Hope you choke on the wine.

This kind of tripe is exactly why there will not be peace in the universe. So long as you chauvinistic imperials insist that you are some sort of master race to which the rest of humanity must bow to and service, you will meet with resistance. Many of us would rather die fighting you than live and submit to your vision of "peace".

Many of us would rather die fighting you than live and submit to your vision of "peace".

Then perhaps if left to your own devices, you would at least show the decency to allow your brothers and sisters in the Empire to live with their own version of peace?

I suspect not.

Obviously, you've already decided upon the matter. So this is not even a debatable "Issue" for you. You have narrowed your mind into something that you think you believe in, something you think would be good for you and your family. You limit yourself, and wrap yourself in anger towards something you do not understand.
You continue limiting yourself this way, there will no peace, nor solace for anyone around you.

Narrowmindedness, incarnate.

Narrow minded how, exactly? How is one supposed to interpret the theology and, more importantly, the actions of you imperials? You want to rule over all humanity and remake us into your image. In this regard you're no different from the Sansha. The only thing I've done is closed my ears to your lies. I carry no anger towards your people. Just remain on your side of the border and renounce the "reclaiming" and we can all live happily ever after.

As to you Sepherim, your tune is getting really stale. Blaming the victims of your empire's atrocities for fighting back against you, for not bowing down to you, etc is so last year. Please find a new song and dance. Also, it's very hypocritical to accuse us of exactly what your people have been doing for millennia. Stop crying now that you're reaping the bitter harvest of what you sowed all those years ago. And stop blaming us for feeling the way we do towards your people. You brought this upon yourselves.

We did, and our two empires had over a century of peace. It was the Republic's administration under Shakor that broke that peace, and only then was a new Reclaiming announced by Her Imperial Majesty (and yet despite this announcement, millions of slaves like myself were released, and no real efforts have been made to actually reignite a Reclaiming save the actions by His Highness Merimeth Sarum).

The Republic might certainly place a lot of value on liberty, but after breaking CONCORD treaties not once but twice it is clear they have no respect for peace.

This is a half-truth and you damned well know it. Immediately after Jamyl was crowned she announced a "new reclaiming". The fact that she's not called upon her minions to carry it out is far from renouncing it.

...

Until you understand how injurious those deeds were to us and you renounce the "reclaiming".

Obviously, you've already decided upon the matter. So this is not even a debatable "Issue" for you. You have narrowed your mind into something that you think you believe in, something you think would be good for you and your family. You limit yourself, and wrap yourself in anger towards something you do not understand.
You continue limiting yourself this way, there will no peace, nor solace for anyone around you.

Narrowmindedness, incarnate.

The current war and and the current Reclaiming are on the Republic's hands. The fact is that the Empire was working to maintain peace, and the Republic broke it. Call it a justifiable breach of peace if you will, but it was still a breach of peace.

So long as you chauvinistic imperials insist that you are some sort of master race to which the rest of humanity must bow to and service....

The "current" war, as you like to call it, may well be on the Republic's hands. I see no need to argue that point when there's a bigger issue.

The Reclaiming is purely an Amarrian construct. Being at war and enacting a Reclaiming do not go hand-in-hand. The "current Reclaiming" is on the Empire's hands, not ours. And as long as the Empire continues with its proclamations and attempts at Reclaiming us, there will be no opportunity for peace. So, the continuance of war between us is, actually, on the Empire's hands.

Ball's in your court, dear.

The "current" war, as you like to call it, may well be on the Republic's hands. I see no need to argue that point when there's a bigger issue.

The Reclaiming is purely an Amarrian construct. Being at war and enacting a Reclaiming do not go hand-in-hand. The "current Reclaiming" is on the Empire's hands, not ours. And as long as the Empire continues with its proclamations and attempts at Reclaiming us, there will be no opportunity for peace. So, the continuance of war between us is, actually, on the Empire's hands.

Ball's in your court, dear.

