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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 5 post(s) |
xenorx
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Posted - 2005.10.12 20:00:00 -
[1]
 Originally by: keepiru
Since we're on about facts: here's 1 of the reasons why heavy missiles suck:
The damage/signature ratio is all screwed up. Allow me to elaborate:
Light missiles do 75hp on 50m explosion base. Thats 1.5hp/m. As valid weapons against frigates (which they are and arent) they are much better than cruise missiles which do:
300hp for 300m, giving you a 1hp/m base ratio.
Now youd expect heavy missiles, being cruiser weapons, to be somewhere in the middle, right? Wrong.
150hp for 150m :/
Given the same skills, a cruise and a heavy missile will do the same damage to a target of frigate or destroyer size. Any performance difference is merely a function of launcher rof.
Since the problem with light missiles performance vs. mwd frigates is related to explosion speed, I shall consider in my proposition that explosion radius will remain as it is now.
Given that any dps inbalance (such as the arguably low dps of most launchers apart from torpedoes) can be rectified by modifying the rate of fire, a solution is now apparent, provided we accept that light/cruise missile hp/m values are valid.
Simply increasing the base damage of heavy missiles until its hp/m ratio falls somewhere in the middle of light and cruise missiles.
The ideal value for this is 187.5hp - giving 1.25hp/m base and 2.083*hp/m with max skills - but anywhere between 180 and 200 would do the job.
Decreasing the base explosion radius to 140m and increasing ase damage to 175hp is another option, and gives nice round numbers on the info page. :)
Here's a nifty table that shows you how right i am ;p
all values in hp/m
Base Max Skills
Rocket 1.25 1.5265
Light 1.5 2.5
Proposed 1.25 2.083*
Heavy 1.0 1.6*
Cruise 1.0 1.6*
Torpedo 1.125 1.40625
Discuss :p
If I understand your proposal a heavy missile with all the new missile skills maxed out would do 312.45 hps. 150*2.083= 312.50. This is pretty much where I had been thinking they should be too. I just never had been able to put my finger on the "why" as you have done. Of course it would still be subject to the reduced damage to smaller/faster targets but would put it more in tune with the DoT of turrets when used on cruiser/BS size targets.
Is the racial damage bonus figured into your "max skill" figures? For example a Cerberus with max skills firing heavies would hit for 312.50 using non racial heavy missiles while hitting for 390.56 using kinetic?
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xenorx
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Posted - 2005.10.12 20:20:00 -
[2]
Originally by: Stepping Razor
I'm told tech II rocket launchers on a crow are totally devastating with decent skills. I've had accounts from the winning and losing side of this and it's all been to the effect that it's quite good. Can't claim personal experience yet, tech II launchers are low priority training for me right at the moment.
AFAIK the only advantage to a T2 Rocket launcher over an Arbalast Rocket launcher is the 2% RoF. Granted that would work out to a 10% boost to DoT assuming the rocket launcher specialization skill was maxed at lvl 5.
Most ppl I have talked to are happy with the results on rockets. I think most ppl tend to get pear shaped when it comes to heavy missiles and to some extent light missiles. For the most part cruise and torps are fine.
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xenorx
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Posted - 2005.10.14 20:17:00 -
[3]
Originally by: Hoshi
Using Gray Areas log it's easy to calculate the Signature Radius of the buildings and it's 100m and it's the same for all buildings.
Nice round number I guess but for misssiles where damage is directly effected by the size instead of like turrets where it's part of the tracking formula this becomes a problem.
Exactly.
From the looks of his log he is getting the correct damage with rockets and lights for his skill lvls. They need to up the Sig Radius on the buildings to 400 to get full damage all across the board. Wouldn't create a balance issue IMO because who cares if all buildings are taking full damage.
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xenorx
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Posted - 2005.10.14 20:27:00 -
[4]
Originally by: Jim Raynor
Originally by: xenorx
Originally by: Hoshi
Using Gray Areas log it's easy to calculate the Signature Radius of the buildings and it's 100m and it's the same for all buildings.
