You're looking at this the wrong way. Blasters aren't supposed to always be good anymore then autocannons or lasers are.

Minmatar are supposed to be able to kite the other races, its what they do.
Amarrians are supposed to be able to outrange the minmatar to cut through their kiting.

Its rock paper scissors

Tweak Grid on gallente boats, and give them a MWD speed boost. Make them SUPER fast in a straight line,

Not as such no.

Blasters just need to be on a different platform GÇö something fast and agile that lets that short range come into play GÇö and they need to have the tracking to support that short range.

Rails are more problematic. They have a niche, but that niche is irrelevant in today's fleet doctrine. Perhaps they should simply be turned into the GÇ£blastersGÇ¥ of the long-range weapon systems: shorter range than the others, but more damage (or at least more DPS).

And yes, there are also issues of fitting space and cap draw and the like, which are especially tricky to get right since two races use these weapons, and they have quite different fitting space layouts (Gallente has more grid to fit armour tanks; Caldari has more CPU to fit shields; hybrids use up a lot of both, but giving both races more of both would make them a bit too versatile).

Rails: I think Rails should have a DPS role like Lasers do, but because of the Pulse Laser Range (up to 80km with T2 ammo on BSes) even using Short Range T2 Ammo in a Railgun is inferior.

At the same time Railguns are Long-Range guns but the really long range is not needed in todays fleets (Especially Rokh Ranges at 350km+ which are not useful at the hardcoded 249km lock range max).

In my opinion the aim should be: For everything above Pulse Laser Range Railguns should have the most DPS.

Blasters: Need more tracking to support their short Range. Other than that: They are not really suited for Work on BSes due to the Speed. that is a Problem, and one that cannot be solved easily. Speeding up Gallente would be weird. Shield Tanking them as well. So I am out of ideas there

Its somethig strange with tracking on blasters an rails allso...
On blasters you have to be inside sweetspot to do damage...
Inside 5k with large blasters you dont hit anything..... outside 25k... no.
Rails variate dps badly from shot to shot... eaven on targets standing still.
So... something is wrong.
Im talking about large gunns here.....

One suggestion I have not seen much of is using the traditional scram/disruptor range bonuses on the Arazu and the Keres to a ship like the Deimos (a la the Adrestia). Deimos with a 30-40km scram would definitely put a stop some of the kiting, and would allow it to get closer more easily.

That would take away the Arazu and Keres jobs though. I would prefer a straight up MWD Speed Bonus, the Blaster Range to reach the edge of Scram and enough power to fit Ions or Nuetrons.

tbh with rails u cant go DPS and u cant go for alpha.. so you have to think what sort of fleet combat niche can be filled with it.

i see them as the longest range (but keep it within 250km plz!) and fastest tracking of all long range weapon systems, but the worst alpha, with better dps than beams. they need to have a high rof.

the interesting addition should be to sensors, like the railgun turret ties itself into the sensor systems of ships and boosts it. so a small bonus per turret to sensor resolution, lock range, and sensor strength.
this would allow it to become the backbone of a fleet type that can swap targets fast and apply damage fast at range to beat logi lock times and pilots broadcast times.

- Make their target range HUGE! Why is it the rokh's guns can out range the tracking computer thingy? (i understand typically bullets go much further than someone's ability to aim IRL, but it's a video game FFS)
- Also, increase the optimal on caldari boats please. Whats the point of trying to kill something when you can barely scratch the paint on it?

Rails are a bit more complicated. Frankly, CCP needs to revisit probing mechanics to allow for the viability of sniper BS once again. Currently, there is no way to engage a hostile fleet with long-range weaponry outside of 150km, because probing is now so near-instant, it takes longer for the BSs to align out than it does for a prober and bubbler to land on the BSs, then they're forced to engage at point-blank range with long-range guns that don't track at close-range, and you die. Changing probing mechanics so that BSs have time to bounce to sniper spots frequently without getting caught is really the only thing that will bring sniper BS back into style. From there, rails would probably only need a slight buff in DPS output and they'd be considered "useful" again.

Personally, I don't think blaster boats should be faster. I think about them as a heavy armored solider equipped with a big shotgun.
Resistances and armor HP should be the real point on which to focus. Gallente hulls should be the slowest and hardest ships in EVE.

You can use a Dictor to set up a block bubble so they cannot warp to you. A block bubble is a bubble somewhere between you and them.

Don't make fast enough it to kill Vagabonds, make it so it can run down and OBLITERATE! Hurricanes, Harbinger's non speed bonused HAC's with overwhelming Blaster DPS.

Blasters just need to be on a different platform GÇö something fast and agile that lets that short range come into play GÇö and they need to have the tracking to support that short range.

The biggest issue with these guys is your ship caps out too quickly. Should be really easy to fit 200s on a Moa (for example), or 250s on a Ferox (for example). Kind of like how it's easy to fit 425mm autocannons on a Minmatar cruiser.

