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Sicyon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
3
   |
Posted - 2013.05.15 10:34:00 -
[1] - Quote
In one of the dev blogs it says the current skills for exploration will be lowered from level 3 to level 1 (see below)
Astrometrics:
This is now a starting skill, all new characters receive this at Level 1
Added +5% scan strength, -5% max scan deviation and -0.5 sec scan time per level
Not sure if the other " support" skills for exploration will be affected as well.
I have not seen any reports of how the people that already trained Astrometrics to level V will be compensated, if at all.
Might I suggest that all current SP in Astrometrics and the "support" skills (Astrometrics Rangefinding etc.) will be set to 0 in the summer expansion and everyone recieves their SP invested in those skills as unallocated skillpoints. |
Elena Thiesant
Sun Micro Systems
329
|
Posted - 2013.05.15 10:38:00 -
[2] - Quote
Why do you want skill reimbursement?
The skill is still useful, it will still exist (with the same multiplier), it will still have benefit in that it boosts your scanning ability, increasing strength, reducing time and deviation. |
Sicyon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
3
|
Posted - 2013.05.15 10:59:00 -
[3] - Quote
Elena Thiesant wrote:Why do you want skill reimbursement?
The skill is still useful, it will still exist (with the same multiplier), it will still have benefit in that it boosts your scanning ability, increasing strength, reducing time and deviation.
Because people who have trained it have invested 3x more SP in the skills. This training time loss should be compensated.
When the BC and BS changes hit all you see and hear was what you needed to do (skill training wise) before the summer patch. For the changes in the exploration skills no word about skill changes anywhere until the recent clarification in the dev blog.
People who started training in anticipation of the summer patch are actually going to lose a substantial amount of SP, just like me. I started training Astrometrics to level V on all my chars only to discover recently they not only changed the skill description but also the skill level (from 3 to 1). All who started to train Astrometrics in anticipation of the summer patch are basicly getting only 1/3 of their investment in return.
This should have been made clearer much earlier. |
crazy0146
Boris Johnson's Love Children
6
|
Posted - 2013.05.15 11:08:00 -
[4] - Quote
Train Reading comprehension to at least level IV.
They are not changing the training time modifier the only thing they are changing is a brand new character will have Astrometrics already trained to level I.
So the training time modifier will still be 3x not 1x. |
Elena Thiesant
Sun Micro Systems
329
|
Posted - 2013.05.15 11:13:00 -
[5] - Quote
Sicyon wrote:Elena Thiesant wrote:Why do you want skill reimbursement?
The skill is still useful, it will still exist (with the same multiplier), it will still have benefit in that it boosts your scanning ability, increasing strength, reducing time and deviation. Because people who have trained it have invested 3x more SP in the skills. This training time loss should be compensated. .
What training time loss?
New players get one level of the skill for free, that's maybe 10 minutes of training that they get that we had to do.
They're not changing the skill multiplier to 1, they're giving new characters 1 level of the skill automatically, that's all. The skill will still require exactly the same number of sp after the change as before, same training time. |
Cutlass Claire
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
10
|
Posted - 2013.05.15 11:26:00 -
[6] - Quote
Actualy, OP does raise a point although he doesn't grasp the changes fully.
People who have trained all their Astrometrics support skills will see their effectiveness reduced. Currently Astrometrics will give you 1 more active probe. I know lots who haven't trained that to level V but did train Astrometrics support skills to level V. You don't need Astrometrics to lvl V, scanning with 5 probes works fine.
If I read the DEV blog correctly these Astrometrics support skills will be less effective (in most cases things like Astrometric Rangefinding and such the skill bonus will go from 10% per skill level to 5% per skill level).
To get to the current level of effectiveness they now need to train Astrometrics as well. Not exactly what the OP is implying but still something to look into. |
Daniel Plain
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
1089
|
Posted - 2013.05.15 12:38:00 -
[7] - Quote
if the numbers stay the way they are, any skill point you invested in any probing support skill is pretty much wasted. in the current SiSi build, you can scan down all but the weakest signatures with an unbonused ship, t1 scanner and t1 probes if you have trained astrometrics 3 and no support skills.
now add the new exploration modules, astrometrics 5, a bonused ship, sisters gear and a virtue set and you can probably scan any sig to 100% in under 20 seconds.
