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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 4 post(s) |
Kael D'mende
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Posted - 2005.10.13 21:46:00 -
[1]
Well im one, so im a bit conserned about the new tanking skills, since its pretty well known that projectiles do high burst damage, but low dot/dps.
With the new tanking system, it would be smarter to use a more dps gun now would'nt it ?
I for one sure hopes that ccp has taken this into there consideration, or projtiles will be pretty useless imo.. but i could be wrong ?
any thoughts ?
/Kael
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SengH
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Posted - 2005.10.13 21:52:00 -
[2]
well we also get screwed in that we have to train all 8 skills to get full effect as half of our ships armor tank... the other half shield tank. Everyone else only has to train 4 at the max.
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dalman
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Posted - 2005.10.13 21:54:00 -
[3]
Yes, you are wrong.
Longer fights = cap mean more. And as we all know minmatar don't use cap for guns.
1400 tempests will still be of big use in fleet battles thanks to their great range.
Autocannon tempest may be the best close range ship.
Typhoon has obviously been VERY gimped by not being able to fit a "gank setup" and will hence be much better off with the changes.
(from your post it seems you're talking about battleships)
Drink up, shoot in. Let the beating begin.
Distributor of pain. Your loss becomes my gain...
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Hllaxiu
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Posted - 2005.10.13 22:04:00 -
[4]
Theres two reasons for flying minmatar from what I see:
1. 1400s (*720s - Muninn can be mean)
2. I believe that annoying Mazda ad has it nailed exactly... "zoom zoom"
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Kael D'mende
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Posted - 2005.10.13 22:04:00 -
[5]
 Originally by: dalman
Yes, you are wrong.
Longer fights = cap mean more. And as we all know minmatar don't use cap for guns.
1400 tempests will still be of big use in fleet battles thanks to their great range.
Autocannon tempest may be the best close range ship.
Typhoon has obviously been VERY gimped by not being able to fit a "gank setup" and will hence be much better off with the changes.
(from your post it seems you're talking about battleships)
ya sorta talking about BS's but the rest of the ships will be gimped aswell imo.. take a muninn vs. zealot for instance, zealot has insane rof while the muninn is good but not heavy on it..
if better tank, dot is needed right ?
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Professor McFly
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Posted - 2005.10.13 22:53:00 -
[6]
Edited by: Professor McFly on 13/10/2005 22:53:25
If 3 or more ships are still good after the changes, then it will be used as an excuse for why the other Min ships suck. Especially if one of the good ones is a BS.
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Maya Rkell
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Posted - 2005.10.13 23:11:00 -
[7]
Edited by: Maya Rkell on 13/10/2005 23:10:38
Exactly, Minmatar ships which can snipe will be used for ganks everything else will get passed by. Including some of the best ships in today's Eve, unfortunately.
"Corpse cannot be fitted onto ship. Only hardware modules can be fitted." |
Agnar Koladrov
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Posted - 2005.10.13 23:27:00 -
[8]
The changes aren`t final yet, atleast not that I have heard. So best is to wait and see and test changes on SISI untill they reveil the final stats.
But I share your concern. Though I do not yet do PvP, I do think the burst dmg of arties can be a major downfall if the current changes go though. And I am not even talking about sniped 1400II Tempest, or tecII ships, but anything below those two.
Anyway, in PvE things are fine, my only concern is in PvP and ship classes lower the bs/tec2 ships.
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Necrologic
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Posted - 2005.10.13 23:41:00 -
[9]
Yes, this is going to make minmatar suck again. The dot on arties is already to terrible to use them except on tempest with a gank kit. None of their other ships make a decent arty platform, especially without alot of dmg mods. Also minmatar ships can't tank really. Even though their guns take no cap, their crappy base cap cancels that out when compared to other ships. And of course blasters > autos anyway.
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Kael D'mende
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Posted - 2005.10.14 00:43:00 -
[10]
it just seems to me that ccp is trying to ballance the game but dont think about the overall picture, and minm ships are the most skill dependent of em all, since "we" are a kind of mix match, but thats ok .. just means we have more options etc. but to bring something that will make our guns far less effective than missiles is something i hope ccp will spend some time on, what is great damage if its worthless.. i take lasers over proj any day then, no ammo and high dps :O/
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Goberth Ludwig
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Posted - 2005.10.14 00:49:00 -
[11]
Well I like minnies ships for the speed and damage types, and that isnt getting nerfed - I am not a big expert of minnie ships because I have just started specializing in them but the reason they work for me, especially against tech II ships is the damage type modulation and the fact they get me to places faster (I love those speed bonuses).
