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Harry Forever
SpaceJunkys
40
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Posted - 2013.05.16 18:16:00 -
[1] - Quote
normally a manufactured ship should be at least 20-50% more expensive, it seems like the manufacturers do not want to have a margin on what they do, for me it does not make sense to manufacture if selling the raw material gives the same profit OMG! the asteroid is depleted! |
Optimus Junkis
Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic
0
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Posted - 2013.05.16 18:20:00 -
[2] - Quote
Your assuming that everybody has the set of skills you have. Some people have a number of skills at 5 that decrease the amount of material needed to make said ships. Trust me i have a indy toon and i make a nice profit :) |
Harry Forever
SpaceJunkys
40
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Posted - 2013.05.16 18:23:00 -
[3] - Quote
Optimus Junkis wrote:Your assuming that everybody has the set of skills you have. Some people have a number of skills at 5 that decrease the amount of material needed to make said ships. Trust me i have a indy toon and i make a nice profit :)
ah ok, so for what premium do you seel the ship vs. material cost? +20%? just rough i would like to know... OMG! the asteroid is depleted! |
Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises
1409
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Posted - 2013.05.16 19:07:00 -
[4] - Quote
depends on the ship.
And bear in mind, there are still stockpiles of some ships from before they had a chunk added to their material costs. Steve Ronuken for CSM 9!-á I'm starting early :) Handy tools and an SDE conversion Twitter: @fuzzysteve on Twitter |
Vanchelon
Aurum Aquila
1
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Posted - 2013.05.16 19:08:00 -
[5] - Quote
There are some special cases though, outside the realm of skills and material efficiency.
With some tech 1 ships, especially cruisers, it's also the case that they are below current production costs, because the materials were increased when the ships were given a substantial buff. I.e a cruiser might have cost 4m to build before, but now it costs 8m and you notice the market price is say, 6m. This is because people stocked up on a LOT of ships before the change, and as such theres a large stockpile out there that people are still getting rid of.
Procurers are another example, the old cost was ~3 million, the new cost is around 22 million. Currently they go for 8 million and they've been around that price for the past 5 months :)
The same thing will happen with Dominixes, Armageddons, Typhoons and Scorpions. Currently the production cost is ~80 million and come Odyssey on june 4th, the new production cost will be around 170-190m due to buffs to the ships themselves. As such, after june 4th, noone will be building these for a very very long time, until the stockpiles run out :)
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Rengerel en Distel
Amarr Science and Industry
1467
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Posted - 2013.05.16 19:19:00 -
[6] - Quote
you could probably also google "minerals i mine are free" for another reason/discussion.
With the increase in shiptoasting, the Report timer needs to be shortened.
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Riyal
Fluffles Inc.
89
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Posted - 2013.05.16 19:40:00 -
[7] - Quote
Other than the aforementioned mineral changes;
All the cool kids want to build ships. |
Drachiel
Mercury LLC
18
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Posted - 2013.05.16 21:04:00 -
[8] - Quote
The usual margin on industry is between 10% and 20%
However, the ships have their own (minor) price swings and trends which are independent of mineral prices
The reverse is also true, swings and trends in mineral prices may not affect a given ship without considerable delay
Dominix for example is VERY profitable to build right now and I envy all Domi BPO owners. |
Barakach
Jolly Codgers Get Off My Lawn
154
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Posted - 2013.05.16 21:04:00 -
[9] - Quote
Rengerel en Distel wrote:you could probably also google "minerals i mine are free" for another reason/discussion.
This.
People will mine minerals, build a ship, and less the ship at the same or lower price of the minerals at market price. |
Ruvin
124
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Posted - 2013.05.16 21:20:00 -
[10] - Quote
Vanchelon wrote:There are some special cases though, outside the realm of skills and material efficiency.
With some tech 1 ships, especially cruisers, it's also the case that they are below current production costs, because the materials were increased when the ships were given a substantial buff. I.e a cruiser might have cost 4m to build before, but now it costs 8m and you notice the market price is say, 6m. This is because people stocked up on a LOT of ships before the change, and as such theres a large stockpile out there that people are still getting rid of.