Tweak Grid on gallente boats, and give them a MWD speed boost. Make them SUPER fast in a straight line, but with the agility of a hyperspeed brick. That leaves Minmitar as fast and agile, the rally cars of eve, and gallente the top fuel dragsters...

bump up the damage of blasters to make them be the face meltingly awesome weapons they should be.. Short range, super deeps.

Blasters also fail "because of neuted". Make a deimos as fast as you want, he'll get capped out once he gets within 12 km of a cane.

Maybe dump the free high slot for a mid that fits a Cap Booster.

I don't believe that it's possible to fix blasters without nerfs to other races and weapons.

There are two main areas. Firstly, the absurdity of giving the shortest-range weapons to a slow race, and effective ranged weapons to the fastest race. Clearly the wrong way round.

The second problem relates to the power-creep of recent years. During QR, pulse tracking got boosted. This made Pulse more effective close up - supposedly Gallente's realm. Later, projectiles got boosted. Raw damage got increased, TEs allowed for enhanced tracking and selectable damage increased applied damage. All of these made ACs better in blasters' realm.

So now how do we fix blasters? By following the power-creep model, we could increase their optimal or falloff. This continues the model of homogenising the weapons. But people understandably object to this. Now, you can increase blaster tracking and raw DPS, but the problem is that the ability of Pulse and ACs to deliver very impressive damage at blasters' optimal still remains. The problem is that Pulse and ACs are far too flexible. To really fix blasters - to give them a role that they excel in, where you can't just use another weapon system to good effect - the applied damage of AC and Pulse at close range is going to have to be significantly reduced. This means, say, reducing Pulse tracking and reverting all of the projectile changes, then giving blasters a lot more tracking and maybe a bit more DPS, or giving them more selectable damage types (still limited to kinetic/thermal mixtures though).

The only problem with this idea is that there is precisely zero chance that CCP, in its new self-flagellation mode, will dare to propose such wide-ranging nerfs, however justified they may be. So instead all we will get is some half-arsed changes that either turn blasters into an inferior knockoff of ACs or Pulse, or a superior knockoff that obsoletes one of ACs or Pulse, or just increase blasters' raw damage and tracking that, while helpful, still leaves blasters crippled by a complete lack of flexibility compared to ACs and Pulse.

This, give the ferox a hybrid damage bonus, and make caldari missile ships get damage bonuses for non-kinetic missiles (10% to kinetic, 5% to others is fine with me)



since caldari gunships dont have optimal range ship bonuses

wait...

I'm afraid ccp will just make them like other weapons about the same range about the same tracking and about the same dps.

IMO they should consider just radically increasing the tracking on blasters. Medium blasters have about the same range as small pulse lasers. Why not give them the same tracking. Same goes with large blasters. Give them the tracking medium pulse lasers have.

This would make them a very interesting weapon. They would still have the problems trying to catch ships kiting outside of scram range. But I actually think that is fairly balanced. Its not all that easy to hold a ship yet stay outside of scram range.

The real problem as I see it when you take a ship with medium or larger blasters you might get caught by a smalller ship that orbits tight making it impossible to hit.

Gallente battleships would be able to pop cruisers like balloons but they still woudln't be as strong as Amarr battleships for BS versus BS fleets.

I dunno about that. I do agree that blasters could probably use a small tracking boost, but with all guns getting tracking bonuses (pulse for amarr and increased TE usage due to the falloff bonus for minmatar) small ships will get increasingly useless. A frigate is supposed to be able to get under the guns of a cruiser and a cruiser under the guns of a BS. That's how the game works. It's part of what keeps people from rampaging around solo in large ships and owning entire gangs of smaller ones.

A frigate is supposed to be able to get under the guns of a cruiser and a cruiser under the guns of a BS. That's how the game works. It's part of what keeps people from rampaging around solo in large ships and owning entire gangs of smaller ones.

There are already counters to this including neuts, light/med drones, and webs that are already a pain in the ass to deal with. There are already ships designed to kill the class below them, and they are called destroyers and battlecruisers. You already have an advantage over smaller ships via DPS and tank.

Tweak Grid on gallente boats, and give them a MWD speed boost. Make them SUPER fast in a straight line, but with the agility of a hyperspeed brick. That leaves Minmitar as fast and agile, the rally cars of eve, and gallente the top fuel dragsters...

bump up the damage of blasters to make them be the face meltingly awesome weapons they should be.. Short range, super deeps.

imho, blaster ships should get more drone bonuses to prevent the kiting effect. notice that no one complains about the myrm?

I dunno about that. I do agree that blasters could probably use a small tracking boost, but with all guns getting tracking bonuses (pulse for amarr and increased TE usage due to the falloff bonus for minmatar) small ships will get increasingly useless. A frigate is supposed to be able to get under the guns of a cruiser and a cruiser under the guns of a BS. That's how the game works. It's part of what keeps people from rampaging around solo in large ships and owning entire gangs of smaller ones.

