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Nate Armstrong Aegis Coalition Logistics 0	Posted - 2013.05.09 03:24:00 - [1] - Quote Ok. I have been doing level 4 missions with my CRN for quite awhile assuming it was one of the better/best mission ships. I was in a discussion with a corp mate and he said a nightmare would be a HUGE upgrade. I am posting here to see if there is any validation to his comment. I don't know if I haven't search enough but I haven't seen too much information on a lvl 4 mission nightmare. Reason im considering switching though is because I also do incursions and we all know missile boats don't do well there. Am at the point where I can sell my CRN for a nightmare but I want to be able to keep my ability to run level 4 missions easily. The only reason I would switch is to have a better 'universal' ship. I currently mission in the Khanid Region Any fits for the nightmare? What are the suggested skills? I have heard they are VERY cap hungry. I'm not familiar with lasers much and would have to train for them since all I have are missile skills. Any suggestions/opinions/validation to switching to a nightmare over a CRN to do level 4 missions? Thanks! -Nate
bloodknight2 Talledega Knights PLEASE NOT VIOLENCE OUR BOATS 71	Posted - 2013.05.09 03:30:00 - [2] - Quote Nightmare isn't cap hungry if you manage your cap. Nightmare really shines if you fit faction <3
Nate Armstrong Aegis Coalition Logistics 0	Posted - 2013.05.09 03:53:00 - [3] - Quote bloodknight2 wrote: Nightmare isn't cap hungry if you manage your cap. Nightmare really shines if you fit faction <3 I have decent cap skills. But is it a "upgrade" for missions. I mean even if its the same as the CRN I wouldn't care too much since its so much better then incursions.
Ireland VonVicious Vicious Trading Company 125	Posted - 2013.05.09 04:54:00 - [4] - Quote If you are looking for the best L4 mission ship it's the Rattlesnake.
hellcane Never Back Down 9	Posted - 2013.05.09 05:11:00 - [5] - Quote If you get a lot of missions against em/therm weak rats, NM would be an upgrade.
Caitlyn Tufy Bene Gesserit ChapterHouse Sanctuary Pact 272	Posted - 2013.05.09 07:20:00 - [6] - Quote Here's my suggestion: wait for Odyssey. After it hits, the CNR will get a 30% boost in damage output, becoming pretty much the king of ranged combat in PVE. If you'll still want an alternative, you might want to look for something fast that can punch well up close - a Vindicator or a Machariel for instance - to complement the CNR.
Bi-Mi Lansatha The Scope Gallente Federation 108	Posted - 2013.05.09 08:42:00 - [7] - Quote Caitlyn Tufy wrote: Here's my suggestion: wait for Odyssey. After it hits, the CNR will get a 30% boost in damage output, becoming pretty much the king of ranged combat in PVE. If you'll still want an alternative, you might want to look for something fast that can punch well up close - a Vindicator or a Machariel for instance - to complement the CNR. This.
Goldiiee Tax and War Haven 369	Posted - 2013.05.09 09:31:00 - [8] - Quote I used a NM for missions and Incursions till I finished T2 gun f\or the Mach. And yes it was an excellent mission boat even with the Incursion rigs on it.... of course it could have been a matter of to much ISK, but here is the Pulse fit. [Nightmare, SatanClause Pulse] 4x Mega Pulse Laser II (Imperial Navy Multifrequency L) Imperial Navy Heavy Nosferatu Auto Targeting System II 2x Gistum A-Type Adaptive Invulnerability Field Gist X-Type X-Large Shield Booster Shadow Serpentis Sensor Booster Shadow Serpentis Tracking Computer (Optimal Range Script) Heavy Capacitor Booster II (Navy Cap Booster 800) Gist X-Type 100MN Microwarpdrive Damage Control II 4x Imperial Navy Heat Sink Large Anti-EM Screen Reinforcer II Large Core Defense Field Extender II Large Energy Discharge Elutriation II 5x Warrior II 5x Hammerhead II 1x Scorch L 1x Conflagration L 1x Imperial Navy Multifrequency L 1x Imperial Navy Microwave L 1x Imperial Navy Infrared L 1x Dark Blood Xray L 1x Imperial Navy Gamma L [Statistics - Goldiiee] Effective HP: 115,668 (Eve: 101,612) Tank Ability: 904.27 DPS Capacitor (Stable at 91.42%) Volley Damage: 4,347.11 DPS: 1,110.52 Fun and 'easy button' for LVL-4 missions. You my friend,-ádefy the whole theory of natural selection.