Procurers are another example, the old cost was ~3 million, the new cost is around 22 million. Currently they go for 8 million and they've been around that price for the past 5 months :)
The same thing will happen with Dominixes, Armageddons, Typhoons and Scorpions. Currently the production cost is ~80 million and come Odyssey on june 4th, the new production cost will be around 170-190m due to buffs to the ships themselves. As such, after june 4th, noone will be building these for a very very long time, until the stockpiles run out :)
with cheap ships was easy , and people really bought A LOT of them ... wonder how many BS are stockpiled in player's hand's :)) Opportunities multiply as they are seized. |
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Implying Implications
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
355
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Posted - 2013.05.16 22:04:00 -
[11] - Quote
Mining your own minerals helps keep costs down so you can undercut the market. sÅ»µä¢püäpü»µ¡út+¬pÇé |
Airto TLA
Puppeteers of Doom
35
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Posted - 2013.05.16 22:11:00 -
[12] - Quote
ONe last issue, is it maybe easier to make a ship and fly it to the local trade hub than it is to haul the minerals to the hub, so you can buy the minerals cheaper locally using buy orders, build ship and fly ship to hub, fly shuttle back. So these people are using 10-20 off of local BUY orders, Rather than HUB Sell orders. |
Tau Cabalander
Retirement Retreat Working Stiffs
1829
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Posted - 2013.05.17 00:01:00 -
[13] - Quote
Aside from ship changes that increased costs, so people mass-produced huge numbers of ships before the changes took affect and can now sell below current cost yet still turn a profit, there exists three groups of people:
Group 1: For some reason, some people feel they have a right to a profit making whatever they want to make. They completely ignore the needs of the market (often driving down prices in the process), then come into the forums and complain that the world doesn't spin in their preferred direction.
Group 2: Then there is also the "it's a game crowd". They've posted that they don't care about making profits, because they just like building stuff. They are almost like the "Minerals I Mine Are Free" (MIMAF) crowd, except they do know what they are doing, but they just don't care. They don't put a value on their time.
Group 3: Lastly there is the MIMAF crowd. I like to think they simply don't know better, unlike group 2. |
Tauranon
Weeesearch
170
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Posted - 2013.05.17 00:23:00 -
[14] - Quote
Airto TLA wrote:ONe last issue, is it maybe easier to make a ship and fly it to the local trade hub than it is to haul the minerals to the hub, so you can buy the minerals cheaper locally using buy orders, build ship and fly ship to hub, fly shuttle back. So these people are using 10-20 off of local BUY orders, Rather than HUB Sell orders.
Ships get stacked into a freighter and dragged to the hub in bulk. buy orders for minerals at the hub are the same as buy orders for minerals elsewhere but they usually fill faster, and since the freighter is hauling to the hub anyway, hauling the mins back is not an issue - both way loads for a freighter are desirable. Although ships are smaller and thus could take less trips, if you do that, you add risk.
In fact my main efficiency issues is that one mineral won't fill and that one mineral will inevitably not be a highsec mineral. The next biggest efficiency issue is that I own more bpo's than I currently have characters building, and I own some currently unprofitable bpos, so I often have capital tied up in stuff that isn't making me money. |
Tauranon
Weeesearch
170
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Posted - 2013.05.17 00:26:00 -
[15] - Quote
Tau Cabalander wrote:Aside from ship changes that increased costs, so people mass-produced huge numbers of ships before the changes took affect and can now sell below current cost yet still turn a profit, there exists three groups of people:
Group 1: For some reason, some people feel they have a right to a profit making whatever they want to make. They completely ignore the needs of the market (often driving down prices in the process), then come into the forums and complain that the world doesn't spin in their preferred direction.
