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H0ot	Posted - 2005.10.12 03:23:00 - [1] Edited by: H0ot on 12/10/2005 03:25:45 My 2 ISK on the Wolf: I feel that the Wolf is just a glorified Destroyer and could use some tweaks to help it in the tanking department. Its primary resist is currently the worst of all AF's. 15% EM for a ship geared to armor tanking is useless. You're left with 2 holes to cover with hardeners instead of one for every other race. With the limited amount of slots and capacitor on frigates, that 1 slot makes all the difference. Ontop of that it has twice as much armor as it has shield and twice as many lowslots, making shield tanking almost impossible. If its to keep its 15% EM bonus, then atleast give it a 5/3/3 slot layout and swap the Armor/Shield values to compensate.
Hippey	Posted - 2005.10.12 03:28:00 - [2] Compared to the wolf, the ishkur is about.. ohh.. 400% better? more cap, more shield, more armor, more structure, better resists, longer targeting range, more sensor strength. only thing the wolf beats it on is speed and mass. oooooooh. oh and 1 less slot. but for that, it's got a gigantic drone bay (for a frig) wolf needs work I agree and jaguar needs to be fixed so more then one turret shows on it ------------------------------------------- If you do nothing to stop slavery, you do everything to support it!
H0ot	Posted - 2005.10.12 03:33:00 - [3] Personally I can live with all the usual Minmatar aches and pains (Less: Cap, PG, CPU, Drones etc.) now that my fitting skills are nearing their maximum. But its lacking in its primary role - tanking. All other races can do just fine with a single hardener, Wolves need 2 and can't even run a shield tank. Oh and before anyone brings up the Retri, I fly that too. And to be honest, atleast that does what it says on the tin.. it tanks like a mother.
F'nog	Posted - 2005.10.12 03:36:00 - [4] It all depends on how you're using it. If you fight Amarr or Amarr-based factions, like Sanshas, then it's the perfect ship to use. The same argument could be made for Amarr assaults. If you use one to fight a Sansha, then its resists suck. But that's hardly the point. You don't see people complaining about how bad Vagabonds or Munnins are, and they have the same resists (and make better armor tankers). Sig modified due to xenophobic comments -Iacon
DrunkenOne	Posted - 2005.10.12 03:48:00 - [5] Edited by: DrunkenOne on 12/10/2005 03:48:34 Originally by: F'nog It all depends on how you're using it. If you fight Amarr or Amarr-based factions, like Sanshas, then it's the perfect ship to use. The same argument could be made for Amarr assaults. If you use one to fight a Sansha, then its resists suck. But that's hardly the point. You don't see people complaining about how bad Vagabonds or Munnins are, and they have the same resists (and make better armor tankers). lol? Muninn sucks and vaga should be shield tanked. Try again...
H0ot	Posted - 2005.10.12 03:52:00 - [6] Originally by: F'nog You don't see people complaining about how bad Vagabonds or Munnins are, and they have the same resists (and make better armor tankers). I'm talking PvP here, I couldn't care less about people using it for NPC'ing, thats possible in every AF since even the Wolf only needs to tank 2 damage types at a time. And the reason Vagabonds are popular is their fairly high shield hitpoints plus the fact they can run a shieldtank. (Also they can't run an armor tank even if you wanted to, not enough powergrid ) As for the Muminn.. I havn't seen one undocked or in a fight, ever. It suffers from the exact same problem the Wolf does. But atleast they got its slot layout right. I might buy one some day just to see what they look like.
Phelan Lore	Posted - 2005.10.12 06:17:00 - [7] Edited by: Phelan Lore on 12/10/2005 06:20:00 Originally by: H0ot Edited by: H0ot on 12/10/2005 03:25:45 My 2 ISK on the Wolf: I feel that the Wolf is just a glorified Destroyer and could use some tweaks to help it in the tanking department. Its primary resist is currently the worst of all AF's. 15% EM for a ship geared to armor tanking is useless. You're left with 2 holes to cover with hardeners instead of one for every other race. With the limited amount of slots and capacitor on frigates, that 1 slot makes all the difference. Ontop of that it has twice as much armor as it has shield and twice as many lowslots, making shield tanking almost impossible. If its to keep its 15% EM bonus, then atleast give it a 5/3/3 slot layout and swap the Armor/Shield values to compensate. Even if this was done, I doubt it would have the CPU to run 280s, a shield booster, kin hardener, webber, and damage mods/tracking or whatever in the lows. and if this was done... The Jaguar would really need an exra mid slot (which I think it needs regardless) so it could do something other than just be a crappier Wolf. ie shield tank, scram/web, ab, and ACs.