Gimme more Cynos Science and Trade Institute Caldari State 22	Posted - 2013.05.09 09:32:00 - [9] - Quote Nightmare won't beat CNR once Odyseey hits. CNR not only gets ~ 30% moar damage, the 50 calibration faction-ships will get on top of it will make it possible to fit 2x Rigor II and 1x Rigor I :) Yes, Nightmare is the better incursion-boat and the better mission boat against EM/THERM - missions, but it still can't beat the CNR's allround-capabilitys. If you want to have a solo lv 4 and incursion pwnmobile, train for the mach.
Goldiiee Tax and War Haven 369	Posted - 2013.05.09 09:37:00 - [10] - Quote Gimme more Cynos wrote: Nightmare won't beat CNR once Odyseey hits. CNR not only gets ~ 30% moar damage, the 50 calibration faction-ships will get on top of it will make it possible to fit 2x Rigor II and 1x Rigor I :) Yes, Nightmare is the better incursion-boat and the better mission boat against EM/THERM - missions, but it still can't beat the CNR's allround-capabilitys. If you want to have a solo lv 4 and incursion pwnmobile, train for the mach. ^^ this You my friend,-ádefy the whole theory of natural selection.

Dato Koppla Rage of Inferno Malefic Motives 180	Posted - 2013.05.09 11:07:00 - [11] - Quote Goldiiee wrote: I used a NM for missions and Incursions till I finished T2 gun f\or the Mach. And yes it was an excellent mission boat even with the Incursion rigs on it.... of course it could have been a matter of to much ISK, but here is the Pulse fit. [Nightmare, SatanClause Pulse] 4x Mega Pulse Laser II (Imperial Navy Multifrequency L) Imperial Navy Heavy Nosferatu Auto Targeting System II 2x Gistum A-Type Adaptive Invulnerability Field Gist X-Type X-Large Shield Booster Shadow Serpentis Sensor Booster Shadow Serpentis Tracking Computer (Optimal Range Script) Heavy Capacitor Booster II (Navy Cap Booster 800) Gist X-Type 100MN Microwarpdrive Damage Control II 4x Imperial Navy Heat Sink Large Anti-EM Screen Reinforcer II Large Core Defense Field Extender II Large Energy Discharge Elutriation II 5x Warrior II 5x Hammerhead II 1x Scorch L 1x Conflagration L 1x Imperial Navy Multifrequency L 1x Imperial Navy Microwave L 1x Imperial Navy Infrared L 1x Dark Blood Xray L 1x Imperial Navy Gamma L [Statistics - Goldiiee] Effective HP: 115,668 (Eve: 101,612) Tank Ability: 904.27 DPS Capacitor (Stable at 91.42%) Volley Damage: 4,347.11 DPS: 1,110.52 Fun and 'easy button' for LVL-4 missions. Tach fit is better for missions. This lacks range on some missions and even though you can burn there in an MWD Tachs deal 1k damage to 45+45km so it's pretty hard to beat.
Goldiiee Tax and War Haven 370	Posted - 2013.05.09 12:54:00 - [12] - Quote Dato Koppla wrote: Tach fit is better for missions. This lacks range on some missions and even though you can burn there in an MWD Tachs deal 1k damage to 45+45km so it's pretty hard to beat. Yeah when I use Tachs I drop some tank, pulses need a little more tank for the up-close quickness of it all, Tachs are more of a pick the closest rat and pop it strategy. You my friend,-ádefy the whole theory of natural selection.
