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Why do you think CCP deemed T1 BS worthy of the mighty nerf-hammer?

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Large Collidable Object morons. 2109	Posted - 2013.05.12 22:33:00 - [1] - Quote Okay - just came back from Sisi testing the new BS and I'd classify them as nerfed throughout the whole roster accross all races, except for those that largely remained unchanged. In the current build, they're more expensive in base price, far more expensive to rig, more expensive to fit and less efficient than any other subcap, whilst taking considerably longer to train. Acumulation of the reasons stated above is the reason why they're hardly seen outside of nullsec blobs or station games (the odd disco ship aside). They were in need of a buff, similar to the one T1 Cruisers received - after all T1 cruiser ad BS stats all hail from the same era of the game -everything around them was buffed whilst they stayed the same. Furtehrmore, BS lost quite a few niches they were viable in, such as being AOE DD proof, which obviouly is irrelevant now, small gang roaming (largely irrelevenat since the web & nano nerf), or sniping BS fleets (obsolete thanks to ongrid probing and outperformed by ABCs in that area). Yes - they will remain viable in nullsec blobs because they will still have the EHP advantage going for them, but outside of those, I see BS in a sharp decline from an unpopular status quo. Increased build cost on top of the nerfs just adds insult to injury. So why do you think CCP obviously has such a strong dislike for the class? You know... morons.
lovatus Universal Conquest Catastrophic Uprising 35	Posted - 2013.05.13 02:53:00 - [2] - Quote on paper I don't think its that bad but I don't think the nerfs will change much. the ships everyone liked before are still more or less the same and ships that sucked before will still suck (with special mention going to the raven which gains next to nothing and still has a mostly useless weapon system) sniper bc's will still be popular because they tend to be more survivable than ABC's and slightly more forgiving to fit. you're right about them becoming rare outside nullsec aside from incursions or pvp gangs and i'm disapointed more wasn't done
Ines Tegator Towels R Us 286	Posted - 2013.05.13 03:10:00 - [3] - Quote Large Collidable Object wrote: So why do you think CCP obviously has such a strong dislike for the class? I think they have a fundamental misunderstanding of the class. The few reasons BS are used in pvp have been glossed over, and the many reasons they are NOT used are completely unchanged. It's not really a nerf or a buff imo, it's just going to force newb mission runners (ie, pre-faction BS pilots) to change their fits. It's pretty clear they are putting a square peg into a round hole with their 3 ship roles, instead of deciding what the BS class is for. - Mission Overhaul - Bridging the PVP / PVE Gap - -áIf the game stops teaching people to fear lowsec, maybe people will start going there?
Jack Miton Aperture Harmonics K162 1839	Posted - 2013.05.13 03:32:00 - [4] - Quote Um...which ones got nerfed? Last I checked they got a pretty heft buff across the board...
Liam Inkuras Chaotic Tranquility Casoff 264	Posted - 2013.05.13 04:17:00 - [5] - Quote The new Hyperion disagrees with your statement of a BS nerf. I wear my goggles at night. Any spelling/grammatical errors come complimentary with my typing on a phone
Roime Shiva Furnace 2789	Posted - 2013.05.13 05:14:00 - [6] - Quote Battleships should be versatile DPS monsters with plenty of staying power to justify their massive drawbacks (speed, size, scan res). They would have all needed one more slot + fitting to use it, and 20-30% EHP across the board, along with sensor strength. Squishing them into attack/combat roles doesn't suit the ship class, and this small ship division is the source of the changes that appear as nerfs. -á- All I really wanted was to build a castle among the stars -
Zan Shiro Alternative Enterprises 143	Posted - 2013.05.13 05:19:00 - [7] - Quote Jack Miton wrote: Um...which ones got nerfed? Last I checked they got a pretty heft buff across the board... rokh... less reists and more ehp basically cancel each other out. Most fleet rokhs I have seen can't shoe horn in a decent omni tank that can can deal with the em hole well. The 4-5% resist of lv 4 or 5 will be missed. And then you factor in 3 races have ammo that jsut runs right through this hole. I do see the need to nerf resistance on some ships....rokh was not one of them. I never heard omfg its a rokh, this will take all day to kill it. And rokh sure as hell never tanked by gank. It would need to actually need a damage or even a tracking bonus to do that.
