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How much better is the new hardware...

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voodoo	Posted - 2005.10.19 10:50:00 - [1] If you had to put a number on how much better this new hardware upgrade, would be what would it be? Like if the current hardware is a 5/10 what would the new hardware be?6/10,7/10/10/10 ect.... off the chart better? is it like going from a 500mhz amd to a 3500+ amd? The Blue Pills Aren't Working Anymore
KIATolon	Posted - 2005.10.19 10:51:00 - [2] extends arms this much
voodoo	Posted - 2005.10.19 10:55:00 - [3] Edited by: voodoo on 19/10/2005 10:56:00 My real question was how much bigger is this hampster? The Blue Pills Aren't Working Anymore
Fornost	Posted - 2005.10.19 11:20:00 - [4] Gozilla sized. Hamzilla.
rig0r	Posted - 2005.10.19 11:21:00 - [5] 1.5 pie.
LWMaverick	Posted - 2005.10.19 11:24:00 - [6] Edited by: LWMaverick on 19/10/2005 11:26:51 I dont think it will have any major impact on performance really... but lets wait and see /Mav If you want peace prepare for war !
Sable Moran	Posted - 2005.10.20 10:04:00 - [7] I somewhat agree with LWMaverick. The new solid state disks will make a really big difference to the access times compared to traditional harddrives but throughput won't increase as much. And the bandwidth will stay the same so if that is allready saturated or nearly so we won't see much of an increase in performance. But any increase we get is good. ----- Sable's Ammo Shop at Alentene 5, Moon 4, Duvolle Laboratories Factory. Ammo at affordable prices.
Soul Dancer	Posted - 2005.10.20 10:07:00 - [8] i think the issue was allocating more than 2 gig of memory at a time
Dark Shikari	Posted - 2005.10.20 10:14:00 - [9] The new equipment is not a solid state disk--its a massive RAMdisk. And considering it does 400,000 random IO/s per second it will completely eliminate the disk bottleneck, forever. - Proud member of the [23]. Don't get the reference in my sig? Click it.
mahhy	Posted - 2005.10.20 10:20:00 - [10] Originally by: Dark Shikari The new equipment is not a solid state disk--its a massive RAMdisk. And the difference being?? The manufacturer even calls it a solid state disk As to how much better it is than spinning disk, well, theoretically "a lot" How much benefit we actually see depends entirely on what CCP is doing with it...
Dark Shikari	Posted - 2005.10.20 10:23:00 - [11] Edited by: Dark Shikari on 20/10/2005 10:25:39 Edited by: Dark Shikari on 20/10/2005 10:23:44 Originally by: mahhy Originally by: Dark Shikari The new equipment is not a solid state disk--its a massive RAMdisk. And the difference being?? The manufacturer even calls it a solid state disk As to how much better it is than spinning disk, well, theoretically "a lot" How much benefit we actually see depends entirely on what CCP is doing with it... I would think that a flash drive would be considered a solid state disk... not RAM. When you put RAM in your computer, do we call them SOLID STATE DISKS? Don't think so... Its only solid state in the sense that it has no moving parts. It requires power to store data (unlike flash). It is still solid state--what I meant is that it was distinct from flash memory and what we usually associate with a solid state drive. - Proud member of the [23]. Don't get the reference in my sig? Click it.
tomma	Posted - 2005.10.20 10:26:00 - [12] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solid_state_disk The term "SSD" is used for two different kinds of products. The first, SSDs based on fast, volatile memory such as SDRAM, are categorized by extremely fast data access (over 250 times faster than the fastest hard drives in 2004) and are used primarily to accelerate applications that would otherwise be held back by the latency of disk drives.