Cipher Jones The Thomas Edwards Taco Tuesday All Stars 634	Posted - 2013.05.09 18:17:00 - [13] - Quote Gimme more Cynos wrote: Nightmare won't beat CNR once Odyseey hits. CNR not only gets ~ 30% moar damage, the 50 calibration faction-ships will get on top of it will make it possible to fit 2x Rigor II and 1x Rigor I :) Yes, Nightmare is the better incursion-boat and the better mission boat against EM/THERM - missions, but it still can't beat the CNR's allround-capabilitys. If you want to have a solo lv 4 and incursion pwnmobile, train for the mach. I +1'd that but disagree about after Oddesy. I ran missions with a CNR and Mach and the mach beats the CNR by more than 30% ISK/hr, and raw DPS does not scale proportionally to income. In the region you are in, the NM will be the best even after Oddesy, but the Mach will still be the best all around IMHO. NM VERY close second. The difference is that the mach is better against Sanshas than the NM is against Angels. As far as CNR not being good for incursions, it depends on which ones you fly. It is a better snipe ship than the mach, thats been tested extensively. The reason the mach is more popular, is that if you're not flying assaults, you can simply switch guns instead of ships. Its a pain in the ass to bring 2 ships from incursion to incursion. I am comparing faction fits on all 3 for the record. They are all "uber" ships and do not shine unless they are fit properly. From: Tommas De'Wins To: Cipher Jones Dude :) I got massives Basi hahahahahahaha
Cage Man 202	Posted - 2013.05.09 20:04:00 - [14] - Quote Bi-Mi Lansatha wrote: Caitlyn Tufy wrote: Here's my suggestion: wait for Odyssey. After it hits, the CNR will get a 30% boost in damage output, becoming pretty much the king of ranged combat in PVE. If you'll still want an alternative, you might want to look for something fast that can punch well up close - a Vindicator or a Machariel for instance - to complement the CNR. This. It also gets a 10% explosion radius increase. Being king is not about paper dps. In my NM I would have insta popped almost every single frig that is over 20km away, with 1 turret per frig, cruisers and BC die almost as quickly.. The NM will then kill a BS at the same speed a golem does, at further ranges.. its all about applied dps.. you will not be able to do this with a CNR.. no matter how much damage bonus it gets.. The NM will also reach out easily to over 120km... so range really is not an issue. If lasers could switch damage types I would probably never use my mach. If you worried about cap management.. I hear passive drakes are pretty good with that :) Best is to go on to the test server and see for yourself.. EDIT--- Just noticed no Paikis comments yet??? he normally jump on these NM discussions too.. . Oh PLEASE!!! CCP Fozzie Can I haz a Navy moa.......
Paikis Vapour Holdings 804	Posted - 2013.05.10 04:48:00 - [15] - Quote Cage Man wrote: EDIT--- Just noticed no Paikis comments yet??? he normally jump on these NM discussions too.. . I was trying to be good! >.< Nate Armstrong wrote: Any suggestions/opinions/validation to switching to a nightmare over a CRN to do level 4 missions? Do it. Even with meta4 guns it will outperform the CNR by a fair margin. It will perform acceptably against everything that isn't Angels, although it really only shines against Drones, Sansha and Blood Raiders. Against those 3 factions it is the best ship in the game. I personally went from running missions in a cruise CNR to the Nightmare and I've never looked back. bloodknight2 wrote: Nightmare isn't cap hungry if you manage your cap. Nightmare really shines if you fit faction <3 Faction guns will ease the cap burden significantly. T2 Tachyons will drain your cap so fast your head will spin.
Osiris Andras Intergalactic Space Maoris 7	Posted - 2013.05.10 05:00:00 - [16] - Quote OP: If you have zero laser skills and only average cap management skills I can't see it being worth your while to train for the NM. I don't have personal experience with the NM due to a current lack of funds, but I have done a lot of research on it - it is out there, just have to look. Yes - the NM is redonkulous for Incursions and against EM/Therm-weak rats like you are facing but it does need a lot of SP to properly back it up. (Amarr + Caldari combo is one of the least synergystic imo) If you do decide to get a NM, bling it up and make it worth your while (temper with "don't fly what you can't afford to lose" etc etc). Use tachys, not pulses - and if you have it already, train long range targetting to at least IV, even though it isn't a pre-req on the guns.
Bi-Mi Lansatha The Scope Gallente Federation 116	Posted - 2013.05.10 05:13:00 - [17] - Quote Cage Man wrote: It also gets a 10% explosion radius increase... The CNR is also getting a "rigging increase". So now the standard will probably be two Rigor IIs and a Flare II. ..and perhaps a 7th mid slot. Another painter.