Tsukino Stareine EVE University Ivy League 163	Posted - 2013.05.13 05:21:00 - [8] - Quote I think one of the reasons CCP did this nerf was because people said "omg its a rokh"
Jack Miton Aperture Harmonics K162 1840	Posted - 2013.05.13 05:30:00 - [9] - Quote Right, cos no one uses rokhs for large scale fleet comps. oh wait... I seriously doubt a 1% bonus difference is going to make any difference to how they are used.
Dato Koppla Rage of Inferno Malefic Motives 185	Posted - 2013.05.13 05:40:00 - [10] - Quote Jack Miton wrote: Right, cos no one uses rokhs for large scale fleet comps. oh wait... I seriously doubt a 1% bonus difference is going to make any difference to how they are used. 5% in total =P but yeah, saying that BS got a massive nerfhammer is an exaggeration, it was just a bunch of tweaks (with some ships getting rehauls) so there are some winners and losers coming out of it but it isn't just a massive blanket nerf.
Diesel47 Bad Men Ltd. 633	Posted - 2013.05.13 13:57:00 - [11] - Quote Just making tier3 BC even better than they already are.
Malcanis Vanishing Point. The Initiative. 9293	Posted - 2013.05.13 14:22:00 - [12] - Quote Anyone who doesn't think that the new geddon isn't going to be a murdermobile should go back to EVE Uni. And dat phoon! 1 Kings 12:11
Ersahi Kir Infinite Mobility SpaceMonkey's Alliance 151	Posted - 2013.05.13 17:05:00 - [13] - Quote The only battleship I think is going to be complete trash after the update is the tempest. It's getting more expensive to be the same, while everything around it is getting better. I think it's going to be in a world of hurt.
Daniel Plain Science and Trade Institute Caldari State 1050	Posted - 2013.05.13 17:18:00 - [14] - Quote while i agree that battleships are becoming less cost effective in anything but blob warfare, i'm perfectly OK with it. it's a BATTLEship, so it should be used in BATTLES, not skirmishes. that said, i also tend to think that ABCs are kind of stealing BSs thunder in blob warfare. one way to combat this would be to introduce a battleship specific damage control which gives larger resistance bonuses or buffs RR (while at the same time nerfing max speed or some other feature that is less relevant in blobs but makes it unattractive in other areas). with the resistance boost from the new module, battleships could showcase their higher EHP and gain an edge in the role they are best suited for. "I don't troll, I just give overly blunt responses that annoy people who are wrong but don't want to admit it. It's not my fault that people have sensitive feelings" -MXZF
Garviel Tarrant Beyond Divinity Inc Shadow Cartel 839	Posted - 2013.05.13 17:30:00 - [15] - Quote Roime wrote: Battleships should be versatile DPS monsters with plenty of staying power to justify their massive drawbacks (speed, size, scan res). They would have all needed one more slot + fitting to use it, and 20-30% EHP across the board, along with sensor strength. Squishing them into attack/combat roles doesn't suit the ship class, and this small ship division is the source of the changes that appear as nerfs. What? BS already have more slots than they know what to do with BS's weren't nerfed, stop being bad. BYDI (Shadow cartel) Recruitment open!