- Gob (also known as Admiral Goberius) |
Foomanshoe
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Posted - 2005.10.14 01:18:00 -
[12]
At least people cant tank against you specifically since you do all 4 damage types. 
_______________________________________________
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Rivek
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Posted - 2005.10.14 01:44:00 -
[13]
Edited by: Rivek on 14/10/2005 01:45:54
I dont understand why people moan about changes they dont understand. Post some well reasoned arguments backed by DPS vs hp/sec and hp/cap figures for different ships with different (fitable) setups and you might carry some weight.
For example:
Tempest with 6x 1400mm scouts using emp ammo, 3x t2 dmg mods, maxed skills aside from gun specialization, can theoretically pull 410 dps. Change those guns to 800mm scouts and it goes to ~575 dps. That doesnt exactly suck and in the short range case, it will break dual rep tanks.
Compare it to the Megathron. A mega, with max skills aside from gun specs, 7x 425mm proto rails, AM ammo, and 3 dmg mods will do ~465 dps. The tempest falls behind over all in dps but does more dps per gun, more burst damage, can vary its damage type, has an extra highslot free, and uses no cap to fire. A mega with same setup as above except with 7x modal neutrons will pull ~715 dps. More than the tempest. Again however it cant change its damage types, it uses loads of cap to fire, it has a bit less range, a bit more tracking, 1 less free highslot.
To say "projectile dps sucks" or "without 6 damge mods stacked up my dps sucks" or "i cant waste tanked bs in 3.0245 seconds anymore" is either being ignorant or just missing the point.
Edit: As a side note, I can fly all races BS aside from Minmitar which I am training for currently because I like the tempest and drool over the machariel (and have tested the tempest on Sisi before).
See your name in lights at TunDraGon.com |
Naughty Boy
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Posted - 2005.10.14 01:59:00 -
[14]
Edited by: Naughty Boy on 14/10/2005 02:05:16
Edited by: Naughty Boy on 14/10/2005 02:01:12
Originally by: Foomanshoe
At least people cant tank against you specifically since you do all 4 damage types.
Aye... They don't need to tank you specifically, they just tank you.
The tempest will probably still be good after the changes, but just look at this:
current standard apoc tank with t2 stuffs: can tank 409 dps in average, or roughly 375 if the minmatar opponent is using the ammo type (emp ammo) See here.
Current gank-tempest can do 555 dps, with maxed skills and 5 gyro t2 using emp ammo.
Now, consider that after the changes the apoc get 15% more resistances and that the new stacking penalty is such that the fifth gyro is useless (its not exactly like that, i suppose, but let's just show how it goes). The apoc now tanks 481 dps on average (roughly 440 facing emp ammo) and the tempest does 495 dps. The extra 55 dps will go through the hardened 6000 + 25% armor in 6-7 minutes factoring the "burst damage" effect .
So far, we can tell that the fight is during longer than usual. But, had the tempest been a bit less skilled or use for whatever reason one less gyro, then he's likely to shoot forever, burst damage or not, flexible damage type or not.
Sure, not every minmatar ship is a tempest and not every tanking ship is an apoc. Sure, that's an hypothetical 1 vs 1 between a short range BS and a long range BS. But it shows at least one thing, which is that the burst damage of artillery is less to be feared by ships of the same class for multiple reasons.
I think that more hp, but less of this resistance boost, would not be as bad for minmatar ships, as i tried to point out in the other thread.
Sincerly Yours, The Naughty Boy.
---
"And no, a myriad of "waaah you nerfed [...]" posts aren't enough to make us change things. Hard numbers and facts are [...]" CCP Hammer. |
Kael D'mende
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Posted - 2005.10.14 02:17:00 -
[15]
Edited by: Kael D''mende on 14/10/2005 02:18:06
ignorant ey :O(
well im not to much into the math of whats what in eve tbh, but thats not the same as not knowing how stuff works.. ;o)
the tempest aint the only ship a minm can fly though, what about the rest of em ?
and i really cant see why minm pilots have to fit gyros just to be able to hit hard enough to even bother stay in the fight.. and please enough with the cap issue, minm ships have crappy cap on there ships :O)
im not trying to "ohh no wtf" or what ever, it just seems to me that the tanking ships with high rof guns "lasers for instance" will be ³ber.. i figure if thats the "trend" prices on apocs will increase severly.
If its as i think it will be then i for one will abandon minm ships and train for amarr. zealot, sacri and apoc comes to mind ;O) since muninn, phoon and temp will be useless (most of the time) compaired
/kael
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j0sephine
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Posted - 2005.10.14 02:23:00 -
[16]
"Now, consider that after the changes the apoc get 15% more resistances (..)"