Group 2: Then there is also the "it's a game crowd". They've posted that they don't care about making profits, because they just like building stuff. They are almost like the "Minerals I Mine Are Free" (MIMAF) crowd, except they do know what they are doing, but they just don't care. They don't put a value on their time.
Group 3: Lastly there is the MIMAF crowd. I like to think they simply don't know better, unlike group 2.
None of those matter - MIMAFs and game builders, never have the capital to do suffcient construction to actually take up demand, and by not profit seeking effectively, they don't increase their capital base to the point where it will take up demand.
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Adunh Slavy
797
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Posted - 2013.05.17 00:26:00 -
[16] - Quote
Low barrier to entry. |
Marsan
Emergency and I
103
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Posted - 2013.05.17 01:04:00 -
[17] - Quote
In addition realize that mineral prices tend to go up and down a lot, and vary from place to place. Not mention the difference between buy and sell orders. So it's possible the minerals for a ship were bought at a lower price. In my experience tech 1 ships are generally sold at ~5% above mineral cost at most trade hubs. Former forum cheerleader CCP, now just a hopeful small portion of the community. |
Sir Marksalot
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
465
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Posted - 2013.05.17 04:00:00 -
[18] - Quote
Harry Forever wrote:normally a manufactured ship should be at least 20-50% more expensive, it seems like the manufacturers do not want to have a margin on what they do, for me it does not make sense to manufacture if selling the raw material gives the same profit
There's a very large amount of people who play this game and don't value their time at all. So they're willing to sell their goods at razor-thin margins. |
Mallak Azaria
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
2893
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Posted - 2013.05.17 04:12:00 -
[19] - Quote
Sir Marksalot wrote:Harry Forever wrote:normally a manufactured ship should be at least 20-50% more expensive, it seems like the manufacturers do not want to have a margin on what they do, for me it does not make sense to manufacture if selling the raw material gives the same profit There's a very large amount of people who play this game and don't value their time at all. So they're willing to sell their goods at razor-thin margins.
This happens in every game. People say that they gathered all the materials so they can sell it for whatever price they want. They don't value their time spent at all & often end up selling the item for less than what it costs to produce, lining someone else's pocket in the process. The guy who was sitting next to me in the first nullsec round table who had obviously not had a shower since before boarding his flight to Iceland, you really stank. You know who you are. |
Lemok Sonji
Odd Fluffy Bunnies
55
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Posted - 2013.05.17 07:58:00 -
[20] - Quote
You are also assuming that everyone are getting the minerals at market price.
Most high-sec corporations are giving their members a "ore buy program", which means their members mine, and the indy people are buying those minerals at market minus a certain percent, between 5 to 10. Add to that the manufacturing profit %, and you get those 10-20% profit margins.
Just a simple math. |
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Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises
1410
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Posted - 2013.05.17 10:17:00 -
[21] - Quote
Lemok Sonji wrote:You are also assuming that everyone are getting the minerals at market price.
Most high-sec corporations are giving their members a "ore buy program", which means their members mine, and the indy people are buying those minerals at market minus a certain percent, between 5 to 10. Add to that the manufacturing profit %, and you get those 10-20% profit margins.
Just a simple math.
And stupid math.
Because they could just resell the minerals at market prices.
MIMAF in another form. Steve Ronuken for CSM 9!-á I'm starting early :) Handy tools and an SDE conversion Twitter: @fuzzysteve on Twitter |
RJander
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1
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Posted - 2013.05.17 11:42:00 -
[22] - Quote
Steve Ronuken wrote:Lemok Sonji wrote:You are also assuming that everyone are getting the minerals at market price.
Most high-sec corporations are giving their members a "ore buy program", which means their members mine, and the indy people are buying those minerals at market minus a certain percent, between 5 to 10. Add to that the manufacturing profit %, and you get those 10-20% profit margins.
Just a simple math. And stupid math. Because they could just resell the minerals at market prices. MIMAF in another form.