Large Collidable Object morons. 2113	Posted - 2013.05.14 22:29:00 - [16] - Quote Malcanis wrote: Anyone who doesn't think that the new geddon isn't going to be a murdermobile should go back to EVE Uni. And dat phoon! A murdermobile that is outperformed by the abaddon in it's own neuting role except for neut range, which is admittedly important. However the Abaddon has an easier time fitting them, can sustain them for longer due to a better cap and tanks better (at least on yesterdays Sisi build), whereas the Abaddons tank has been nerfed without any other change. Considering the Abaddon was the only viable Amarr ship in blobs and that it wasn't exactly outstanding except when used by PL against -A-'s DRAEK blobs they kept throwing at them, I don't think the nerf is justified. The Geddon will be a neat Gimmick ship - the poor mans Bhaal, but comparing ABS to ABCs whilst ABCs cost 1/4 is a plain joke. Someone put a reasonable reply, claiming mostly got reshuflled, and I'd basically agree with that (an OP always has to be somewhat exagerated to spark discussion, imho), but that's the very point I'm criticising - they weren't buffed (except for Caldari, but that's most due to CM changes), Regarding their overall roles, it's mostly nerfs - whoever claimed they were buffed should please state which ones where, except for the ones undergoing complete rolechanges, making the future meta quite unpredictable. However, as I stated in the OP, they have been in about as much of a sad state as T1 cruisrers before the buff. Now what happened to T1 frigs and cruisers was a buff accross the board (except for the rifter and rupture, which were OP beyond recoginition before rebelance). T1 BS needed even more of a buff, but sadly, it didn't happen. Have you ever seen an overproptortional amount of BS outside blobs similar to the terrible DRAEK/CAEN monoculture we've been facing during last years? I think not. Now with these changes, I can't see BS reemerge outside blobs. You know... morons.
Cap James Tkirk Soldiers of Farscape Synthetic Systems 103	Posted - 2013.05.14 22:52:00 - [17] - Quote New BS Blob tactics?????
Xpaulusx Naari LLC 215	Posted - 2013.05.14 23:47:00 - [18] - Quote Increased build cost on top of what looks like a nerf disguised to look like a general balancing.I like to know how they justify that. ......................................................
Alexa Coates Federation Navy Assembly Group LLC 549	Posted - 2013.05.14 23:55:00 - [19] - Quote posting in a "never using bs's" thread because I agree. BS's blow. That's a Templar, an Amarr fighter used by carriers.
sabre906 Old Spice Syndicate Sailors of the Sacred Spice 1088	Posted - 2013.05.15 00:19:00 - [20] - Quote Alexa Coates wrote: posting in a "never using bs's" thread because I agree. BS's blow. I miss the Chivalry Ravens. When will CCP make them cool again? Standings Improvement Service https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=19454
Garviel Tarrant Beyond Divinity Inc Shadow Cartel 846	Posted - 2013.05.15 00:29:00 - [21] - Quote sabre906 wrote: Alexa Coates wrote: posting in a "never using bs's" thread because I agree. BS's blow. I miss the Chivalry Ravens. When will CCP make them cool again? Cavalry* BYDI (Shadow cartel) Recruitment open!
Ranamar Li3's Electric Cucumber Li3 Federation 7	Posted - 2013.05.15 00:31:00 - [22] - Quote sabre906 wrote: Alexa Coates wrote: posting in a "never using bs's" thread because I agree. BS's blow. I miss the Chivalry Ravens. When will CCP make them cool again? I have to ask... are Chivalry Ravens honour tanked? The new Raven can get up to 1500m/s with a little effort, and the a nanoed Typhoon will hit upwards 2km/s, so I think you can find some zippy battleships now.
Chainsaw Plankton IDLE GUNS IDLE EMPIRE 233	Posted - 2013.05.15 00:39:00 - [23] - Quote Malcanis wrote: Anyone who doesn't think that the new geddon isn't going to be a murdermobile should go back to EVE Uni. And dat phoon! I never went in the first place! wait, maybe that explains a lot. You can trust me, I have a monocole
Grog Barrel Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation 37	Posted - 2013.05.15 23:00:00 - [24] - Quote because ** the already **** up sandbox.