dust monkey	Posted - 2005.10.12 06:52:00 - [8] well i fly a wolf, its my best ship atm,i dont realy go pvping, but i see what u mean about its tanking ablitys, i think of the wolf as a ship that isnt sposed to tank but to kill the enermy quiker than he can kill you, i do feal that the cpu should get a lil boost so its higher than the retribution, and the slot layout seems fine, but the fall off bonus is kind of crap, i think it needs a rethink, min arnt snipers ( imh ) they are sposed to deal a ****e load of dmg in a volly, maybe a tracking or rof would be nicer, also i think the wolf is a gank ship more of tank ship. i personaly gank it with arts or tank,speed with autos, maybe its cost im not a pvper so i dont know anything what im talking about :)
F'nog	Posted - 2005.10.12 06:56:00 - [9] Originally by: DrunkenOne Edited by: DrunkenOne on 12/10/2005 03:48:34 Originally by: F'nog It all depends on how you're using it. If you fight Amarr or Amarr-based factions, like Sanshas, then it's the perfect ship to use. The same argument could be made for Amarr assaults. If you use one to fight a Sansha, then its resists suck. But that's hardly the point. You don't see people complaining about how bad Vagabonds or Munnins are, and they have the same resists (and make better armor tankers). lol? Muninn sucks and vaga should be shield tanked. Try again... I said no one complains about the Muninn's resists. So far all I've heard are about it's other deficiencies, but maybe I missed something. Fair point about the Vagabond, though. But I imagine some enterprising people will find ways to armor tank them, especially with the new changes coming in. Sig modified due to xenophobic comments -Iacon
Famine Aligher'ri	Posted - 2005.10.12 08:06:00 - [10] Muninn doesn't suck. People use it wrong that simple. Wolf is fine the way it is. -It can use one of the best tracking guns in the game = Increased Hits -It can use versitle ammo to fit per Assault = Exploit resistance holes -It has speed and agility = Harder to track than other assaults You got 2 holes in your ship to cover. Why bother doing that to begin with? Damage/Tank > Tank/Resistance... Right now it's possiable to put 2 Gyro II's, 400 Named Plate, and a small armor Rep on a Wolf. That's about 1600+ armor HP with 2 damage mods and full line of DoT in highs. Wolf has a great advantage when used in the right combat role. To sum this up. If you're experience lacks so will your wolf. You people depend so much on one setup instead of actually relying on tactical skill/experience. Next thing you be complaining the Ishkur always wins. -Famine Aligher'ri, of The Aligher'ri
MacDuncan	Posted - 2005.10.12 08:12:00 - [11] Don't even try to tank a wolf....use it's strengths and that's dmg...that goes for PvE AND PvP --
Tar om	Posted - 2005.10.12 08:46:00 - [12] Originally by: MacDuncan Don't even try to tank a wolf....use it's strengths and that's dmg...that goes for PvE AND PvP sounds like the minmatar thing over again.... -- We are the Octavian Vanguard www.octavianvanguard.net "The belief in the possibility of a short decisive war appears to be one of the most ancient and dangerous of human illusions."
Bruchpilot	Posted - 2005.10.12 13:30:00 - [13] Originally by: MacDuncan Don't even try to tank a wolf....use it's strengths and that's dmg...that goes for PvE AND PvP Sounds like bull**** to me. PvE is all about tanking, for PvP check out the DOT of other assaults. The only reason the Wolf is better than other AFs with 280mm is just cause it has a good burstdamage wich helps to overcome an (for example) Enyo's tank very easily. Guess this days will be counted once ships get better defences.
MacDuncan	Posted - 2005.10.12 13:54:00 - [14] Really, it's all about tanking?? Wierd...why am i hunting e.g. without any tank, only repper T2, rest Gyro's and trackings (for Serps, not for Sanshas!)??? Just know some tactics, know the strenghts and weaknesses of your ship and in this particular case YOU DON'T NEED A TANK!!! Kill them, before they kill you, simple as that...cruiser/BS wont hit you anyway... --
Sorja	Posted - 2005.10.12 14:46:00 - [15] Originally by: H0ot As for the Muminn.. I havn't seen one undocked or in a fight, ever. You're kidding right? I remember of an IRON op in august with a mixed HACs/frigs fleet when we killed 53 ASCN/Stain in a night and the Munnin came on top of most of the kills. I've also seen sniping Munnins taking out experienced interceptor pilots while they had already built their transversal (so much for the sucky tracking legend). The same holds true for the Wolf, I see experienced pilots having tremendous results with them. That seems to be the rule for matari ships: good for the best. Kill mails
Vathar	Posted - 2005.10.12 15:07:00 - [16] I agree, don't tank a wolf, even for pve (don't rush into lvl.4 angel extravaganza with your wolf, but that's another story) Really, for 0.0 spawns, a small repper is enough against serpentis, not to mention sanshas or blood raiders, and it frees slots for gyros ... In pvp, a wolf is a dedicated ship, don't try to build an all-round setup, you'll end up very dead very quick, just think about what you WANT to do with your wolf and fit accordingly, run away from fights you can't win ... ____________ Space Shaman http://www.elegance-corp.net/images/sig/vat-sig.jpg Don't take life seriously, you'll not survive it anyway Erf, my sig is 240003 bytes wide; that's 3 byt