"I don't troll, I just give overly blunt responses that annoy people who are wrong but don't want to admit it. It's not my fault that people have sensitive feelings" -MXZF |
Cutlass Claire
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
10
|
Posted - 2013.05.15 13:14:00 -
[8] - Quote
Daniel Plain wrote:if the numbers stay the way they are, any skill point you invested in any probing support skill is pretty much wasted. in the current SiSi build, you can scan down all but the weakest signatures with an unbonused ship, t1 scanner and t1 probes if you have trained astrometrics 3 and no support skills.
now add the new exploration modules, astrometrics 5, a bonused ship, sisters gear and a virtue set and you can probably scan any sig to 100% in under 20 seconds.
True, with the new summer patch there will be additional items for mid slots (not sure about the low slots) that will enhance scanning. People who have trained all there Astrometric support skills to level V will basicly be "overskilled" after the patch.
Those that have, better start sceaming FIRE now or CCP will not reimburse you anything  |
Nagnor
The Happy Shooters
17
|
Posted - 2013.05.15 14:28:00 -
[9] - Quote
Daniel Plain wrote:if the numbers stay the way they are, any skill point you invested in any probing support skill is pretty much wasted. in the current SiSi build, you can scan down all but the weakest signatures with an unbonused ship, t1 scanner and t1 probes if you have trained astrometrics 3 and no support skills.
now add the new exploration modules, astrometrics 5, a bonused ship, sisters gear and a virtue set and you can probably scan any sig to 100% in under 20 seconds.
Don't think so. Maybe more sites can be scanned down faster, but not all sites to 100% in under 20 sec. Besides who says that everybody is going full monty on imps and gear. The high level of those skills might provide less additional value, but are clearly not worthless.
Don't hold your breath waiting for CCP to give in. Past actions on similar situations show that CCP don't do those reimbursments unless the requirements become completely conflicting. I experienced it myself with the Mining barge change. As a then new player investments in rigs costed me a significant portion of my ISK. With the barges changed to use Ore hold instead of regular cargo hold, the cargo rigs became a lot less effective and partically of no value(unless you want to store >50 mining crystals). Nevertheless CCP won't unrig them because they had still a little bit of use. |
Marsan
Emergency and I
102
|
Posted - 2013.05.15 16:32:00 -
[10] - Quote
The scaning skills are still useful in game. For example it means with all my skills trained up to level 4-5. I can be very effective in a standard ship rather always needing to switch out to my pimped up covert opsfor scanning. Also it's still pretty hard to scan down other ships and your scan skills are critical to combat scanning.
PS- The people who have the right to be outraged are the people with a lot of isk in sister core probes, and scanning rigs, but that's eve for you.
Former forum cheerleader CCP, now just a hopeful small portion of the community. |
Baggo Hammers
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
27
|
Posted - 2013.05.15 16:59:00 -
[11] - Quote
Having a dedicated scan toon, I do find it lame that they have really made all the time spent training wasted. And it was. But I suspect I will live. I am just a bit leery of the direction CCP is taking in their business model. |
Haulie Berry
723
|
Posted - 2013.05.15 17:24:00 -
[12] - Quote
Daniel Plain wrote: in the current SiSi build, you can scan down all but the weakest signatures with an unbonused ship, t1 scanner and t1 probes if you have trained astrometrics 3 and no support skills.
While I agree (and have posted several times in the test feedback thread suggesting this) that sigs should be weakened or otherwise made harder (in terms of the game math) to scan down, characterizing this as a significant departure from the current situation on TQ is disingenuous. It requires a trivial amount of SPs and fitting compromises to scan down all but the hardest sigs now, and it still will after the patch.
You're also implicitly suggesting that the ability to do it at all is equivalent to the ability to do it quickly and efficiently, rendering any skill or bonus beyond the bare necessity to 100% a sig moot. This is intellectually dishonest. Being able to scan a sig down faster/in fewer attempts still provides additional value beyond simply being able to pinpoint it at all.