Finix Jaeger	Posted - 2005.10.20 10:27:00 - [13] Dont expect it to cure cancer, create world peace and that crap. -------------------------
mahhy	Posted - 2005.10.20 10:30:00 - [14] Originally by: Dark Shikari I would think that a flash drive would be considered a solid state disk... not RAM. When you put RAM in your computer, do we call them SOLID STATE DISKS? Don't think so... Meh... I think the more generally acceted definition is "no moving parts" which at least the RAM part of it qualifies under. The backup spinning disk array inegrated into it wouldn't... And technically RAM is/can be considered a DISK, as the only reason to _have_ RAM in modern PCs is to execute code "fast". Its just a fast form of disk to copy code to from the slower "storage". If disk were fast enough then execute-in-place would be more common and there'd be none of this artificial separation of storage versus execution location
Matthew	Posted - 2005.10.20 10:32:00 - [15] For the parts it affects, it's going to make a big difference. It's going to mean that anything that needs a lot of database accesses (hangars, markets etc) should be a lot faster. What it won't do is solve all the problems for the overloaded nodes. Don't expect Jita/Rens/etc to get massively better due to the RAMSAN. You can do anything. But you can't do everything.
Expert Newbie	Posted - 2005.10.20 10:33:00 - [16] The RAM you stick on your computer is a temporary cache and is meant to be used as so. The RAM in one of these solid state disk drives is meant to be used as a hard drive, hence why it's called 'solid state', since there's no moving parts. In the same line of thought, pen drives can also be called solid state drives and sometimes are referred to as so. -----
sonofollo	Posted - 2005.10.20 10:33:00 - [17] i think its more to help with hardware performance which might be able to cope with more heavy node activity hence reducing that type of lag. And the database might get a boost as well.
sonofollo	Posted - 2005.10.20 10:41:00 - [18] so it will help CCP write to their servers quicker handling more data at the same time sounds like it will help lag and heavy used nodes
Cardassius	Posted - 2005.10.20 10:43:00 - [19] Originally by: Expert Newbie The RAM you stick on your computer is a temporary cache and is meant to be used as so. The RAM in one of these solid state disk drives is meant to be used as a hard drive, hence why it's called 'solid state', since there's no moving parts. In the same line of thought, pen drives can also be called solid state drives and sometimes are referred to as so. Yup normal (SD/DDR..etc..)RAM cannot store information without powersource. ASCI Recruiting!
Nee'kita	Posted - 2005.10.20 11:03:00 - [20] Oh damn, I hope therese a backup generator to at least make sure those things have juice if the main grid goes down :S Hate to see my character go "Bye bye."
mahhy	Posted - 2005.10.20 11:07:00 - [21] Originally by: Nee'kita Oh damn, I hope therese a backup generator to at least make sure those things have juice if the main grid goes down :S Hate to see my character go "Bye bye." The RamSan itself includes a good amount of batteries as well as online backups to included disk storage, plus I would hope that the hosting center CCP uses is using a decent UPS system, generators etc... we're probably pretty safe
Lord Aradon	Posted - 2005.10.20 11:10:00 - [22] 3 words bye bye lag Free Websites
Don't Panic	Posted - 2005.10.20 11:12:00 - [23] Originally by: Matthew For the parts it affects, it's going to make a big difference. It's going to mean that anything that needs a lot of database accesses (hangars, markets etc) should be a lot faster. What it won't do is solve all the problems for the overloaded nodes. Don't expect Jita/Rens/etc to get massively better due to the RAMSAN. My money is on this prediction.
Lord WarATron	Posted - 2005.10.20 11:14:00 - [24] Originally by: mahhy Originally by: Nee'kita Oh damn, I hope therese a backup generator to at least make sure those things have juice if the main grid goes down :S Hate to see my character go "Bye bye." The RamSan itself includes a good amount of batteries as well as online backups to included disk storage, plus I would hope that the hosting center CCP uses is using a decent UPS system, generators etc... we're probably pretty safe Well, if my memory serves me correctly (no pun intended), when the entire thing powers down, it holds the last state it was in for several years. So I doubt that you would ever have issues like losing your char.
Equinox II	Posted - 2005.10.20 14:25:00 - [25] Originally by: Lord WarATron Originally by: mahhy The RamSan itself includes a good amount of batteries as well as online backups to included disk storage, plus I would hope that the hosting center CCP uses is using a decent UPS system, generators etc... we're probably pretty safe Well, if my memory serves me correctly (no pun intended), when the entire thing powers down, it holds the last state it was in for several years. So I doubt that you would ever have issues like losing your char. Well, what's in the RAM itself will be lost when it powers down, you can't keep things in RAM for several years... However, it got battery backup, and it got a RAID of backup drives which should contain a copy of what's in RAM. When it boots up it probably copies everything from the RAID array into RAM.. and when changes are made to the RAM they are made on the backup RAID too - so you always have a backup on real drives, which will not be lost if the power fails..