Dai'mon	Posted - 2005.10.12 15:20:00 - [17] Personally I use my Wolf for pvp and pve. Never had any complaints, I go pretty much all out for damage seems to work for me. I bought my first one about 6 months ago and i'm still using it. Personally I think a ship that has 4 t2 280mm's fitted probably shouldn't be able to mount a great tank
Trefnis	Posted - 2005.10.12 15:21:00 - [18] Originally by: Sorja I've also seen sniping Munnins taking out experienced interceptor pilots while they had already built their transversal (so much for the sucky tracking legend). Sorja dont talk about something u have no idea about, to hit a ceptor with 720II at full trans u need to be: 1) at least 70km from him 2) have 1 med tracking and 2 lowslot tracking mods T2 3) have hac lvl 5 for the tracking bonus of muninn 4) motion prediction 5 as i have all above bar hac 5 (have 4 now) and i dont hit ceptors that good (not talking about dmg but hits and u dont have this problem with any other guns with those conditions met) ps about the "on top killmail" this is becouse if muninn wont pop something in first volley it means its like 50% hull left at best and rest of gang kill it before he can shoot again (frig sized target)
Weirda	Posted - 2005.10.12 15:34:00 - [19] this thread have many lies in it 1) muninn don't suck - despite drunkenone thinking that he is the final word on such matter. 2) vaga can be armor or shield tanked. if you want full solo tackling kit in mids, that is one of you options. and it fits. and it is much less suseptable to heavy nos setups 3) wolf doesn't need anything. jaguar needs another mid though (god that would be sweet)... -is vaga more fun then muninn? yes. -is shield tanking better on vaga? yes - but you have more option and more nos survivabilty with armor tank. -- Thread Killer (attempting to train verbosity from 4 back down to 1) <END TRANSMISSION>
Grimpak	Posted - 2005.10.12 15:49:00 - [20] Originally by: Weirda this thread have many lies in it 1) muninn don't suck - despite drunkenone thinking that he is the final word on such matter. 2) vaga can be armor or shield tanked. if you want full solo tackling kit in mids, that is one of you options. and it fits. and it is much less suseptable to heavy nos setups 3) wolf doesn't need anything. jaguar needs another mid though (god that would be sweet)... -is vaga more fun then muninn? yes. -is shield tanking better on vaga? yes - but you have more option and more nos survivabilty with armor tank. there ya go. Think it's all covered up. Weirda > Drunken imho ------------------- Celestial Horizon: we go zerg on you
Weirda	Posted - 2005.10.12 16:50:00 - [21] Edited by: Weirda on 12/10/2005 16:50:57 Originally by: Grimpak Originally by: Weirda this thread have many lies in it 1) muninn don't suck - despite drunkenone thinking that he is the final word on such matter. 2) vaga can be armor or shield tanked. if you want full solo tackling kit in mids, that is one of you options. and it fits. and it is much less suseptable to heavy nos setups 3) wolf doesn't need anything. jaguar needs another mid though (god that would be sweet)... -is vaga more fun then muninn? yes. -is shield tanking better on vaga? yes - but you have more option and more nos survivabilty with armor tank. there ya go. Think it's all covered up. Weirda > Drunken imho lol - no disrespect for drunkenone at all - he is great pilot. just starting to get tired of hearing that over and over. there are advantage to wolf over jag and jag over wolf. there are advantage to vaga over muninn and muninn (gasp) over vaga. bottom line (iwho) - 720s are useless in pvp on muninn unless: a) you have a tackler or b) you don't mind you target getting away every so often (THE HORROR) and even moreso: a) wolf > jag if you have tackler, you can really have great setup - try to fit for solo and there just isn't enough room to make this shine. b) muninn > vaga if you have tackler, you can really do more damage (up close) - or lay a lot of damage w/720s, who give a crap about inties if they are webbed by you tackler - you will be able to destroy the target before he can hurt you tackler. c) jag > wolf solo (especially w/gistii - but even without) d) vaga > muninn solo ('nuff said) and there is more: a) vaga is great killer solo with armor tank - extra mid not boosting can do wonders b) vaga is good solo killer w/shield tank (more suseptable to nos though) c) vaga with arties is a travesty - you can annihilate ** at 15km even with you autocannons when necessary with falloff bonus of course weirda isn't so arrogant to think these just aren't opinions, but have had a LOT of experience in all 4 ship (both good and bad). sorry no fraps, play on a laptop and it is hard enough w/o running other crap lol! -- Thread Killer (attempt to train verbosity from 4 back down to 1 -- failed**) <END TRANSMISSION>
Weirda	Posted - 2005.10.12 16:56:00 - [22] Edited by: Weirda on 12/10/2005 16:58:26 about you suggestion to wolf Originally by: H0ot If its to keep its 15% EM bonus, then atleast give it a 5/3/3 slot layout and swap the Armor/Shield values to compensate. as weirda state above - this is unnecessary. wolf have it high points - a change like this would make the jag unused (whee - same mids but one less high - wtf). you can make a jag shine solo if you are patient. a wolf shines when in a group. sorry for spamming this thread - y'all discussing weirda favourite 4 ship though! -- Thread Killer (attempt to train verbosity from 4 back down to 1 -- failed) <END TRANSMISSION>