It doesn't... your calculations are based on active tech.2 tank (with maxed out all relevant skills) and active hardeners receive the passive resistance boost only while they're turned off..? ^^
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Naughty Boy
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Posted - 2005.10.14 02:34:00 -
[17]
Originally by: j0sephine
It doesn't... your calculations are based on active tech.2 tank (with maxed out all relevant skills) and active hardeners receive the passive resistance boost only while they're turned off..? ^^
That's right, the 15% is coming out of nowhere, i used it just to show what would happen with improved resists. I have to admit, with what happened to the stacking penalty on the test server, i didn't check lately which kind of resistances and active repairing could be get using the new/improved modules and skills. It was just to show how even a small boost to resistances overall would change things. It's not the result of recent testing, just some math to show how things would work and how they would affect artillery more than high dps, low burst damage weapons.
Sincerly Yours, The Naughty Boy.
---
"And no, a myriad of "waaah you nerfed [...]" posts aren't enough to make us change things. Hard numbers and facts are [...]" CCP Hammer. |
Sarkos
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Posted - 2005.10.14 02:35:00 -
[18]
So what's wrong with a Vagabond using autocannons? High DOT/DPS, can load PP-m and EMP-M giving damage over every damage type, is fast and can tank. I don't understand your concern. Even a Typhoon rigged with 4x 800mm and 4x Heavy NOS will still be awesome.
Wait and see before crying in your Brutor ale.
Sarkos
Either free the slaves or we will come and get them.
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Cerberal
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Posted - 2005.10.14 03:06:00 -
[19]
I think i saw somewhere that structure tanking was gonna be a big thing too in the next patch.
Now i think you should read the description on the typhoon.
Also im not gonna whine about any changes, its gonna effect everyone in some way or another (the missile patch even effected me because i loved lobbing heavy missiles at frigates to kill em one hit). And i do believe the dev's balance everything for the best. Instead of looking from a PVP aspect, ill look from a PVE aspect too, it might make ratting easier since we can tank longer.
I'unno, just have to wait n see i guess.
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Maya Rkell
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Posted - 2005.10.14 03:09:00 -
[20]
Edited by: Maya Rkell on 14/10/2005 03:11:39
Originally by: Sarkos
So what's wrong with a Vagabond using autocannons? High DOT/DPS, can load PP-m and EMP-M giving damage over every damage type, is fast and can tank. I don't understand your concern. Even a Typhoon rigged with 4x 800mm and 4x Heavy NOS will still be awesome.
Wait and see before crying in your Brutor ale.
Sarkos
Tank..without plates or extenders? Heh. So...
Originally by: dalman
Yes, you are wrong.
Longer fights = cap mean more. And as we all know minmatar don't use cap for guns.
Yea, but even taking that in, Minmatar cap is STILL low. This hurts for the sort of extended tanking which longer combat promotes. And remember several our frigs are losing speed.
"Corpse cannot be fitted onto ship. Only hardware modules can be fitted." |
Pestillence
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Posted - 2005.10.14 04:59:00 -
[21]
I see fights turning into cap battles.
No cap = Gallente and amarr lose their primary weapons (except the ishtar and domi i suppose)
In this case it's fair that Minnie have slightly less cap than other races.
For sure, its going to change combat a lot. I cant pretend to understand all the implications and balance tweaks that are needed.
I do think pre-emptive whining is a bit silly tho.
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Soulita
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Posted - 2005.10.14 05:32:00 -
[22]
Originally by: Pestillence
No cap = Gallente and amarr lose their primary weapons (except the ishtar and domi i suppose)
 - Of course domis need cap...
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Rivek
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Posted - 2005.10.14 05:34:00 -
[23]
I dont mean to criticize the OP. Sorry if you felt I was attacking you. I just tire of the "X sucks -boost it" and "Y ftw - nerf it" posts that have no backing aside from an anecdote or some random guy's gut feeling.
See your name in lights at TunDraGon.com |
Pestillence
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Posted - 2005.10.14 05:51:00 -
[24]
Originally by: Soulita
Originally by: Pestillence
No cap = Gallente and amarr lose their primary weapons (except the ishtar and domi i suppose)
- Of course domis need cap...
Drones need cap?
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Wrayeth
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Posted - 2005.10.14 06:07:00 -
[25]
LOL, domis can just steal someone else's cap if they need it. They can inflict excellent damage without fitting a single turret and nos the hell our of the poor vict...er...bast...er...person, for enough energy to sustain an amazing tank.