First off, the modern definition of Amarrian is anyone who believes in and practices the Amarr Faith. The Khanid, Ni-Kunni, Ammatar... all Amarrians. If a Civire or Jin-Mei converts to our Faith then we consider them a brother or sister standing beside us before God. The idea of "Race" as you define it is completely irrelevant. I know this is going to sail right over your thick head, but we Amarrians are not a "race" - We are an idea.

If you are looking for someone obsessed with the idea of a "master race" you need only look in the mirror. Bloodline this, tribe that, bow to our wishes or we'll blow you up (and that's how you treat your supposed allies). You don't care about culture, beliefs, or what is in a person's soul - you only care about some obscure notion of genetic kinships and you base your entire society around it. You're inner desires are no secret to anyone: The repression, conquest, and eventual extermination of all any human being who doesn't have enough Matari-brand DNA to be considered "worthy."

You can join a tribe dumbass.

It's a voluntary association.

Yeah I'm sure slavery is a voluntary association.

It is for some; for example, the entire Amarr religion.

Derp?

You, I, and most people alive today were born in an era of peace between the Empire and the Republic. Our nations still have trading stations in each others space. For over a century there was no Reclaiming, as I have said several times now, except for missionary work and limited slave taking where permitted by CONCORD treaties (treaties that had been ratified by the Republic's leadership, by the way).

The proclamation and attempting happened after you broke decades of peace and started a war.

The Empire sought peace. Shakor's Republic sought war.

The Battle of Colelie puts lie to your words. It is rather clear that peace with the Republic is impossible, even for it's own allies, on any other terms than complete submission any time the Republic chooses to make demands in the name of Tribal 'honor' .

Consider yourself ignored. You're making me lose IQ points through osmosis.

No, it really doesn't. First, there had been continued attempts at negotiation with the Federation, all of which failed.

Second, no statement has been made by the Tribal Council as to the exact reasons for the battle at Colelie, so any speculation as to the reason it occurred and whether or not there really was justification is just that, speculation.

And certainly violence is the appropriate response to a dispute with an ally.



The Republic stated the intentions of it's incursion into Federation space quite clearly. Assuming some other hidden justification is pure speculation on your part.

Yeah, peace, aside from the repeated slave raids against us. Of course, your lovely government claims they weren't official and that they're working to eliminate illegal slavers to keep Concord off their back.

And war or not, regardless of who started it, any decision to attempt a Reclaiming against the Minmatar is on the Empire's hands, not ours. War does not equate to Reclaiming.

No, it really doesn't. First, there had been continued attempts at negotiation with the Federation, all of which failed. Second, no statement has been made by the Tribal Council as to the exact reasons for the battle at Colelie, so any speculation as to the reason it occurred and whether or not there really was justification is just that, speculation.

Would you care to show me where they made this statement? I have not seen any official statement from the Tribal Council or Shakor on the matter.

Considering the impressive amount of occurrences of the word "race" in this "discussion" - even "race traitor" - this "discussion" is starting to flirt with ridicule and absurdity.

Races apply for dogs.

Races also apply to humans. Or, are you going to try to say that we're all absolutely physically identical with no distinctive anatomical and/or physiological characteristics? Please...

So what's your point anyway, Farel? Do you have one or do you just enjoy climbing down from your mountain of wisdom every so often to grace us mortals with your presence? If the former, please state your case rather than pontificating. If the latter, well, please just keep your thoughts to yourself.

Oddly enough, I find myself agreeing with Lyn...
There is one human race.
The genetic and morphological variations from one ethnicity to another exists, but are not enough, on a biological standpoint, to talk about "human races".

Though I have to admit I'm amused at the description of Slavery 1.0. By that logic, after Colelie, the Republic are slavers.

Can we have a GalNet rule specifically to cover this? We can call it Shin's Law: "Any debate which goes on long enough will eventually be cast in terms of slavery."

"Do what I say or I will hurt you"

I'm a big fan of consequences.

Races also apply to humans. Or, are you going to try to say that we're all absolutely physically identical with no distinctive anatomical and/or physiological characteristics? Please...

So what's your point anyway, Farel? Do you have one or do you just enjoy climbing down from your mountain of wisdom every so often to grace us mortals with your presence? If the former, please state your case rather than pontificating. If the latter, well, please just keep your thoughts to yourself.