Grimpak	Posted - 2005.10.12 17:04:00 - [23] Edited by: Grimpak on 12/10/2005 17:04:14 Originally by: Weirda Edited by: Weirda on 12/10/2005 16:50:57 Originally by: Grimpak Originally by: Weirda this thread have many lies in it 1) muninn don't suck - despite drunkenone thinking that he is the final word on such matter. 2) vaga can be armor or shield tanked. if you want full solo tackling kit in mids, that is one of you options. and it fits. and it is much less suseptable to heavy nos setups 3) wolf doesn't need anything. jaguar needs another mid though (god that would be sweet)... -is vaga more fun then muninn? yes. -is shield tanking better on vaga? yes - but you have more option and more nos survivabilty with armor tank. there ya go. Think it's all covered up. Weirda > Drunken imho lol - no disrespect for drunkenone at all - he is great pilot. just starting to get tired of hearing that over and over. there are advantage to wolf over jag and jag over wolf. there are advantage to vaga over muninn and muninn (gasp) over vaga. bottom line (iwho) - 720s are useless in pvp on muninn unless: a) you have a tackler or b) you don't mind you target getting away every so often (THE HORROR) and even moreso: a) wolf > jag if you have tackler, you can really have great setup - try to fit for solo and there just isn't enough room to make this shine. b) muninn > vaga if you have tackler, you can really do more damage (up close) - or lay a lot of damage w/720s, who give a crap about inties if they are webbed by you tackler - you will be able to destroy the target before he can hurt you tackler. c) jag > wolf solo (especially w/gistii - but even without) d) vaga > muninn solo ('nuff said) and there is more: a) vaga is great killer solo with armor tank - extra mid not boosting can do wonders b) vaga is good solo killer w/shield tank (more suseptable to nos though) c) vaga with arties is a travesty - you can annihilate ** at 15km even with you autocannons when necessary with falloff bonus of course weirda isn't so arrogant to think these just aren't opinions, but have had a LOT of experience in all 4 ship (both good and bad). sorry no fraps, play on a laptop and it is hard enough w/o running other crap lol! add the fact that the jag is OMFG!SOFASTITZIPSTHRUJ00BEFOREYOUCANBLINK!! ...well.. for an Afrig at least ------------------- Celestial Horizon*: we go zerg on you*
Ras Blumin	Posted - 2005.10.12 17:39:00 - [24] Edited by: Ras Blumin on 12/10/2005 17:39:03 Originally by: Weirda c) jag > wolf solo (especially w/gistii - but even without) Share :\| p - l - u - r
Weirda	Posted - 2005.10.12 18:33:00 - [25] Originally by: Ras Blumin Edited by: Ras Blumin on 12/10/2005 17:39:03 Originally by: Weirda c) jag > wolf solo (especially w/gistii - but even without) Share :\| not going to give a complete setup here - but only this: - stop trying to fit an AB to you jag and you will do fine, you can hit anything for full damage with EMP (or other short ranged ammo) out to 20km, anything beyond that can either a) warp anyways or b) you can warp anyways if you are not currently trying to fit AB on you Jag and are still having problems, you should re-think the rest of you slots. -- Thread Killer (attempt to train verbosity from 4 back down to 1 -- failed) <END TRANSMISSION>
Grimpak	Posted - 2005.10.12 18:52:00 - [26] Originally by: Weirda Originally by: Ras Blumin Edited by: Ras Blumin on 12/10/2005 17:39:03 Originally by: Weirda c) jag > wolf solo (especially w/gistii - but even without) Share :\| not going to give a complete setup here - but only this: - stop trying to fit an AB to you jag and you will do fine, you can hit anything for full damage with EMP (or other short ranged ammo) out to 20km, anything beyond that can either a) warp anyways or b) you can warp anyways if you are not currently trying to fit AB on you Jag and are still having problems, you should re-think the rest of you slots. oh my... you just gave me nasty ideas. goes back to the drawing board to get nice setups. ------------------- Celestial Horizon: we go zerg on you*
Ras Blumin	Posted - 2005.10.12 19:09:00 - [27] Originally by: Weirda if you are not currently trying to fit AB on you Jag and are still having problems, you should re-think the rest of you slots. Argh, I never use ab on my arty af's.. shield tanked I guess? p - l - u - r
DrunkenOne	Posted - 2005.10.12 19:27:00 - [28] Edited by: DrunkenOne on 12/10/2005 19:32:32 Originally by: Weirda lol - no disrespect for drunkenone at all - he is great pilot. just starting to get tired of hearing that over and over. bottom line (iwho) - 720s are useless in pvp on muninn unless: a) you have a tackler or b) you don't mind you target getting away every so often (THE HORROR) b) muninn > vaga if you have tackler, you can really do more damage (up close) - or lay a lot of damage w/720s, who give a crap about inties if they are webbed by you tackler - I agree that the muninn doesnt suck, I was simply making a point . I too fly the muninn a lot (as u can see here), but the only setup that it does well at all is as a 720 II platform, for which it has to sacrifice basically all tank. An autocannon muninn is simply a poor