Nice round number I guess but for misssiles where damage is directly effected by the size instead of like turrets where it's part of the tracking formula this becomes a problem.
Exactly.
From the looks of his log he is getting the correct damage with rockets and lights for his skill lvls. They need to up the Sig Radius on the buildings to 400 to get full damage all across the board. Wouldn't create a balance issue IMO because who cares if all buildings are taking full damage.
What about Citadel Torpedoes?
I guess in the end I really wouldnt mind if they hit deadspace structures for full damage either. If that is what you mean.
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xenorx
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Posted - 2005.10.15 19:44:00 -
[5]
Well we did have a pretty good and constructive thread going on missiles. I dont think it was a thread on bash the developer or a caldari ships sux thread. For those guys please go someplace else and make your own threads and leave the ppl here who want to actually try and voice their CONSTRUCTIVE thoughts on MISSILES and how to fix them.
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xenorx
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Posted - 2005.10.16 18:35:00 -
[6]
Originally by: Maya Rkell
Edited by: Maya Rkell on 16/10/2005 16:37:47
There is no problem with 'ceptors and fast frigates, under MWD, shrugging off cruise and torps. Their ability to engage from beyond 20km is negligable, and within 20km, nos, drones etc. can easily mess them up. If they remain outside tackling range, unable to close foe fear of missiles...that's fine, afaik. Rocket crows are still nasty.
If you think a large turret is going to hit even a webbed 'ceptor...
And ...does a Mega have a higher DoT? If not then yes there's an issue. If notm then the tanking changes are going to even things up.
While I do agree with you that cruise and torps not hitting a mwd frigate for much damage is the way it should be. I do have a problem with fast frigates being almost immune to lights and to some extent rockets. For that matter they should take a more damage from even heavy missiles. The missile changes appear to have been directed exclusivly at the cruise and torps while ignoring all missiles below them. The only missiles that I think that really improved with the changes was rockets against all ships and torps against battleships. All other missiles as the math in this thread shows are sub-par in relation to turrets.
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xenorx
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Posted - 2005.10.18 20:09:00 -
[7]
Cant say Im surprised Grey Area. Cant have a constructive missile thread without them taking it over to drown out the ppl who are trying to get something accomplished. Everything always comes down to the raven this and the raven that. At least we can take consolation in the fact that Hammer saw it. He read it. He commented on it and promised to have a look at it himself. This in itself is great progress. The seed has been planted and all the Raven haters got here to late to drown it.
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xenorx
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Posted - 2005.10.19 13:37:00 -
[8]
Originally by: Hugh Ruka
Edited by: Hugh Ruka on 19/10/2005 11:04:53
Originally by: without
oh and the ppl saying stop talking about the raven its a missile thred. well the raven is a missile boat thus the descusion should include the raven and anything else that uses missiles
I give up ... realy.
The thing that strikes me with the Raven is the fact that there is so much debate about it. What I mean is there are so many ppl who go nuts posting how it is over powered and then there are the same number of ppl who go nuts saying that is not overpowered. To me this indicates that it is pretty close to being balanced. It might need a tweek here or there but for the most part if it were totally off there wouldn't be much debate about it at all.
Having said that when looking at the rest of the missiles there is very little debate at all. Most ppl agree that heavy missiles and lights are in need of work. I think this speaks volumes.
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xenorx
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Posted - 2005.10.20 02:14:00 -
[9]
Originally by: Joerd Toastius
Turning lights into a cruiser weapon will just screw frigate balance
They have already been made into a cruiser weapon. The Assault launcher fires them. They are the short range cruiser missile. Of course they are WAY underpowered for that role IMO. Even using them against frigates is not very good. Outside of web range a MWD frigate will not take reasonable damage and they do laughable damage to cruisers.
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