Yep.. but not everybody are seeking for best return.. it's a deal between members.. "you do that form me, i do that for you" building some stuff like orca, missionship or mack (or whatever) for nothing or less.. and they are happy to do so together.. but you right, they can sell all the minerals et buy stuff from that money..
Other are just playing a pixelgame, and don't give a s*** about money.. just blowing stuff.. Not like guys in Market et S&I forum, who play this game because it's a permanent brainstorm and search for that
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Danari
Viziam Amarr Empire
9
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Posted - 2013.05.17 12:29:00 -
[23] - Quote
Going back the past six months, my GP% for some selected ships are:
Most profitable, Apoc, 7.9% Best GP, 2nd most profitable, Prophecy, 13.3% Most factory efficient, Abaddon, 5.7%
Of course, maxed skills, advanced processes around supply chain management, very well caplitalised. I do have rules in place to hold my ships back when margins or supply tighten, but given the Apoc is my #2 most profitable item overall I obviously don't hold back that much.
It's been interesting to see how modest the attempt to pick up BS at current margins to flip in June, and it isn't happening much. It wasn't worth it to me because I'll make more flipping minerals to ships over the many weeks than I would have made tying up the capital and waiting. I expect as the date gets closer that the anticipated price change will be built into the current price and I'll still be better off flipping for turnover at even higher margins. |
Quinzel Nikulainen
Kokako Acquisitions
220
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Posted - 2013.05.17 13:58:00 -
[24] - Quote
Steve Ronuken wrote:Lemok Sonji wrote:You are also assuming that everyone are getting the minerals at market price.
Most high-sec corporations are giving their members a "ore buy program", which means their members mine, and the indy people are buying those minerals at market minus a certain percent, between 5 to 10. Add to that the manufacturing profit %, and you get those 10-20% profit margins.
Just a simple math. And stupid math. Because they could just resell the minerals at market prices. MIMAF in another form.
This. This, this.
I was in the middle of trying to articulate why this was stupid and actually had a fairly comprehensive post written out, but then I became overcome with irrational anger and hurled my computer tower through the office window.
Now I'm fired.
******* MIMAF crowd. Ex-Kaalakiota citizen. Ex-Hyasyoda citizen. CEO of-áK+îKAK. Despite her corporate journey, Quinzel now subscribes to the leanings of the Practical bloc.-á |
Secret Squirrell
Allied Press Intergalactic
10
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Posted - 2013.05.17 14:32:00 -
[25] - Quote
Since I didn't see it mentioned, in addition to production efficiency 5, you pretty much need a well researched blueprint to manufacture ships at a profit.
Also, for many manufacturers, they are sufficiently capitalized that the isk/hour/manufacturing slot metric matters more then the profit margin. |
Milan Nantucket
New Eden Misfits
31
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Posted - 2013.05.17 14:48:00 -
[26] - Quote
Minerals are free if you mine them yourself |
Bugsy VanHalen
Society of lost Souls
626
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Posted - 2013.05.17 14:55:00 -
[27] - Quote
Drachiel wrote:The usual margin on industry is between 10% and 20%
However, the ships have their own (minor) price swings and trends which are independent of mineral prices
The reverse is also true, swings and trends in mineral prices may not affect a given ship without considerable delay
Dominix for example is VERY profitable to build right now and I envy all Domi BPO owners.
Not to mention the mineral market fluctuations not just between values of minerals but location as well. Just because a mineral costs a certain amount to buy in Jita does not mean that is what the ship builder paid for it. Many ship builders get their minerals through buy orders in remote systems with really good mineral supply, these orders can be well below jita prices. Combine that with the waste reduction of not only having production efficiency 5 but also a well researched BPO you can make at least10% profit just on the saved materials.