substitute for an autovaga. They do the SAME damage with HAC 5, so I don't know where this "muninn does more" is coming from. And thats just base damage. Compare the 2: An autovaga can hit out with like 15km, while running a GREAT shield tank, and being able to use an AB OR mwd. Since it has a shield tank, its lows can be stuffed with gyro IIs. A muninn meanwhile can only armor tank w/ a plate, for which it has to fit a rcu II, a med rep II, and 2 hardners (to make up for its 2 **** resists). This means that it now has ZERO low slots for gyro IIs. On top of that, its slow as hell, and needs to use a mwd, gimping its cap. So an autovaga realistically does MUCH more damage than an automuninn. Then compare the muninn to ships like the zealot. The zealot can do the same sniping gank setup, using 4 heavy beam IIs and 4 heat sink IIs, but it can ALSO fit an armor tank, and it has GREAT armor resists. Meanwhile, to fit a med rep on a muninn you need to gimp your damage, and you still have 2 uberlow resists to deal with. However, a 720 II gank muninn is amazing, 1 volleying assaults is pretty sweet, and I lock pods in about 2 seconds.
Ras Blumin	Posted - 2005.10.12 19:48:00 - [29] Just to totally highjack the thread, would it be good to shieldtank an arty muninn? With 2 empty hi's, L C5, M cap booster, 2 RCU 2's and AWU 5 you've got 2 grid left for a magic mod in the last mid. p - l - u - r
Famine Aligher'ri	Posted - 2005.10.12 19:53:00 - [30] Again umm no. The Muninn doesn't do the same damage as a Vagabond. The Munin has more powergrid and more high slots. If you need to recap the Muninn bonus here you go... -Muninn 5% Bonus to Tracking per Level. -Muninn/Vaga 5% bonus to Damage per Level. -Muninn 10% bonus to Op range per level That means the Muninn autocannons have a killer tracking bonus over the Vagabond. So the Muninn has overall better hits with autocannons over the Vagabond. The Vagabond simply has more UTILITY in getting it's ship into Falloff/Op Range than an Muninn because of the speed BONUS. Fitting 720's is a pain, Zealot can do it better yes. Autocannons are a blessing though. They need little PG and little CPU to fit an MASSIVE DoT on a victim. It is also another blessing we can use EVERY damage in the game. We can exploit vulns to ships where others can't. Whenever the skills/mods come out for "Reload" times. You will see that the Muninn will have a greater boost as well the Vagabond. Who does the most damage with Autocannons - Muninn Who has the most utility to utilize Autocannons - Vagabond Who has the most high slots for damage - Muninn Who has the better falloff - Vagabond Who has the better Optimal Range - Muninn Who has the best tanking - Vagabond (Shield/Armor) So to some this up. Muninn is just like the wolf and almost the same as the mini-tempest with autocannons minus tracking bonus. It also has more highslots for more DPS might I add. If you can get in range with a Muninn with autocannons on. It will prob surpass the Vagabond's DPS for the fact TRACKING INCREASES HITS. -Famine Aligher'ri, of The Aligher'ri
DrunkenOne	Posted - 2005.10.12 19:58:00 - [31] Edited by: DrunkenOne on 12/10/2005 20:00:02 Originally by: Famine Aligher'ri Again umm no. The Muninn doesn't do the same damage as a Vagabond. The Munin has more powergrid and more high slots. If you need to recap the Muninn bonus here you go... -Muninn 5% Bonus to Tracking per Level. -Muninn/Vaga 5% bonus to Damage per Level. -Muninn 10% bonus to Op range per level That means the Muninn autocannons have a killer tracking bonus over the Vagabond. So the Muninn has overall better hits with autocannons over the Vagabond. The Vagabond simply has more UTILITY in getting it's ship into Falloff/Op Range than an Muninn because of the speed BONUS. Who does the most damage with Autocannons - Muninn Who has the most utility to utilize Autocannons - Vagabond Who has the most high slots for damage - Muninn Who has the better falloff - Vagabond Who has the better Optimal Range - Muninn Who has the best tanking - Vagabond (Shield/Armor) So to some this up. Muninn is just like the wolf and almost the same as the mini-tempest with autocannons minus tracking bonus. It also has more highslots for more DPS might I add. If you can get in range with a Muninn with autocannons on. It will prob surpass the Vagabond's DPS for the fact TRACKING INCREASES HITS. Uhhhh... What are you fitting in your highslots? Launchers? Congrats on your like... 5 extra dps. I've already shown you that an autovaga heavily outdamages an automuninn because the automuninn needs its lows to tank, while an autovaga can fit gyros there. And the tracking bonus doesnt really matter cause you shouldnt be fighting uberclose with autos anyways... thats why you have a falloff bonus. Look, if youd like, fit an automuninn out however you want, and I will fit an autovaga out, and we will see who wins. Here is the real breakdown: Who does the most damage with Autocannons - Same, technically Vagabond (more damage mods) Who has the most utility to utilize Autocannons - Vagabond Who has the most high slots for damage - Muninn (meaningless unless you are fitting launchers, in which case LOL) Who has the better falloff - Vagabond Who has the better Optimal Range - Muninn (meaningless, optimal doesnt matter using autocannons) Who has the best tanking - Vagabond (Shield/Armor) <---agreed.