Robert Dobbs	Posted - 2005.10.20 21:35:00 - [26] Quote: Well, what's in the RAM itself will be lost when it powers down, you can't keep things in RAM for several years... However, it got battery backup, and it got a RAID of backup drives which should contain a copy of what's in RAM. When it boots up it probably copies everything from the RAID array into RAM.. and when changes are made to the RAM they are made on the backup RAID too - so you always have a backup on real drives, which will not be lost if the power fails.. It's solid state RAM, it will not lose its data if there is no electrical current to hold it in place. It'd be highly impractical to have a device holding that much data which could lose its data so easliy.
SengH	Posted - 2005.10.20 21:40:00 - [27] Its most likely using NVRAM (non volatile ram) doesnt lose its data when it loses power. Theres many different types of Ram besides the one that exists in your computer.
Aitrus	Posted - 2005.10.20 22:17:00 - [28] Edited by: Aitrus on 20/10/2005 22:19:15 Edited by: Aitrus on 20/10/2005 22:17:20 Originally by: Equinox II Well, what's in the RAM itself will be lost when it powers down, you can't keep things in RAM for several years... However, it got battery backup, and it got a RAID of backup drives which should contain a copy of what's in RAM. When it boots up it probably copies everything from the RAID array into RAM.. and when changes are made to the RAM they are made on the backup RAID too - so you always have a backup on real drives, which will not be lost if the power fails.. If you're keeping a solid state drive and a RIAD array in sync, then the whole thing can only work as fast as the RAID array. Wouldn't that completely defeat the purpose of having the solid state disk?
Gilbert Drillerson	Posted - 2005.10.20 22:21:00 - [29] After playing for 30 minutes or so, I would say eve is faster and more responsive... it seems that certain features such as evemail are significantly faster than they used to be. so... based on very little it sure seems CCP got what they paid for :)
Liisa	Posted - 2005.10.20 22:22:00 - [30] I would suggest to many of you to actually read what the manufacturer says about their wonderful memory storage units. There is a link in the news piece which states that all the data in the RAM memory is constantly backuped during operation so that if power is lost around 50-70% of the memory is already backuped on the harddisks. Each unit has a triple UPS (battery) with which the rest of the data in the RAM is then transfered to the harddisks before the unit then powers down.
prsr	Posted - 2005.10.20 22:47:00 - [31] Edited by: prsr on 20/10/2005 22:58:53 Edited by: prsr on 20/10/2005 22:50:03 The main difference is in seek and access times for the database. Total throughput can also go up since the new equipment can handle more read/write transactions faster, although I don't think thats where CCP's bottleneck was. With time (and more subs), thats likely to become the next bottleneck though. With hard drives (where the old db used to get it's data), you're talking about milliseconds to get the bits you need from the hard drive or raid array. To speed this up, most big storage arrays use gobs of cache memory which has roughly the same access times as the memory chips in your pc (and the new ramsan thingy). But, cache being cache, it doesn't always work as efficient as you might want, and in many cases require manual tuning as to what data should be cached and what data shouldn't be cached. Usually this kind of tweaking is quite limited and therefore the advantages of big caches for raid arrays aren't as substantial as you might like. With this ramsan, you're talking about nanoseconds to get the bits you need. Since there are no moving parts in the storage part of the database that the nodes use to read/write their data (there are still disks in this new equipment but solely for backup purposes) there's no time lost moving around diskheads to the correct position. This basically means that unless you are doing really weird stuff, you don't need gobs of inefficient cache memory. Also, read/write action queues are very short since everything is done at rediculous speeds in contrast to slow disks that actually have all kinds of logic in them to queue up actions in such a way that diskheads don't waste too much time going back and forward. Compare it to thousands of people at a stadium trying to get their drinks/food during halftime of a football match, loads of people order stuff and wait, queues get bigger, orders are piling up behind the counter, people try to get ahead in lines, then finally get what they want and try to make it back to their seat. All one big pile of close to uncoordinated chaos. Now enter the ramsan cafeteria in that same stadium, hardly any queues at the counter and loads of people walking in and out at the same time, people order and get what they want as soon as they finish their sentence. Walk away back to their seat and live happily ever after. I'm not good at analogies so it's prolly flawed, still should get the novice an idea what the difference is I hope :) PS. As Matthew already mentioned, it's unlikely that nodes will handle many more players in the same system now, I don't work at CCP but I'd assume that that number is mainly limited by processing power and memory on the individual nodes themselves. Nodes will have shorter queues though since the database is much more responsive and doesn't let nodes wait around to much to get the data they need. PS2. Any engineer that works with big databases that need to handle loads of transactions will sell their mother for one of these toys. Definatly a smart move on the part of CCP.