I agree with the general notion that sigs - PvE sigs in particular - are too easy to pinpoint now. I agree that this should be addressed in some way. I don't agree with this hyperbolic nonsense that it renders the support skills worthless, however, and no, nobody deserves a refund for this, just as they do not deserve a refund for any other gameplay change that alters the value of a skill.
Datacore farmers did not get a refund when they nerfed that. Titan pilots didn't get a refund when they changed DDs. SB pilots didn't get their cruise missile skills refunded when they changed to torps.
It does not matter that you FEEL the skill is no longer of use. The fact is that it still does something in the game and can still be of benefit to you. Get over it. |
Cutlass Claire
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
10
|
Posted - 2013.05.15 18:22:00 -
[13] - Quote
Haulie Berry wrote:SB pilots didn't get their cruise missile skills refunded when they changed to torps.
Bad example IMO, cruise missiles are getting a realy huge buff coming summer patch |
Haulie Berry
723
|
Posted - 2013.05.15 18:24:00 -
[14] - Quote
Cutlass Claire wrote:Haulie Berry wrote:SB pilots didn't get their cruise missile skills refunded when they changed to torps. Bad example IMO, cruise missiles are getting a realy huge buff coming summer patch
How does that pertain to a stealth bomber change from, what, 4? 5? years ago, exactly?
Are you high, or just too new to know what I was talking about? |
Sicyon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
3
|
Posted - 2013.05.15 18:46:00 -
[15] - Quote
I see the thread has derailed already.
Just out of curiousity, will the bonuses on the current exploring ships (like the probe) and their T2 counterparts change with the upcoming patch? |
Haulie Berry
723
|
Posted - 2013.05.15 18:50:00 -
[16] - Quote
Sicyon wrote:I see the thread has derailed already.
Just out of curiousity, will the bonuses on the current exploring ships (like the probe) and their T2 counterparts change with the upcoming patch?
No, it was pretty much off the rails to begin with and, as the OP, that's mostly your fault.
They are not changing the rank of the astrometrics skill.
It's still going to be a rank 3 skill. Level is not rank. Level is how many points you have in the skill. Rank is the skill's training time multiplier.
New characters will start with Astrometrics, the rank 3 skill, at level 1, which you interpreted as a reduction of rank. |
Chris Winter
Zephyr Corp
V.A.S.T.
100
|
Posted - 2013.05.15 19:16:00 -
[17] - Quote
The scanning support skills are now high-rank skills with very little usefulness. I always thought they were kind of over-ranked previously at 10%/level, now at only 5%/level there's not really much point in sinking a ton of training time into them... |
Sicyon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
3
|
Posted - 2013.05.15 20:50:00 -
[18] - Quote
Chris Winter wrote:The scanning support skills are now high-rank skills with very little usefulness. I always thought they were kind of over-ranked previously at 10%/level, now at only 5%/level there's not really much point in sinking a ton of training time into them...
Indeed. Just checked, Astrometric Rangefinding is a rank 8 skill and Astrometric Pinpointing and Acquisition are both rank 5 skills. Seeing their effectiveness will be halved and that having Astrometrics at level V is actualy enough it seems these skills are more or less obsolete. |
Andrew Indy
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
6
|
Posted - 2013.05.16 08:54:00 -
[19] - Quote
Sicyon wrote:Chris Winter wrote:The scanning support skills are now high-rank skills with very little usefulness. I always thought they were kind of over-ranked previously at 10%/level, now at only 5%/level there's not really much point in sinking a ton of training time into them... Indeed. Just checked, Astrometric Rangefinding is a rank 8 skill and Astrometric Pinpointing and Acquisition are both rank 5 skills. Seeing their effectiveness will be halved and that having Astrometrics at level V is actualy enough it seems these skills are more or less obsolete.
You could say the same thing about lots of skills and people still train them. Look at the spec skills , they are 2% per level and have a similar rank not too mention that there are tonnes of them.