Gimme more Cynos Science and Trade Institute Caldari State 23	Posted - 2013.05.10 06:52:00 - [18] - Quote Bi-Mi Lansatha wrote: Cage Man wrote: It also gets a 10% explosion radius increase... The CNR is also getting a "rigging increase". So now the standard will probably be two Rigor IIs and a Flare II. ..and perhaps a 7th mid slot. Another painter. BUUHHHHHHH Use two RIGOR II's and a Rigor I ! :D Anyway, we will see what the CNR does with the nightmare once odysee hits.. ehehehe ;)
Bi-Mi Lansatha The Scope Gallente Federation 116	Posted - 2013.05.10 07:35:00 - [19] - Quote Paikis wrote: ...I personally went from running missions in a cruise CNR to the Nightmare and I've never looked back... Then you sound like the guy I need to talk to. I am just looking for information/opinions on the Nightmare. What are it's strengths and what are it's disadvantages. What needs improvement and why. I have never flown one... and won't anytime soon Perhaps someday.
Bi-Mi Lansatha The Scope Gallente Federation 116	Posted - 2013.05.10 07:37:00 - [20] - Quote Gimme more Cynos wrote: Anyway, we will see what the CNR does with the nightmare once odysee hits.. ehehehe ;) No matter what... the CNR is getting a strong buff. Can't complain about that.

Gimme more Cynos Science and Trade Institute Caldari State 23	Posted - 2013.05.10 10:05:00 - [21] - Quote Bi-Mi Lansatha wrote: what are it's disadvantages For me, it's the mandatory cap-booster. You can't really make it work without, and it allways disgusted me to use those for PvE. I've considered the NM as an option, but cap-boosters weren't worth it for me. Especially because I see the lacks of Turrets while flying with a budd almost every day, and getting called in the night because "SANSHA TD ZOMG, HELP" isn't exactly fun :D Given the Buff to missiles next month, the benefit of flying a NM over CNR (moar damage) shrinks to almost 0. Cruisers will be a one-hit show, while elite-frigs should die within 2-3 volleys. It's okey for flying an allround ship which does perfectly well on every mission. Can't wait for the CNR getting another mid-slot like the raven aswell.. two TP's are going to kick buttz :D
Tsukino Stareine EVE University Ivy League 154	Posted - 2013.05.10 10:11:00 - [22] - Quote Gimme more Cynos wrote: Bi-Mi Lansatha wrote: what are it's disadvantages For me, it's the mandatory cap-booster. You can't really make it work without, and it allways disgusted me to use those for PvE. I've considered the NM as an option, but cap-boosters weren't worth it for me. Especially because I see the lacks of Turrets while flying with a budd almost every day, and getting called in the night because "SANSHA TD ZOMG, HELP" isn't exactly fun :D Given the Buff to missiles next month, the benefit of flying a NM over CNR (moar damage) shrinks to almost 0. Cruisers will be a one-hit show, while elite-frigs should die within 2-3 volleys. It's okey for flying an allround ship which does perfectly well on every mission. Can't wait for the CNR getting another mid-slot like the raven aswell.. two TP's are going to kick buttz :D I don't understand what all the hate is with cap boosters, i mean all it is is just another button to press. It opens up so many more fits than attempting to make something cap stable without it.
Caitlyn Tufy Bene Gesserit ChapterHouse Sanctuary Pact 276	Posted - 2013.05.10 10:35:00 - [23] - Quote Cage Man wrote: It also gets a 10% explosion radius increase. Being king is not about paper dps. In my NM I would have insta popped almost every single frig that is over 20km away, with 1 turret per frig, cruisers and BC die almost as quickly.. The NM will then kill a BS at the same speed a golem does, at further ranges.. its all about applied dps.. you will not be able to do this with a CNR.. no matter how much damage bonus it gets.. The NM will also reach out easily to over 120km... so range really is not an issue. If lasers could switch damage types I would probably never use my mach. If you worried about cap management.. I hear passive drakes are pretty good with that :) Best is to go on to the test server and see for yourself.. In my tests on both Duality and SiSi, that 10% explosion radius increase is barely noticeable (plus we're getting increased rigging space, yay :D), the CNR melts anything at any range. Nightmare will easily reach 120 km, but it'll also deal a third of CNR's damage at that range, without CNR's fully selectable ammunition. Additionally, missiles are completely immune to tracking disruptors and allow the ship to pop a frigate - even a very fast one - at point blank range - at no cap cost at all. Will Nightmare kill frigates faster at range? Yes. But that's about all it'll do better. Tldr: With missile buff, the CNR is a beast, simply unmatched at ranged dps. If anything, I half expect it to get nerfed once navy battleships are going to be tiericided.