-Wrayeth
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dalman
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Posted - 2005.10.14 07:40:00 -
[26]
Originally by: Necrologic
Yes, this is going to make minmatar suck again. The dot on arties is already to terrible to use them except on tempest with a gank kit. None of their other ships make a decent arty platform, especially without alot of dmg mods. Also minmatar ships can't tank really. Even though their guns take no cap, their crappy base cap cancels that out when compared to other ships. And of course blasters > autos anyway.
You don't fly gallente ships, do you?
Take a look at the cap on a megathron vs a tempest. And then at how much cap is left after you also factor in how much the guns use.
"And of course blasters > autos anyway". UHHHHH? Plz tell me why.
Autocannons have higher damagemod/ROF than blasters. Only thanks to the 48 vs 44 base ammo do the blasters put out slightly more damage. But I'd trade my kin/thermal combo for your EM/exp combo any day.
Also, range * tracking is ALOT better on autocannons than blasters so they hit better.
And then you also have to look at fitting reqs. And plz note that tempest and mega has pretty much the same cpu/grid.
Drink up, shoot in. Let the beating begin.
Distributor of pain. Your loss becomes my gain...
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dalman
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Posted - 2005.10.14 07:44:00 -
[27]
Originally by: Wrayeth
LOL, domis can just steal someone else's cap if they need it. They can inflict excellent damage without fitting a single turret and nos the hell our of the poor vict...er...bast...er...person, for enough energy to sustain an amazing tank.
Have you tried it yourself?
You should take a look at the powergrid on a domi and how much grid a nosferatu takes.
Drink up, shoot in. Let the beating begin.
Distributor of pain. Your loss becomes my gain...
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Necrologic
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Posted - 2005.10.14 08:07:00 -
[28]
Originally by: dalman
Originally by: Necrologic
Yes, this is going to make minmatar suck again. The dot on arties is already to terrible to use them except on tempest with a gank kit. None of their other ships make a decent arty platform, especially without alot of dmg mods. Also minmatar ships can't tank really. Even though their guns take no cap, their crappy base cap cancels that out when compared to other ships. And of course blasters > autos anyway.
You don't fly gallente ships, do you?
Take a look at the cap on a megathron vs a tempest. And then at how much cap is left after you also factor in how much the guns use.
"And of course blasters > autos anyway". UHHHHH? Plz tell me why.
Autocannons have higher damagemod/ROF than blasters. Only thanks to the 48 vs 44 base ammo do the blasters put out slightly more damage. But I'd trade my kin/thermal combo for your EM/exp combo any day.
Also, range * tracking is ALOT better on autocannons than blasters so they hit better.
And then you also have to look at fitting reqs. And plz note that tempest and mega has pretty much the same cpu/grid.
On the contrary, i fly mostly Gallente, but i admit i do have limited experiance with the mega. I'm talking mostly from my experiance with ceptors and hacs. Yes, i am exaggerating when i say minmatar crappy base cap is cancels out their no cap weapons, but not by a huge amount. And yes, blasters are better than autos at putting out damage. They have better dps, and the advantage of projectile ammo doesn't quite make up for it most of the time. The low fitting on projectiles is nice, but the largest ones tend to get about the same dps as the medium sized blasters (or less). I think we all know a deimos out damages a vaga or muninn and a taranis a claw (but by less) and a thorax a rupture, and brutix a cyclone.
I'm not saying these changes shouldn't happen, but it would be nice to see a very small boost to minmatar (mainly arties) to offset it.
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Khaldorn Murino
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Posted - 2005.10.14 08:31:00 -
[29]
Originally by: dalman
Yes, you are wrong.
Longer fights = cap mean more. And as we all know minmatar don't use cap for guns.
1400 tempests will still be of big use in fleet battles thanks to their great range.
Autocannon tempest may be the best close range ship.
Typhoon has obviously been VERY gimped by not being able to fit a "gank setup" and will hence be much better off with the changes.
(from your post it seems you're talking about battleships)
Our ships have, i believe, the worst cap and recharge rate going. And our slots arent usually set for a decent tank either way, and our HP is usuall split.
So, while our guns use minmal/no cap. Our tank eats cap, and ergo (gotta love that little snobby word) due to low DOT/DPS we may still be shooting, on structure.
I think thats the point he's trying to make, dunno how its going to play out, but i think thats his fear of a possible scenario.
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Just a simple warrior.
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Khaldorn Murino
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Posted - 2005.10.14 08:33:00 -
[30]
Originally by: Foomanshoe
At least people cant tank against you specifically since you do all 4 damage types.
There is a big equation there my friend, we cant simply choose any damage type and cause the same damage, look at our ammo.
Besides, so can missiles? And they do the same damagte no matter what type they choose.
-
Just a simple warrior.
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