When you are trying to scan some one down on a log off timer time precious . |
Mister Tuggles
Prime Numbers
41
|
Posted - 2013.05.16 09:42:00 -
[20] - Quote
The probing skills look to be getting hit HARD with the nerf bat. Astrometric Rangefinding's (you know, the rank 8 skill) effective bonus is being HALVED! 27+ days of training to get it to level 5, and it is being bent over and raped by the nerf bat. Sucks for people that trained it. |
Zor'katar
Matari Recreation
63
|
Posted - 2013.05.16 12:47:00 -
[21] - Quote
Mister Tuggles wrote:The probing skills look to be getting hit HARD with the nerf bat. Astrometric Rangefinding's (you know, the rank 8 skill) effective bonus is being HALVED! 27+ days of training to get it to level 5, and it is being bent over and raped by the nerf bat. Sucks for people that trained it.
*shrug* I'm currently training Rangefinding V, and I will continue to train it. Why?
Haulie Berry wrote:Being able to scan a sig down faster/in fewer attempts still provides additional value beyond simply being able to pinpoint it at all.
That's why. The value of the support skills may be getting reduced, but they still have value. |
Haulie Berry
726
|
Posted - 2013.05.16 13:21:00 -
[22] - Quote
Mister Tuggles wrote:The probing skills look to be getting hit HARD with the nerf bat. Astrometric Rangefinding's (you know, the rank 8 skill) effective bonus is being HALVED! 27+ days of training to get it to level 5, and it is being bent over and raped by the nerf bat. Sucks for people that trained it.
I have it at 5.
My major takeaway from this is that, since I also have astrometrics at 5, my probe strength bonus from skills is going from 1.5 to 1.5625 (1.25^2).
This is, indeed, pretty terrible for me.
I don't know how I'll find the strength to go on. |
Julius Priscus
110
|
Posted - 2013.05.20 18:15:00 -
[23] - Quote
Sicyon wrote:Elena Thiesant wrote:Why do you want skill reimbursement?
The skill is still useful, it will still exist (with the same multiplier), it will still have benefit in that it boosts your scanning ability, increasing strength, reducing time and deviation. Because people who have trained it have invested 3x more SP in the skills. This training time loss should be compensated..
NO !
skill reimbursement is only for when skills are being REMOVED from characters.
so try to stop being a total greedy emo moron.
and this is NOT a personal attack its a suggestion.
-»\_(pâä)_/-»-á Sup cracka ! |
Swordfingers
Questionable Ethics.
Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
44
|
Posted - 2013.05.21 18:20:00 -
[24] - Quote
ITT a bunch of carebears not appreciating competitive advantage. I mean, seriously guys. If you're combat scanning, every fraction of a second is worth even a month+ time of training. And being able to scan quicker is a boon even in pve side of game. |
Karak Bol
Crepuscular
83
|
Posted - 2013.05.22 06:20:00 -
[25] - Quote
Seriously, someone who trained all scanning skills to V will be off better after this skill. 1.05*1.05 > 1.1 and then you have access to the T2 modules. Lots of crying about getting buffed. People are weird... |
Marsan
Caldari Provisions
106
|
Posted - 2013.05.24 20:18:00 -
[26] - Quote
I think they are whining about the fact that the undeserving pubies who haven't trained their skills to 5 are getting buffed, and those of us who invested ungodly amounts of time in skill training are going to less uber compared to them. To which personally I don't really care how uber I am. As the overall changes will make my scanning easier, and Lord knows scanning sigs is boring once you've figured it, and done it 50+ times.
Former forum cheerleader CCP, now just a hopeful small portion of the community. |
Ireland VonVicious
Vendetta Syndicate
135
|
Posted - 2013.05.25 06:44:00 -
[27] - Quote
Compared to the corn cob CCP pulled on the ninja community when they changed the scanning system this is nothing.
You went from scanning everything down at once and picking where to warp within seconds to our current system.
I'm glad to see they are pulling back on the big nerf to what was once a large part of EVE.
Old school is the best school! |
Thorleifer
Yeti Cave
8
|
Posted - 2013.05.27 00:27:00 -
[28] - Quote
So let's recap this thread now.
Pie is good and CAKE IS A LIE! |
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