There are already counters to this including neuts, light/med drones, and webs that are already a pain in the ass to deal with. There are already ships designed to kill the class below them, and they are called destroyers and battlecruisers. You already have an advantage over smaller ships via DPS and tank.

Really, they should just make Gallente ships faster. Maybe ALMOST as fast as Minmatar, or keep their current speeds but give them excellent acceleration so that they don't have to waste a lot of time building up speed. They shouldn't be able to catch say, a Vaga/Cyna/SFI but should have reasonable chance (with overheating) to say, catch a shield cane before it gets up to speed on a gate, or simply get in range of other ships before they've taken too much damage.

I think, though it is a ceptor, that the Taranis is a good example of what blaster ships should be like. Before the Dramiel came onto the scene, it was one of the best frigates around, and used blasters. Probably the most used blaster ship. Why? Because it was fast, and could get into range to apply its DPS easily. It also had plenty of structure, almost twice as much as some other ceptors, so it only really needed a DCU for a tank, and thus didn't need to fit plates that slowed it down or shield mods that increased its sig radius. Perhaps other blaster ships should be modeled after the Ranis.

Good speed/agility, but not the best in class - insane DPS for its class, and relying on heavy gank/structure tank to stay alive rather than fitting plates/extenders/reppers, thus allowing blaster ships to maintain their needed speed/agility.

You can use a Dictor to set up a block bubble so they cannot warp to you. A block bubble is a bubble somewhere between you and them.

That it might be not possible to fix hybrids is an idea i had some time ago as well. Most of the proposed changes would turn hybrids either into lasers, but ones that need ammo and has kinetic damage instead of em, or it would turn them into projectiles, but ones that need cap and have fixed damage types. Thats completely pointless.

Also the "don-¦t change hybrids, change the ships" approach. Yeah, just make them able to close in fast, where they still can-¦t hit cr4p without the agility to lessen the tracking problems. Oh, agility too? Great, but if you want to turn the Gallente into Minmatar that badly, why not simply giving them the projectile weapons? Also blasters aren-¦t the only hybrids. And, well, is it just me or is it really a bad idea to close in as fast as possible with rails? If you just want to change the ships you-¦re better finding some buff that makes both blasters and rails useful. Good luck with that.

Also there is no area left that isn-¦t already covered by either lasers or projectiles. One has good alpha, the other good dps; one good optimal, the other good falloff; one uses cap, the other uses ammo; one has instant reload, the other variable damage types; what should a third turret weapon specialize in without either becoming a copy of an existing weapon, become underpowered (for example using both ammo and cap, have both reload time and fixed damage types...) or overpowered (by giving all the advantages and none of the flaws).

Thats the problem with a weapon system that incorporates every existing flaw possible while rejecting every possible advantage. You simply have nothing to work with when it comes to balancing.

If you want to keep hybrids, you practically have to rework all turret weapon systems completely if you want to end up with something where all of them are balanced.

My solution was simpler: give caldari lasers and gallente projectiles (or gallente lasers and caldari projectiles), adjust the ships stats for the use of those weapon systems and get rid of hybrids. Problem solved.

Since some people are suggesting all sorts of crazy things:

It could be argued that the problem is not so much blasters but the ships they are on. I have floated the idea before to mak Gallente ships have the best agility in the game while the minmatar keep their traditional speed advantage but get a slight nurf in terms of agility.

This means that while Gallente ships would not be the fastest, they get to speed the fastest and are more maneuverable then any other race. While Minmatar ships, while the fastest, do not have the structure or the power to really get up to speed or maneuver as well.

just a though.

my previous post regarding the role distinction between Projectiles and Hybrids stands.

It is possible that a satisfactory hybrid rebalance will remain unattainable for CCP. I'll be using blasters as an example, since they're the main point of my concern.


TL;DR - Blaster boats are too slow, and will always remain that way.


Let's go over the flaws of blasters:
-Barely any extra DPS compared to other weapon systems (Can be fixed, of course)
-Terrible range (This is by design, and thus must be kept short)
-Awful tracking for their operational range (Can be fixed)
-Absurd fitting requirements (Simply reduce blaster powergrid requirements, or buff the powergrid of blaster boats)
-Armour tanks and Gallente are slow, and enemies may simply kite them to death

Note the last point. I don't think CCP are willing to change it. I will list several options below, as well as an explanation as to why neither of them are optimal:
-Buff the range of blasters? No. Blasters are designed as close-range weapons, and not even pro-hybrid buff supporters want AC/pulse laser territory trodden on.
-Reduce the penalty of armour tanks? Dangerous! This will affect half, perhaps more, of the ships in EVE! In my opinion, the shield/armour comparative sacrifices are well balanced, and this option will skew it.
-Make Gallente faster! Seems obvious, right? Apparently this cannot happen.... CCP want Minmatar to be the fastest race, because they would like to keep the "racial stereotypes" of EVE intact. IIRC, this was said in the May CSM minutes.

