with an idealistic Fleet Commander by the name of Karishal Muritor. I'm sure you recollect those days. Perhaps you now understand the choices and actions I took did not come lightly.

I do not envy you the position you find yourself in. As a Matari you must do what is right for the tribe and the Elders, that is our nature. Exactly what that right action is? That is something you must decide, that is the hard part.

To the rest of you: I have said what I have to say on this matter. I do not think I need to justify myself to the IGS. What I've done, I've done, and actions speak louder than words.

Elsebeth

Which is exactly why I continue to argue for a dissolution of the Republic-Federation alliance.