Baron vonDoom Scorn. 50	Posted - 2013.05.15 23:03:00 - [25] - Quote Jack Miton wrote: Um...which ones got nerfed? Last I checked they got a pretty heft buff across the board... Interesting. Care to elaborate which ones will bring the huge BS renaissance outside of PVE, blobs and camps?
Fronkfurter McSheebleton The Graduates RAZOR Alliance 197	Posted - 2013.05.15 23:47:00 - [26] - Quote Sorry, but the new Mega and Hyperion are damned awesome. Both of them are now significantly better at their intended roles. thhief ghabmoef
Incindir Mauser Adhocracy Incorporated Adhocracy 216	Posted - 2013.05.15 23:52:00 - [27] - Quote Ines Tegator wrote: I think they have a fundamental misunderstanding of the class. The few reasons BS are used in pvp have been glossed over, and the many reasons they are NOT used are completely unchanged. It's not really a nerf or a buff imo, it's just going to force newb mission runners (ie, pre-faction BS pilots) to change their fits. It's pretty clear they are putting a square peg into a round hole with their 3 ship roles, instead of deciding what the BS class is for. Well. With the latest rounds of changes it looks like the Scorpion is still the ugly, but useful, duckling. I feel that this is one instance where CCP should seriously consider fleshing out the class with more ships. At least one new battleship for each race. One new T2 battleship line. One intended for PvP. Blops and Marauders don't really cut it as a mainline BS designed for combat and conquest.
Orakkus Winds of Dawn Kraken. 96	Posted - 2013.05.16 00:27:00 - [28] - Quote I think there are three aspects being missed currently in this discussion. First, CCP has not yet balanced Tech 2 ships yet and what they have in mind already may be why Battleships are being buff/nerfed (however you want to consider it). Until we get a clearer picture of this, we really don't know how the game will be affected by these changes in the long term. Second, with the changes made to Ice mining and Moon mining, I think there is a push by CCP to make running capital and supercaptial ships much more expensive to use and operate in a force projection mode. The next ship in line to take that over will naturally be the battleship, which would assume the defense/offense roles to a certain extent. How effective this will be in actuality is tough to call. Third, after seeing many of the changes done to frigate and cruiser class ships and, let's be honest, those changes being wildly successful in their implimentation, I think we need to give CCP Rise, CCP Fozzie, and CCP Ytterbium substantial credit for their work and we should wait to see what their overall plan is before we start telling them they are wrong. They have proven themselves to be not only smart, but willing to make adjustments for the betterment of the game.
Ines Tegator Towels R Us 297	Posted - 2013.05.16 01:05:00 - [29] - Quote Considering that the role of a BS is "be really big and have a lot of HP," it's hard enough to make 3 unique variations per race already. I definitely don't think that we need more of them yet. What BS's need is a definitive identification of what they are supposed to do. Right now, they are able to: -Mission -Snipe (now competing with ABCs) -Neut -Damage Sponge -Lots of High Slots (smartbombs, etc) Which means that only those ships with a strong specialization will see any non-pve use. The new Geddon is a good example, and the Abbadon for it's tank, and the Maelstrom for it's Alpha damage. The problem is that battleships are not part of most combat doctrines; fleets that specialize in one of the above features are basically the only time they are used. Unless combat changes so that a slow, generalist ship with damage application problems becomes useful, that's not going to change. At least, until battleships are no longer slow, generalist ships with damage application problems. A few are getting some good tracking bonuses, so that's something. - Mission Overhaul - Bridging the PVP / PVE Gap - -áIf the game stops teaching people to fear lowsec, maybe people will start going there?
Nylith Empyreal Federal Defense Union Gallente Federation 324	Posted - 2013.05.16 01:20:00 - [30] - Quote Perhaps it's not the ships, but the intent that maybe they'll fix the armaments related to them down the line? IE drones? And the whole active armor thing, missiles, and whatever else you want to throw in there? I'm curious if after the ship roles we'd see some form of module tiericide or tweaking. And a drone revamp... Who's the more foolish the fool or the fool who replies to him?

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