Weirda	Posted - 2005.10.12 21:58:00 - [32] you have to admit though drunkenone - when going against larger targets - the vaga's speed isn't AS important, and it is nice to fit TWO medium diminishing nos on top of you full rack of guns, instead of just one. -- Thread Killer (attempt to train verbosity from 4 back down to 1 -- failed) <END TRANSMISSION>
Bruchpilot	Posted - 2005.10.12 22:03:00 - [33] Famine, you post in a lot of Minmatar threads but I can't see where your experience is coming from. In fact I think you never fought someone who knows how to fit a good setup on his ship. Then making assumptions like "ship x does more damage than y" which are in most cases NOT true leads to the conclusion that you have no idea how non-Minmatar ships work. To the expert who fits for gank on PvE: Try a hard complex with your gankawolf and then get an AF which can tank good like the Enyo and do the same complex again. Wich one will perform better?
Kara Kaprica	Posted - 2005.10.12 23:24:00 - [34] Having been podded by Drunken one, sticking up for him does not come easy to me, however you guys that are arguing a automunnin is better than an autovaga are talking absolute Toilet. Extra tracking on a high tracking weapon is not going to add anywhere near the dot of a Gyro II or 5.(as the vaga can tank with 5 gyro II, and the munnin has no tank if it tries to run the same) if you think otherwise, i really dont understand your method of deduction. The Muninn does not have the speed to bring the autocannons to bear like the vaga can, and the vaga can hit from ALOT further out with its autos.(increasing damage caused, as it is firing for longer than the muninn, negate this bonus for fights beginging under 15k) The vagabond can run a setup to give it interceptor like combat agility (and 3k speed) and still have the same damage as a muninn minus a very small ammount of tracking, meaning you can keep your autocannons at the angle/range they should be at. The muninn can get outmanuvuered serverly limiting its hitting capability, and therefore its DPS The comment about speed not being important vs a big ship is also party inaccurate. The ability to get under someones guns BEFORE they lock you, is the difference between victory and defeat against many ships. IE Rail Platform at 60k+ "Vengence delivered, on time and cold as ordered"
DrunkenOne	Posted - 2005.10.12 23:27:00 - [35] Originally by: Weirda you have to admit though drunkenone - when going against larger targets - the vaga's speed isn't AS important, and it is nice to fit TWO medium diminishing nos on top of you full rack of guns, instead of just one. Agree about the nos, but disagree about the vagas speed. In fact I would say it is MUCH more important. The vagas speed means you can quickly get under a BS guns, while a muninn takes MUCH longer.