Call it a culture if you want instead of race. Race is just easier to type.

The Federation is free to make their own decisions.

Decisions have consequences.

Like Caldari Prime?

Quite the paradox, humanity is full of them like "fighting for peace" or "enforcing freedom."

At the end of the day ppl do what they think is right, live how they want.

Just don't call yourself "righteous" or I might accidentally have a fit of uncontrollable laughter.

Red velvet cake is a product of slavery since it is made with flour. The bulk of the cluster's grain comes from the Empire. Since anyone who benefits from slavery or doesn't actively oppose it can be considered a slaver, anyone enjoying cake, is a slaver.

Species apply to humans. And subspecies is the word you are looking for if you want to point at physiological differences due to geographical isolation over long periods of time.

Race apply for dogs or plants and every artificially created species and subspecies through repeated and selective interbreeding.

My point is simply that your drivels about race traitors, aside from being completely inaccurate, is ethically obnoxious. Being a traitor to a pug nose, slit eyes, white skin or dark skin sounds pretty ridiculous to me.

Or intellectual laziness.

Slaves are also free to make their own decisions. It might of course be bad for their health.

Like a lot of conflicts and galactic events. But it still fits to your definition of slavery 1.0. I think that definition might be incomplete.

or yours.

My point was made. Doublespeak just twists it into circular logic.

"bu bu anybody can coerce anybody"

You don't say.

"bu bu that's slavery too"

Yeah no, not really.

Matters of state always involve some level of coercion ie "do this or else" but that's govts coercing each other.

Individuals coercing each other is universally shunned. Forced prostitution, human trafficking, slavery, piracy, robbery these are social ills.

If you don't know the difference between political pressure and social diseases, please ask a parent, they'll explain it alot better than I can.

You want to play the pedant and semanticist with me, Farel? You should consult an electronic dictionary first:

Race: noun, 1. A group of persons related by common descent or heredity. 2. A population so related. 4. A group of tribes or people forming an ethnic stock.

By those definitions I indeed used the word correctly and it's you who are spouting drivel and attempting to pass it off as fact.

Do you have any proof of this claim? Because those are ilegal activities and should be reported to the authorities so they can be handled. But then, if you have no proof...

It is true, war doesn't equate to Reclaiming. Amarrian wars against external hostiles usually do. And don't believe that because we name it Reclaiming we can forget that you started it.

I see, so the failure in diplomacy justifies military action, instead of further diplomacy?

I don't completely disagree with this statement, don't take me wrong, I just want to make it clear.

There was proof of Amarrian military involvement in the raid that killed my husband a decade ago. It was presented. The Empire claimed that the soldiers involved were not acting under orders and were not on active duty at the time it occurred, and that it was an isolated incident. That's not the only time Amarrian soldiers have been found involved in these slave raids, however.

This just brings us back to the previous argument we've had, one that's not going to be reconciled until one side or the other wins the war and writes the history books according to their perspective.

As I said at the end of the statement, we can only speculate as to whether or not there was justification for the action. It depends on whether or not there's further information we don't have yet and what that information is, if it exists.

But yes, failure in diplomacy can potentially justify military action, as much as military action can be justified anyway. There's a lot of factors involved in determining that, however.

What does my health has to do with that ? Is that a threat of some kind ?

Slavery isn't some "advantage." It's a weight around your own necks.

This is the purpose of it. Slavery is a responsibility, to educate and uplift the blind and lost. It is not an advantage, it is a duty.

My point is simply that your drivels about race traitors, aside from being completely inaccurate, is ethically obnoxious. Being a traitor to a pug nose, slit eyes, white skin or dark skin sounds pretty ridiculous to me.

Slaves rebel, incidents happen, people die.

Unnecessary friction.

Wasteful, impractical.

When you have a flawed system, you don't need to do anything, it implodes on its own.

Slavery isn't some "advantage." It's a weight around your own necks.

Maybe people, by using race, were actually referring to ethnies and cultures. In that case, even if I still have difficulties to grasp the concept, it can at least present itself in a better light.



Not especially arguing against or for it, but again, what does it have to do with my health ?