So if you buy the minerals 5% cheaper, have the skills and researched BPO's to reduce the building requirements by 10%, and sell the ship at a 20% markup it may look like you only have a 5% markup, when really you are making 20%. Many will argue that this 20% is not manufacturing profit, and not all of it is, but profit is profit. if you want to build ships, and you can find cheap minerals, and save costs by researching your BPO's, you are putting more profit in your pocket regardless of where it comes from. |
Skydell
Bad Girl Posse Somethin Awfull Forums
529
|
Posted - 2013.05.17 14:58:00 -
[28] - Quote
Material prices are also inflated to deter competition. All manufacturing in EVE requires a real buyer. There are no vendor sales. Often times making the sale is as much a part of the battle as making a profit. Nobody manufactures from Jita. Something they obtained was put in to the product and they would have a difficult time getting rid of it as a product in itself.
I own several blueprints and I keep stocks of minerals to make those items. I do this as back up for myself. It's a security system for me, a way to replace my own fleets if the need comes up. As long as I can buy them cheaper than I can make them, I will do so but I have the resources to 'take care of my own' if it comes to that. |
Airto TLA
Puppeteers of Doom
36
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Posted - 2013.05.17 15:00:00 -
[29] - Quote
Tauranon wrote:Airto TLA wrote:ONe last issue, is it maybe easier to make a ship and fly it to the local trade hub than it is to haul the minerals to the hub, so you can buy the minerals cheaper locally using buy orders, build ship and fly ship to hub, fly shuttle back. So these people are using 10-20 off of local BUY orders, Rather than HUB Sell orders. Ships get stacked into a freighter and dragged to the hub in bulk. buy orders for minerals at the hub are the same as buy orders for minerals elsewhere but they usually fill faster, and since the freighter is hauling to the hub anyway, hauling the mins back is not an issue - both way loads for a freighter are desirable. Although ships are smaller than their mins, and thus could take less trips, if you do that, you add risk (and you end up with empty freighter trips). In fact my main efficiency issues is that one mineral order won't fill and that one mineral will inevitably not be a highsec mineral. The next biggest efficiency issue is that I own more bpo's than I currently have characters building, and I own some currently unprofitable bpos, so I often have capital tied up in stuff that isn't making me money.
You are assuming a frieghter and a pilot that can fly a freighter, that is not necsessarily automatic, that level of industry requires multiple billions in capital for the buy orders, the freighter, the unsold production inventory, etc. Some people just putter in industry, mine some minerals, refine modules, but a few cheap locally just becasue and a battleship you can already fly which can make the run to the hub for sale is faster for a once or twice a week is faster and less capital intesive than a huge production run and and less tedious than freighter operations. Obviosly this is only relevant in slow turn over markets where a few dozen "hobbyist" can materially impact the volume for sale. |
Mu-Shi Ai
Ai Capital
201
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Posted - 2013.05.17 15:36:00 -
[30] - Quote
Bugsy VanHalen wrote:Not to mention the mineral market fluctuations not just between values of minerals but location as well. Just because a mineral costs a certain amount to buy in Jita does not mean that is what the ship builder paid for it. Many ship builders get their minerals through buy orders in remote systems with really good mineral supply, these orders can be well below jita prices. Combine that with the waste reduction of not only having production efficiency 5 but also a well researched BPO you can make at least10% profit just on the saved materials.
So if you buy the minerals 5% cheaper, have the skills and researched BPO's to reduce the building requirements by 10%, and sell the ship at a 20% markup it may look like you only have a 5% markup, when really you are making 20%. Many will argue that this 20% is not manufacturing profit, and not all of it is, but profit is profit. if you want to build ships, and you can find cheap minerals, and save costs by researching your BPO's, you are putting more profit in your pocket regardless of where it comes from.
Just as minerals you mine yourself aren't free, minerals you manage to purchase for X% less than hub cost aren't worth only what you happened to pay for them. Cost basis doesn't necessarily equal actual value. If ships are trading very near hub mineral price, then the only value you actually CREATE by manufacturing ships with your regionwide-purchased minerals is the difference between the ship sell price and the hub mineral price. The rest of your "profit" would have been covered just by selling your minerals at the hub straightaway, rather than putting all that unnecessary time and effort into building the ships, transporting them, etc. |
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