Dale Cussler	Posted - 2005.10.20 23:13:00 - [32] Edited by: Dale Cussler on 20/10/2005 23:13:27 All I can say is that performance now, as compared to a few weeks ago, is absolutely awesome. Instant market searches, instant market loads, pretty much instant info lookups. I do think it's making a serious difference :D Yay for CCP! And Yay! for shiny new hardware that makes me go "oooh gimme gimme gimme" @prsr: I've just put my mom on eBay... I want one of these RamSan boxes.. if only because .. well.. they're dead sexy. /Dale
Equinox II	Posted - 2005.10.21 08:17:00 - [33] Originally by: Aitrus If you're keeping a solid state drive and a RIAD array in sync, then the whole thing can only work as fast as the RAID array. Wouldn't that completely defeat the purpose of having the solid state disk? Ehm, no.. All the read and writes are done directly to the RAM which is very fast. The raid array is trying to keep up in the background doing it's little backup syncs - it doesn't affect the speed of the RAM (other than reading from it, which might steal a tiny bit of it's bandwidth). If power is lost then it will continue (on battery power) syncing untill it got a complete backup - and then power down or do whatever.. Originally by: Robert Dobbs It's solid state RAM, it will not lose its data if there is no electrical current to hold it in place. It'd be highly impractical to have a device holding that much data which could lose its data so easliy. Originally by: SengH Its most likely using NVRAM (non volatile ram) doesnt lose its data when it loses power. Theres many different types of Ram besides the one that exists in your computer. And regarding the type of RAM... they use normal RAM that needs power to keep it's data, just check their website: "Unlike magnetic disk drives, SDRAM-based disks require power to maintain their data. The solution to this is surprisingly simple: solid state disks includes backup batteries and backup hard disk drives so that any data written to the DDRRAM can be mirrored to or backed-up onto these drives." And isn't NVRAM usually kinda slow (flash memory is nvram(?))? too slow for this type of system?
Chrizto	Posted - 2005.10.21 08:33:00 - [34] No experiences yet? just theory? dull. I noticed an increased speed in: showing assets, copying bms and opening mail. I got a lot of those so it usually took quite a while, unless im imagine all that ;) ---- I've been thinking about a signature for almost a year now... i think i give up :/
Siren Shiva	Posted - 2005.10.21 08:50:00 - [35] Dark Shikari, you scare me. Is there anything you DONT know? Signature graphic removed, please mail us if you would like to know why -Zhuge
sonofollo	Posted - 2005.10.21 08:54:00 - [36] dark shikari knows many things -
prsr	Posted - 2005.10.21 09:02:00 - [37] I bet he doesn't know the amount of isk in Oveurs wallet. (The answer "infinite" is not good enough btw )
SengH	Posted - 2005.10.21 09:10:00 - [38] about the nvram part.. I think your getting it confused with flash ram... ofc i might be wrong as there are so many diff types of ram nowadays heh... sram, dram etc etc. Your right about the ramsan400 using normal dram. OFC it could be faster if they used pure SRAM, although the cost would probably bankrupt CCP if they ordered something custom like that. Oh yeah next step :P put 2 RAMSAN 400s in a large scale RAID 0 array :P (the tera ramsan might be doing that though...)

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