Pant Alones	Posted - 2005.10.12 23:35:00 - [36] Originally by: H0ot If its to keep its 15% EM bonus, then atleast give it a 5/3/3 slot layout and swap the Armor/Shield values to compensate. No. -------------------
Sky Hunter	Posted - 2005.10.12 23:53:00 - [37] Originally by: Kara Kaprica Extra tracking on a high tracking weapon is not going to add anywhere near the dot of a Gyro II or 5.(as the vaga can tank with 5 gyro II, and the munnin has no tank if it tries to run the same) Please, show me setup where i can tank in meds and have 5 Gyro II in lows while using 220 IIs in highs and Med Nos II. Even with Adv Weapon Upgrades lvl 5 and other skills to lvl 5, you still will need at least one PDU II to make it all fit. By tank i meant not 1 Med Shield Booster and Hardener....i mean normal tank with extender and such. -=-
Famine Aligher'ri	Posted - 2005.10.13 00:18:00 - [38] Quote: Uhhhh... What are you fitting in your highslots? Launchers? Congrats on your like... 5 extra dps. I've already shown you that an autovaga heavily outdamages an automuninn because the automuninn needs its lows to tank, while an autovaga can fit gyros there. And the tracking bonus doesnt really matter cause you shouldnt be fighting uberclose with autos anyways... thats why you have a falloff bonus. Increased Optimal range helps pushs falloff, not to complicated to understand that. Vaga will still surpass the Muninn's range. Something like 12km total with op/falloff with Muninn and 15km with Vaga's stats. Whole 3km diffrence really. Vaga has the option to use an Tracking disruptor/speed/web/Scrambler. Muninn has the option of using Tracking Disruptor/Speed/Scrambler. Even Tracking Disruptor/Speed/Webber if an tackler is with you. Hac vs Hac you don't need a Webber unless it's MWD Vaga. Tackled instas tracking disruptor/web/scram. Unless you ment shield tanking a Vaga. If so then no comment... What I'm trying to get at is yes both Vaga/Muninn could tank lows for PvP. Why would you tank the Muninn and not the Vaga? If you're outnumbered then your speed isn't helping. If you got 1 Tracking Disruptor you still leave the other guy to hit you. If you're going to shield tank and sacrifice an Tracking Disruptor and a Webber? Why? Screw all of that... You can tank them both the same. So why do you keep saying "Well Vaga can fit more Gyros". You can fit all GYRO II's in Low slots of a Muninn and fit 425's in High slots with an Ab/Web/Scram. If you have the weapon upgrade skills to back it. Not that it matters. It's the CPU cut from weapon upgrades/implants you really need for Gyro's being the Muninn has more PG than the Vaga. So it has more Autocannon support as far as fitting goes PG wise. Being EW is expensive on CPU and you can't cut that like can with guns. After the new changes, just 2 Gyro's will be suffient enough. Which will leave more people to maybe tank the Muninn if using Autocannons. As it stands now, a Muninn can support 3 425's/2 220's II, 2 Assault II's, AbII, Web/Scram, 3 Gyro II's, 800mm Plate, with an Medium Armor Rep fine. Just to recap speeds here they are for me. Vaga - 305M/S - 812m/s - 2382M/s Muninn - 255M/S - 646M/S - 1848M/s SO yeah, not trying to diss the Vaga as a better autocannon ship. It has speed, more range, and more EW support. Which is my kind of ship. Just stating the Muninn can fit Autocannons too, and Assaults, has some speed, with gyro's, and some tank support. In range and in check. Muninn will do very good as far as damage and tank support. -Famine Aligher'ri, of The Aligher'ri
Quirion	Posted - 2005.10.13 00:18:00 - [39] Originally by: Famine Aligher'ri Muninn doesn't suck. People use it wrong that simple. Wolf is fine the way it is. -It can use one of the best tracking guns in the game = Increased Hits -It can use versitle ammo to fit per Assault = Exploit resistance holes -It has speed and agility = Harder to track than other assaults You got 2 holes in your ship to cover. Why bother doing that to begin with? Damage/Tank > Tank/Resistance... Right now it's possiable to put 2 Gyro II's, 400 Named Plate, and a small armor Rep on a Wolf. That's about 1600+ armor HP with 2 damage mods and full line of DoT in highs. Wolf has a great advantage when used in the right combat role. To sum this up. If you're experience lacks so will your wolf. You people depend so much on one setup instead of actually relying on tactical skill/experience. Next thing you be complaining the Ishkur always wins. Amen to that. -------------------------------------------------- The Talking Toaster
Famine Aligher'ri	Posted - 2005.10.13 00:24:00 - [40] Originally by: Bruchpilot Famine, you post in a lot of Minmatar threads but I can't see where your experience is coming from. In fact I think you never fought someone who knows how to fit a good setup on his ship. Then making assumptions like "ship x does more damage than y" which are in most cases NOT true leads to the conclusion that you have no idea how non-Minmatar ships work. To the expert who fits for gank on PvE: Try a hard complex with your gankawolf and then get an AF which can tank good like the Enyo and do the same complex again. Wich one will perform better? I fight plenty of people day to day. I fly a Wolf hence why I'm posting here. I like to think my setups serve me decent and work well in Pvp. Especialy vs Interceptors. Just killed one last night to. Another Plated claw with autocannons engaging my 1600 armor 2 gyroed out Wolf. Got me half armor before poppping. Silly bastids with dumb assumptions on what Assaults use for Pvp. I'm not trying to proove anything because I really don't care. If I did, prob would have fraps 3-5 fights by now solo and posted it up to show off my ***** size. But I don't do that. Besides weren't you the guy who posted up about the wolf not being able to fit active armor hardners? snicker... -Famine Aligher'ri, of The Aligher'ri
DrunkenOne	Posted - 2005.10.13 00:42:00 - [41] Edited by: DrunkenOne on 13/10/2005 00:42:44 Originally by: Sky Hunter Originally by: Kara Kaprica Extra tracking on a high tracking weapon is not going to add anywhere near the dot of a Gyro II or 5.(as the vaga can tank with 5 gyro II, and the munnin has no tank if it tries to run the same) Please, show me setup where i can tank in meds and have 5 Gyro II in lows while using 220 IIs in highs and Med Nos II. Even with Adv Weapon Upgrades lvl 5 and other skills to lvl 5, you still will need at least one PDU II to make it all fit. By tank i meant not 1 Med Shield Booster and Hardener....i mean normal tank with extender and such. um maybe dont use dual 220s? 5 dual 180 IIs, med nos ab, scrambler, med shield booster II, extender 5 gyro IIs pretty sure that fits, I use dual 220s and a mwd with a rcu II in lows.