Paikis Vapour Holdings 804	Posted - 2013.05.10 10:35:00 - [24] - Quote Gimme more Cynos wrote: Bi-Mi Lansatha wrote: what are it's disadvantages For me, it's the mandatory cap-booster. That's not a disadvantage, that's just you not liking cap boosters. The Nightmare is a slow, squishy, high damage battleship. You need to have good capacitor skills, and I wouldn't get into one without T2 hobgoblins, T2 shield tank and at least meta4 (Imperial Navy is better) Tachyon Beam Lasers with all gunnery supports at IV. The trade off for this, is that it is one of the highest damage battleships available, and the ships that beat it, do so only against Angels, or at closer range. Against Sansha, Blood Raiders and Drones, the Nightmare is the ultimate carebear ship. I also hear it's pretty good in incursions. The disadvantages I've noticed are as follows: - T2 Tachyons burn your cap like you wouldn't believe. You can somewhat fix this with faction guns and implants, but good cap skills are still a must, and yes, you should fit a cap booster... but I fit a cap booster to all my mission ships anyway. Cap booster aversion is a fairly common mental illness among mission runners, make sure you don't contract it. Cap boosters allow you to fit damage mods in your mids and lows instead of cap mods, which makes your missions go faster, and your wallet fatter. - It is slow. You wont be zooming around in this ship like you can in a T3 or Machariel. This is offset by the large optimal range. You don't need to zoom around, you can wreck everything from where you are. - Poor tracking up close. This is a fairly ubiquitous problem for all battleship guns, they simply can't hit things at close range. Make sure you bring Hobgoblin IIs. - Tracking Disruption can mess with you. If you have good skills, a good fit, and good target selection, this is more of an annoyance than anything else. - Low/poor tank. This ship is not a brick. Its high damage encourages fitting for damage, and not for tank. I usually run mine with about 80% of the tank I have on my CNR fit... but it has something like 50,000 less buffer than the CNR. It will die faster. But the Nightmare's tank goes in the high slots anyway. The advantages though: - Tachyons. The Nightmare is one of only a handful of ships in the game that can fit these without gimping their fit. With good skills and implants, you can kill 4 frigates every 7 seconds or so. Mission frigates die faster than I can lock them. High damage, high optimal and high damage application. There is nothing to not like here. - Large optimal range. Using IN Multifrequency ammo (the good, close range stuff) I can hit out to 43kms, which is about where most mission rats sit. For the ones further out, IN Ultraviolet gives 75km optimal, and Aurrora (try not to use this, ever) gives 154km optimal. You don't need to go fast when you can incinerate everything in the room from wherever you happen to warp in. - Spikes. Seriously, it's covered in them. - Utility highs. This is a minor advantage, that only really becomes noticeable when you are in a fleet (incursion). You do have 2 utility highs. Fit a tractor and a salvager and make a little bit of extra income, or fit a cap transfer and shield repper and spider tank with a friend.
Gimme more Cynos Science and Trade Institute Caldari State 23	Posted - 2013.05.10 10:36:00 - [25] - Quote Tsukino Stareine wrote: Gimme more Cynos wrote: Bi-Mi Lansatha wrote: what are it's disadvantages For me, it's the mandatory cap-booster. You can't really make it work without, and it allways disgusted me to use those for PvE. I've considered the NM as an option, but cap-boosters weren't worth it for me. Especially because I see the lacks of Turrets while flying with a budd almost every day, and getting called in the night because "SANSHA TD ZOMG, HELP" isn't exactly fun :D Given the Buff to missiles next month, the benefit of flying a NM over CNR (moar damage) shrinks to almost 0. Cruisers will be a one-hit show, while elite-frigs should die within 2-3 volleys. It's okey for flying an allround ship which does perfectly well on every mission. Can't wait for the CNR getting another mid-slot like the raven aswell.. two TP's are going to kick buttz :D I don't understand what all the hate is with cap boosters, i mean all it is is just another button to press. It opens up so many more fits than attempting to make something cap stable without it. Personal preference that is. I just don't like to spend money on the charges, nor do I want the need to refill them. It also takes up a lot of space on my CNR, which is reserved for ammo (running 5-6 missions in a row without docking isn't uncommon for me). Besides that, I do run a cap-stable fit with a Gist C-type medium SB. Tanks the bare minimum and is certainly cheeper than Gist X-Type fueled with a cap-booster.