There are several reasons why that last point is particularly insurmountable. If CCP were to make Gallente ever so slightly slower than Minmatar, then the armour tanks will slow down Gallente and the nanos will speed up Minmatar. There will be a large speed difference, and blaster boats will be kited, perhaps even by Cadari ships as well.

In order for Gallente to be able to get into range of all the other shield nano ships, blaster boats will need to be much faster than Minmatar so that once the armour/shield modifications come in, the gap is not as large.

Gallente could shield tank, but then where would the webs go? Furthermore, we'd basically have 2.75 shield tanking races, and then Amarr and a tiny portion of Minmatar
Gallente could receive specific bonuses to reduce the speed penalty of armour, but there are more problems.
If blaster boats all receive a a free bonus, then other ships will be missing out.
If blaster boats have one of their bonuses replaced with an armour penalty reduction bonus, then there is effectively a useless bonus there for the sole purpose of covering the flaws of a ship which shouldn't be there in the first place. Minmatar will get their double damage bonuses, Caldari will get their damage-shield resist bonuses and Amarr will get damage-armour resist bonuses. All of which are useful.

Hybrids and Gallente are incompatible by design.

What about fixing Blaster for better damage/tracking, then increasing the drone bays on all Gall Ships so they can field multiple flights of assorted drones, like scram ( hopefully newly introduced) drones till you get in your own scram/web range, then scoop and deploy damage drones? It seems like for Gall, drones should be just as integral to the ship as anything else.

Back on topic, I keep seeing references to some mystical Gallente ship that ahs web bonuses. Linkage? Last I checked, only minmatar ships get web bonuses.

Talos the new Tier 3 Gallente BC

Talos the new Tier 3 Gallente BC

Vindicator Gallente/Serpentis pirate battleship

Vigilant Gallente/Serpentis pirate faction cruiser

Cala

Actually, the blog doesn't state that the Talos gets a web-bonus. Have you seen any official post state this?

Talos

Battlecruiser Skill Bonus: 5% bonus to Large Hybrid Turret damage and 10% bonus to the velocity factor of stasis webifiers per level.

95% reduction in the powergrid need of Large Hybrid Turrets 50% reduction in the CPU need of Large Hybrid Turrets 50% reduction in the capacitor need of Large Energy Turrets

I agree with the other posters saying the boats need fixed, not necessarily the weapon system. Also, I would like to see a nice buff to Caldari boats.

You are a hard one to please.

We know the stats from pulled test server data.



http://www.reddit.com/r/Eve/comments/lo9it/tornado_oracle_naga_and_talos_tier_3_bcs_stats/

Cala

DRONES are the Gallente main weapon type just as MISSILES are the Caldari's. They both use hybrids as secondary weapons yet you hardly see any talk about how to improve rails - it's all blaster this or blaster that.

I never see anyone talking about my beloved yet entirely useless Rokh.
Rokh looks like an amazing ship and should be, but its useless.

I never see anyone talking about my beloved yet entirely useless Rokh.
Rokh looks like an amazing ship and should be, but its useless.

Ok lets just get rid of that idea.

The problem is the Eagle and Rokh are good at doing things not worth doing: Utterly anemic rail dps at long ranges.

just tested for few hours on sisi..

tl.dr.

-rails are ok; not supermegarockin' but ok.
-blasters are still broken. easier to fit now but the problems with range and rather bad tracking are still there.
tested with deimos, astarte, hyperion, talos...they're all too sloooooow for that weapon class.
fitting plates makes them agile like cotton woll. fitting armor rings really hurts your allready crappy top speed.
using active tank (with hybrids needing less pg and cap u can actually fit active tank now) works to a degree in 1on1 engagements; in small-scale fights youre lost with active tanking most of the time. (using active tank makes cap injectors must-have mods)
i'd say passive tanking bonuses are way better in 80% of cases
-the new nebulae will definetely bring some gfx-glamour to tq..
-the new lightning modes is bit too dark in low/nullsec in my opinion..i could hardly see the texture on my deimos hull..
-dreads, especialy moros/revelation can pretty much hurt subcaps. mwd'ing around in sth bigger than cruiser can make you perfect target/wictim to their turrets. they'll prertty much one-shot you...it ... somehow... doesn't... feel right...

hey i got this crazy idear... try going on SISI and Help us boost them... this time window to fix blasters is open and closing fast so if you have suggestions DL the test server and start playing around!

there are already tons of amazing suggestions. especially ones pertaining to massively buffing hybrid ammo. question is, will they listen?