Famine Aligher'ri	Posted - 2005.10.13 00:49:00 - [42] Edited by: Famine Aligher''ri on 13/10/2005 00:52:22 Laugh you are shield tanking a Vaga for 5 gyro's. That's funny.. -Famine Aligher'ri, of The Aligher'ri
Kara Kaprica	Posted - 2005.10.13 01:01:00 - [43] Quote: So why do you keep saying "Well Vaga can fit more Gyros". You can fit all GYRO II's in Low slots of a Muninn and fit 425's in High slots with an Ab/Web/Scram. If you have the weapon upgrade skills to back it. Not that it matters. It's the CPU cut from weapon upgrades/implants you really need for Gyro's being the Muninn has more PG than the Vaga. So it has more Autocannon support as far as fitting goes PG wise. Being EW is expensive on CPU and you can't cut that like can with guns. OK, Basically set with autocannons for MAXIMUM (full lows gyros) Damage, the vaga can repair with MWD+Web+Scram, the muninn cant, the vaga hits from further away, and closes on its target faster. I will go Autovaga on Automuninn for any of you that want to put your 80m where your mouth is. "Vengence delivered, on time and cold as ordered"
Kara Kaprica	Posted - 2005.10.13 01:04:00 - [44] Originally by: Famine Aligher'ri Edited by: Famine Aligher''ri on 13/10/2005 00:52:22 Laugh you are shield tanking a Vaga for 5 gyro's. That's funny.. whats funny is that you would armor tank it. The ship is a predator, and tanking its armor requires Minimum 2 slots and 3 if you want half decent resists, where shield tank takes 1 and has 40 and 60% lowest resists, compared to 10 and 25. And it takes away from your dps. Are you talking about amour tank for npcs? "Vengence delivered, on time and cold as ordered"
Sky Hunter	Posted - 2005.10.13 01:05:00 - [45] First of all 425 IIs arent that good as 220 IIs. You wont hit inty/af as good with 425 IIs orbiting full speed without webber. Yes against BS id say go for 425 as more dmg for less tracking. But for group/solo id go with 180 IIs/220 IIs as much more versatile. -=-
Famine Aligher'ri	Posted - 2005.10.13 01:22:00 - [46] Originally by: Kara Kaprica Originally by: Famine Aligher'ri Edited by: Famine Aligher''ri on 13/10/2005 00:52:22 Laugh you are shield tanking a Vaga for 5 gyro's. That's funny.. whats funny is that you would armor tank it. The ship is a predator, and tanking its armor requires Minimum 2 slots and 3 if you want half decent resists, where shield tank takes 1 and has 40 and 60% lowest resists, compared to 10 and 25. And it takes away from your dps. Are you talking about amour tank for npcs? Something about losing an webber and tracking disruptor for 2 shield tanking mods kind lost me. But hey I'm solo, don't have people tackling for me. I wouldn't shield tank it for the fact it's better to cripple your oppnent with EW. Sure Shield tanking with all gyros be great in a group vs battleships whatever. They're not going to hit you anways, why web em too? But Hac wise, you're going down in grouped combat vs suitable groups. You just wasted all that cap for a shield boost and MWD to be picked off by a zealot that's not even in your falloff range to begin with and maybe not the primary target. Solo wise, tracking disruptor is all you need and a light tank with gryo's. Just my opinion though. -Famine Aligher'ri, of The Aligher'ri
Gripen	Posted - 2005.10.13 01:23:00 - [47] Never bothered to buy Muninn because everything it can do Vagabond does better. Except long range sniping but that's we have Tempest for. Back to topic. As someone said full artillery Wolf shouldn't be able to tank and I am agree with that. But there is must be way for Wolf to compete with other assaults. Here is my suggestion: -Give Wolf second launcher hardpoint -Switch optimal bonus to -15% to Standard missile launcher CPU and Powergrid usage (can't remove falloff bonus because of autocannon users) -Increase falloff bonus from 5% to 10% or even 15% to compensate This gives opportunity to sacrifice volley damage to tanking and fit nicely to minmatar concept of turrets\missile mixed ships and even to Wolf model. Jaguar must be changed to 4 med 2 low layout or given a 30-40 percent damage bonus instead of 25.
Weirda	Posted - 2005.10.13 05:42:00 - [48] Originally by: Gripen Jaguar must be changed to 4 med 2 low layout that would make the baby jesus smile -- Thread Killer (attempt to train verbosity from 4 back down to 1 -- failed) <END TRANSMISSION>

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