Bi-Mi Lansatha The Scope Gallente Federation 117	Posted - 2013.05.10 11:44:00 - [26] - Quote Paikis wrote: The disadvantages I've noticed are as follows: The advantages though: The Nightmare does sound very interesting. Later on, when I have skills, I will give it a try. Thank you.
Bi-Mi Lansatha The Scope Gallente Federation 117	Posted - 2013.05.10 11:46:00 - [27] - Quote Caitlyn Tufy wrote: Tldr: With missile buff, the CNR is a beast, simply unmatched at ranged dps. If anything, I half expect it to get nerfed once navy battleships are going to be tiericided. I also expect a nerf, but I will enjoy being over powered until they do.
Gimme more Cynos Science and Trade Institute Caldari State 23	Posted - 2013.05.10 13:47:00 - [28] - Quote Paikis wrote: Gimme more Cynos wrote: Bi-Mi Lansatha wrote: what are it's disadvantages For me, it's the mandatory cap-booster. That's not a disadvantage, that's just you not liking cap boosters. Ofcourse it is personal preference, but I just can't see how having to fit a cap-module on a PvE ship is not a disadvantage?
Volkar Amphal Straitjacket Jokers WHY so Seri0Us 0	Posted - 2013.05.10 14:20:00 - [29] - Quote I've been running Level 4s with the nightmare and quite often with a friend flying a CNR. Both of us got into these ships way before we could fly them anywhere near their potential (5M SP), but straight off the bat they were decent upgrades over the standard Raven and Armegeddon combo we were flying previously. Early doors my friends Raven was primary tank and damage dealer, and I was just along for the ride having not yet got my shield skills up. Plus i think missiles tend to be quicker to level to a decent standard than lasers. Less skills to learn. And while I was a fragile little flower, my friend was a beast immediately. Anyhow, we both kept training and bit by bit my Nightmare started to catch up in terms of dealing damage. See the thing is the tracking boost means that the Nightmare's applied damage with Tachs at anything over about 20km is consistant, high and instant. And the fact it can have it's optimal range, with it's best ammo, at 35k+, means that almost everything level 4 missions throw at you sits nicely at the range where you can deal 1000+ dps. As someone mentioned above, a single tach will pop most frigs in one shot, so you unlink your guns and pretty much take all the small ships out in the first 20-30 secs of combat. The Raven by which time has barely been able to connect with a single volley. The cruisers go down in one alpha strike, then as I said the bigger ships, which mostly sit at 20-45k away take the full force of what you can fire, with very few shots going astray. As of today, while I can never take the same sort of punishment he can, I can finish most level 4s as quick by myself as I can with both of us flying. It's only really the battleships that he can even help with as the Nightmare can take out everything smaller before his missles can land. It's a very powerful ship and, Angels apart, probably the best missioning ship in the game along with the Mach and Maraurders. And it's main weakness, small ships too close to hit, can easily be mitigated with either drones or smart bombs. I personally fly a smart bomb on it at all times along with a drone augmenter. It's other weakness is the cap needed to keep feeding the tachions, but for missioning, a couple of mins cap is all you need to eat throug half a room. I don't even use a booster, just a couple of rigs and 1-2 cap recharges. Sure you lose a bit of tank, but frankly you don't need it. As long as those guns are fed you can destroy any serious dps on you as soon as they are targetted.
Cipher Jones The Thomas Edwards Taco Tuesday All Stars 634	Posted - 2013.05.10 16:50:00 - [30] - Quote Quote: Being king is not about paper dps. /thread. From: Tommas De'Wins To: Cipher Jones Dude :) I got massives Basi hahahahahahaha



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